I hate to say it but...

[ncteechur]

perhaps Rove is sort of innocent in this case. Not that I think he is a good person-absolutely not. He is a hack who couldn't win fairly, he will always have to cheat to win. But...

he is also the kind of schmuck who can get someone else to do his bidding. It is possible that he said in passing that someone should go after Wilson and his whole family (knowing in his mind what that meant but not actually saying it). We know he told Chris Matthews that Wilson's wife was "fair game."

So he plants a seed, albeit an ambiguous one. He makes sure the info is floating around the white house for anyone willing to take up the charge. He sits back and smiles as other do the dirty work like the cat that ate the canary. Is he guilty? Yes, he could be guilty of being a lowlife, James Attwater dickhead. Did he leak it? Maybe or maybe not. Is he person A? Perhaps but only Fitzgerald knows that.

I would love to see Rove indicted and I'm sure there is plenty to indict him on even if not this particular incident but that may not happen.

However, it seems to me that if someone deliberately lies to a grand jury to cover up and obstruct justice, then they no longer get the benefit of the doubt. If Libby had said, well yes I did in fact talk to reports after I had been told about Plame. The the question would have become whether it was done maliciously. But since he lied and obstructed justice, it should be concluded that he is guilty of the security breech and as such should be charged as the security breech--an act of treason.

I realize that is wishful thinking but it is what I think!

[Sparkly]

1. Rove leaked to Matt Cooper

even before Novak's column.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8525978/site/newsweek/

[valerief]

2. Yeah, and if you're a Christian, maybe Satan is innocent

[hiaasenrocks]

3. F Rove. This is going to be about

Cheney.

[TahitiNut]

4. Rove is practiced at leaving no fingerprints ...

... knowing that the stench of his distinctive body odor at a crime scene isn't enough to convict him but is enough to make people fear him.

He regards the "rules of fair play" merely mean not getting caught - and regards the "rule of law" identically.

He trades in FEAR, not cooperation. He believes in the kind of competition that knee-caps an opponent rather than improve the performance of his own 'side.' He's the Tonya Harding of politics.

[Carolab]

5. And things worked out so well for her, didn't they?

I wonder if Karl is as clever as he thinks he is.

[TahitiNut]

6. Her only 'mistake' was in getting caught. That's the ONLY test.

Rove is totally amoral and without ethics. Unencumbered by such concerns, he applies his (limited) intellect in a purely destructive fashion. He's a perfect match for Junior - there's not a shred of conscience between them.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

16. The Tanya Harding of politics.

Did you come up with that? I don't think I've ever heard a more apt description.

[TahitiNut]

18. Yep. That paradigm occurred to me a few years ago.

I've never seen it written anywhere that I recall. I've always been keenly aware of two categories of "competition" - one that's solely focused on one's own performance and the other where hindering your opponent's performance can be nearly 100% of the effort.

It's one of the most firmly-grounded arguments against school grading "on the curve" -- a context that invites resentment of the best performers by everyone doing less. It leads to "eggheads" being ambushed by classroom bullies on their way home from school -- bullies whose fathers kick their ass for getting D's. Bullies learn it at home!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

19. a very apt description there.

:)

[Tiggeroshii]

7. He's sort* of innocent or Short* of innocence? Check your typos there bud.

It's been a long week. But yeah, I agree, I think he's short of innocence completely

[caledesi]

8. Fitz vs Rove. My bet is on Fitz! nt

[TahitiNut]

9. Lee Atwater ... (not "James Attwater")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

Here's the GOP race-baiting strategy as defined by Atwater:

"You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' - that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites.

"And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me - because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger, nigger.' "

Absolutely NOTHING has changed since Atwater defined it - it's the core of GOP ideology today.

[MADem]

11. Who renounced his behavior on his deathbed, FWIW

Rove should take a page from THAT playbook...!

[TahitiNut]

14. Yes, he was SELF-SERVING to the very end.

Golly ... if Adolph Hitler genuflected and confessed before he committed suicide, that makes it all OK.

That's the "Get Out Of Jail Free" card offered by the amoral, fundie Talibornagains.

[ncteechur]

21. Where in the hell did I get James Attwater. Does anyone know

a James Attwater? My apologies to James Attwater whoever and wherever you are.

[TahitiNut]

22. (grin) We all have brain farts. (Well, at least I do.)

Heaven forbid I speak for others. :silly:

You were quite clear regarding whom you were speaking of, so the misnomer was easily rectified. The second choice would be Donald Segreti.

[MADem]

10. Rove, innocent? What have you been smoking?

The turdblossom nurtured this seed, as much as Cheney and Scooter did. And I suspect there is much more still to be revealed.

[Julius Civitatus]

12. Innocent? -- Two words for you: "OFFICIAL A"

Nuff said!

[julialnyc]

13. read the indictment again..the wording suggests Rove suggested to Novak to

write article (and if not that he knew damn sure classified information would be made public). What would be really interesting to know would be how badly Novak sang:

On or about July 10 or July 11, 2003, LIBBY spoke to a senior official in the White
House (“Official A”) who advised LIBBY of a conversation Official A had earlier that week with
columnist Robert Novak in which Wilson’s wife was discussed as a CIA employee involved in
Wilson’s trip. LIBBY was advised by Official A that Novak would be writing a story about
Wilson’s wife.

[Mr_Spock]

15. We shall see how innocent this man responsible for 10,000's of deaths is

He's certainly going to burn in hell the rest of his life, but he may have to do that burning behind large walls. If not in jail, he will have to barricade himself from a society that would love to administer a bit of frontier justice to this son-of-a-bitch... x(

[Fovea]

17. If I am reading you right

I think even your *innocent* scenario is furtherance of a criminal conspiracy, as long as the goal is a criminal act.

[porphyrian]

20. If Rove is innocent, you produce flying monkeys from your ass.

Get real.

[Emit]

23. 'Sort of innocent.' Is that like being sort of pregnant? n/t

[Carolab]

24. I like Bob Fertik's comments on this

Rove's Reason for Treason: 'He's a Democrat'
Submitted by Bob Fertik on July 18, 2005 - 11:02am.Karl Rove | Valerie Plame
Tom Hamburger and Peter Wallsten of the LA Times have the scoop, and it's ugly:

Top aides to President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were intensely focused on discrediting former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV in the days after he wrote an op-ed article for the New York Times suggesting the administration manipulated intelligence to justify going to war in Iraq, federal investigators have been told.

Prosecutors investigating whether administration officials illegally leaked the identity of Wilson's wife, a CIA officer who had worked undercover, have been told that Bush's top political strategist, Karl Rove, and Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, were especially intent on undercutting Wilson's credibility, according to people familiar with the inquiry.

Although lower-level White House staffers typically handle most contacts with the media, Rove and Libby began personally communicating with reporters about Wilson, prosecutors were told.

A source directly familiar with information provided to prosecutors said Rove's interest was so strong that it prompted questions in the White House. When asked at one point why he was pursuing the diplomat so aggressively, Rove reportedly responded: "He's a Democrat." Rove then cited Wilson's campaign donations, which leaned toward Democrats, the person familiar with the case said.

The disclosures about the officials' roles illustrate White House concern about Wilson's July 6, 2003, article, which challenged the administration's assertion that Iraq had sought to purchase nuclear materials. Wilson's article appeared as Rove and other Bush aides were preparing the 2004 reelection campaign strategy, which was built largely around the president's response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

Let's be clear about Joe Wilson:

Joe Wilson was a career foreign service officer who was loyal to his country, not to any political party.
Joe Wilson served with distinction under both Democratic and Republican presidents.
Joe Wilson was honored by George Bush's father for his service during the first Gulf War, when he was the #2 American official at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad and had to look after 175 Americans who came to the Embassy when the war began.
Joe Wilson contributed to both George Bush and Al Gore in 2000 (see below).
Joe Wilson went to Niger to serve his country as a volunteer - he did not accept a fee.
Joe Wilson has told the truth about every aspect of his trip.

And let's be clear about Karl Rove:

Karl Rove has never put his life at risk for his country.
Karl Rove was one of the masterminds of the war in Iraq, which has cost the lives of 1766 U.S. soldiers.
One of Rove's primary reasons for invading Iraq was to win the 2002 election and the 2004 election.
Karl Rove is so blinded by his hatred of Democrats that Wilson's campaign contributions to Democrats were sufficient reason for Rove to commit treason.
Karl Rove should face the death penalty for the harm he did to our national security by outing Valerie Plame, given his obscene motivation for doing so.

And finally, let's be clear about George Bush:

George Bush should be impeached for keeping a traitor on his staff and putting re-election politics ahead of America's national security.

Here are Joseph C. Wilson's federal contributions from 1996-2002.

2000: Gore $3000, Bush $1000, Ted Kennedy $1000, Ed Royce (R-CA) $500

2002: Hillary $1000, Ed Royce (R-CA) $1000, Fred Thompson (R-TN) $250, Lamar Alexander (R-TN) $250, Nick Rahall (D-WV) $250

http://www.democrats.com/node/5398

[Justice Is Comin]

25. Luskin, Rove's lawyer

just before the indictments were to be announced, rushed to get a statement on the air that "Rove was still under investigation."

He certainly wouldn't make any reference to that if he was going on down the yellow brick road without a care in the world. It may have been something Fitz suggested he may want to do because there was some sweaty negotiation going on to avoid Rove being indicted already on Friday.

Another thing, Rove steam rolled Libby. Libby is not going to take kindly to that 30 years he's facing. I don't think he's going to be inviting him over for barbecue and Lowenbrau. If I were Rove, Libby would be my worst nightmare.

[Marie26]

26. I sort of agree

Yes, Rove is a slimeball. Everyone knows that. But he wasn't the WMD/Iraq foreign policy guy. He was Bush's image/PR guy. It doesn't seem like he ever got the classified info about Plame's identity until it was already circulating among the Administration/media neocons. He then rubbed his little hands together and decided this was a good chance to hurt Wilson. After all, if he's hearing about her from NOVAK, that must mean this info was already leaked, and Wilson's wife is now "fair game." So he starts spreading the info on to Cooper & Chris Matthews. But Rove only confirmed the story to Novak; he wasn't Novak's original source. He got involved in July, way after this info began circulating in May. Instead, in the indictment, it looks like all roads lead to Cheney. Cheney was the WMD/foreign policy guru - who apparantly originally contacted his neocon buddies in the NSC, CIA, & State Dept. for info about Joe Wilson. Cheney shared Plame's name with Libby. Libby then starts to share this w/the media in June. In the indictment, almost every meeting about Wilson involved a member of Cheney's office. Maybe Fitzgerald concluded Rove is a tangential figure in this, and decided to avoid indicting him in return for info he could offer about Cheney's role?

[Carolab]

29. That's pretty much what I've deduced as well, BUT

don't forget Rove DID lie to the FBI.

So I don't think he's "off the hook"...

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3463

Looks like Karl Rove did break the law, the same federal law that got Martha Stewart sentenced to six months in prison.

It now appears that Rove, President Bush’s chief of staff, may have lied to the FBI in October 2003 - a federal crime - when he was questioned by federal agents investigating who was responsible for leaking information about a covert CIA operative to the media.

During questioning by the FBI about his role in the Plame affair, Rove told federal agents that he only started sharing information about Plame with reporters and White House officials for the first time after conservative columnist Robert Novak identified her covert CIA status in his column on July 14, 2003. This is according to a report in the American Prospect about Rove’s testimony in March 2004, a copy of which can be found here.

But Rove wasn’t truthful with the FBI as evidenced by the disclosure of Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper’s emails, which reveal Rove as the source for Cooper’s own July 2003 story identifying Plame as a CIA operative, and show that Rove spoke to Cooper nearly a week before Novak’s column was published and, according to previously published news reports, spoke to a half-dozen other reporters about Plame as early as June 2003.

{snip}

[SeveneightyWhoa]

33. "Perhaps Rove is sort of innocent"..."I sort of agree"

I sort of think its strange when people with relatively low post counts come out to defend Karl Rove's "sort of" innocence.

Try harder next time!

[Marie26]

35. Trying harder...

Yes, I am a Freeper troll. You've exposed my cover! :P I think maybe the distinction is between whether Rove did something "wrong" or he did something "illegal". We can all agree Rove did something wrong by spreading this info; but Fitzgerald can't indict him for that. He needs to show there's "probable cause" to believe that Rove violated a law. And based on the facts, I'm having trouble seeing the legal violations here. Maybe you could help me out? Based on the indictment, Fitz can't really indict him on espionage/release of classified information, because Rove got the info from Novak in July. It would be hard to get him on the "Intelligence Identities Act" because the info was already leaked; and it's not clear that he knew her identity was classified. (Rove didn't get the State Dept. memo.) If Rove lied about calling reporters, that's perjury, but since he testified 4 times, he's probably already "corrected" those misstatements. The only charge I can see is if he lied to investigators, like Carolab said. But that charge looks a little weaker if Rove eventually corrected those statements - a good defense lawyer could argue he "forgot" & had memory "refreshed" later, etc. Fitz seems very meticulous & will only bring charges he can win. He seems very focused on his target & it looks like that target is Cheney. It seems like he views Rove more as a tool than a target. And if he can leverage Rove w/the threat of indictment into naming Cheney, he'll finally have the info he needs to do criminal conspiracy charges against Cheney's whole gang. Conspiracy charges are much easier to prove than the technical violations of the Intelligence Act. I don't like Rove either, but he does seem like a minor player here that Fitz could be using to get to the big shots. (IMHO & really only Fitz knows).

[Toucano]

27. The mastermind is the guilty one.

It's a conspiracy. He doesn't need to have physically committed the crime himself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. "Sort of innocent"?? Then I must be "sort of" Santa Claus.

[Seansky]

30. why make a last min. deal then? why wait to the last min. for anything?

He could have come clean publicly way back...

[Carolab]

31. To trip Fitz up in making the indictment on Friday against Rove.

He ran out the clock on purpose.

Let's see what this buys him.

[leesa]

32. That doesn't make him innocent in the least. He's done this before.

[Little Star]

34. Rove is no better than all the jails full of Thugs

I do not see him as brilliant nor even particularly smart. He is a hoodlum in a suit with a good position. What Matthews calls hardball politics I call corrupt. However ol'Tweety is right, Karl knows how to play hardball. Wonder what street corner he learned this so called hardball on. Probably the same as all the other thugs. Maybe he'll eventually get to jail and the other thugs can school him up some more. I pray.