Liddy, starched shirts, Radler --- Cheney and W should be freaking.

[understandinglife]

Within ~ 5 min of having access to the indictment I started a thread because of the following statement on page 5:

On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA."

Link:
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/04ms407-I.pdf

Link to the thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5205585&mesg_id=5205585

For me that is the focal point, the nexus of the indictment. Having read it several more times, I have no doubt that Cheney is sweating blood and every WHIGer and neoconster that participated in the "get Wilson" seances in the two month interval of cited events in the indictment, should be sweating as well.

But, through the day I've noted much gnashing of teeth and lamenting that can best be summarized as "that's all; just Libby."

No, that's not all.

As several have posted, Mr. Fitzgerald made it crystal clear that he was not finished.

Today, Steve Gilliard had posted a cogent statement of why indicting Libby is CRUCIAL:

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/10/why-libby-indictment-is-crucial.html

And, this afternoon, Jane Hamsher, both humorously and cogently, presents the context from which each person should evaluate just how serious the situation is for Libby:

<clip>

Now we enter the realm of -- admittedly -- pure speculation. But Fitzgerald has Libby on 30 years worth of counts, and he's got him cold. No wiggle room. Libby may not do 30 years, but he ain't doing 6 months. He is F-U-C-K-E-D fucked. It was the Veep's boon companion himself, David Gergen, who said on MSNBC today that this is squeeze time. It really matters little to a man of 55 whether he is looking at 30 years or 60 -- he'd rather have 60 thrown at him if some of them were shaky and he thought he could use the wobbly ones to get out of the rest.

There is no wobble in the indictments handed down today. It's pretty clear. Libby can deal or swing.

Which brings us to David Radler. Who is David Radler? David Radler was the #2 man at Hollinger International. The day after he was indicted by the US Attorney for the State of Illinois Patrick J. Fitzgerald for looting money from the stockholders of Hollinger, he announced he'd rather "cooperate with investigators" (read: rat out his boss, Conrad Black) than spend the rest of his life perfecting the ultimate starch job in the prison laundry. Radler decided he would take Door #2 and do twenty-nine unpleasant months and pay a fine when the prospect of life in prison became a reality.

That's just the way Patrick Fitzgerald works. If the Hollinger case, and the Ryan case, and the Daley Case, and the Al Quaeda case and the Gambino case are any indication, Fitzgerald will now use what he's got to get more.

<clip>

From Patrick Fitzgerald, David Radler and the Ghost of Fitzmas Future by Jane Hamsher on October 28, 2005

Link:

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/patrick-fitzgerald-david-radler-and.html

This is not over. I'm willing to speculate that unless Cheney dies of natural causes before trial he is going to be in a court room as a defendant because pansy ass Libby is not about to protect the maestro of the outing of a CIA NOC.

The only question remaining for me is will Cheney roll on W regarding the "go ahead" (said in the crudest of terms, I'm sure) from AF1 to "get Wilson."

p.s. Rove is now known to all his buddies as a snitch; bye, bye Karl.


Peace.

[jazzjunkysue]

1. Exactly. This isn't over. It's just getting started.

They're all rats, and they'll sell out each other.

Either way, when all the dirty laundry gets aired, and it will, now, the GOP will have to hide under the table and beg for scraps.

They've accomplished nothing in these 5 years except land us in the middle of the arab/israeli conflict, and endless war.

Oh, yeah. And they've put our grandchildren into hock.

From now on, GOP means BAD.

[DemReadingDU]

2. It's only just begun...Here's another interesting blog

from the former Nashuaadvocate

Patrick Fitzgerald believes numerous officials in the White House--to include the Vice President of the United States and the President of the United States--were involved in (depending upon which official you're discussing) either the leak of classified information or criminal acts aimed at covering up that leak.

The problem he faces now is proving offenses--each of which are indictable and/or impeachable--against the twenty most powerful men and women in the world, just about all of whom are members (honorary or participating) of the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) which of late lied this nation into a never-ending foreign war.


http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2005/10/time-to-talk-like-grown-ups.html

[texpatriot2004]

3. Thanks UL for this. I think it's only getting started. nm

[understandinglife]

4. I must admit that I am laughing really hard just now as I notice that ...

... I typed "Liddy" instead of "Libby" -- that shows both my age and a subliminal disgust that I'll never be able to suppress for G Gordon!!

:rofl:

Hey mods -- anyone care to correct the subject line!! It's too late for me to edit!!!


Peace.

[Catherine Vincent]

6. And no on even noticed!

:thumbsup:

[morningglory]

18. Dislexics untie! n/t

[alphafemale]

20. Neat Coincidence.

Liddy was more darkly fascinating, though.

Libby is rather... How do I put this?

His nickname is a perfect fit.

[leftchick]

28. I didn't even notice!

I plead age and lack of coffee but oh how perfectly it fits!

:)

[texpatriot2004]

5. "Nailing Rove doesn't nail the neocons" BINGO!

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/10/why-libby-indictment-is-crucial.html

<snip>

"First, Libby was part of the neocon circle. He knew all of the key players, and thus, as his boss's factorum, he was representing Cheney directly. When people from Bolton's office got Plame's name, that's who it went to.

If there was any need to get Joe Wilson, that's where it came from, Rove came in afterwards. This whole thing started with Scooter Libby and his boss, not the Oval Office."

<snip>

"...it's Libby and friends who are a mortal danger to the Republic.

It was the neocons who led this country into war, with their man Cheney at the helm. Bush was an eager client, but they were the sales team, And as long as they have power, this country is in danger."

My own thought -
I watched the press conf. Fitzgerald gave; I remember he said the leak started with Libby. Those were not his exact words, I think he said something like Libby was the first official to give the information to someone outside the WH. Interesting.

[understandinglife]

7. Precisely. And, Steve wrote that Before the indictments -- he "gets it."

Libby either pleas or he's in the slammer for a long time.

When I reflect on the Gov Ryan situation. One indictment in 1998 and five years later 66 defendents have been named; 59 convicted already -- Mr. Fitzgerald turns the wheels of justice slowly and precisely.


Peace.

[texpatriot2004]

12. Reminds me of Bleever's Tag line...

The wheels of justice grind but they grind exceedingly fine...or something like that. I will have to look at it again. Maybe it is the "wheels of the gods" don't remember exactly at this moment.

[texpatriot2004]

13. Question UL - The prospect of 5 yrs of court proceedings does

not give me the warm fuzzies. I believe the world can't wait (I know you do too). That whole 5 yrs thing freaks me out, even 2 yrs would be too long, okay, hell one year. I am barely hanging on here like many people. Help. Tell me what your thoughts are on this.

[understandinglife]

15. Mr. Fitzgerald is going to move steadily and Mr. Libby is already ...

... smelling the scent of diesel from Fitzgerald's steamroller and he knows he's in the direct path.

I anticipate that the reality of what Fitzgerald did today has already sunk deeply into Libby's mind - he is a lawyer, as well.

Let's give it a few days and see where the situation is before becoming too concerned about six months from now or five years from now.


Peace.

[calimary]

46. Yes indeedy! Plus, I think it's a VERY freezing-cold shock to the system

here.

THIS is the very first time since the whole nightmare began - that one of these supremely evil and arrogant demons has actually NOT gotten away with something.

The template was there. As were the habits. And the ingrained, mechanical, automatic responses. They've ALWAYS gotten away with it, til now. NONE of these assholes has ever really been held accountable for the run-up to the war. They thought they could kick Joseph Wilson in the nuts by ruining his wife's career - in her key positioning as a CIA NOC. And they assumed, BECAUSE they've always gotten away with it up til now, they'd just damned well get away with it again. And THIS TIME, they didn't.

Oopsie!

I couldn't be more tickled. There are those who'd say "let the games begin." They just did.

BTW - THANKS for the link to the Steve Gilliard blog. BRILLIANT!

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. We're already 2 years into the process

and Fitzgerald did say he wants to finish this up so he can sleep in his own bed back home in Chicago. I think we are going to see a lot of activity in the next few weeks.

[Window]

37. I pray you are correct!

Peace

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. That's what happens when you open the flood gates

then everything starting gushing out at the same time and all hell breaks loose.

[understandinglife]

55. And, it looks like a lot of water has already flowed -- check this:

Mr. Fitzgerald was spotted Friday morning outside the office of James Sharp, Mr. Bush's personal lawyer. Mr. Bush was interviewed about the case by Mr. Fitzgerald last year. It is not known what discussions, if any, were taking place between the prosecutor and Mr. Sharp. Mr. Sharp did not return a phone call, and Mr. Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined to comment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/politics/29leak.html?pagewanted=print

Josh Marshall noted it at TPM:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006889.php

And, here is a neat DU thread just getting underway on the issue of Mr Fitzgerald visiting with Bush's private (criminal) attorney:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5219312


Peace.

[Peace Patriot]

39. He didn't say the leak started with Libby. He was talking specifically

about Libby's lie that he had heard of Plame's identity from reporters and that "all the reporters knew." Fitzgerald was saying that Libby was actually the spinner of THAT loop. It wasn't the reporters; it was Libby! (--and he's got Libby nailed on that.)

But as to who STARTED the leak--who ordered it, whose nefarious scheme it was--Fitzgerald said nothing in the press conference, and we have only his ref in the indictment to Cheney as the source of Libby's info (and to "Official A"--Rove). What Fitzgerald could not find out was intent--the bigger plot--BECAUSE Libby obstructed him. (He was very insistent on this point--and, now that I think of it, was as much as saying that there WAS a conspiracy that he couldn't get at--couldn't get conviction evidence for--because he is being blockaded, by Libby.)

[belle]

58. No, but it'd be a big help for the '06 elections if he's not around, Rove.

Not saying I don't agree with the assessment of the neocons as ultimately more of a danger than one vicious propaganda guru--the policy comes from them, he's just the one who sells it--but still it'd be good to make him go away.

Also, of course, I really, really hate the evil pigfucker.

[understandinglife]

8. "Mr. Cheney, eager to be rid of the meddlesome Joe Wilson, ...

... got Valerie Wilson's name from the C.I.A. and passed it on to Scooter. He forced the C.I.A. to compromise one of its own, a sacrifice on the altar of faith-based intelligence.

Vice spent so much time lurking over at the C.I.A., trying to intimidate the analysts at Langley into twisting the intelligence about weapons, that he should have had one of his undisclosed locations there.

This administration's grand schemes always end up as the opposite. Officials say they're promoting national security when they're hurting it; they say they're squelching terrorists when they're breeding them; they say they're bringing stability to Iraq when the country's imploding. (The U.S. announced five more military deaths yesterday.)

And the most dangerous opposite of all: W. was listening to a surrogate father he shouldn't have been listening to, and not listening to his real father, who deserved to be listened to.

From Who's on First? by Maureen Dowd on October 29, 2005

More at the link:

http://select.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/opinion/29dowd.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

"Vice" -- do you really think Scooter's gonna save your ass?


Peace.

[DoYouEverWonder]

32. Makes you wonder if during those visits to Langley

if Cheney didn't butt heads directly with Valerie, who refused to tell him what he wanted to hear? Then when her husband came out and exposed the lies about Niger, Cheney got really po'd and decided to destroy both of them?

[understandinglife]

49. I have many times thought that because of what we know that she ...

... did, that it would have been very likely that she was one of the key CIA WMD experts involved in drafting the classified communications that went to the White House in the days before Bush's infamous Oct 7, 2002 speech in Cincinnati.

The WH was forced by the CIA to redacted the Niger uranium claim from that speech. And, it would not surprise me if Dickie boy wasn't in a room in Langley screaming at those involved in persistently blocking the WH from spewing the Niger lie.

So, I think your speculation is reasonable.


Peace.

[Terran]

9. I'm not sure Libby wil flip

even when faced with disbarment, bankruptcy and prison. I'm betting he has a high degree of loyalty to the neocons, and Cheney in particular. We shall see.

[understandinglife]

10. I'm not sure, either. But, he will.

Like Ms Hamsher noted, he's 55 looking at 30, hard.

Not one of these pukes has ever had to do anything remotely requiring of bravery or sacrifice.

Protecting a guy with terminal cardiac disease - I don't think so.

Protecting "W" - definitely NOT.


Peace.

[Terran]

11. I hope hope hope you're right! n/t

[HereSince1628]

19. Libby is an ideologue for the terrible ideas of neoconservatism

I have the feeling that he will accept the role of martyr.

Moreover Libby has powerful people pumping up his personal delusion of unjust persecution in order to keep him quiet. It's already started with the statements of praise heaped on him by Cheney and Bush, and the jabber of wing-nut talking heads.

Until Libby actually spends a number of lunar cycles in prison more or less isolated from his psychological support I doubt he is going to crack.

[belle]

59. I think only if he thinks he can get out of jail free quickly.

I also don't think he's willing to fall on his sword to the point where he's behind bars for the rest of his miserable life. He's probably looking at Ollie North and Chuck Colson, thinking that their "ruin" sounds like a fine career, he could go for that kind of martyrdom, sure.

[cassiepriam]

62. In prison Libby will get an Aspens Are Turning letter from Cheney

to remind him to keep his mouth shut.

[MADem]

40. Libby made MILLIONS representing Marc Rich

He lived WELL. I can't see him doing time in a federal pen, losing his law license, his income stream, and being marginalized ... for the sake of IDEOLOGY???

He's no Taliban, suicide bomber, true believer--he likes POWER for what it can BRING him, not power for power's sake.

And now he has been cut off from his support system. The word is out at the WH NOT TO TALK TO HIM, in the event additional subpeonas are issued.

He is alone, adrift, and having to dip into his savings for some good criminal representation, and to pay his day to day bills.

He cannot be a happy camper.

[calimary]

47. Well, poor guy! Maybe he could hit up that Abramoff guy...

Oh. Uh... I guess THAT option is out...


:evilgrin:

[understandinglife]

14. The indictment is a masterpiece and I'm not a lawyer, but it is such ...

... an exquisite network of gotchas - not just for LIBBY, but for others.

Just look at the way he constructs the scope of the historical framework, beginning in May of 2003 with Kristof's NYT piece and extending to Novak's "outing" article in July, 2003:

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/04ms407-I.pdf

During that interval we find LIBBY having a chat with "Official A" on July 10 or 11, 2003 during which "Official A" advises LIBBY that Novak was going to write a story about Wilson's wife.

On July 12, 2005, LIBBY is on AF1 with Cheney and others and check items # 22 and 23 on page 8. Tad bit of planning and execution of the plan -- what do you think?


Peace.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. As far as I know

Neither Libby or Cheney were on AF1 during the trip to Africa?

[understandinglife]

50. Late night typo .... sorry, I meant AF2, per the indictment. My tally ...

... for errors on this OP is embarrassing -- first I do the Liddy instead of Libby and now this ... Ugh. Please forgive, everyone ...

Oh, and I was referring to item # 22 in the indictment (see comment # 35, as well), and not the trip to Bush's trip to Africa.


Peace.

[DemReadingDU]

35. they flew on AF2, not AF1

#22 on page 8

On or about July 12, 2003, LIBBY flew with the Vice President and others to and from Norfolk, Virginia, on Air Force Two. On his return trip, LIBBY discussed with other officials aboard the plane what LIBBY should say in response to certain pending media inquiries, including questions from Time reporter Matthew Cooper.

[snot]

16. Man I hope you're right, but even if you're not--

it's some consolation to imagine W's & Cheney's present torment -- thank you.

[understandinglife]

17. Thank you and I think it is not far fetched to think that those dudes ...

... are in full-scale panic mode.

Plus, just imagine how their corporatista buddies are reacting to all of this and we already know how the Bush I loyalists feel about the "Dick and Don cabal"!

They're getting "squeezed" by way more than Fitzgerald & Co.

The irony is that Bush I, as head of the RNC, was reported to have been even more demanding than Ford in telling Nixon in the final cabinet meeting in August of 2004 that he, Nixon, had to resign.

Wonder what Bush I will be saying to Bush II this weekend.


Peace.

[DemReadingDU]

36. Are father and son speaking?

I don't seem to recall them together in pictures lately.
Seems like it is Clinton together with Bush I, in pictures.

[understandinglife]

52. Well, after the Wilkerson and Scowcroft blasts in the past 10 days ...

... one can imagine junior being truly p.o'd with the old man! The old guard is definitely taking some major shots at the neoconsters.
:evilgrin:


Peace.

[July]

21. Have the talking heads addressed the dates?

Cheney and friends were digging into Wilson's life BEFORE the op-ed in July. What's up with that?

[mmonk]

22. Getting Libby to flip

is just one card Fitz has. I think he has more. Libby still doesn't know all that Fitz has. He may find himself in a tougher bind than he imagines.

[zippy890]

23. Cheney will have to testify, won't he?

This could get real interesting.

Good post, thanks

[MetaTrope]

24. Do you suppose Cheney will send someone to break Libby's legs?

[mmonk]

25. someone must have already got to him.

[zippy890]

26. Worse than that !

Did you hear about Cheney's recent strange message to Scooter?
;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5140370

hee hee

had some fun with that

[rodeodance]

29. yes, he will be a witness if goes to trial.

[rodeodance]

30. kick. good post, makes my day.

[No Exit]

34. Cheney's on the witness list

I imagine he would claim any number of lame legal excuses in order to get out of testifying. If he does, every excuse he brings makes him look worse.

The alternative is to just get up there and tell the truth. Unfortunately for Mr. Cheney, the truth makes his pacemaker run backwards.

[understandinglife]

56. As to who will have to testify and how gigantic a trial this could be ...

... definitely read ReddHedd's analysis posted at firedoglake:

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/if-you-apply-heat-you-get.html

As usuall, she does a superb (and fun to read) job!


Peace.

[rodeodance]

31. nominated ---spread this far and wide.

[never cry wolf]

41. I had this thought yesterday, it's far from over

First, at Fitz's press conference he mentioned repeatedly that he would be derelict in his duty not to hear both sides of a conversation before deciding to indict.

Second, we know Cheney told Libby about Plame. Given the context, after they knew Wilson was talking to the press, does anyone here believe darth cheney didn't say something to Libby like, "how can we fuck them?"

Third, Fitz emphasized a few times how serious the alleged crimes are against Libby. In the indictment he was also very careful to list multiple examples to prove what Libby knew and when he knew it. It's a strong case and Libby is in deep shit and knows it. Despite that Libby has still not cooperated.

Fourth, it was widely speculated the rove would also be indicted today but there was a flurry of abnormally visible actions at the last minute, checking with the neighbors about knowledge about Plame, interviewing an associate of rove, a meeting with rove's attorney and voila, no rove indictment as expected.

Does anyone here doubt that cheney and rove ever discussed Plame and a term similar to, "how can we fuck them" came up?

Sound plausible so far? So, here's my theory: Fitz knows more than we do, obviously, so I have no doubt he knows how vengeful but also how tightly knit this cabal is. Libby and rove are eyewitnesses to conspiracy by cheney and others but neither will talk. He very well have other witnesses (Hadley, Wurmser, et al) but as today's indictments show, he is very thorough and wants ALL the evidence possible. The GJ was expiring so he nailed scooter with serious charges with serious consequences because he was the easy target due to blatant lying. He holds off on Rove to let Libby twist in the wind wondering if kkkarl flipped. Libby also doesn't know who else has talked so he starts to think, "should I go to the pen for up to 30 years to protect Dick when he is going to go down anyway or do I save my skin?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5211547

[Verve]

43. Doesn't Libby have a wife and kids? Hopefully, they're putting the

pressure on him to come clean to lessen his prison term.

However, I have a sinking feeling Libby might be a romantic martyr type. His prose to Judy Miller, his spy novel and his neocon ideals suggest that he may think it's noble to be the fall guy. (Although, jail time may slap him back into reality!)

(sorry never cry wolf! I didn't mean to post directly under you!)

[understandinglife]

53. Quite reasonable. If you want to drive a stake into the heart of ...

... the neoconster regime (my term for PNAC), Libby's your target.

And, for the same reason I do not consider Cheney an ideologue, I don't consider Libby one, either. For me, PNAC is, at it's core, a militaristic framework for avarice on a global scale. When a pansy-ass like Scooter starts contemplating the difference between the St. Regis and a federal penitentiary, he is going to rival Maria Callas for the high notes he'll sing (and may already be).


Peace.

[Pithy Cherub]

42. The Ghost of Fitzmas Future will be roaring back in short order.

Fitz absolutely took out the heart of the bush White House. Everyone thought it was Rove. It was only Rove on politics in America. The PNAC agenda is global. Condi, Hadley, Wurmser, Rumsfeld, Ledeen, Feith, Perle, Wolfowitz, Bolton, WHIG et al were all reporting to Libby. There were no free-lancers without CHENEY knowing about it.

Holding Libby's feet to the fire is not meant as a warning to Cheney. It's to the rest of the administration. My guess is Libby would cut a deal to rat out the remainder of the cabal, not to go after Cheney. Ultimately Cheney falls of his own weight, because there would be nothing to prop him up. Bush would be forced to have Cheney resign (for whatever reason) in order to *recover* a smidgen of political capital. But, to do that the rest of the neo-cons have to be brought down. These PNAC wingnut fantics had/have global resource domination as the goal.

Rove hurts the pResident, not the ultimate case because it was all hatched at PNAC's think tanks. That's why so many of these scandals overlap. Please continue Fitz, one at a time is much more psychic trauma than indicting one at a time.

Wow, Fitmas more than one time a year! :popcorn;

[progressivebydesign]

44. Even the NYT said "Rove escapes indictment for NOW"

It ain't over til it's over. Fitzgerald is a brilliant man. He's used to layers and layers of corruption, and is peeling it all back like an onion.

[helderheid]

45. this is exactly how I understood this to mean! Excellent! Should be very

good days ahead.

[understandinglife]

48. NYTimes -- spotlight on Cheney .... just as it should be

In Indictment's Wake, a Focus on Cheney's Powerful Role

By ELISABETH BUMILLER and ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 - Vice President Dick Cheney makes only three brief appearances in the 22-page federal indictment that charges his chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, with lying to investigators and misleading a grand jury in the C.I.A. leak case. But in its clear, cold language, it lifts a veil on how aggressively Mr. Cheney's office drove the rationale against Saddam Hussein and then fought to discredit the Iraq war's critics.

The document now raises a central question: how much collateral damage has Mr. Cheney sustained?

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/politics/30cheney.html?ei=5094&en=d599c390429480e0&hp=&ex=1130644800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

And, we know who's controlling that spotlight and he doesn't seem at all ready to turn it off!


Peace.

[helderheid]

60. thanks!

[elehhhhna]

51. READ THIS :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5210220

[understandinglife]

54. Thank you for posting this link. It provides clear insight ...

.... of Fitzgerald's mastery of the art of prosecution. 1 indictment, 5 years, 66 indicted, 59 convictions and the case is still rolling.

You know Libby is contemplating that reality with every breath he takes.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

57. Psst Scooter; what if Dickie dies before you squeal ... think about it.

Peace.

[nolabels]

61. I snicker and giggle at the stupidity but really hope they all fry

They are sworn to help and protect the country but they are all busily trying to fuck it over in anyway possible. They are traitors in the true sense of the word

When will the rest of the country wake up to whats going on x(