Ground zero: wouldn't a memorial park be better than new edifices?

[emad]

Looking at the hideous 'quartz crystal' design for the replacement of the WTC towers reminds me of those cutesy rock arrangements that so-called clairvoyants have on their desks at those 'festival of mind/body/spirit/wallet' psi shows...

The architect's proposed design is said to contain "a number of memorial designs such as a Wedge Of Light" that "allow no shadow to fall on the site between 0846, when the first plane hit the first tower, and 1028, when the second collapsed - and Heroes' Walk".

The UK's BBC News says that:

Mr Libeskind's plans have also been attacked in some quarters as resembling a "God bless America theme park." The New York Times in particular has voiced concerns that the plans are tacky, manipulative and kitsch. But the architect maintained that this was not the view of New York's residents. "Not a single New Yorker has ever said that," he argued.

<snip> from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3181288.stm


For many who lost loved ones, ground zero is 'hallowed ground' and will forever remain the final resting place of those whom they mourn. Surely no commercial building should have precedence over immensity of peoples' suffering?

[Gore1FL]

1. I see both sides

One is a memorial is more important than anything else.

Second is the best memorial is to rebuild.

I am not sure what the best is. In some respects, I think while it is important to remember 9/11, A better dedication to those who died is to "go on" in life -- the best symbolic representation of that is replacing the lost functionality with something similar.

In some respects it is a value question to which there is no right or wrong answer.

[LeahMira]

35. Mixed emotions on this...

In some respects, I think while it is important to remember 9/11, A better dedication to those who died is to "go on" in life -- the best symbolic representation of that is replacing the lost functionality with something similar.

I used to believe that it would be better to turn the site into a memorial simply because the ashes of the dead are part of the very soil there. Since the entire area is really a graveyard, it seemed to me disrespectful to build anything on the site.

Still, a friend who is all for rebuilding a new World Trade Center as quickly as possible changed my thinking. It wouldn't be so much as a statement that "The U.S. is back in business" as it would be a way to erase 9/11 from the collective psyche. Because so many things that this country has done since have been "justified" by 9/11, maybe it is better to NOT always have that hole in the New York skyline to remind people. The ones whose family members died there will never forget, but maybe it's time the rest of the country got over the idea that this country can bully the rest of the world because of what happened on 9/11. If rebuilding on the site can do anything towards that purpose, then rebuild.

I still feel that it's callous, but it's also pretty callous to use 9/11 as it has been used just in the past two years. Maybe that's all we in the U.S. are capable of doing.

[radwriter0555]

37. LOL RIGHT. A PARK isn't PROFITABLE. This is real estate, cash cow,

money being made hand over fist.

Why a corporation build a park when it can make billions of dollars?

[RC]

2. There does needs to be a memorial at Ground Zero.

There should not be any flighty monuments to any over-egoed architects allowed at or near Ground Zero.

3000 people were murdered there because of the failings of this administration.
9/11/01 needs to be properly investigated and the truth made public at this site.

[ColtsFan]

3. Parks don't make money

reason #1

[newyawker99]

11. Hi ColtsFan!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mrbill]

14. does everything have to make money?

[maha]

16. Try living without money for awhile.

It's fairly stressful. I can tell you this from personal experience.

Once again, tens of thousands of New Yorkers lost their jobs on September 11, and a lot of those people are still not working. New York needs commercial activity to resume in that area asap.

[mrbill]

18. money is relative

without money is a definate stress-causer.

i love new york, hope they don't screw up on this deal.

commercial activity or a park and memorial?

in a perfect world.

[maha]

21. All material things are relative

.. including money, buildings, people, and parks. (Warning: I did time in a Zen monastery awhile back and can argue relative and absolute like you wouldn't believe. You don't want to go there with me.).

People who are without jobs and money suffer for it. I don't see the humanity in allowing them to suffer over some romantic notions about not desecrating the dead.

It's not an either/or thing, anyway; everyone wants a memorial.

[emad]

26. Good point. Poverty sucks, but then so does bereavement.

It is relatively easy to put a real estate value on the ground zero acreage - it's in the hundred million bracket, I am sure.

What cannot be quantified is the cost of lives lost in non-money terms.

Maybe Lower Manhattan needs to remember that more than it needs to re assert its own monetary value. Otherwise the 'price' of life is nothing.

I know the site is smaller than Central Park, but I was just thinking that maybe a Lower Manhattan Park would be ultimately more meaningful in human terms than any lucrative land deal with new buildings providing rental space for much needed employment oportunities.

Is it only the very poorest ethnic groups who actually value the burial sites of their loved ones more than their own wealth creation chances? I was thinking of Australia's indigenous Aborigine people who deem all burial sites as 'sacred'.

Who is actually going to speak up for the 'needs of the dead' in their final resting place????

[maha]

28. Do you live and work in Manhattan?

I'm not a native New Yorker, but New York is home now.

First off, there IS a park in lower Manhattan already; Battery Square Park. And you got South Street Seaport close by, which is a fun place to visit.

And nobody is saying that some PART of Ground Zero shouldn't be dedicated to a memorial or a park, or both. But I think just about any Manhattanite will tell you that it's absolutely nuts to make the entire 16-acre area a park or a memorial.

It's not an either-or proposition. The argument, seems to me, is what percentage of the area should be park/memorial and what percentage should be commercial. I don't have a strong opinion on this question. But to say that NO PART of Ground Zero should be restored as commerical space is irrational; it would be terribly damaging to lower Manhattan. Manhattan is a living city, and the space is needed for jobs and businesses.

[Cha]

4. I think Both would be good and not some towering monster,

either! A really Beautiful Memorial intertwined with space for whatever businesses want to go in there.

[tlb]

5. Why even ask ? The decision is already made.

They are building with a memorial incorporated into the complex.

The park idea was debated but that is too large a tract of land to reasonably expect they would leave it green.

[maha]

6. Sounds grand, but

Frankly, for economic reasons Manhattan can't afford to let that much real estate be tied up in something non-commercial. There must be a memorial, but there must be commercial space also. We're talking about several acres of one of the densest cities on the planet, not to mention space that's right next to Wall Street.


I haven't seen any designs that really speak to me. It may be that we're all too emotionally involved to think clearly. Mr Libeskind's plans seem way too overwrought and complicated to me. But I would like to see something reaching above the skyline in lower Manhattan again.

But then there are those who want to rebuild the towers as they were. As tempting as that is, I say, get real -- who you gonna get to work on those top floors? I know I wouldn't be able to go up the escalators and elevators without thinking of what I saw that day.

[LTR]

9. WTC palns

Keep in mind that plans do tend to be tweaked between the planning stages and actual construction.

Meaning, what we see in the plans is not necessaryily what will be built there.

(edited for bad spelling - @#$%@ cheap keyboards!)

[youngred]

7. I think a park or memorials is absolutely necessary

but I also would like to see towers up there at least has high and distinctive as the old. It would be a tribute to those who had died there to see the towers up again, because everyone who sees the new will remember the old.

[RC]

12. They would also be a tempting target.

The damage and fallout bu$h&co has done will take decades to repair.

[LTR]

8. WTC Memorial

I've always thought that the best memorial (and one that many of the victims themselves - althought I couldn't speak for them) is to rebuild the WTC in some form. And show the terrorists that they can't kill the American spirit.

A fitting, low key rememberance to the victims should be there. But I'd hate to see yet another black wall with names on it ala the Vietnam War Memorial. I just think that idea has been played out.

A memorial should not be tacky, and must be low key. But build those towers back taller and mightier than before. That's the ultimate memorial.

[neebob]

10. Of course I understand why

they want to rebuild, but I think it's wrong. From what I've seen, some of the families think it's wrong. I'm trying to imagine what kinds of companies will move in and how their employees will feel about working in a place that is both a burial ground and a target. And without a new administration that will get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan and do the real work of protecting the homeland (much as I dislike that term), it will happen again.

[maha]

15. Not building would wrong New Yorkers.

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but "Ground Zero" spreads over several acres. And tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of people lost employment when that acreage was attacked. New Yorker cannot afford to let that much ground NOT be built on.

So (as an eyewitness to the collapse of the towers) I sympathize with the families of victims, but I sympathize with other New Yorkers as well. While certainly some part of the site should be set aside as a memorial, most of those acres need to be used for commercial purposes for the sake of LIVING New Yorkers.

[neebob]

19. I get that

and I still think it's wrong.

[maha]

20. Why? n/t

[neebob]

24. I already said why

but I'll put a little extra emphasis on my last point about the current administration not doing the real work of protecting the homeland. In order to begin to change my mind about the other stuff I'd have to know things like how much existing office space in the area is vacant, where all the WTC companies that survived went and how they're doing, and which companies are going to move into the new space. And there would still be the families who have never received any remains, who would have to watch business being done over the grave of their loved ones.

I'd rather see a memorial, and if any business is to be done on the site, it should be done by companies that meet specific criteria of social responsibility. I realize that's not very realistic, and I don't live in New York so my opinion doesn't count.

[maha]

31. You aren't real familiar with Manhattan, are you?

It's not that you don't live in New York; I can tell from what you are writing that you have no grasp of what the lower Manhattan area is like, before and after September 11, and what Manhattan needs.

You are looking at an area that's adjacent to the Financial District, so it's not a question of whether empty office buildings will sit there. Believe me, if you build it, businesses will come and fill the space.

Further, Manhattan is one of the densest cities on the planet. It's an island, so it can't grow outward, so instead it grows up. And good office space is always desired. The city can't afford to rope off 16 acres of the Financial District and say it's off limits for commercial building.

That being said, I think everyone wants SOME memorial. There's been a lot of discussion about not building on the footprints of the towers (each building sat on one acre, as I remember). I think it would be great if the eventual design could incorporate that; say, maybe, a four-acre memorial park where the towers and the tower plaza area used to be. The other 8 acres could be commercial space. Would that work for you?

[jumptheshadow]

25. You are absolutely right, of course

What once was a thriving commercial area in NYC is now a pockmarked, ugly wasteland. It's like a wound with an infection that has killed the skin around it. We need to rebuild the commercial space there. Like many neighborhoods in New York, the Ground Zero area will undergo a resurgence once we have brought business back to it again. It may take a while, but it will happen. The violence of 9/11 was as much an attack against our economy as it was against our psyche. Rebuilding Ground Zero brick by brick is a much stronger, more focused response to terrorism than our misadventure in Iraq.

At the same time, the area desperately needs a memorial that will serve as a focal point for the millions of people who make the journey to lower Manhattan to stand at Ground Zero.

On a side note: I own a few pieces of clothing I bought in the WTC mall. They're threadbare now but for some reason I can't throw them out.

[maha]

32. Me too.

I have a watch and some shoes and a jacket I bought in the WTC that I don't want to throw out. The jacket is still in good shape, anyway.

I miss the towers so much. I used to commute through there every morning (not THAT morning, though). In my mind I can still see the whole area the way it was.

[salmonhorse]

13. No...

[Padraig18]

17. I'm not a big fan of cemeteries or memorial parks

The best memorial to the 3000 martyred souls at Ground Zero would be to resolve to pick ourselves up and rebuild; a simple, dignified and appropriate memorial area incorporated into the site in no way dishonors the memory of those who perished.

Life is for the living, and we must go on. The dead are not comforted by our tears, nor do they hear our cries of outrage. Stepping confidently and resolutely into the future is the best 'memorial' they can have.

[maha]

22. I actually love cemetaries and memorial parks, but

... lower Manhattan needs more commercial space.

[salmonhorse]

23. Yeah, sure, so do I...

They can be a great place to drink a six'er, reflect and remember some of them ole boys. Read some headstones. A great source for still blooming 3 & 4 day old flowers already in a trash can. But Osama bin Laden should not be thee impetus as to which or whether they will not or indeed will be.

[theophilus]

27. Dig your head out, America! We can have both and really make a difference

The solution is simple and potentially world changing.......build down! I am not sure what the technicalities
would be, but build down, underground, and spare no expense. If we look to underground development
we can eventually be saving tons and tons on heating and cooling. Sure the technology will need to
be perfected but look at the statement. We can have all the office space we want and it will be
safe and secure, to boot. This applies to areas all over the country/world. New York already goes down
over a mile, I'm told. Use your heads America and start a real estate revolution. There is virtually
no limit to what can be built underground if the geology is amenable.

I live in the Santa Fe area. Hardly any rain. Lots of beautiful desert. Miles of hills. Build down into
the countryside and into the hills. Forget about cooling and heating. No more foreign oil. Why, shoot,
pretty soon we can get off of most petroleum products all together. This is an area just waiting for
development. (I demand my cut, I thought of it!).

Anyway, I know it is not ideal for everywhere but what better goal than to use less energy and to
be safe from hurricanes, tornadoes, and extremists. I know we can never be totally safe from any
of these things but good grief! it is 2003! I want my flying car and my underground city!

[LTR]

30. Isn't a lot of Manhattan built on swampland?

I could be wrong. It seems stable enough to erect some pretty big buildings.

But lack of windows could get pretty depressing.

[maha]

33. NYC is at sea level.

There's only so far down one could go, I believe. And I don't like dark places, either.

[theophilus]

38. Here is a little geology........

Take a look at this link http://www.geotimes.org/nov01/NNwtc.html for some info.
It seems it is mostly built on schist. By carefully doing the job I think they could go down
quite a way, as I say there are electrical and water lines down about a mile in some areas, from
what I have seen. Much of that is rotting away and will be a real joy to "fix".

But my point is that in areas where it is possible, we need to go underground. Looking out a window
is going to be less interesting when the environment is toxic. Why not tough it out with our
plasma viewscreens when we are working and then go out to enjoy some actually healthy
air, etc.?

[maha]

41. As a lifelong depressive

I don't think there's enough Zoloft in the world to keep me going if I had to spend most of the day underground. No way will I abandon living on the surface of the planet. It's my earth, too, and I don't mean to let the terrorists and the polluters to take it without a fight.

On top of which, when you're at sea level on the coast of a major ocean there's this little problem of "water" that would have to be either pumped out or walled out, and flooding (and drowning) would be a constant danger, I would think.

[nostamj]

29. as a new yorker...

I believe that they will have to rebuild and that rebuilding will incorporate a respectful memorial and new commercial space.

try to remember that the site is over 17 ACRES. there's room. I'm not at all sure that a viable 'park' can be built in a 17 acre pit.

and, the majority of family and friends of the victims of 9/11 are much more concerned with ANSWERS than they are with details for the memorial.

if people want to honor and respect the heroes and the victims of that horrible day, they will continue to press for ANSWERS.

my NYC $.02

[maha]

34. An NYC $.02

Costs about $3.27, I suspect. :-)

[FlaGranny]

36. I have never understood

memorials. It's not that I'm against them personally, but just cannot understand the need for them. That said, I'd go on the side of rebuilding the site AND a memorial, because most people seem to need memorials, and the city needs the jobs and revenue.

[George_Bonanza]

39. Maha's right

The WTC area was a huge economic zone, and hundreds of firms lost their HQs and offices when the towers collapsed. I don't think many have found new places, and we all know that Manhattan is not a spacious town. It's be great if they could build a huge park/memorial, but the fact is, it'd be the equivalent of demolished premier business sites and building a park over it. People need their jobs and money.

Personally, I think erecting a new tower is the greatest show of defiance to terrorists.

[noonwitch]

40. It should be made into a garden/park, but it's prime real estate

And this is the United $tate$ of America.

[maha]

42. I don't care for your 'tude.

A majority of the people who lost jobs and businesses on 9/11 were not wealthy. They were waitresses and magazine stand operators. They had little dry cleaning and shoe repair businesses. They did data entry and window washing. And a lot of these people are still out of work, and very few of the poorer people who lost jobs on 9/11 got help from the government. The big grants all went to the big corporations, naturally.

The Big Guys will be OK; they'll be able to relocate. It's the ordinary people of NYC who need that commercial space.

[mikehiggins]

43. A memorial is needed, but so is a symbol

The WTC was attacked because it was a well known symbol of the US, just as the Statue of Liberty is.

If we do not rebuild something at least as massive and grand, and I really hate to use this cliche, then the terrorists will have won in the eyes of the world.

The problem with symbols is that they often are beyond anyone's control. NYC without the WTC is like a boxer who's been kicked in the balls. He has to get up if he wants to win the fight.

We have to fill up that hole in the sky if we want to heal the holes left in our hearts.

It is as simple as that.