Hybrids: Style as statement, or does it matter?

[DeepModem Mom]

LAT: Hybrids don't toot their own horns
On most of the cars, styling downplays the cleaner, greener status. Owners say that's OK.
By Jim Mateja, Chicago Tribune


Those who want to reduce this country's reliance on foreign oil and clean up the air we breathe can purchase hybrids that consume less fuel and produce fewer pollutants.

But unless those motorists acquire a far-out-looking Honda Insight or a slightly odd-looking Toyota Prius, there's no way for others to know of the contribution they are making.

A Ford Escape hybrid simply adds a green leaf to the hatch lid, the Lexus RX 400h hybrid puts an "h" next to the name badge, and only special instrument panel gauges and badging let folks know the Honda Civic and Accord hybrids are different.

Is such labeling understated advocacy or stylistic indifference? Consumers don't seem to care.

"I was concerned that gas was $1.80 a gallon when I bought my Civic hybrid in 2003 and probably was going to go up," said Sue Geiger, a retired hospital administrator...."I wasn't concerned about flashy and, in fact, bought the Civic because the Prius looked different and a little odd," she said....

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-hybrids2nov02,0,2634509.story?coll=la-home-highway1

[phantom power]

1. Why do people think the Prius and Insight look so different?

I think they look pretty much like any other compact car on the road. I generally don't give them a second glance.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. You are joking, or you dont really have any distinctions about car styling

(not meant as an insult)

[phantom power]

5. I guess I'm not very sensitive to it. There are certainly differences,

but to my perception, the Prius and Insight fall far short of looking "odd," especially to the extent that somebody would actually feel self-conscious driving one.

I chalk it up to that peculiar American relationship to our cars. As a society, it seems (to me) we are 10 times more sensitive to the style/class/status aspects of automobiles as we are to more practical considerations like fuel efficiency, reliability and mileage.

[noahmijo]

2. I'm actually eyeballing the new H civic and the prius

Probably going to eventually get one of those.

Even if gas prices go down it'd be nice to have a car that gets nearly 50mpg and never needs an emissions test.

Ethanol vehicles are still far off imo.

[Strelnikov_]

7. "Ethanol Vehicles Are Still Far Off"

Why?

My understanding is that all it takes is a sensor and programming in the ECU, adding about $120 to the (factory produced) cost, to enable E85.

In my opinion, this capability should be standard on all fuel efficient gassers. Over the 12 year life of new cars today, that E85 capability may be needed.

Why only fuel efficient gassers? Because I feel that most cars sold today that get less than 20 mpg will be scrapped due to high fuel costs long before the vehicle wears out.

[noahmijo]

9. Ethanol Vehicles Are Still Far Off

We could have it in gear TODAY if we wanted to. I believe Ford is actually rumored to working on production of the first Ethanol vehicles for consumers sometimes in the near future (5+ years if we're lucky) but as of right now it's still distant.

Believe me if you have ever read my earlier posts nobody wants to be rid of dependence on oil foreign or domestic more than I do. I long for the day when we have reproducable energy (i.e. vegetable oil maybe?) as a means of energy and can pull our troops out of the middle east the ENTIRE middle east as in we don't pimp our soldiers out for the protection of Saudi Arabia anymore.

[lectrobyte]

10. Ford has been selling flexible fueled vehicles for some time now, I think

they can run on up to 50% ethanol if I am remembering correctly.

Edit: I am misremembering. This article on the 2003 Ranger when it came out states:

http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?Vehicle=2003_Ford_Ranger&ReviewID=1252

An optional 3.0-liter ohv V6 is rated 154 horsepower and 180 pounds-feet of torque. Ford offers this engine with flexible fuel capability, meaning it can operate on ethanol, gasoline or any combination of the two fuels in the same tank. This engine is standard on all 4x2 SuperCab models equipped with a five-speed automatic transmission.

[Strelnikov_]

20. Ford, Among Others, Sell E85 Capable Vehicles Now

It is just that they put this capability in the Taurus, Windstar, and full size trucks.

[msongs]

15. seems I've read that ethanol is LESS cost effective than gasoline...

gallon per gallon it is probably better to replace gas with ethanol but seems like what I have read is that ethanol is much more expensive per unit of energy created than is gasoline.

some systems are available that use biomass waste for fuel that might be more economical and environmentally friendly.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Strelnikov_]

22. Corn Ethanol has An EROEI Of 1 (Energy In = Energy Out)

The EROEI~1.8 published takes into account credit for co-products. That is, the remaining food value of the corn after ethanol production, most of which remains.

For me, corn ethanol is viable since most of the energy used to produce the ethanol is process energy at the plant. The source of this energy can be from renewables, such as wind, or waste energy, such as co-generation at a coal fired power plant.

Therefore, I view corn ethanol as an energy carrier, not an energy source. Considering the proven EROEI of corn ethanol is 1, versus 0.2 for hydrogen using the only scalable method for generation known today, ethanol appears to be a much better candidate as a transportation fuel when compared to hydrogen.

My main point is, though, that we will never be able to power the current 20.6 mpg personal transportation vehicle fleet with renewables. PHEV's with an 100 mpg (equivalent) fuel consumption, possible today with a Prius and a 20 mi. battery only range, is in the realm of possibility.

[triguy46]

30. Absolutly on target.

You're just using a fuel that has high inputs, high production costs, high growing cost, high cost to the earth because of fertilizers and herbicides.

I suggest "The Long Emergency" as a good read on this and related topics.

[William769]

4. Why would it matter

Your not out to impress people, you just want to do the right thing.

Thats one of the problems with Americans, always trying to impress the next person.

[skids]

6. Personally I think it's for the better.

Having a "normal" looking car with a hybrid label on it gets people thinking hybrids are "normal" and not some fad.

That said, though I thought my Prius Classic looked odd when I bought it, in fact it was just the new style for a lot of compact cars. If I didn't own one, I'd have a hard time telling it apart from an Echo or Focus without seeing them side-by-side.

The new Prius basically is no more strange looking than the CRX was back in its day.

[cornermouse]

8. I didn't buy it for style.

I bought it for gas mileage and hanging on to my money. As gas inevitably restarts it upward climb, I will be ready. I will not be on a months long waiting list. I will not be desperately trying to get a car with better gas mileage. I will be ready.

[lectrobyte]

11. I keep crunching the numbers, and I just can't see buying one for

gas savings alone. Let's say a Prius gets 50 mpg over its lifetime. Let's say a Corolla get 30 mpg over its lifetime. In 100,000 miles, Prius uses 2000 gallons, Corolla 3333. Given the roughly $8K difference in price, you're not breaking even until gas hits around $6 / gal. That aside, I love my hybrid, the technology makes sense, it pollutes less, and in case of a real gas outage, I can still drive a lot on what I have sitting around for the lawn mower. The traffic jams evacuating in case of a hurricane could also be easier to deal with since the car is turning itself off as much as possible.

[cornermouse]

14. Well, let's just say that when the crunch does come and it will,

I won't be sitting around for a year to 18 months or more waiting and hoping. :) I love mine too and it has the advantage of being better for my health. When I go to the gas station, I no longer hyperventilate and my blood pressure doesn't shoot up. :)

[CabalPowered]

21. That's the same conclusion I came to when I ran the numbers..

but the overriding motivation for myself was to support manufacturers of hybrids. More revenue means more investment in R&D, which means better hybrids later on. Driving a Prius has also lowered my road rage..substantially. :)

[triguy46]

29. The numbers didn't work for me either

the problem is the significantly higher acquisition cost of the hybrids. Plus my 06 Civic gas gets up to 41 mpg. I know there are truer 'greens' out there that will scorn this, but at times you have to act in your best interest, and I'm not gonna take any flak for 34 in town, 41 highway.

[CabalPowered]

31. 34/41 are very respectable numbers..

And for the price, that's a smart buy. I was happy to upgrade from 19/29 in my outback.

[Javaman]

12. I would love to see a diesel hybid, I would buy one in a second.

[CanSocDem]

13. The diesel engine was invented to run on veg.oil....

It's development since has been to make it less efficient and a really good customer of the oil industry.

Large industries are keeping the unique capabilities of the diesel engine out of the public interest, I assume, to maintain their profit levels. Once the public interest trumps corporate profits, I'm sure you'll get your wish.

[bullwinkle428]

16. The standard diesel engine is still very efficient!

Here's a very good article from the Detroit News comparing diesel to hybrid technology:

http://http//www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/26/0auto-361111.htm

Biodiesel refining capacity and retail outlets are spreading quickly throughout the upper Midwest, although it remains to be seen how demand may be met in the future. I have a nearly 4-year-old Honda that I will almost certainly replace with a diesel-powered car when the time comes...

Edited to add that the data shows that hybrids improve fuel efficiency in city driving, but for those who log most of their miles on the highway, the diesel is a considerably better option.

[Javaman]

26. Oh I know it is.

I live in the suburbs and log equal amounts of both highway and city travel. That's why I'm waiting for my dream car, a Hybrid Diesal. :)

[benEzra]

19. Diesels have big trouble meeting U.S. particulate and NOx

I would love to see a diesel hybid, I would buy one in a second.

Diesels have big trouble meeting U.S. passenger-car particulate and NOx emissions standards, which IIRC are the strictest in the world. Europe's standards allow a lot more particulate/NOx emissions from passenger vehicles than ours do, so it's easier to sell diesels there. It can be done (look at the Volkswagen Jetta diesel, for example), it's just expensive.

[bullwinkle428]

24. New (2007) EPA regulations to cut sulfur levels by 97% in diesel fuel:

Sulfur levels, currently allowed at 500 ppm, will be required to be reduced to 15 ppm, a rather significant reduction!

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/diesel.htm

It always seemed strange to me that western Europe is so much more green-conscious than the U.S. has been (especially over the last 5 years), yet much more lenient in terms of particulate/NOx emissions allowed.

[garybeck]

25. not if you burn BIODIESEL

particulate matter, sulfates, CO, and carcinogens are greatly reduced with biodiesel use. NOx is the one stickler... They're still testing biodiesel on this but it doesn't look as good as the others.

here's my "new" biodiesel wheels:

[tammywammy]

27. The problem is

that when manufacturers are getting approval for the diesel engines (meeting EPA requirements) they're using regular dino-diesel fuel. So, in 07 there maybe a less number of passenger diesel vehicles available, if the manufacturers aren't up to standard. It doesn't matter that you run biodiesel or that the potential buyer will run it, if it can't meet the requirements of dino, there's a no go on the engines.

BTW, I own an 06 Volkswagen Beetle TDI (diesel). Love it. :loveya:
I drove a gasser over the weekend, and while a fully loaded 06 Jetta is super super nice, I like my diesel better.

[peacebaby3]

17. I've read that replacing a battery in a hybrid is REALLY expensive.

I've heard anywhere from $1000 up to $8000 to replace the battery depending on the model.

Any hybrid owner here had to replace the battery? Just curious if it is really that expensive.

I've thought of getting a Prius. I really don't care what it looks like as long as it has a CD player, cruise control, 4-door, and gets the good gas mileage. That's why I was looking at the Prius because it seems to be listed with the best gas mileage and has those options.

[Beaverhausen]

18. There is a 7 or 8 year warranty on the batteries

so it isn't like they have to be replaced all the time or anything.

I love my Prius- I've had it since May. Mine has all the options you mentioned (they are all standard I believe.)

[Strelnikov_]

23. Does The Drag Coefficient Matter?

If you are concerned about efficiency, it does.

[triguy46]

28. My 2006 Civic is cool looking and great mileage

Just got back from a 600 mile (one way) to Santa Fe. got 38 mpg going up in altitude, 41 coming down. Averaged 77 mph, its quiet, everything works, fun to drive, and about $5000 less than the civic hybrid.