Saturday night's all right for fighting...apparently

[WilliamPitt]

A few days ago, this place was united in happiness after Reid threw down in the Senate. A letter of support for him and his Democratic colleagues here got more than 1,200 signatures. It was great.

A few days later, and we're at war with each other over John Kerry. Again.

I'm not scolding anyone or taking a side.

I'm just bummed. We twist on ourselves so very easily.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I'm not fighting!

But then again, I'm not drinking, either. :D

[Double T]

20. I better start drinking, then I can start fighting

[knowbody0]

2. we should make a rule about Kerry

straight up quotes from HIM from now on.
he said she said he said

IMHO it is too easy to fuck with us.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

3. You're absolutely right, Will

Our ability to divide ourselves may be the right's greatest asset. Where, for the most part, they will stick together (Harriet Miers notwithstanding) we will split on a dare.

Maybe another Will (to-wit: Rogers) had it right: "I do not belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

Kinda sad, really.

[OKDem08]

9. I still maintain respect for Kerry

& feel that he ran a dignified campaign.
I am disappointed more voters were unable to distinguish truth from distortion. Many are now beginning to realize the obvious, though, a yr too late.
Peace.

[lyonn]

49. How many on this site did not vote for Kerry?

Precious few I'm sure. During the primaries we were not afraid to build up our favorite candidate and point out what was wrong with others. Much of this is stimulating and makes one realise how we can agree on the basics of the party but have definite opinions on the candidates. Hey, no lock step here. Slamming and hateful talk is not good tho. This site is not a contest. No doubt we all agree our candidates and representatives Must speak for us and get as inspired as we all seem to be about issues.

[ret5hd]

4. you know as well as i (if not better)...

that well over half of the dissention here is planned and propagated by our enemies.

before i'm accused of wearing tinfoil, how much conspiracy is involved when you go buy gas at the cheapest neighborhood station? my point being, if a groups economic fortunes lie in a particular direction...i think you get my drift.

on edit: who wants to fight about it? You? You? I didnt think so!

[dogman]

5. These things go in cycles.

A little over a year ago we were all united and then a few days later we were bummed. Maybe it's the anniversary.

[seabeyond]

6. well now we have a thread not voting for dem because of war.

screw the children and the poor and the women and the minority of this nation, we stand on morality of opposing the war. so ya, will, there is going to be argument from me on this one too

[Junkdrawer]

7. It's a dashed expectation thing...again...

For about 3 hours Friday we had hope that a Democratic leader just might take away the "election reform = tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist" talking point.

Hell, I was defending Kerry from the pre-emptive "I don't want Kerry's help - he's a quitter" posts when, wham, his office slammed Mark Miller.

It was a bad day.

[FredStembottom]

47. That's where the blame lies

With those that do the disappointing!

We need to process that disappointment each time.

It should spur us to look again and think harder about our leaders.

The flip-side of being thrilled about the behavior of a Conyers or Reid is being angry about disappointing behavior from a Kerry or Clinton.

Keep digging! We will eventually discover why certain Dems can behave boldly and others just shrivel up. With our support and new-found understanding, even the shrinking-violets can be braced up.

Anyone here ever go for counseling? You don't get told that you are wonderful if you're behavior is not! You get your bad behavior pointed right out to you along with new ways to practice behaving the next time you are in a weak position.

Kerry needs to know that he disappoints us and needs to know that Reid has some new ways of behaving that he just might want to check out.

[stepnw1f]

8. STICK TOGETHER PEOPLE!!!!

No more infighting.

[mzmolly]

10. It *is* a bummer. We all want election reform, KRISTE, let's leave it at

that - and get busy!

I'm not trying to take sides personally, I simply think that people tend to have issues communicating at times. My guess is that is what happened frankly. I posed a question about Mr. Miller not to insult HIM, but to ask why we would dig our heels into one side or the other unless we were present at the conversation in question.

[Bluerthanblue]

11. Haven't you noticed this in the world in general lately? seems

like people have grown ruder- more selfish- less tolerant and the saddest part of all, is we somehow seem "proud" of our arrogance.
I don't excuse myself from this flaw either-
Trickle down- as i tell my kids, we can't help but be influenced by those around us- it rubs-off. The only saving grace is having those around us who dare, and CARE enough to point it out, even if that means getting blasted for doing so.

It has been said about the christian fundies that i used to be aligned with- "they eat their own". We all do, if we are honest-
Please call me on it when i do.- THAT is the difference i see between being lost forever, and losing our way momentarily.

thanks for the glimpse in the mirror.

[necso]

12. Myself, I've given up on the bickerers.

Good of you to do otherwise.

Someone has to try to mitigate (all) such pointless, self-defeating outbursts.

[hfojvt]

13. well my sister does look cute

in her ribbons and boots.

Maybe we need a new activist activity, as Ruskin said "you can't argue in a side by side push"

[AmBlue]

37. Yeah.... whatever happened to the

DU Activist Corp "to do" list?? I can't believe there's nothing more we could/should be doing right now.

[salinen]

14. As dems and libs

we are sensitive. And along with being sensitive, our senses are acute. So instead of celebrating victories very long, we find the next battle to bloody ourselves.

[proud patriot]

15. I bring peace

I hope

[MelissaB]

16. I don't think most of us are "fighting", just trying to make sense

of all of this and trying to see how it would play out whichever choice the man makes. Well, that describes me anyway.

17. I still don't understand why Dean went down so fast

and Kerry stepped in. But I am probably changing the subject.

Are you saying we should keep our mouths shut if we don't really like Kerry?

[lyonn]

51. That question has bothered me ever since the

first votes in the primaries. How can such a popular candidate that the polls had shown high number for, have so few votes in that first, was it called the Iowa caucaus, brain dead this p.m., anyway, I was a Dean fan and was dumbfounded. Nothing seemed to make sense and no one has ever given a satisfactory answer. Had Dean gotten the recording of his scream event with the real background noises mixed with his shouting and made an ad out of it he would have shut some of the noise down from the media. Politics is a game that I feel most of us don't have a clue as to the real workings of it. I figure a lot of back room deals going on. But hey, I got over it and desperately wanted whoever came out on top to beat that bast-rd.

54. maybe the republicans decided to take Dean out

first because he was more of a threat than Kerry??? It falls into their behavior pattern of discrediting people. Maybe they had a pow wow on that.

[lyonn]

55. I do seriously agree the repubs were more threatened

by Dean than most other dem candidates, he was too outspoken for them and possibly the public wouldn't believe the repubs insistence that Dean was nuts. Then, my other problem is the dem Washington leaders, whether it was the DNC, Congress, who knows, but I feel that was a big factor. They felt Dean was nuts, just kidding, or unelectable.

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. Not fighting here.

:-)

[H2O Man]

19. We need to count off

by eights, and then be divided in huge fights over how John Kerry feels about the drive to legalize Lonnie Anderson's hair. That is really the most important thing going on now. The only two rules we have to go by are: {1} don't use any quotes from Kerry, and {2} insult other people's beliefs. This is the path to unity and victory.

[bleever]

39. "People, it's a CIRCULAR firing squad. Not elliptical, not oval-shaped,

circular."


Our path to unity and victory.


:7

[carolinalady]

21. I think it shows how raw the wounds still are from last year. n/t

[WiseButAngrySara]

22. I am bummed too. The letter was so wonderful! I wanted you to write

other letters in support of Kerry and Edwards for coming out against the Iraq War, and their seeming apologies for their initial mistakes. Can you imagine how wonderful it must be for politicians to receive a letter of such strong support? It is my opinion that when praise is given for courageous deeds, more will be inclined to participate, like the Liebermans and Hillary's. When the 'story' about Kerry responding to the fraud of election 2004 appeared, I was ecstatic! Again, I wanted you to write a letter for DUers to participate in. Within a few hours of this 'news breaking story' about Kerry, there were immediate retractions.

DU had sponsored an online discussion of the very individual that had 'leaked' the information about Kerry's allegations of 2004 election stealing on the very day that this recent Kerry story came out! Miller is trying to sell a book! I really believe that the DU Community was used by this individual, unwittingly. Did he agree with Stephanie and Skinner to talk about election fraud, about the selling of his new book, or did he intend to speak about his alleged conversation with Kerry, who supposedly told him that 'he believed the election was stolen?'

I didn't read the many links of the online conversation with Mark C. Miller, but if he's any relation at all to the Miller at the NYT's (and not necessarily genetically...Miller's a very common name), then he's a media whore who is trying to sell his book and using DU to promote it.

Why did his online discussion occur on the very same day that this story about Kerry broke? Am I missing something?

I stand with Kerry. IMHO, he is one of the few honorable members in the Senate that we have left. And yes, I might be delusional, but compare him with the lies upon lies upon lies, and deaths upon deaths upon deaths, and profits and scandal, and corruption that is so covered up by the very media that is supposed to protect our democracy, and I think that all of you will agree that Kerry is infinitely better than that corrupt cabal.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

26. I stand with BOTH Kerry and Miller

I thank Mark for writing the book and I thank Mark for wanting to share his conversation. I can understand how easily misunderstandings can happen. There are always three sides to every story, your side, my side and the right side. Mark Crispin Miller is a noteworthy author. I find it difficult to believe he would outright lie about the statements. I do know though, that we all try to extract positives from such conversations. If Mark was just trying to add extra hype from the Kerry "quote or misquote" to his own book, he would have written another article for Harpers or another National magazine with the "quote or misquote." I believe Mark heard the positive and I do believe for one reason or another, Kerry doesn't want his real position known at this time. Not that either are right or wrong, but there is a third side to every story. We haven't heard that third side yet, so lets not put blinders on.

[WiseButAngrySara]

30. Thanks! No blinders. The titles of Miller's books are wonderful,

and although I've not yet read any of them, I'd like to. I do wonder about the timing of his appearance here on DU, and within hours a story appears about his converstion with Kerry, followed by Kerry's denial. It doesn't look like just mere coincidence, but to my jaundiced brain, intentional book hyping.

[Az]

23. It's for a rather basic reason

We have become extremely good at being critical of things. The Bush Clan, the GOP, the DLC, and a host of other things we love to comiserate about. Thing is we haven't really been working on the things we love to promote.

So a moment of glee at the downfall of someone on the right brings us together. But as there is nothing to build on there we are back to complaining rather than building.

Its going to take a lot of positive ideas and a lot of considering to overcome this tendency. We have become very good at complaining over time. Its going to take a similar amount of time to become very good at building.

[Gregorian]

34. You continue to be a beacon for logic.

I don't know how you do it. That's what makes this place so useful.
Their propaganda machine has made our lives very difficult. I think that has a lot to do with it. The frustration is no different than trying to build a house while the neighbor brat lights it on fire.
And some of us are guessing as to why Kerry did/does what he did.
I would suggest we begin to communicate more frequently and completely with our elected representatives. It might bring about some confidence.



The Elton John metaphors are probably more damaging than anything I've seen around here in a long time.

[Robb]

24. YOUR CANDIDATE SUCKS!!

Oh, wait, I thought it was the primaries. :D

[Ron Green]

25. ...and so does your music!

:P

[Robb]

27. ...And your way of making BBQ!!

:silly:

[Marnieworld]

29. I fart in your general direction!

:P

[Marnieworld]

28. We'll all be united again when the next indictment rolls around

You'll see. Can these sleezeballs go this long without an indictment? So many scandals to choose from. Sure we fight between ourselves like any family but we always agree on celebrating Republican indictments. Then it's party party party again.

[rucky]

31. If we can't express our frustration here...

where can we do it?

[mzmolly]

32. BBBBB BENNY AND THE JETSSS.

I just wanted to sing another Elton tune ;)

[blue neen]

41. Love Lies Bleeding, mzmolly, right here on DU!

Sometimes that would be the best way to describe things here! ;)

[justiceischeap]

33. I think the problem is unreal expectations

It seems a lot of people around here have all their hopes wrapped up in Kerry and him some how bringing down the system. He is not the "great white hope," he's just a man trying to do a job. No one can live up to all of our expectations. Kerry can never successfully contend that the election was stolen, just as Gore can't/couldn't. It would be called sour grapes.

We cannot and should not expect for everyone here to agree or even support Kerry—again, unreal expectations. We need to focus on the overall task, which is not thinking Kerry will be the saviour of our party, only we can do that.

[whatever4]

35. Good luck

I recently learned that only Democrats are welcome on the board. They're sure to win, and don't need other party votes. Same old same old.

[gordianot]

36. Old wounds heal slowly.

People are sick and tired of the damn spokesmen and lack of candor. Equivocation and surrogate brains even seems to be not working well for Bush. Do politicians ever speak for themselves? DU goes into shock when one gets a spine. Think Harry Reid and willingness to make a stand.

Qualities that seem to escape John Kerry from time to time.

[ThatsMyBarack]

38. You're right....

....Just check out the "Desparate Housewives" thing I posted on GD. OOPS, BIG mistake!!! I don't exactly remember what possessed me to post that, but man, did I look like a MORAN! :cry:

[skids]

40. Or Thursday night...

...if your an Ohio local RNC official.

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/4/1429/60301

[callady]

42. Conflict is necessary lest a devolution into Groupthink

Groupthink is a term coined by psychologist Irving Janis in 1972 to describe a process by which a group can make bad or irrational decisions. In a groupthink situation, each member of the group attempts to conform his or her opinions to what they believe to be the consensus of the group. In a general sense this seems to be a very rationalistic way to approach the situation. However this results in a situation in which the group ultimately agrees upon an action which each member might individually consider to be unwise (the risky shift).

Janis' original definition of the term was "a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action." The word groupthink was intended to be reminiscent of George Orwell's coinages (such as doublethink and duckspeak) from the fictional language Newspeak, which he portrayed in his novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Groupthink tends to occur on committees and in large organizations. Janis originally studied the Pearl Harbor bombing, the Vietnam War and the Bay of Pigs Invasion. Recently, in 2004, the US Senate Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq blamed groupthink for failures to correctly interpret intelligence relating to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities.<1>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

But the battle over Kerry becomes tedious. He wasn't too much to get excited over to begin either. Our standards and expectations are so low.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. could it be the diversity of this party and the fervent

passion most of us hold about what we believe in along with the 'angry world' attitude that is at the heart of it?

Sheep follow the bell-wether. Dogs are very loyal to their 'alpha' figure- maybe we are more like cats and goats- not bad, but not such blind followers???

Not that that excuses rudeness, intolerance and sarcasm.
Also, people often treat the ones they 'love' (or at least feel connection with) the worst, because they believe they'll be forgiven- which is sad, why do we treat those closest to us with less respect than strangers???

Your question has really made me think.

[JanMichael]

44. Don't be bummed, just be a bum.

It's ok, it's just a message board, shit and other such stuff will happen regardless of what individuals desire.

[sunnystarr]

45. Don't be bummed Will

Personally I believe it's healthy. Debate in a family is usually productive and makes you think. That's a good thing.

An objective retrospective look back brings up memories of disappointment, when I yelling at the TV during the debates. Close the deal, I'd yell. Sure he won the debates, but honestly he didn't have any competition with Bush. He always stopped short ... there were so many things he could have and should have said to really bring it home for the American people. Hell, we all knew them and we expected someone running for President to know more than us. A little of the Paul Hackett spirit would have had us all jumping for joy!

The missteps in Kerry's campaign concerned me. Again I groaned when his centerpiece for the DNC Convention was Vietnam and when Bush was given a pass. The Swiftboaters came on the scene, which I expected he would expect ... after all they knew of Rove in political circles. Sure Kerry listened to his handlers, but they were his pick and I expected better from him. He was running to be leader of the free world so I expected him to be leading his handlers.

I watched him on every C-Span appearance and cheered him on. I, like all of you, so wanted him to win. I made excuses for the things I've mentioned here. But no more.

The Bush campaign knew they didn't have a great candidate. That's why they had so many different ways set up to steal that election. They weren't taking any chances.

Kerry's throwing in the towel so quickly was a slap in the face to his supporters. Understandably he was cutting his losses, didn't want to be a sore loser and wanted to secure a run for '08. But when he slammed on his brakes we all hit that windshield. He owed us more.

We know that Kerry won. We know it was another stolen election. What erupted here for all who supported him was a sign of the leadership we're all hungering for. This is very emotional for most of us. We thought for a little while that if Kerry recognized that he was robbed, that the issue of election fraud would be thrown out there in the MSM for public debate. I believe Kerry made that statement to Miller. When he recanted and burst our elation bubble, it was confirmation to me that he didn't want to lead the effort to reclaim our democracy.

While I'm not one to support him in '08, if he was our candidate I would support him as hopefully and enthusiastically as in '04. But in my heart I know he's know he's not the best candidate to push our "We can do better" campaign forward because I know we can do better.

More importantly, Kerry can do better. He could hold a press conference and announce that he will not run for President in '08. He can hold up the GAO and Conyers reports and say, with these facts it's evident that the '04 election was fixed, stolen. He can announce that his mission is to ensure and restore democracy in the United States of America, for all Americans who have a right to vote and a right to have their vote counted in '08. He can write a book, appear on every talk show. By exposing election fraud and the brazen deliberate disenfranchisement of millions of voters, he can be a patriot who will be honored in history.

I was raised with that wise saying, "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade." Kerry is still caught up in the dream of becoming President. Sometimes God or fate (via a Rove) throws you those lemons. Kerry isn't recognizing that there is something greater than himself that is calling and if he answers that call he will achieve greatness.

Maybe I need to send him some lemonade.

[Laurab]

46. I'm bummed too

I told myself to stay away from DU until it was over, but, alas, I'm weak. Maybe it'll pass by tomorrow, unless someone says something to someone who maybe said something, but then said they didn't say it, or maybe they didn't say it, or maybe they said it but didn't mean to say it......

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH ! ! !

On the other hand, that republican party has been up to SOME shit! I tell you, I read about it in People magazine today - some nice looking young man named Patrick Fitzgerald - who apparently even likes cats, got someone in the * administration in trouble. Rumor has it, even more people might be in trouble - anyone know anything about any of that stuff?

[yowzayowzayowza]

48. Waddaya expect from a ...

herd of catz?

[LynneSin]

50. Come on Will - this is good with the arguments

If we can discuss the issues here including dealing with disagreements then how can we go out in the real world and convince someone why Bush is wrong.

I look at GD/GDP as practice for the real world and I'm encouraged that such diverse discourse is happening here. I wouldn't want to be a part of a online community where everything has to think alike or else. If I did, I'd be a member of the Free Republic

[oblivious]

53. This is very important, hearing and dealing with both sides.

And you're right -- excellent preparation for the real world.

[sandnsea]

52. Tuesday is another election

Some people have to vote on these machines, stand in lines, deal with missing registrations, AGAIN. I did not think about the anxiety connected with that and that it would naturally come out sideways over this comment. I wish I had, I would have been more sympathetic.

[rosesaylavee]

56. Will Rogers sums it up pretty well...

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."

I would like to think that as a party, we can disagree and still come together when we need to.