Pentagon- Complaining soldiers to be disciplined

[Rose Siding]

In the briefing today, Abizaid was asked about the soldiers in the ABC clip that had criticized Rumsfeld- one had suggested he resign. Abi said that they had broken military code and their punishment was up to their local command.

Doesn't it seem that ABC might have realized that there could be consequences for those remarks? Somewhere along the line of getting that vid ready to air, someone would have seen it that understood the ramifications.

I wonder if they mentioned it to the soldiers. Or are the soldiers SO very miserable that they wouldn't have cared. Or did ABC just see a good story at the right time?

I don't like it, but I understand the rule. Sort of. But not getting the truth back to the people in a democracy (of sorts) isn't acceptable either.

[trumad]

1. Ya gotta understand one thing

most of the soldiers over there are weekend warriors who have been away from their families for almost a year.... One way to diminish the strenth of our Army is to fuck em over and that's exactly what is happening... I'd hate to be a re-up Officer in todays Military!

[ewagner]

3. worse yet

I'd hate to be the Officer who has to carry out the order to discipline those troops...........

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Oh there are ways

to get around it....

Wanna bet a letter of instruction and taht is about it?

I am betting on it... I am, oh and those troops are not reuping...

[RapidCreek]

39. BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!!!!

The Limits of Free Speech in the Military:
Can Public Expressions of Discontent by U.S. Troops in Iraq Be Punished?



By DEAN G. FALVY

Thursday, Jun. 19, 2003


<SNIP>

As if the fruitless hunt for weapons of mass destruction and persistent rumors of intelligence manipulation weren't annoying enough, the Pentagon faces a new headache: rumblings of discontent from soldiers in the field.

The putative liberation of Iraq has turned into grinding, dangerous occupation duty - exacting a steady toll in lives and morale. And some disgruntled troops have begun complaining about ambiguous missions and delayed homecomings.

Perhaps the most colorful comment came from Pfc. Matthew C. O'Dell, an infantryman stationed in Iraq. According to The New York Times, O'Dell told a reporter, "You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go home. Tell him to come spend a night in our building."

<SNIP>

On first glance, Private O'Dell might seem to be imperiled by Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It prohibits "Contempt Toward Officials," and it's possible that O'Dell's comments could be read as contemptuous toward Rumsfeld.

But a closer look shows that O'Dell's comments fall outside Article 88, which states:

"Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

Fortunately for O'Dell, he's a private - not a "commissioned officer." He can be thankful for his lack of stripes, because there is no way Article 88 can be applied to him without them.

It turns out that O'Dell was wise in his choice of targets as well. For if he had "behaved with disrespect" toward a superior commissioned or non-commissioned officer - from Gen. Tommy Franks down to his own platoon sergeant,. he could have been subject to court martial under Articles 89 and 91 of the UCMJ. These articles apply to all soldiers, including enlisted men and women. But the civilian officials who are specifically protected from criticism in Article 88, including the Secretary of Defense, are not mentioned in Articles 89 and 91.

<SNIP>

Moreover, it was arguably in Congress's own self-interest to let enlisted personnel speak out. Practically speaking, the grumbling of enlisted personnel can give valuable signals to elected officials about the true course of military campaigns, which may otherwise be filtered out by overly optimistic generals. Congress is more powerful when it can contrast optimistic assessments such as Rumsfeld's with on-the-ground complaints like O'Dell's.

<SNIP>

Abizaids assertion that a non-coms verbalized criticism of Rumsfeld is punishable under the UCMJ is nothing more than pure unadulterated bullshit and he goddamn well knows it. It is one more slap in the face to our military, one more lie, and one more attempt by this administration to terrorize Americans into docile servitude.

Odd don't you think, that the "liberal media" failed to nail his ass to the shit house wall after this utterance. I would surmise they never will either. We woudn't want to many dog faces calling a spade a spade, while they're working as security gaurds for Kellog Browne and Root.

Rapid Creek

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Factoid

Re-up are WAY DOWN, I know... personally.

Factoid, Enlistment numbers are way down.

If the Bush team wins reelection, you will see a Draft, if they do not win reelection it will take years to build trust in the insitution and to rebuild the military.

The people getting out are senior NCOs and mid-grade officers, aka the backbone.

[atreides1]

13. UCMJ Action could be taken but will it?

The soldiers that were interviewed were from the 3rd ID, not weekend warriors. And the General said it was up to their command to take care of any disciplinary action.

I wouldn't bet on to much happening to the troops, seeing as to how they live like animals and the higher command staff don't. The lower chain of command know what's going on, and I hope they don't come down hard on these men. But just like Vietnam, there is always the chance that some higher up could get fragged.

[Bozola]

2. Sniping civilians is acceptible behavious, but truth isn't?

It's ok to kill civilians, bomb Canadians, torture prisoners, and violate the Geneva Convention, but don't you hurt Rummy The Scummy's feelings!

[Terwilliger]

4. Maybe the soldiers should throw down their guns and go home

like they all DEFINITELY know they should do now that their commander in chief is in disgrace.

[karlschneider]

9. Not easy to go home without a seat on a plane, but I'll volunteer to fly

one to bring 'em back if somebody will pay for the gas...I can't afford it myself. ;-(

[alfredo]

48. some may just go native,

disappearing into the outback. I have seen it happen when I was wearing olive drab.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

6. Abizaid should place his head firmly between his legs

and kiss his own ass.

What an asshole - him and Rumsfeld probably go beat up kids in the park on Sundays for fun.

[Hotdiggitydog]

8. They will beat those soldiers...

...until their morale improves.

[karlschneider]

10. Grin...that was one of my favorite taglines from the old Fido net.....are

you a denizen of that moribund apparatus?
:D

Drat. On edit: Welcome to DU!
:bounce:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. How sadly true!

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Hotdiggitydog]

17. Thanks!

I've been lurking on and off for several months, but finally decided to register. I've been much more enthusiastic about stopping by lately, especially since the shrub is finally being taken to task for his deceitful ways by the media.

[calimary]

41. Welcome to DU!

A great place, and an increasingly great cause (to liberate us from the bushistas!

[treefrogjohn]

12. What if they gave a war and nobody came?

It may be time to bring this slogan back. If no one wants to re-up and no one wants to volunteer, then what. Bring back the draft? That would really piss off the country.

[calimary]

42. Truly! And welcome to DU!

They're bringing lots of things back. I see a number of bumper stickers out there now - the peace sign along with the words "Back by Popular Demand."

Also, at one of the rallies, I saw a protest sign that resurrected the "War is unhealthy for children and other living things." THAT was cool!

And so are you, "new" arrivals! Glad to have you on board.

[mlawson]

14. The soldiers probably knew what they were saying.

But they probably didn't give a shit, and I can understand that. Mentally exhausted, physically miserable, worried about their families and their own lives, frustrated at the constant reversal of orders, disillusionment over WHY they are there in the first place, all takes its toll. They suddenly had to chance to spout off ON THE AIR, and they took it. I doubt if anything serious comes of it, so far as discipline goes. Even they have 1st Amendment rights, I assume...

[Rose Siding]

18. I hope you're right...

It tugged at me for a minute thinking how much they've gone through, that they realize the lunatics are in charge and then got played by ABC.

I attibuted more naivte than apt, I hope.

[arcane1]

21. exactly, what is the military brass gonna do to them now?

that could possibly be worse than what they are already going through??

[mlawson]

25. The soldiers have to avoid anything that could bring serious charges,

such as laying down their weapons and walking away. That could be desertion. You know the punishment for that.

But many may be to the point at which being slammed in the brig would sound inviting, and a whole lot safer.

[Rose Siding]

26. "You know the punishment for that"

You have to live on a pig farm?

[calimary]

43. Yeah, and you get to be president some day.

If they stopped and thought about it, there'd probably be quite a few desertions. After all, the Commandeer-in-chief has proven that it's completely okay!

[oneighty]

32. Desertion in war

can get the death penalty. But since Bush* declared the war over?

I do not think critcizing Rummy is a serious offence.

Being critical of Bush* would be.

180

[RapidCreek]

46. No it wouldn't

Not if the person being critical was a non-com. See post 39.

RC

[RetroLounge]

36. Exactly! What are they gonna do?

Send them to Iraq?

[peace4all]

23. I don't know what will happen to them

but a close friend of mine spent a lot of time in the brig for anti-war activities in Nam and he has absolutely NO regrets. I salute these soldiers.
bring them home.

[Eloriel]

44. You're probably right

After all, if some of them are actually saying, "Just shoot me so I can go home," and apparently meaning it, what's a little "discipline" for the pleasure of getting to speak your mind? Maybe they're even hoping for a dishonorable discharge.

Eloriel

[Frances]

15. What happened to Support Our Troops?

sarcasm

But seriously I handed out literature for Democrats in the last two elections. I remember a black officer from Virginia telling me how good the Republicans were. I didn't argue with him because I knew he'd find out for himself sooner or later. I guess he's found out now.

[Frances]

16. You asked are the soldiers so miserable that they don't care

if they are disciplined. If 5 have really killed themselves, I would say yes they are.

[MrPrax]

19. I feel sorry for a lot of them

Thought I read somewhere--sorry can't find it--that a few too many are facing bankruptcy upon their return...
I can see why their angry that their 'commander and chief' has slowly stripped away even 'honor' of the war...
Sad

[Bandit]

20. Some Article Fifteens are worth bragging about

For those non-military types an Article Fifteen is a form of punishment that falls short of going to court or in other words a court marshal. It usually has a punishment of a fine and confinement to barracks or some such. Not too severe but still a pain in the ass. Sometimes it is "Just Plain Worth It" The message gets out and no one really gets hurt.

[Mari333]

22. These soldiers cant complain anymore.

Abizaid can ROT IN HELL.


DEATHS:

July 8 Sgt. 1st Class Craig Boling, 38, Elkhart, Ind., died in Iraq. Boling died after collapsing while eating dinner with his unit

July 7 Jeffrey Wershow, 22, of Gainesville, Fla., killed by enemy fire at Baghdad University


Sgt. David B. Parson, 30, Kannapolis, N.C., was killed on July 6 in Baghdad, Iraq. Parson was conducting a raid on a house when he was shot and killed.


Spc. Chad L. Keith, 21, Batesville, Ind., was killed on July 7 in Baghdad, Iraq. Keith was on mounted patrol when his vehicle drove past an object that exploded on the side of the road.

July 4
Pfc. Edward J. Herrgott, 20, of Shakopee, Minn., died on July 3 in Baghdad, Iraq. Herrgott died from a gunshot wound while on patrol.

July 3
Pfc. Corey L. Small, 20, of East Berlin, Pa. died on July 3 in Iraq. Small died from a non-combat related cause.


Cpl. Travis J. Bradachnall, 21, of Multnomah County, Ore. died on July 2 in Iraq. Bradachnall was killed in an explosion during a mine clearing operation near the city of Karbala.


Sgt. Jonathan W. Lambert, 28, of Newsite, Miss., died June 1 at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, Germany, as a result of injuries he suffered when his HMMWV rolled over on May 26 in Iraq.

July 2
1st Sgt. Christopher D. Coffin, 51, of Bethlehem, Pa, died on July 1 on Highway 8 in Iraq. Coffin's vehicle ran into a ditch while trying to avoid a civilian vehicle.

June 30
Spc. Kelvin E. Feliciano Gutierrez, 21, of Anasco, Puerto Rico, was killed on June 28 in Orgun-E, Afghanistan. Gutierrez was a .50 caliber gunner on a vehicle that was returning from patrol when it veered off the road and turned over. Gutierrez suffered fatal injuries while trapped under the vehicle.


Cpl. Tomas Sotelo Jr., 20, of Houston, Texas, was killed on June 27 in Baghdad, Iraq. Sotelo was traveling in a convoy when a rocket propelled grenade struck his vehicle.


Sgt. Timothy M. Conneway, 22, of Enterprise, Ala., was injured on June 26 in Baghdad, Iraq and he later died of wounds on June 28. Conneway was traveling in a government vehicle when an explosive device detonated and struck the vehicle.

June 26
Army Spc. Richard P. Orengo, 32, Toa Alta, Puerto Rico, enemy fire

June 25
Army Spc. Andrew F. Chris, 25, California, combat
Army Spc. Cory A. Hubbell, 20, Urbana, Ill., breathing difficulties
Marine Lance Cpl. Gregory E. MacDonald, 29, Washington, D.C., vehicle accident
Army Pfc. Kevin Ott, 27, Columbus, Ohio
Army Sgt. 1st Class Gladimir Phillippe, 37, Roselle, N.J.

June 24
Army Spc. Cedric L. Lennon, 32, West Blocton, Ala., non-combat-related

June 22
Army Spc. Orenthial J. Smith, 21, Allendale, S.C., enemy fire

June 19
Army Spc. Paul T. Nakamura, 21, Santa Fe Springs, Calif., enemy fire

June 18
Army Pfc. Michael R. Deuel, 21, Nemo, S.D., enemy fire
Army Pfc. Robert L. Frantz, 19, San Antonio, grenade attack
Army Staff Sgt. William T. Latham, 29, Kingman, Ariz., hit by shrapnel as U.S. soldiers blew open door with grenade

June 17
Army Sgt. Michael L. Tosto, 24, Apex, N.C., illness

June 16
Army Pvt. Shawn D. Pahnke, 25, Shelbyville, Ind., sniper fire
Army Spc. Joseph D. Suell, 24, Lufkin, Texas, non-combat related

June 15
Marine Pfc. Ryan R. Cox, 19, Derby, Kan., non-combat weapon discharge

June 13
Army Staff Sgt. Andrew R. Pokorny, 30, Naperville, Ill., vehicle accident

June 12
Army Spc. John K. Klinesmith Jr., 25, Stockbridge, Ga., body was discovered at lake where he had been wading

June 10
Army Pfc. Gavin L. Neighbor, 20, Somerset, Ohio, enemy fire

June 8
Army Sgt. Michael E. Dooley, 23, Pulaski, Va., checkpoint shooting

June 7
Army Pvt. Jesse M. Halling, 19, Indianapolis, enemy fire

June 6
Navy Petty Officer Third Class Doyle W. Bollinger, Jr., 21, Poteau, Okla., accidental ordnance explosion
Army Sgt. Travis Lee Burkhardt, 26, Edina, Mo., vehicle accident

June 5
Army Pfc. Branden F. Oberleitner, 20, Worthington, Ohio, enemy fire

June 3
Army Sgt. Atanasio Haro Marin Jr., 27, Baldwin Park, Calif., enemy fire

June 1
Marine Sgt. Jonathan W. Lambert, 28, New Site, Miss., vehicle accident

May 30
Army Spc. Michael T. Gleason, 25, Warren, Pa., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Kyle A. Griffin, 20, Emerson, N.J., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Zachariah W. Long, 20, Milton, Pa., vehicle accident

May 28
Army Staff Sgt. Kenneth R. Bradley, 39, Utica, Miss., heart attack
Army Spc. Jose Amancio Perez III, 22, San Diego, Texas, convoy ambush

May 27
Army Sgt. Thomas F. Broomhead, 34, Canon City, Colo., checkpoint shooting
Army Staff Sgt. Michael B. Quinn, 37, Tampa, Fla., checkpoint shooting

May 26
Army Sgt. Keman L. Mitchell, 24, Hilliard, Fla., drowning
Army Pvt. Kenneth A. Nalley, 19, Hamburg, Iowa, vehicle accident
Army Military Police Sgt. Brett J. Petriken, 30, Flint, Mich., vehicle accident
Army Maj. Mathew E. Schram, 36, Brookfield, Wis., convoy ambushed
Army Pfc. Jeremiah D. Smith, 25, Odessa, Mo., ordnance explosion

May 25
Army Pvt. David Evans Jr., 18, Buffalo, N.Y., munitions dump explosion

May 21
Army Spc. Nathaniel A. Caldwell, 27, Omaha, Neb., vehicle accident

May 19
Army Lt. Col. Dominic R. Baragona, 42, Niles, Ohio, vehicle accident
Marine Capt. Andrew David La Mont, 31, Eureka, Calif., helicopter crash
Marine Lance Cpl. Jason William Moore, 21, San Marcos, Calif., helicopter crash
Marine 1st Lt. Timothy Louis Ryan, 30, Aurora, Ill., helicopter crash
Marine Sgt. Kirk Allen Straseskie, 23, Beaver Dam, Wis., drowning
Marine Staff Sgt. Aaron Dean White, 27, Shawnee, Okla., helicopter crash

May 18
Marine Cpl. Douglas Jose Marencoreyes, 28, Chino, Calif., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Rasheed Sahib, 22, New York, accidental weapon discharge

May 16
Army Spec. David T. Nutt, 32, Blackshear, Ga., vehicle accident
Army Master Sgt. William L. Payne, 46, Otsego, Mich., ordnance explosion.

May 13
Air Force Staff Sgt. Patrick L. Griffin Jr., 31, Elgin, S.C., convoy was ambushed
Marine Lance Cpl. Nicholas Brian Kleiboeker, 19, Irvington, Ill., explosion

May 12
Marine Lance Cpl. Jakub H. Kowalik, 21, Schaumburg, Ill., handling unexploded ordnance that detonated
Marine Pfc. Jose Francisco Gonzalez Rodriguez, 19, Norwalk, Calif., handling unexploded ordnance that detonated

May 10
Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew R. Smith, 20, Anderson, Ind., vehicle accident in Kuwait

May 9
Marine Lance Cpl. Cedric E. Bruns, 22, Vancouver, Wash., vehicle accident in Kuwait
Army Cpl. Richard P. Carl, 26, King Hill, Idaho, helicopter crash
Army Chief Warrant Officer Hans N. Gukeisen, 31, Lead, S.D., helicopter crash
Army Chief Warrant Officer Brian K. Van Dusen, 39, Columbus Ohio, helicopter crash

May 8
Army Pfc. Marlin T. Rockhold, 23, Hamilton, Ohio, sniper

May 4
Army Pvt. Jason L. Deibler, 20, Coeburn, Va., non-combat weapon discharge.

May 3
Army Sgt. Sean C. Reynolds, 25, East Lansing, Mich., weapon accident

May 1
Army Pfc. Jesse A. Givens, 34, Springfield, Mo., tank accident

April 28
Army 1st Sgt. Joe J. Garza, 43, Robstown, Texas, vehicle accident

April 25
Army 1st Lt. Osbaldo Orozco, 26, Delano, Calif., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Narson B. Sullivan, 21, North Brunswick, N.J., non-combat weapon discharge.

April 24:
Army Sgt. Troy D. Jenkins, 25, Repton, Ala., cluster bomb explosion

April 22:
Marine Chief Warrant Officer Andrew T. Arnold, 30, Spring, Texas., grenade launcher accident
Army Spc. Roy R. Buckley, 24, Portage, Ind., fall from a military truck
Marine Chief Warrant Officer Robert W. Channell Jr., 36, Tuscaloosa, Ala., grenade launcher accident.
Marine Lance Cpl. Alan D. Lam, 19, Snow Camp, N.C., grenade launcher accident

April 17:
Army Cpl. John T. Rivero, 23, Gainesville, Fla., vehicle accident

April 14:
Army Pfc. John E. Brown, 21, Troy, Ala., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Thomas Arthur Foley III, 23, Dresden, Tenn., accidental grenade explosion
Marine Cpl. Armando Ariel Gonzalez, 25, Hialeah, Fla., vehicle accident
Army Spc. Richard A. Goward, 32, Midland, Mich., vehicle accident
Army Pfc. Joseph P. Mayek, 20, Rock Springs, Wyo., accidental weapons discharge
Marine Cpl. Jason David Mileo, 20, Centreville, Md., friendly fire

April 13:
Army Spc. Gil Mercado, 25, Paterson, N.J., non-combat weapon discharge

April 12:
Marine Cpl. Jesus A. Gonzalez, 22, Indio, Calif., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. David Edward Owens Jr., 20, Winchester, Va., combat.

April 11:
Marine Staff Sgt. Riayan A. Tejeda, 26, New York, combat

April 10:
Marine Gunnery Sgt. Jeffrey E. Bohr, 39, Ossian, Iowa, combat
Army Staff Sgt. Terry W. Hemingway, 39, Willingboro, N.J., combat

April 8:
Army Cpl. Henry L. Brown, 22, Natchez, Miss. combat
Marine Pfc. Juan Guadalupe Garza Jr., 20, Temperance, Mich., combat
Army Sgt. 1st Class John W. Marshall, 50, Los Angeles, combat
Army Pfc. Jason M. Meyer, 23, Howell, Mich., combat
Air Force Staff Sgt. Scott D. Sather, 29, Clio, Mich., combat
Army Staff Sgt. Robert A. Stever, 36, Pendleton, Ore., combat

April 7:
Marine Lance Cpl. Andrew Julian Aviles, 18, Tampa, Fla., combat
Air Force Capt. Eric B. Das, 30, Amarillo, Texas, combat
Army Staff Sgt. Lincoln D. Hollinsaid, 27, Malden, Ill., combat
Army 2nd Lt. Jeffrey J. Kaylor, 24, Clifton, Va., combat
Marine Cpl. Jesus Martin Antonio Medellin, 21, Fort Worth, Texas, combat
Army Pfc. Anthony S. Miller, 19, San Antonio, combat
Army Spc. George A. Mitchell, 35, Rawlings, Md., combat
Air Force Maj. William R. Watkins III, 37, Danville, Va., combat

April 6:
Army Pfc. Gregory P. Huxley Jr., 19, Forestport, N.Y., combat
Army Pvt. Kelley S. Prewitt, 24, Birmingham, Ala., combat.

April 5:
Army Staff Sgt. Stevon A. Booker, 34, Apollo, Pa., combat
Army Spc. Larry K. Brown, 22, Jackson, Miss., combat
Marine 1st Sgt. Edward Smith, 38, Chicago, combat

April 4:
Army Capt. Tristan N. Aitken, 31, State College, Pa., combat
Army Pfc. Wilfred D. Bellard, 20, Lake Charles, La., vehicle fell into ravine
Army Spc. Daniel Francis J. Cunningham, 33, Lewiston, Maine, vehicle fell into ravine
Marine Capt. Travis A. Ford, 30, Ogallala, Neb., helicopter crash
Marine Cpl. Bernard G. Gooden, 22, Mount Vernon, N.Y., combat
Army Pvt. Devon D. Jones, 19, San Diego, vehicle fell into ravine
Marine 1st Lt. Brian M. McPhillips, 25, Pembroke, Mass., combat
Marine Sgt. Duane R. Rios, 25, Griffith, Ind., combat.
Marine Capt. Benjamin W. Sammis, 29, Rehoboth, Mass., helicopter crash
Army Sgt. 1st Class Paul R. Smith, 33, Tampa, Fla., combat

April 3:
Marine Pfc. Chad E. Bales, 20, Coahoma, Texas, non-hostile accident
Army Staff Sgt. Wilbert Davis, 40, Hinesville, Ga., vehicle accident
Marine Cpl. Mark A. Evnin, 21, South Burlington, Vt., combat
Army Capt. Edward J. Korn, 31, Savannah, Ga., combat
Army Staff Sgt. Nino D. Livaudais, 23, Ogden, Utah, combat
Army Spc. Ryan P. Long, 21, Seaford, Del., combat
Army Spc. Donald S. Oaks Jr., 20, Harborcreek, Pa., combat
Army Sgt. 1st Class Randall S. Rehn, 36, Longmont, Colo., combat
Army Capt. Russell B. Rippetoe, 27, Arvada, Colo., combat
Army Sgt. Todd J. Robbins, 33, Hart, Mich., combat
Marine Cpl. Erik H. Silva, 23, Holtville, Calif., combat

April 2:
Army Capt. James F. Adamouski, 29, Springfield, Va., helicopter crash
Marine Lance Cpl. Brian E. Anderson, 26, Durham, N.C., non-hostile accident
Army Spc. Mathew G. Boule, 22, Dracut, Mass., helicopter crash
Army Master Sgt. George A. Fernandez, 36, El Paso, Texas, gunshot wound
Marine Pfc. Christian D. Gurtner, 19, Ohio City, Ohio, non-combat weapons discharge
Army Chief Warrant Officer Erik A. Halvorsen, 40, Bennington, Vt., helicopter crash.
Army Chief Warrant Officer Scott Jamar, 32, Granbury, Texas, helicopter crash
Army Sgt. Michael F. Pedersen, 26, Flint, Mich., helicopter crash
Army Chief Warrant Officer Eric A. Smith, 42, Rochester, N.Y., helicopter crash
Navy Lt. Nathan D. White, 30, Mesa, Ariz., F/A-18C Hornet lost over Iraq

April 1:
Army Sgt. Jacob L. Butler, 24, Wellsville, Kan., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Joseph B. Maglione, 22, Lansdale, Pa., non-combat weapon discharge

March 31:
Army Spc. William A. Jeffries, 39, Evansville, Ind., illness
Army Spc. Brandon J. Rowe, 20, Roscoe, Ill., combat

March 30:
Marine Capt. Aaron J. Contreras, 31, Sherwood, Ore., helicopter crash
Marine Sgt. Michael V. Lalush, 23, Troutville, Va., helicopter crash
Marine Sgt. Brian D. McGinnis, 23, St. Georges, Del., helicopter crash

March 29:
Marine Staff Sgt. James Cawley, 41, Layton, Utah, combat
Army Pfc. Michael Russell Creighton-Weldon, 20, Palm Bay, Fla., suicide attack
Army Cpl. Michael Edward Curtin, 23, Howell, N.J., suicide attack
Army Pfc. Diego Fernando Rincon, 19, Conyers, Ga., suicide attack
Marine Lance Cpl. William W. White, 24, New York, vehicle accident
Army Sgt. Eugene Williams, 24, Highland, N.Y, suicide attack

March 28:
Marine Sgt. Fernando Padilla-Ramirez, 26, San Luis, Ariz., combat
Army Sgt. Roderic A. Solomon, 32, Fayetteville, N.C., vehicle accident

March 27:
Marine Gunnery Sgt. Joseph Menusa, 33, Tracy, Calif., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Jesus A. Suarez Del Solar, 20, Escondido, Calif., combat

March 26:
Marine Maj. Kevin G. Nave, 36, White Lake Township, Mich., vehicle accident

March 25:
Marine Pfc. Francisco A. Martinez Flores, 21, Los Angeles, combat
Navy Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Michael Vann Johnson Jr., 25, Little Rock, Ark., combat
Marine Staff Sgt. Donald C. May, Jr., 31, Richmond, Va., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick T. O'Day, 20, Santa Rosa, Calif., combat
Marine Cpl. Robert M. Rodriguez, 21, New York, combat
Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone, 40, Boise, Idaho, grenade attack

March 24:
Marine Lance Cpl. Thomas A. Blair, 24, Broken Arrow, Okla., combat
Marine Cpl. Evan T. James, 20, La Harpe, Ill., drowned in canal
Marine Sgt. Bradley S. Korthaus, 29, Davenport, Iowa, drowned in canal
Army Spc. Gregory P. Sanders, 19, Hobart, Ind., combat

March 23:
Army Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, 22, Roswell, Ga., combat
Army Spc. Edward John Anguiano, 24, Los Fresnos, Texas, combat
Marine Sgt. Michael E. Bitz, 31, Ventura, Calif., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Brian Rory Buesing, 20, Cedar Key, Fla., combat
Army Sgt. George Edward Buggs, 31, Barnwell, S.C., combat
Marine Pfc. Tamario D. Burkett, 21, Buffalo, N.Y., combat
Marine Cpl. Kemaphoom A. Chanawongse, 22, Waterford, Conn., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Donald John Cline, 21, Sparks, Nev., combat
Army 1st Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, 38, Cleveland, combat
Army Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, 18, El Paso, Texas, combat
Marine Lance Cpl. David K. Fribley, 26, Fort Myers, Fla., combat
Marine Cpl. Jose A. Garibay, 21, Costa Mesa, Calif., combat
Marine Pvt. Jonathan L. Gifford, 30, Decatur, Ill., combat
Marine Cpl. Jorge A. Gonzalez, 20, Los Angeles, combat
Marine Pvt. Nolen R. Hutchings, 19, Boiling Springs, S.C., friendly fire
Army Pfc. Howard Johnson II, 21, Mobile, Ala., combat
Marine Staff Sgt. Phillip A. Jordan, 42, Enfield, Conn., combat
Army Spc. James M. Kiehl, 22, Comfort, Texas, combat
Army Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, 35, Pecos, Texas, combat
Marine Cpl. Patrick R. Nixon, 21, Gallatin, Tenn., combat
Army Pfc. Lori A. Piestewa, 23, Tuba City, Ariz., combat
Marine 2nd Lt. Frederick E. Pokorney Jr., 31, Tonopah, Nev., combat
Marine Sgt. Brendon C. Reiss, 23, Casper, Wyo., combat
Marine Cpl. Randal Kent Rosacker, 21, San Diego, combat
Army Pvt. Brandon U. Sloan, 19, Bedford Heights, Ohio, combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Thomas J. Slocum, 22, Thornton, Colo., combat
Army Sgt. Donald R. Walters, 33, Kansas City, Mo., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Michael J. Williams, 31, Phoenix, Ariz., combat

March 22:
Navy Lt. Thomas Mullen Adams, 27, La Mesa, Calif., helicopter collision
Marine Sgt. Nicolas M. Hodson, 22, Smithville, Mo., vehicle accident
Marine Lance Cpl. Eric J. Orlowski, 26, Buffalo, N.Y., machine gun accident
Army Capt. Christopher Scott Seifert, 27, Easton, Pa., grenade attack
Army Reserve Spc. Brandon S. Tobler, 19, Portland, Ore., vehicle accident

March 21:
Marine Maj. Jay Thomas Aubin, 36, Waterville, Maine, helicopter crash
Marine Capt. Ryan Anthony Beaupre, 30, St. Anne, Ill., helicopter crash
Marine 2nd Lt. Therrel S. Childers, 30, Harrison County, Miss., combat
Marine Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, 28, Los Angeles, combat
Marine Cpl. Brian Matthew Kennedy, 25, Houston, helicopter crash
Marine Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Waters-Bey, 29, Baltimore, helicopter crash

OTHER COALITION CASUALTIES:

DEATHS:
June 24:
Sgt. Simon Hamilton-Jewell, 41, Chessington, England, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths
Cpl. Russell Aston, 30, Swadlincote, England, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths
Cpl. Paul Long, 34, Colchester, England, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths
Cpl. Simon Miller, 21, Washington, England, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths
Lance Cpl. Benjamin McGowan Hyde, 23, Northallerton, England, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths
Lance Cpl. Richard Keys, 20, Llanuwchllyn, Wales, killed by locals angry over civilian deaths

May 19
Corporal David John Shepherd, 34, natural causes

May 8
Gunner Duncan Geoffrey Pritchard, 22, Suffolk, England, traffic accident

May 6
Pvt. Andrew Joseph Kelly, 18, Tavistock, England, accident

April 30
Lance Cpl. James McCue, 27, Paisley, Scotland, explosion.

April 22:
Lt. Alexander Tweedie, 25, armoured vehicle accident

April 6:
Fusilier Kelan J. Turrington, 18, combat.
Lance Cpl. Ian Malone, Dublin, Ireland, combat.
Piper Christopher Muzvuru, combat

April 1:
Lance Cpl. Karl Shearer, killed in accident involving light armored vehicle

March 31:
Staff Sgt. Chris Muir, Romsey, England, killed while disposing explosive ordnance

March 30:
Marine Christopher R. Maddison, combat
Lance Cpl. Shaun Andrew Brierley, road accident
Major Stephen A. Ballard, natural causes

March 28:
Lance Cpl. Matty Hull, in combat; death is being investigated possibly as result friendly fire

March 25:
Cpl. Stephen John Allbutt, Stoke-on-Trent, England, tank hit by friendly fire
Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke, Littleworth, England, tank hit by friendly fire

March 24:
Sgt. Steven Mark Roberts, Bradford, England, combat
Lance Cpl. Barry Stephen, Perth, Scotland, combat

March 23:
Sapper Luke Allsopp, London, combat
Staff Sgt. Simon Cullingworth, Essex, England, combat
Flight Lt. Kevin Barry Main, jet shot down by friendly fire
Flight Lt. David Rhys Williams, jet shot down by friendly fire

March 22:
Lt. Philip Green, helicopter collision
Lt. Marc Lawrence, helicopter collision
Lt. Antony King, Helston, England, helicopter collision
Lt. Philip West, Budock Water, England, helicopter collision
Lt. James Williams, Falmouth, England, helicopter collision
Lt. Andrew Wilson, helicopter collision

March 21:
Color Sgt. John Cecil, Plymouth, England, helicopter crash
Lance Bombardier Llewelyn Karl Evans, Llandudno, Wales, helicopter crash
Capt. Philip Stuart Guy, helicopter crash
Marine Sholto Hedenskog, helicopter crash
Sgt. Les Hehir, Poole, England, helicopter crash
Operator Mechanic Second Class Ian Seymour, helicopter crash
Warrant Officer Second Class Mark Stratford, helicopter crash
Maj. Jason Ward, helicopter crash

[KamaAina]

45. Died from a non-combat-related cause?!

July 3
Pfc. Corey L. Small, 20, of East Berlin, Pa. died on July 3 in Iraq. Small died from a non-combat related cause.

June 24
Army Spc. Cedric L. Lennon, 32, West Blocton, Ala., non-combat-related

June 16...
Army Spc. Joseph D. Suell, 24, Lufkin, Texas, non-combat related

plus three "non-combat-related weapons discharges"...

a "non-combat-related cause"? Like what? Inflamed hangnail? Jock itch? Or... let's see now... could it be...

SUICIDE???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=17861&mesg_id=17861&page=

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"...

[Romey]

24. Gen. McCaffrey was smiling after the clips

showing soldiers answering the "what would you say to Rummy?" question on "Press & Pukekanan".

McCaffrey stated that if these soldiers had been told the truth from the beginning, this wouldn't be happening.

If you remember, McCaffrey was the first to start yelling on BBC about there not being enough forces. He was told by Rummy&Co to "SHUT UP".

McCaffrey has good reason to be smiling now after hearing the soldier's reply, "I'd ask for his (Rumsfeld's) resignation."

[LearnedHand]

40. Welcome to DU, Romey!

:hi: :hi:

On edit: Fix the hi thingey.

[Pobeka]

27. I wonder if this is bullshit

To try and quell dissent from active duty personnel.

The military doesn't report to Rumsfield, it reports to Bush. Isn't the military's free speech protected? The soldiers were not critizing field commanders, they were critiziing an appointed politician.

Any military folks out there, what are a soldier's right to free speech in this situation?

[Rose Siding]

29. It would serve to vilify them to freeper types

Abi said something about Rumsfeld being the proxy of civilian rep for the cic- I don't think it's bs.

But it could be an attempt to marginalize the dissent as "UN-patriotic".

[bluestateguy]

28. during the Clinton era

complaining soldiers were hailed as great patriots and heroes.

We should do likewise with these gentlemen.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. How Republicans encouraged Soldiers to criticize Clinton

I have documented it in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=52646&mesg_id=52646&page=

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Isn't it punishment enough that they were lied to about their tour of duty

jacked around, led to believe they would be coming home and left as targets in a poorly planned invasion in 115 degree heat? Is there a LESS forgiving brig anywhere on GOD'S green earth?

[Jack Rabbit]

31. I agree, I don't like it

However, the soldiers should have know this. I served in the army and I was aware that one could go too far in expressing disrespect for superior officers and that the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense are part of the everybody's chain of command. So I kept the fact that I thought superior officer was an oxymoran to myslef. Mostly.

Having said that, I still feel we should stand up for these young men. They have been conned. We all know it. Remember the pre-war hype? Don't listen to the peaceniks. This is going to be a cakewalk. You guys will be home in no time.

Baloney. Do they expect these men to like it when they're lied to and those lies involve when they can go home? The junta would silence dissent where ever they can. This is a place where they can. This has less to do with military discipline than fascist politics.

The young man had it right: Rummy should resign. And he isn't the only one who should.

[Walt Starr]

33. I think these young men probably hoped the generals would...

...take care of the discipline for these actions.

One of the first things you are taught about the UCMJ upon entering training is that you cannot make disparaging remarks about those at the top of the chain of command; that doind so subjects you to corut martial.

They were probably hoping to be sent back to the states for their trial and sentence.

Now, their commanders will probably put them on permanent point duty.

[Frances]

34. My guess is that their commanders also think

Rumsfeld should resign. I think most of the generals hate him.

[PretzelWarrior]

37. of COURSE soldiers know the ramifications. if they want to spill to ABC

it's not ABCnews' job to say...are you sure you want to speak up? Heck, soldiers have risked punishment just for acting up on a day or two of leave.

This is just the way it goes. Maybe those guys are hoping for some days in the brig away from the RPG's and bullets. 114 degrees F? Full body armor? Iraqis taking pot shots? Constantly moving dates for leave? Yeah....I'd be p!ssed too.

Bush is Judge Smails to these guys: "You'll have nothing and like it!"

[Enraged_Ape]

38. "The floggings will continue until morale improves."

That was on a t-shirt I once saw. It sounds like the stance they're taking now.

[Ponderer]

47. I was expecting this. Speech is not free in the armed forces.

I was surprised ABC was irresponsible enough to publish their names.

[roguevalley]

49. I wanted to hug those kids. They knew what they were doing.

All of them know the rules of discipline. They held
their heads up and looked the reporters in the eye.
They threw down a gauntlet to the regime and their
higher-ups. I know their NCO's aren't going to do
anything to them.

Personally, I think if anyone does, they might get
shot. I think there is a very serious psychological
edge at play here and the situation is just waiting
for a match to light it off.

Five kids are suspected of committing suicide here.
These kids are in units that train and go over together,
rather than like Nam when you were sent to fill holes.
If you mess with someone's 'brother' you are going to
get shot.

I think they won't do anything to make this worse. And
I think the kids know it. They don't give a damn, they
have guns and they are on the edge. This is going to be
a dicey, serious thing we're seeing here and its only
the beginning.

They aren't eating enough and they aren't getting
enough water. They are living like rats and being
yanked around over rotation dates. Someone is going
to take a bullet for this. The NCO's are probably
holding it together with pins and needles.

RV, remembering Viet Nam

[JohnKleeb]

50. Isnt that what Hitler and Stalin did?

[nostamj]

51. this is such a painful, necessary subject

disclaimer (or sorts): i've never been in the military. i was eligible at the *very* end of Viet Nam but had a very high draft number. i certainly would have played the 'gay' card because it was true and I wouldn't have lied about it...

I've read many posts and letters (here and elsewhere on the net) because I believe that the 'real' lives and deaths of these people is what will bring down * and his hideous cabal.

it seems that these soldiers are reaching a point of:

I JUST DON'T GIVE A FUCK ANYMORE! I AM PISSED! I WANT ANSWERS!

are they going to shoot them?

will they eat better and have less chance of being picked off by a sniper or an RPG sitting in a brig?

if they have to deal with upper comand, might they occasionally get a little AC or the chance to bathe before appearing?

could they be so tired, frightened, hungry, frightened, hot, frightened, thirsty, frightened, frustrated, frightened, angry, frightened, malnurished, frightened, filthy, frightened, that they would welcome a courtmartial that would bring them home?

I am convinced that it will be the military families to bring this issue to the 'tipping point' in the same way that it will be for the 9/11 families with that issue.

these soldiers are ultimately much more important than the Niger lie or any of the other lies... but the context of deceit from the * administration damns them with each of these soldiers' stories and each of their deaths...

* is DOWN. keep kicking.