Are the British better trained in writing and speaking English?

[brentspeak]

I was reading some comments by Prince Charles made during his visit to the White House. He's not the brightest bulb in the universe, but he seems to have the same impressive rhetorical skills and knowledge of diction that the British PMs employ on the floor of Parliament (courtesy of C-Span.) Then there's someone like Christopher Hitchens (who can write beautifully, though the content of what he writes is kind of ugly.)

I still struggle with getting my sentences to properly flow and blend into one another to my satisfaction. In America, we're taught basics in essay writing, but not in writing mechanics itself.

[sweetheart]

1. maybe its the schooling

In british university, i had very little multiple choice testing, and
much more writing essays, much more than in US university... and i have
a feeling that having to explain yourself from first principals is a
basis of the kind of english polish you're intending.

As well, you can't deny the rich linguistic background of welsh, gaellic
and the legacy of these different cultural inputs in to english...so
rather one learns more vocabulary, usable vocabulary, as the population
is kept literate by the BBC which is incredibly potent in its social
education function. (leaving out entirely that the BBc has failed to
report on, or stymie the american imperialism that is rotting britain
out from the core).

As well, the concept of opposition politics, not being an enemy but a
loyal opponent, is not existant in american zero-sum framing. In this
sense, being polite and eloquent is a way to better someone in a friendly
chat without causing them to lose face. Whereas American english has
followed along with the cultural aspects of institutional bullying,
with whole swathes of the dictionary replacing complex words with "fuck".

But hey, when in a degenerate uneducated postimperial dump, why pretend.

[brentspeak]

2. Well, though I believe your assessment of the U.S. as a whole

is a little too harsh (to say the least), you've provided an explanation that I can grasp. And I will agree that our television programming is generally a "degenerate dump."

[sweetheart]

4. Is not as harsh as i've experienced

If we go for a tour of the urban school districts, i'm sure we can find
a school in urban los angeles where the majority of high school
students are illiterate... and then i'm just being realistic.

In a country that respects political economics over truth, there is
little value in packaging it in truthful english, and in that sense,
the entire US establishment is determined to use false english to
frame issues so they don't make sense. In that sense, if you want
to find the reasons for the corruption of language, look no further:
http://www.cyberjournal.org/cj/rkm/ND/mar96NWODoublespeak.shtml

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. Harsh?

:freak:

[MsTryska]

3. Well I think class also has something to do with it.....

because i know some english working class folk who can barely write, and use "fuck" far more creatively than any american i've ever known...

but something about the schooling certainly leaves even the less "educated" and "polished" Brits far more verbally adept than their american counterparts.

[malaise]

7. Essay writing

does make the difference.

[omega minimo]

23. You said the magic word:

"Vocabulary"

My impression is that Brits have a different grasp and usage of the meaning of words. Perhaps they have learnt more to choose from. Brits and Scots often are precise, concise, decisive. Galloway's explosive presence before the Senate committee is an example of the power of focused clarity.

"...so rather one learns more vocabulary, usable vocabulary, as the population is kept literate by the BBC which is incredibly potent in its social education function."

The love of language and "gift of gab" in the culture and the blood comes into play as well. Those who have the "gift" or the "curse" may have read that last bit as-- erm, irony. Don't think there is a smilie for "tongue in cheek."

Don't know if the UK has seen the demise of reading as America has-- people who don't read are, well, illiterate.

The following could well stand as a commentary on the level of discourse at DU. Recurrent struggles with bullying that diminishes interest and credibility and now the jig is up:

"As well, the concept of opposition politics, not being an enemy but a loyal opponent, is not existant in american zero-sum framing. In this sense, being polite and eloquent is a way to better someone in a friendly chat without causing them to lose face. Whereas American english has followed along with the cultural aspects of institutional bullying, with whole swathes of the dictionary replacing complex words with "fuck"."

Although I would never call DU "a degenerate uneducated postimperial dump."

:hi:

edit for SCOTS!

[sweetheart]

24. it flowed well

I would not call DU a "degenerate uneducated postimperial dump",
but i would call the senate that, the white house that, and the
supreme court that, all inner city schools, sadly, that... a
society deprived of its information common, to no fault of any
individual, starves for eloquent conversation.

I can recall deep conversations on wall street. "That fucking fuck
is fucked." "He's mutherfucked that motherfucker." But they daren't
call him a cu*t, because that would be bad language. ;-)

The problem with american dissonance and stereotypes, is that there
is always an exception. And whilst i consider millions of urban
ghettos and the violence, racism and institutioanl ignorance that
pervades the underclass, an educated elite can put up a good show
on speaking english. But then speech is an art of the common,
and as long as someone is shouting, "fuck you", it drowns out
the wisdom that we are cut from the same cloth.

Ok, so the US has enlightened brillian english speakers as well,
just too few on the ground to keep the culture from extremely
immature behaviour, really sad. Its like Ph.D celebrity death match,
where we pit 2 professors in a battle to the death, to prove who is
the smartest of the two of them. Nevermind that they are both
professors in Art history. :-)

:hi:

[omega minimo]

25. Comprehension is key-- not a degree

A PhD. is no guarantee of enlightenment. In fact, a doctorate hobbles the ordained with the neurotic need to prove superiority.

Eloquent was Eliza before the Doctor elocuted her.

B-)

[sweetheart]

28. The rain in spain

falls mainly in my brain.

Yet i've met a few of those profoundly wise and intelligent professors
in some universities, emanating a radience of intelligence, that the
students around them come alive with inspiration. But alas, i'm
not young anymore to go to university and hang with the smartypants
class.

I do find, that if you want a university to teach the art of
writing poetry, it is best to explore who it is who wants to know
and why. What exactly will be different when the unknown is known?
Or is it surrendering "knowing" entirely for a charade of appearances
in which the only truth is the lucid purity of ones service to
beloved lord krishna.

Sadly it must be faced, that universities have been ditched for
training schools for economic preparation. And would that a school
stand for truth and knowledge, they become a threat to all the culture
that stands for otherwise, and socrates school is smashed, leaving
lowly plato with the cleanup.

[omega minimo]

29. ...falls mainly on the ethereal plane

Those "loyal opponents" pursuing "lucid purity" rather than "economic preparation" discover "who wants to know and why" and smash the antiquated school for something older and bolder.

:bounce:

(Plato-- he that Scots feller on the Simpsons?)

[Jose Diablo]

5. I wouldn't say they are better at language skills

Look how they spell "Labour". Even the nitwits here in the colonies know it's spelled "Labor". Then when they are confronted with this lingual crime, they fall back on some 'authoritative' book like the Oxford Dictionary. Like sure, the Oxford Dictionary is the "authority" on spelling.

Well the Readers Digest Websters Dictionary is good enough for me and it says, and I quote: "Labor". See there is no "u" in Labor.
The dictionary does mention "Labour" as the British "variant". So there you have it, the British are the "variants" not we, here in the colonies.

Next thing you know they will be taxing our tea from India.

[kiki]

8. Ah,

go stick an "eggplant" (aubergine) up your "ass" (arse) with some "aluminum" (aluminium). On the "sidewalk" (pavement). :)

They don't call it "the Queen's English" because Freddy Mercury spoke it, old bean.

[Jose Diablo]

12. Well, Freddy Mercury and the Queens was always welcome here

But those other guys, the guys with mop hair, I'm sorry to say I didn't care for them all that much. Singing about "Yellow Submarines" and someone named Penny Lane, I much preferred George Thorogood, a Delaware boy. As homegrown as they come singing very soothing American music. But the women, they did like the mop-haired boys.

I don't know, you mentioned Freddy Mercury, and then there is Mick, they are very good musicians, British too.

And of course there is William Blake, he was English, but he almost seems American in how he wrote. So I guess the British are OK, even if they have problems with spelling simple words.

[LSdemocrat]

6. They just value good English more that Americans do

The British generally expect their leaders to be well-spoken, while too many Americans seem to prefer plain-spoken people rather than well-spoken.

[-..__...]

9. "What do I need to learn english for? I'm never going to England".

..... Homer Simpson

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. He went to Public school, Eaton to be specific

before you correct me public schools in the UK are our private schools and private schoosl are our public schools.

Eaton is one of the top schools in the UK. If you are in the ruling class, you will get an eaton education.

Now go down to East London and have a talk with the lcoals. The Hackney English is hard to understand at times.

[brentspeak]

11. Is it the accent?

Or just different vocabulary and usage? I know that some Scots can be notoriously hard to comprehend due to their brogue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Both, accent and language usage

[kiki]

14. Lol, "The Hackney English"

Sorry, couldn't help laughing. I keep imagining a (sorry again) sterotypical American tourist walking up and saying "Hey, I hear you guys speak The Hackney English!"

You're 'avin' a bubble barf, me old china.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. RLOL

Good think I was not drinking coffee!

[mr blur]

16. Sorry to be pedantic,

but that's "Eton"

It is indeed one of the most expensive schools in the UK but some royals have come out of it still too dumb to get into university without their family connections.

The Duke of Wellington once said that “the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton”, which I take to mean that competitive sports were/are high on the agenda.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. To be even more pedantic, he went to Gordonstoun, not Eton

Gordonstoun is a school in Scotland that concentrates more on outdoor activity than 'book learning' (which Eton does take seriously, especially for its high achievers. It does love sports too, though). Prince Phillip went there, and loved it; he sent his sons there and Chalres and Edward, at least, hated it. Charles sent his sons to Eton.

On the gerneal subject of whether the British are better trained at writing and speaking English than Americans, I would say there's probably not a lot of difference. Charles may sound better than Dubya, but so do most public figures, including many for whom English is a second language (eg the King of Jordan). Even Dubya used to sound better than he does now (if you see video of when he was running for governor of Texas, he sounds quite normal).

Sweetheart pointed out further up that she thinks American education uses multiple choice questions more, and I'd agree with that. British education has public exams at aged 16 and 18, which are what your school achievement is judged on; I think this makes many work harder than the grade system of Americans schools. Against that, about half of British pupils drop out after the age 16 exams; and those that stay on start to get specialised (for instance, I studied maths, physics and chemistry) so some write few essays after that, which means our English skills can get rusty after that. Our motto at university was: "Yesterday I couldn't spell 'engineer' - now I is one". :-)

I can't be bothered to find it now, but I think a recent international comparison found that overall American teenage skills in their own language were average to above average, for industrialised countries (I don't know how they weighed the tests in different languages). It was in science and maths that the USA fell behind.

[brentspeak]

21. I have an inorganic chemistry text

that was written by first-year British graduate students. You would never find that kind of a text written by American graduate students. It gave me the impression that undergraduate-level British students are at the masters-level of American students.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. That's what the specialisation can do

They probably would have studied chemistry for one third of their academic time between 16 and 18 (and quite likely maths and physics in the remainder - it's a common combination to take - which would help with university-level chemistry), and then just chemistry for 3 years as an undergraduate. Against that, their general education won't be as good as an American graduate; and you have to decide what you're really interested in at a far earlier stage than the American system. Get that wrong, and you're a bit screwed.

[malaise]

17. Eton but rest assured that

he didn't write a word on that paper.

[mainer]

18. The Brits are more demanding of grammatical correctness

I remember when Prince Charles gave a speech and said, "If you believe, like I do..."

Boy, did that set off a flap among the Brits about his improper use of "like." (It should have been "AS I do..."

It was all over the UK press that the prince's English was incorrect. Now think of how many times Bush has said something stupid or ungrammatical. The press never calls him on it.

[biggles1]

27. I think that cultural history may have something to do with it too..

..As is the case with us Aussies, Americans represent a 'break' from many of the traditions of Mother England. Perhaps this is reflected in a diminution of one the values the English hold highly - an adherence to 'good' language. Having said that, there are many fine linguistic 'craftsmen' in your background...two of my favourite writers are Hemingway and Faulkner.

[joe_sixpack]

20. It's really noticable in children

When I lived over there, I always got a kick out of listening to their kids talk. If you compare the language skills of an eight year old Brit and an eight year old American, well let's just say it's surprising. Their vocabulary seems much more developed. Their grammar as well.