Powerful, feisty, successful ... maybe that's why Dowd can't get a date

[T_i_B]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1635367,00.html

As America's best-known female newspaper columnist, a celebrity in her own right whose attacks on Presidents and their pals are as scything as they are witty, Maureen Dowd makes an unlikely damsel in distress.

But a deeply personal outburst from the 'flame-haired flame-thrower' about her life as a single woman has occupied the US media over the past few days and exposed some deep and unsavoury fractures in American feminist thinking.

The pundit of the New York Times threw her well-manicured hands up in the air last week and declared that today's brainy and powerful women can't get a man because they scare them off. Men, she said, preferred to dumb down when looking for love.

And in the article, headlined 'What's a Modern Girl to Do?', the normally private Dowd, whose former boyfriends include actor Michael Douglas, gave evidence for her theory with anecdotes from her own life.

[BlueIris]

1. Sad. I've been unfortunate and encountered men of the opposite stripe...

I've been "let go" twice because the S.O.s didn't think I was smart or successful enough.

[AZBlue]

74. Obviously they were the ones not smart enough to know what they had!

[RazzleCat]

2. I am getting some of this now

but then I work with "real men". I supervise guys on a construction site. I meet a lot of men interested enough to ask me for my number, but then they come on site and well, its the last I see of them. I don't know if its that I am so loud on site (you can't ask in a quiet and polite manor for the guy to move the back hoe), or if its that I am in charge, all the guys ask my permission, opinion first, all have to check in with me et al. So I am starting to think that it would be ok for the men I meet if I was say the office manager, but as the construction site manager (mens territory), they freak out.

[Dorian Gray]

37. That's so funny, Razzle!

One of my girl friends is also a supervisor on construction sites. Her stories crack me up. (She is already married, however, so she hasn't tried to find dates on site.)

[murielm99]

3. Maybe this problem is personal for her and a few friends,

so she is generalizing.

For older men, it might depend on how they were raised. If they had mothers who worked in the few professions available at the time, like nursing, teaching, or library science, they may value smart and educated women.

I don't think most younger men think the way Dowd believes, though. Many of them are being brought up by mothers with better educations than in the past.

[Thirtieschild]

19. You're right; attitudes depend so much on how they - we - were raised

Case in point. In 1925 my grandfather (born in 1878) quit his job and moved to a college town so my mother could graduate from a larger high school and then go to college. (BTW, he didn't do this for his oldest child, a son who had no interest in education.) When Grandpa was three his mother was widowed and was left with three toddlers. She farmed, bought and sold land, was successful. With a strong mother as an example, he believed in educating his daughter. These attitudes have continued through the generations.

[gauguin57]

44. Blessings on the soul of your Grandpa!

Many blessings! What a wonderful example he set!

[AZBlue]

75. Really?? Do you know where those men are??

I can't seem to find any! LOL

[Divernan]

4. Article has quote of woman disagreeing w/Dowd, calling Rice sexy!

Some woman from the "White House Project" disputes Dowd, noting that with possibilities of both Hillary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice running for president in 2008, this proves women "can be powerful and still be sexy. "

All right! ! ! ! - Are there ANY men in the world, beside that fool Bush, that is to say, REAL men, who consider Condoleeza Rice sexy? For that matter, are there any WOMEN who consider her sexy? I personally think Condoleeza makes a great white shark look warm and welcoming by comparison.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. You are wrong

the men on the right wing blogs thing she is HOT. I am not kidding.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. That in itself says a lot about the men who inhabit the RW blogs. nt

[AZBlue]

76. Yeah, well, they think Ann Coulter's hot too. 'Nuff said.

[sufrommich]

12. Well,

regardless of her political philosophy,she is pretty.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. I actually agree

that she is attractive. I think she maybe should have had some orthodontia done, but she has a certain light in her face that is very pretty.

Now, before I get flamed for complimenting the devil's whore or whatever else she is being called these days, let me make it clear I am talking about her face and not her politics.

[kwassa]

29. Rice can look very good; she is 50, after all

and there are many who post the most unflattering pictures of her possible. She is not an unusually beautiful woman, but beauty is not an important political consideration.

Is it?

Would one consider Barbara Mikulski sexy?

[Swamp Rat]

63. Not "real men," but alien lizards.

:D

[kevinmc]

5. I'd date her if she would remove that........

Restrain Order.

[jedr]

11. Good chuckle on a windy morning in the "burg

:evilgrin:

[Skittles]

6. remember that commercial Don't Hate Me Because I'm Beautiful?

a comic said it best - "We don't hate you because you're beautiful, we hate you because you're a stuck-up bitch." Methinks perhaps Ms. Dowd also reaches the wrong conclusions.

[TahitiNut]

66. Amen.

It seems Ms. Dowd is falling prey to the easy answer - one which requires NOTHING of her and shifts the blame to all males -- or at least those males which she finds attractive.

Sometimes I have to shake my head in wonder at the self-fulfilling aspect of the choices misogynists and misandrists make in their ill-fated relationships.

[merbex]

8. Maureen Dowd often reminds me of Clare Booth Luce before she

married, when she was a successful playwrite.

She wrote that play about those women back in the 30's (no men were in the play)it was also made into a movie.

Very sharp tongue/wit is what probably frightens men off

[sufrommich]

13. I think the movie was called "The Women"

and I watch it whenever it comes on .I love it!

[TreasonousBastard]

70. Dorothy Parker had her problems with men, too...

as did a lot of successful women.

An acid wit doesn't help on a date. For men or women-- funny is good, but biting...

[NashVegas]

9. I Don't Even Make a Show of Trying to Pay for a Restaurant Check Anymore

Two reasons:

1. It often costs women just as much (if not more) to gear up for a date or new romance as it does for a guy to pay for a check, so why not just relax about it?

2. If letting a guy pay for my meal is going to trigger that manly, resource-sharing gene, hell, let it.

[XanaDUer]

10. I'm experiencing the opposite problem

I work in a place with not many "educated" women, but quite a few males. It seems that part of my attraction is that I have greater than a high school education! So I have no idea what is going on.

[Robert Murphy]

14. MMMMMM... "Powerful, Feisty, Successful..."

Being threatened by "Powerful, feisty, successful" women, is the surest sign of an utter wimp. Yet it is misandry to suggest that this is true of all men.

Robert

[GrpCaptMandrake]

15. Considering the inside razor job

that the woman Bartcop calls "MoDo-the-Dragonlady" did to destroy Gore and eviscerate Clinton, her dating woes are less than the dust beneath a Democrat's feet.

But out of all the hooey from her article and her comments to the Guardian, this one stands out the most: "Dowd says: 'It took only a few decades to create a brazen new world where the highest ideal is to acknowlege your inner slut.'"

Great! Just freakin great! MoDo may be all liberated and empowered and Pulitzered (arguably a distant cousin of the kind of slut she's talking about) and so forth, but she's still not above getting snarky about sex. To her, a woman free enough to have sex because she *wants* to is a "slut." I guess she considers her remark somehow "feminist" since she would probably apply the term with egalitarian glee to a man who has sex for fun. You just have to wonder when we'll grow up enough to stop defining people by their genders and how, when, where and why they use their sex organs.

"Hey, look, Ma, we're playing their game!" Isn't this much the same argument put forward by the right to justify its "barefoot-and-pregnant" theory of the failures of feminism? Why, yes! Yes it is!

:banghead:

[Finder]

18. Comprehension seems to be lacking...

if I am comprehending some of the above comments correctly.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

21. In what manner? n/t

[Finder]

25. For one thing your thoughts on MODO...

Her comments are tongue in cheek and she in no way thinks it is a good thing.

[KittyWampus]

34. Ah, But Look How She Uses Her Position. It's Her Ticket To Fancy Dinners

and how she maintains her place with the "In" crowd.

Her columns never come from a centered, principled place, they're all about attempts at appearing clever.

She is all surface with no depth whatsoever. This apparently applies to her work and her personal life as evidenced by her columns.

Take her pathetic columns about her world of wealthy WASP women and their Cipro back when the Anthrax stuff was happening.

[July]

41. I have the same take on her.

She's a legend in her own mind, and she'll never pass up an opportunity to mock someone, particularly if that someone is named "Clinton." I'm always back at the junior-high lunch table when I'm reading one of her thrown-together snarkfests.

[arewenotdemo]

71. Agreed.

[mondo joe]

42. Heaven forbid a person have a "fancy dinner".

And heaven forbid she not be purely political all the time (and on the correct side of politics at that).

[TahitiNut]

67. She's sure as hell no Dorothy Parker, that's for sure.

:shrug: MoDo is clearly 80 years too late for the battles she wants to fight.

[Finder]

69. Sounds like you disagree with the classism rather than her point. n/t

[omega minimo]

38. Too bad the porn people can't ignore the feminist threads

Feminists don't need to badger them for some reason

[Finder]

43. Am I one of the "porn people" you speak of or just a random...

person you chose to annoy?

[omega minimo]

54. OOoops

Great! Just freakin great! MoDo may be all liberated and empowered and Pulitzered (arguably a distant cousin of the kind of slut she's talking about) and so forth, but she's still not above getting snarky about sex. To her, a woman free enough to have sex because she *wants* to is a "slut." I guess she considers her remark somehow "feminist" since she would probably apply the term with egalitarian glee to a man who has sex for fun. You just have to wonder when we'll grow up enough to stop defining people by their genders and how, when, where and why they use their sex organs.
"Hey, look, Ma, we're playing their game!" Isn't this much the same argument put forward by the right to justify its "barefoot-and-pregnant" theory of the failures of feminism? Why, yes! Yes it is!

[Finder]

57. Sorry, Omega, I misunderstood...

I don't know what the poster meant by his interpretation of MODO but I disagree with it.

[omega minimo]

60. Some men fear women's empowerment and attack from that fear

There-- got that out of the way...

Now, about the confusion:

Here we have good examples of different styles of expression via posting. The one you commented on sounds like it makes sense if you already know what he means or hold the same attitudes. Otherwise, it isn't really clear. He didn't use the :sarcasm: but there seems to be some. You point out that MD is partially tongue in cheek. Let freedom (and confusion) rain!!!!!

The answer to your post below is the "he" post I referred to is the stuff BB is bringin over from another exchange. Another hazard of the Internets. That was not about you at all. Sorry. Either is ANY of the following:

A question I asked on that other thread that no one answered was "How "free" is Free Speech if we are not operating with open minds?"

If we bring Attitude to our perception of someone's words, it's easier to misintertpret. If our written words depend on unspoken attitudes to make sense, meaning may not be as clear as we intend.

So, it doesn't hurt to extend the benefit of the doubt (as the "truce" referred to came after "he" wrote "I will take your words at face value" GOOD!) to another's comments-- and try to be clear in our own.

But that is not how DU works unless we choose to practice that. Fine. Is it true that those who perceive the most snark are those dissin it out? :evilgrin:

Those who fear women's power attack women's power in any form, to the confusion and consternation of those who do not assume that women's power automatically threatens ANYONE.

:shrug: :kick:

Like MD. This thread, until I stopped reading it, ended up being about appearance and whether MD was a sanctimonious "bitch" or not. Gawd forbid it be ABOUT HER PROFESSIONAL WORK. Like she was a PERSON or sumthin. Nope, she's a woman, that's all it's about. Oh I know SHE started it. That's right. Pardon me. Would you like some coffee or a nice piece of pie?

:hi:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

65. Wow!

I've never actually seen someone post in Linear A! :evilgrin:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

46. Porn people?

What porn people?

In English, please.

[benburch]

52. Wow...

You are really weird.

I mean that as a compliment.

On a board full of really kinked up and fucked up people like DU, you are the cream floating on the top in your kinkiness and fuckedupedness.

[omega minimo]

55. Since you have a public profile beyond DU

I am surprised you would be so eager to pick fights in such an uninformed and hostile fashion, in addition to breaking DU Rules by dredging something from another thread (which you admitted in PM that you didn't understand) to this one.

You responded aggressively to a post addressed to someone else. I don't feel obligated to explain my meaning to you. Although I did send a PM "This may help" to smooth over your ruffled feathers.

The person who that post was addressed to had made a campaign of misunderstanding and attacking us and dredging Attitude from thread to thread. My message to him indicated that I better understand his sense of persecution and fear comes from. He said he "hopes this is a truce" between us.

No truce is necessary. Whenever he wants to drop Attitude and refrain from personal attacks, there's no problem.

The same goes for you. Please stop now.

[Finder]

58. I think the post was addressed to me...

but I am not a him nor have we had any misunderstandings much less a campaign or PM exchanges before today. Am I losing my mind?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

59. Actually, no, you're not

You offered a criticism of my post, I inquired as to your meaning, you responded, and that strange person leapt in with the foolishness about "porn people."

My apologies. I enjoy spirited debate. Thought we might be onto something until it was degenerated by "whatever optimo."

For my part, my apologies.

But I still think MoDo was wrong for that comment about "sluts." As Bartcop says "she hates everybody," like some sort of snarky Mikey from the old Life Cereal commercial. "Let's introduce him to MoDo. She won't like him. She hates everybody."

:evilgrin:

[Finder]

62. I love debate as well...

I happen to like MoDo and disagree with you as far as what she was trying to say.

I don't think it was only you who understood her column to say what I cannot for the life of me find.

Since I think her point is feminism is fucked up today and women are damned if they do and damned if they don't, the fact there are several threads means she made many think. Thinking is good.lol

[benburch]

61. Dredging something up?

I was referring only to your present posting.

You are weirdness personified.

If you think that is a personal attack, I'm sorry, its not meant that way.

[omega minimo]

64. Feigned innocence redux. Eureka

Yeah right :hi:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

47. What is "it?"

You complained about comprehension and then make some rather incomprehensible statements of your own.

Let me venture out on a limb: you're asserting MoDo's entire column was tongue-in-cheek, as were her comments to the Guardian. I disagree, especially w/ regard to the latter.

I dislike sexual hyprocrisy and repression in both the left and the right.

[Finder]

56. I am totally confused now...n/t

[mongo]

45. self delete

[benburch]

53. Except for schadenfreude, you are correct.

I hope she NEVER gets another date.

Further, I hope her Hitachi Magic Wand shorts out and kills her.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

17. Yes, but on the other hand,

the intelligent women I know would never be attracted to a man who prefers a dumb woman, regardless how good he looks.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

22. Agreed. Any way you slice it,

sooner or later people have to talk, and for an intelligent man OR woman, tedious conversation can take the zippity-doo-dah right out of the sexual aspect. Idiotic prattle is a *huuuuuge* desire killer.

[shrike]

24. Like a former boss of mine once said

"Sooner or later, you've got to talk to them."

[KittyWampus]

36. There's a huge pool of men (& women) who don't ever bother getting

to that point.

Relationships require hard work, don't you know...

[madrchsod]

23. i`d go out with her

but i`m married... i like women that carry a conversation on just about anything..

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. Too true. Half the men on this planet want a sex toy, not a human. nt

[GrpCaptMandrake]

48. The other half

want a sex toy who can be a partner in life, with whom they can converse and laugh and cry and procreate and share and cook and eat and sleep and build and do and make and for whom they, themselves can be a "sex toy." Far better than being a "sex weapon," methinks.

Or not. Maybe it's much simpler.

[knitter4democracy]

27. I never got a date in high school for that reason.

Apparently, I scared the guys somehow. At least, that's what they told me later. I got through half of college without a serious boyfriend for the same reason.

I'll never forget the cute guy sitting down at breakfast early on in freshman year. We hit it off and were chatting and having fun until he asked me what class I was headed to. *sigh* You should've seen his face when I said, "Calculus." He knew I was an English major, so he asked me why I was taking that. I decided to be straight with him (since he was obviously lost by now) and told him about how my dad was requiring that I take up through Calc II or he wouldn't pay for college and that my dad was an engineer at the MSU cyclotron research facility. That guy ran so fast, it was funny. He barely said good-bye.

Thank goodness, I finally got asked out by the hot pre-med major in the drama club. He and I have been quite happy together ever since. ;)

[Missy Vixen]

31. knitter4democracy, you rawk

I am so relieved to read this, and think you have some serious intestinal fortitude for posting it:

>Apparently, I scared the guys somehow. At least, that's what they told me later. I got through half of college without a serious boyfriend for the same reason.<

I had the same problem. I didn't take calculus (math is my worst subject,) but my mother kept telling me that I was scaring the guys off by appearing "too smart", "too assertive," etcetera. Luckily for me, I managed to find a couple of guys over the years who thought these were attractive qualities.

My first date was the senior prom. I didn't get married till I was in my early 30's.

Julie

[knitter4democracy]

35. I didn't say I was good at math.

;)

Dad just made me take it or he wouldn't pay for college, which I needed him to do. Overall, it was a fair trade.

I was lucky that it wasn't my mom saying any of that crap. I went to a small evangelical Christian college, though, so that message was everywhere. Apparently, there weren't many of us girls there for a solid college education. :eyes:

I actually had a couple of guy-friends tell me that they could never see me sexually because I just "wasn't like that," whatever that means. You should've seen their faces when I wore a tight black dress to a fancy play we all attended once. :evilgrin:

Oh, and I never went to my proms. I did anti-prom stuff instead. My first fancy dance was after I was married with my husband's medical school. :blush:

[alarimer]

49. I think I have had a similar problem

I don't know for sure because they didn't actually say "i don't want to go out with you because you are too smart" but I suspect that for some guys here in the town where I live it is an issue that I am pursuing a MS in science. Not for all by any means but occasionally I get the feeling. But I am also at fault- I don't want to date anyone with less than a college degree or at least some college. I specify that in my ads when I use them. So maybe I'm a snob too but sooner or later you do have to talk to them. I live in a blue-collar town (nothing wrong with blue collar workers- I just don't have a lot in common with them).

So maybe in Dowd's circles she has seen these things. Or she's looking in the wrong places.

[NNadir]

28. Actually, Ms Dowd probably has dating problems because she's shallow.

I recall that in 2000 the most important issue in the Presidential campaign in her imagination was Al Gore's suit. However much her rage these days, she did not serve her country well when it was still possible to save it.

She has recently been much better than in the past, but mostly she has reported on how political figures look.

Were I single I would never dream of dating a woman with those kind of values.

[KittyWampus]

39. Thanks for stating my thoughts. Even now, her "analysis" is merely

her attempting to appear clever and snarky.

She'll come up some cultural reference or analogy and then apply it for an entire column... sort of like how SNL turns one funny 30 second joke into a 2 minute unfunny skit.

At least Frank Rich can do same but actually put some substance into it. AT least he's not JUST going for the cheap laugh.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

51. Bingo!

She wore poor Al Gore OUT and helped give us this Chimp in a Pricey Suit. And now has the gall to complain. Pure brass!

[kwassa]

30. Dowd herself claims to get plenty of dates

Massive articles about her in the Washington Post in the past couple of days. I never knew she was a local DC woman.

And she looks so good for 53 that I wonder if she has had some surgical assistance.

I also get the impression, after reading her for a time, that she'll state any point of view if you spend enough time with her. It mostly smacked of self-centeredness and immaturity, IMHO.

[Straight Shooter]

32. I never had a problem getting dates. I refuse to dumb down for anyone.

I seem to attract men who like to talk a lot and open up about what they think and how they're feeling. I'm very opinionated and like a man with strong opinions, too.

I hope MoDo is kidding about why she isn't dating. I would like to see the myth of the "lonely successful woman" discarded once and for all.

Ack, not that I'm successful, at least not in financial terms. But I hold my own in this world, pay my debts and I'm good to my friends. I guess that's a bit of success.

[jane_pippin]

33. Maybe worrying excessively about getting or not getting a date is part of

the problem. :shrug:

[mitchum]

40. Dorothy Pucker has a very high opinion of herself...

I read the NYT piece and found it to be ridiculous

[Gabi Hayes]

50. what a surprise.....the problem isn't her, really....it's.....

MEN! she's over 50. see what Katharine Graham says, which boils down to the fact that men are, well, you know....

President Kennedy's charm was powerful. His intense concentration and gently teasing humor, and his habit of vacuum-cleaning your brain to see what you knew and thought, were irresistible. The Kennedy men were also unabashed chauvinists, as were the great majority of men at the time, including Phil. They liked other bright men, and they liked girls, but they didn't really know how to relate to middle-aged women, in whom they didn't have a whole lot of interest. This attitude made life difficult for middle-aged wives especially, and induced or fed feelings of uncertainty in many of us in those years. Though the men were polite, we somehow knew we had no place in their spectrum. My ever-present terror of being boring often overwhelmed me in social situations with the president and at the White House, particularly whenever I was face to face with the president himself or one of his main advisers, and my fear was a real guarantee of being boring, since it paralyzed and silenced me.

I only felt secure when Phil, whom the president liked, was with me and could do the talking. Douglas Dillon's wife, Phyllis, who I thought was the height of sophistication, confided to me that she felt the same way: she complained that she was always left on the sidelines with Rose Kennedy at parties in Palm Beach.

One notable exception to the chauvinist tradition was Adlai Stevenson. Women enjoyed Adlai. In the end, my mother, my daughter, and I all had close friendships with him. Clayton Fritchey once told me a story that helps explain Adlai's appeal - and that contrasts it with what many of us felt about other men in the Kennedy administration, including the president himself. About three weeks before Kennedy was assassinated, Clayton saw the president in New York, at a time when Adlai was the ambassador to the United Nations and Clayton was his deputy. The three men were together at a party, and Clayton was helping himself to a drink on the balcony overlooking Central Park when the president came up behind him and said, "We haven't had a chance to talk much tonight, but we've got a good subject in common," meaning Adlai. The president then told Clayton he didn't understand the hold Adlai had over women, commenting on how much Jackie liked and admired him and confessing that he himself didn't have the ease with women that Adlai had. "What do you suppose it is?" he asked, adding, "Look, I may not be the best-looking guy out there, but, for God's sake, Adlai's half bald, he's got a paunch, he wears his clothes in a dumpy kind of way. What's he got that I haven't got?"

Clayton's response hit on what I think women saw in Adlai and what they shied away from in other men of that era. "Mr. President, I'm happy to say that for once you have asked me a question I'm prepared to answer, one I can answer truthfully and accurately. While you both love women, Adlai also likes them, and women know the difference. They all respond to a kind of message that comes across from him when he talks to them. He conveys the idea that they are intelligent and worth listening to. He cares about what they're saying and what they've done, and that's really very fetching."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdavisD.htm

the more things change....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. YES! YES! Fellows, listen up!

When I was in graduate school, there was an overweight, somewhat nerdy young man who always had women flocking around him.

My boyfriend and his crowd could not figure out why a guy who looked like the fat kid in the Farside comics always had women wanting to sit with him at lunch.

I tried to explain: this decidedly unhandsome young man genuinely enjoyed talking to women without any ulterior motives, as opposed to the types who talk to women only when they're trying to get them into bed. We can sense the difference.

I've seen this again and again over the years, including in my current circles of friends and acquaintances, the unspectacular-looking guy who never lacks for female companionship, platonic or otherwise. In every case, it's because he genuinely LIKES women, as opposed to just lusting after or needing them.

[SoCalDem]

68. Men have to wait until they are grownups to be "in charge",

and some resent it..

When they are little boys their Mom bosses them around, then all through school . teachers (usually women) boss them around.. By the time they are grown and the testosterone is in "full bloom", they expect to "take over".. (some do...not all)..

There ARE men who have real issues having women bosses..and even though men usually take a back seat at home too, they still secretly enjoy the fact that they can be the "breadwinner" or main supporter, financially..

It's a guy thing, I guess:shrug:

[mmonk]

73. It's easy

Men don't like being lumped together into a stereotypical characature no more than women do. Besides that, I like most of her writings though.