Cindy Sheehan, WH fence

[LuckyTheDog]

Who here is like me on this? Who hopes that Cindy Sheehan would, for her own sake, decide NOT do this? Ms. Sheehan is someone I respect a lot. But I think this act would expose her to ridicule and achieve little.

--------------------------------------

http://abcnews.go.com/US/IraqCoverage/wireStory?id=1242048

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cindy Sheehan, the military mother who made her son's death in Iraq a rallying point for the anti-war movement, plans to tie herself to the White House fence to protest the milestone of 2,000 U.S. military deaths in Iraq.

-------------------------------

[libnnc]

1. Cindy's a grown woman who is free to do as she pleases.

End of story.

[LuckyTheDog]

4. Hey, I agree

It's up to her. But still wish she wouldn't.

[FreedomAngel82]

144. She knows what's best

If she thought it would be dangerous I'm sure she wouldn't do it.

[nini]

2. She can do whatever she wants

If this keeps the bogus war in the headlines then more power to her.

[KittyWampus]

79. even if it provides much needed distraction for Bush Regime? Americans

already are against the Iraq War.

[nini]

96. IF we choose to act or not act based on what ifs..

then we're screwed.

ALL of this shit needs to be kept on the plate.

[No Exit]

114. Then I guess no one should organize or go to any more war protests.

The battle is won: we're bringing our soldiers home from Iraq.

While polls show that most Americans are indeed against the Iraq war, have you noticed that there is a very vocal contingent of loudmouths out there still defending it? Should we just let them go unchallenged?

[wrathofkahn]

3. You'll probably want to put on your asbestos underwear

Here was the last circular firing squad on the topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5147080

[beam me up scottie]

7. Yeah, I saw that sickening display.

You know that part about not marching in lockstep?

When it comes to this issue, it doesn't apply.

Be a dittohead cheerleader and you'll get along fine.

[libnnc]

14. no ditto heads here...

I just wasn't raised with the cynicism and nerve to criticize a grieving mother.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Nobody's a god.

And this is a political board, opinions are what we do.

Stifling dissent is a conservative value, not a liberal one.

When someone offers their opinion, they shouldn't have their loyalty, their ethics and their dignity attacked.

[libnnc]

30. okay, your opinion differs from mine

You question Cindy's credibility. I don't.

[tx_dem41]

33. I must have missed the part where BMUS questioned Cindy's...

credibility. Can you help me out?

[libnnc]

38. I guess it's just me then...

I'm sorry.

I'm just fucking sorry as I can be but I CANNOT imagine criticizing Cindy's opinions and actions regarding the war in Iraq. I just can't. I don't have it in me.

I guess that makes me a ditto headed dumb fuck...

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[tx_dem41]

47. I didn't call you that, libnnc. n/t

[libnnc]

52. I never said you did.

But there are people on this board who bemoan those of us who can't criticize Cindy. We're lock-steppers. Ditto heads. We worship at the altar of Cindy...etc.

Well you know what? Guilty as charged. I will not criticize a grieving mother. I. Won't. Do. It.

I don't know what its like to lose a child. I don't have children of my own, (wish I did but its not up to me...that's a whole other thread) but I will not poo-poo another woman's expression of grief and personal conviction.

Cindy's all grown up and can think for herself. She does indeed have a horse in this race. She has every right to participate in civil disobience in the name of stopping this illegal war. She's never claimed to be a mouth piece for the democratic party. I don't expect her to be either.

[tx_dem41]

53. There is a difference between not criticizing, and

criticizing those that do.

[beam me up scottie]

73. Just because you refuse to criticize her

that doesn't give you the right to attack those that do.

[Mr_Spock]

81. You attack pretty regularly here - we all have the right to attack here

lighten up! :D

[beam me up scottie]

85. I try to attack the message, not the poster.

There's a difference.

This is the third thread I have seen people pig piling on someone who dared to doubt Cindy's wisdom.

It's frickin getting creepy.

Sorry, but I keep reading all of the complaints about DU on the alternative website and some of them, like this one, are right on.

[beam me up scottie]

72. Who said you were a "ditto headed dumb fuck" ?

Perhaps you would like to read my post again and point it out to me.

[beam me up scottie]

60. Did I say that?

I don't recall giving my opinion on her one way or the other.

I am just disgusted at the fact that some people here believe you have to have a dead kid before you can criticize someone.

Or that you have to have a better plan.

Or else you're a freeper troll.

Or you hate the woman.



If you insert "bush" for "Cindy", you could be in Freeperland.

Because that's how THEY handle criticism of their god.

And I'm sickened by that attitude on DU.


If you or anyone else disagrees with a poster who criticizes Cindy, what gives you the right to attack them?


Like I said before, I'm an atheist and I've never had believers come after me with such fury when I questioned their god.

[walldude]

141. ....

:popcorn:

[LittleClarkie]

61. What about grieving mothers who support the war

are they immune from criticism as well?

[libnnc]

105. I'd never criticize their right to protest.

[hippiechick]

5. I agree with you, Lucky ...

It's just not going to end up good.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. I do worry that it will end up

with more people making fun of her. But I'm not sure I have a better suggestion for how to keep her cause visible.

[LuckyTheDog]

8. My feelings exactly

I'd rather see her take a month off, get some rest and then form an activist organization.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Do you ever get the feeling

her "handlers" are not doing her a lot of good? Her message was pure and they really seem to be diluting it.

[timber84]

12. exactly what I've been thinking

[LuckyTheDog]

13. Not sure

But I think that, while she's been great, she might need to take a step back and think about her long-term strategy.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. I saw her at first as such

a pure, simple voice. But like anything pure and simple, others want in on the act.

[libnnc]

16. but does she really have "handlers" though?

:shrugs:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. I guess she does

but I'm not sure. I think I read (probably on a RW blog so maybe not reliable) that there is a PR firm working with her.

[Matariki]

9. that's right. she had her 15 minutes of fame

what more could she POSSIBLY want?

</sarcasm>

[LuckyTheDog]

11. Not it at all

I just want her to be effective. And I don't think this is the most effective thing she can do. Plus, I don't like seeing her become a lightening rod for the right.

[Shakespeare]

22. "I don't like seeing her become a lightning rod for the right"

Lucky, ANYBODY who opposes this administration becomes a "lightning rod for the right." Why does that bother you so much?

[tsuki]

55. It's not up to you or anyone on this board. She is a grown woman

with the ability to think and act for herself. This constant yanging on this board over what she should or shouldn't do is not productive.

She is not going to march in lockstep with your ideas. She has her own ideas.

[LittleClarkie]

31. That's not what the OP said

You can support a person and not like absolutely everything out of their mouths or absolutely every one of their actions.

I find those who say "She's had her 15 minutes" nearly as obnoxious as you do, but that's not what Lucky is saying. He's just not so sure about this particular tactic, is all.

[Matariki]

92. I understand what he's saying

my first reaction when i saw that Cindy Sheehan was planning on returning to Crawford over thanksgiving was much the same. But thinking about it, I believe that any act of political resistance that worries about ridicule is going to go absolutely nowhere. The reason I chose those words is because what I see in the OP is a sort of embarrassment at her drawing attention to herself. But that's the point isn't it?

[LittleClarkie]

124. Personally, I'm not worried about ridicule. But the original protest was

so powerful, I'd hate to see anything detract from it. I don't know if what she is doing now will have that effect. But that might be the fear of those who are both anti-war and normally support the woman.

[Shakespeare]

15. I support all acts of civil disobedience against this illegal war.

The efficacy of such acts is seldom evident until long after they occur, so to say she shouldn't go through with it is premature, to say the least.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. That's a little like saying Rosa Parks shouldn't have sat in the

front of the bus, or Ghandi shouldn't have marched to he sea and made salt.

Cindy know exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it. She's announced she is going to engage in civil disobedience to help end the war.

Perhaps Rosa was exposed to ridicule for sitting in the front of the bus, in fact, I'm sure she was. So what?

[LuckyTheDog]

23. Different situation

Sorry, but I don't think wishing Sheehan would do something else (just my opinion) requires me to retroactively oppose the actions of Rosa Parks.

If Sheehan goes through with it, you won't find me ridiculing her. But when I read about this, it made me more worried than anything else.

[LittleClarkie]

20. I wish I could get folks to understand

that if someone disagrees with Cindy, it doesn't mean they don't ultimately support her, or that they support the DLC or "Republican lite" Congressfolks, or anything of the sort.

It's just that she's not God. Not everything out of her mouth is golden. Losing a son didn't make her infallible. And I don't have to do what she did to be able to say I'm not sure about some of her words or actions. Because that would mean I'd have to stand in Bush's shoes to criticize him, and who here has done that.

I realize that she involks high emotions. But that gives no one the right to shout down people who have a differing opinion.

Further, I wish folks wouldn't assume that when a person says "I wish Cindy wouldn't do/say that," it doesn't mean in and of itself that the person speaking is pro-war, or doesn't do anything, isn't an activist, or anything else for that matter. You really can't tell such things from a post on a message board. So shouts of "What have YOU done" strike me as somewhat presumptuous.

I fear she has been put up on a pedestal that even she would not want to be on.

[LuckyTheDog]

25. Bravo LittleClarkie

Trust me, I am on Cindy Sheehan's side. I really am. But I would be less than honest if I said I though her plan to tie herself to a fence seemed like a great idea to me.

[beam me up scottie]

63. They attack such posters like a freeper mob.

It's like a cult.

[LittleClarkie]

68. It's like "Why do you hate America"

it's hard to bump up against and have an answer for.

"Do YOU know what it's like to be a grieving mother!" One of these days they're gonna ask that question of an actual grieving mother, and get an earful.

[beam me up scottie]

76. No kidding.

As soon as that happens, they'll change the requirement to two dead kids.

[LittleClarkie]

82. And how about a pro-war grieving mother

Do they count as well? Are we just as emotional about not criticizing them?

[beam me up scottie]

88. They should.

If there was any logic to the meme.

But there isn't.

[Mr_Spock]

74. Cindy isn't GOD?????!!!

Oh, no, say it isn't so :-(

She's is a free person allowed to whatever she peases though - whether I like it or not.

[LittleClarkie]

83. Indeed. And others are also free persons allowed to say "oye"

on occasion.

[Mr_Spock]

87. Absolutely! More "oye's!" than "aye's" may lead to heated discussions

no?

I haven't seen a lot of support threads for Cindy, but you can assume that people are secretly rooting her on and maybe a little miffed at the number of critical threads. She's taking a risk, she may fail, but I'll be damned if I'm going to check in with the "what will appeal to Republicans" police before I do any civil disobedience!

[beam me up scottie]

91. And you can criticize and argue with those posters til the cows come home!

That's what this site is all about.

But the people that attack posters whose opinion is different from theirs need to look up the words "liberal" and "progressive".

Oh, and the DU rules too, while they're at it.

:hi:

[Mr_Spock]

94. Why did you follow me over here?

Do you have an issue with what I was discussing with the other poster? Me and you had a separate discussion going on above - stay out of this one please...

[beam me up scottie]

95. LOL! A "separate discussion" ???

:spray:

What do you think this is, an AOL chat room?

:rofl:

[Mr_Spock]

102. Go away.

.

[beam me up scottie]

104. No.

:evilgrin:

[endarkenment]

24. Ok I give up, why does nonviolent civil disobedience

in the best tradition of Dr. King and Ghandi, expose her to ridicule?

[LuckyTheDog]

26. So... you don't agree with me

That's cool. I can see your point. But I respectfully disagree.

[endarkenment]

28. I asked you to explain why you find he action ridiculous.

You have offered no explanation.

[LuckyTheDog]

I never used the word 'ridiculous' and wouldn't

But I think it could be ineffective and potentially damaging to Ms. Sheehan.

[endarkenment]

35. 'expose her to ridicule'

now you are playing word games. OK I can play. Why do you think it "could be ineffective and potentially damaging to Ms. Sheehan"?

[LuckyTheDog]

37. Ya know what?

I merely shared my sincere concern for Ms. Sheehan. And you are attributing motives to me that I don't have.

It is not a "word game" to say I never called her proposal ridiculous -- I never did. Trust me, I will not be among those hurling insults at her if she ties herself to that fence. But there are those who will --in a very cruel manner. I am not sure she needs to put herself through that. Other actions (such as a campus speaking tour) might be better.

[libnnc]

43. Cindy said herself that she's not afraid

that they've done the worst to her already. She won't be stopped. I don't think she'll be seriously messed with by the authorities. They can't take that kind of heat.

[LuckyTheDog]

48. Hey, you could be right

I was just expressing my reaction to her announcement, that's all.

[endarkenment]

54. Third time:

You have now twice refused to express exactly why you think she would be 'exposed to ridicule', and why you think this act of civil disobedience would be a bad idea.

Why would this action expose Condy to ridicule?

Why do you think this action is a bad idea?

[Mr_Spock]

108. You started this festival, you really should defend your position

"Just because she'll be hurt and it'll be ineffectual" isn't gonna cut it. WHY? What historical evidence do you have to back up your "concern" that set off this thread?

[No Exit]

115. Your'e not sure she needs to put herself through that?

She's already endured the death of her son for a fraudulent war, fought for a fraudulent reason. I seriously doubt that "ridicule" or anything else would faze her after being through that kind of sorrow.

I don't think she needs your "concern". She's got more guts than any poster on an internet forum, that's for sure.

[ray of light]

29. Worse. I think it exposes her to grave danger. My fear is that...

they will use that as an excuse to fire at her.

[endarkenment]

32. that would be very stupid on their part.

Not that they don't do stupid things, but that would be over the top, even for these clowns. I don't think Cindy will get herself killed for chaining herself to the white house fence. If that is your only objection - don't worry.

[Mr_Spock]

128. Oh, c'mon

:rofl:

[Mr_Spock]

78. Hey, if it scares even people here on DU - it must be a good thing

There are ALWAYS the nay-sayers. It's her life and my opinion is just that.

[KittyWampus]

84. how can you compare making a spectacle of yourself (chained to fence)

and gathering your own salt and spinning/weaving your own cloth?

How can you compare something practical like sitting in the front of a bus or sitting at a resturant counter with something that is designed primarily as political theater?

[LittleClarkie]

89. Camp Casey in Crawford had that flavor for me

They were doing nothing wrong, just camping. Left the required space between them and Bush and everything.

They just sat there and asked why. Put up crosses, and had them mowed down by freepers. A freeper in the next yard shooting his gun off. A president on perpetual vacation, talking about moving on.

It was powerful stuff. But getting arrested for doing something illegal doesn't feel the same to me. Of course you will be arrested. You're not supposed to be there. Being civilly disobedient to an unjust law that says you can't sit at a counter is one thing. But there is nothing inherently unjust about being told you can't loiter in front of the White House.

I sorta wish she'd set up a Camp Casey in a grassy area NEAR the White House.

[endarkenment]

154. the salt march and the cloth spinning were both

symbolic acts and political theater. Fence chaining has a long and proud role in the history of nonviolent civil disobedience.

Why chain yourself to the white house fence? To draw attention to your cause and to force the state to commit a public act of state violence (your arrest) in the full glare of the media spotlight.

If it aint't on tv it didn't happen. Sneer all you want at 'political theater' but it is political theater that breaks through the mind numbing media deluge used to control us. It is the outside the norm actions that reach people, cause them to look up from their personal dvd players, their ipods, their mindless prattle on the internet, their addictive content free cell phone yammering, to look up and actually have a thought.

Anything that makes people reflect on the death and destruction we are causing in Iraq is a good thing in my book.

[endarkenment]

27. What are you doing to stop the war? eom.

[beam me up scottie]

What should the op be doing in order to have your permission to criticize?

Do they have to have a dead son, like some suggest, or are there other tests that would qualify them to voice their opinion?

[endarkenment]

143. No.

he can criticize all he wants. He should however be prepared to defend his criticism with valid arguments and, as in this case, positive suggestions for alternative actions.

[cry baby]

34. If you disagree with her decision, what is your suggestion?

What should she do? She started a sit-in at the criminal in chief's house in Tx. and opened herself up to ridicule. Why do you think this is any different?

Mostly, my question is "What is your suggestion?"

[LuckyTheDog]

39. I honestly don't know

Maybe a tour of college campuses to rally young people to get energized for the 2006 election?

[cry baby]

42. That won't end the war asap, don't forget that is her goal...

not to push Dem politics. There are a lot of people that will rally college people. She has a unique role in trying to end the war.

[LuckyTheDog]

46. I get that

Really, I get that. Part of this is a "how will this play in Peoria" reaction. Part of it is, on a personal level, concern for Sheehan. But if she goes through with it, I will post nothing negative about it.

[cry baby]

51. I'm glad you won't be posting negatively, but others will.

Some people just want to criticize and not offer any other brilliant ideas. Someone needs to do something...she is willing to stand in front of the tank, she wants to, she has the press interested, she has the courage to break out of the "candle-light vigil" mode and do something radical.

I don't think anyone will hurt her and she says she isn't afraid. Some people in Peoria will see her courage, some will not. She can't be worried about Peoria other than to try to save the soldiers' lives that are from that part of the country as well as the rest of the US. If she helps Peoria's husbands, children, and other loved ones come home alive and soon, I'm sure they will appreciate what she did.

[ed murrow]

36. Please don't Cindy

I agree. I love Cindy and her movement but she has to realize certain actions help and some don't

The right wingers are already eating this stuff up

Please reconsider Cindy

[cry baby]

44. Who gives a sh*t what right wingers think...they "ate her up"

when she was in Crawford, remember?

[cassiepriam]

40. If the WH ever kills my kid, I will do the same thing, Go Cindy.

As a mom I back you 100%

[txaslftist]

41. Rock on Cindy. Go for it.

At least she has balls.

[beam me up scottie]

67. She's a woman, she doesn't have "balls".

[txaslftist]

146. She has bigger balls than most of the men in Dem leadership.

[Cleita]

45. It's her free choice to do what she thinks is right.

I'm sure many others will join her.

[LittleClarkie]

62. And it's the free choice of others to say "eh, I'm not sure about that"

And expressing such a choice doesn't mean that person is pro-war, or doesn't ultimately support Cindy.

It shouldn't be so binary.

[Shakespeare]

64. However, one would hope....

...that those lodging the criticism would at least be able to explain why they feel the way they do.

Unless and until they can do so, it's just the proverbial turd in the punchbowl.

[LuckyTheDog]

49. I am done with this thread

I said my piece.

If Cindy Sheehan's actions end up rallying people to her side brings about an earlier end to the war, I will be the first to say I was wrong here. But the whole thing worries me, nonetheless.

[nini]

50. What the hell did you expect when you brought up an emotional topic?

:shrug:

[endarkenment]

57. Some people just like to throw rocks.

They rarely stick around to defend their actions.

[beam me up scottie]

71. And some people like to stifle dissent.

Good job.

[stepnw1f]

135. some like to raise it

gee... I wonder why? Merry Fitzmas!

[sufrommich]

56. I don't have real strong feelings either way

For what Sheehan does or doesn't do.I do think that she has spent some of the gravitas that her grief originally brought to the stage by aligning herself with some who are too far left for my comfort level.The people on this board who attempt to shout down anyone who dares question her remind me the freepers who have elevated Terry Schiavo to sainthood.Edited to add missing words.

[oregonindy]

58. Please for the love of god why would it ridicule her and achieve little???

[endarkenment]

59. LuckyTheDog appears to have no answer for that question.

I've tried and all I got was evasiveness.

[oregonindy]

66. yeah I got so frustrated I started another thread.

example
I am begining to hate messages that tell me how a person feels but not why

"I feel that cindy is hurting the movement and will achieve nothing if she ties balloons to her head"

thats great...if you only graduated from the 5th grade or are just trying to stir the pot.

you need to continue with why you feel the way you do so that we understand where your position is coming from.

"I believe she will hurt the movement because balloons are actually a neo-con invention. I further believe she will achieve nothing because she is using these neo-con balloons that actually have pro war statements on them."


yeah its an outlandish example but holy cow people its like being in junior high here sometimes. No thought, no research just pure emotion and I dare say sometimes some obviously baiting forthought.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5154728&mesg_id=5154728

[beam me up scottie]

90. Do we have to fill out an application?

Do we need to spill our guts in order to post an opinion?

Will you pull the threads that don't comply or just attack the poster and question his motives like in this thread?

[oregonindy]

106. No we just have to educate people on critical thinking skills and

then critical writing skills.

[beam me up scottie]

107. Okay, let's start with attacking the person instead of the argument.

Would you like to explain how that sort of behaviour benefits DU?

Or why that method is still used even though it is neither logical nor acceptable?

[endarkenment]

142. Cripes - what a load.

I asked 'lucky' three times why Cindy's proposed act of civil disobedience was the wrong thing to do and he absolutely refused to answer. I did not engage in anything remotely resembling a personal attack until it was clear to me that he was not engaged in honest discourse. My question was motivated by MY INCOMPREHENSION of his main point: that chaining herself to the white house fence in an act of nonviolent civil disobedience was not a good idea. "Why?" was all I asked.

maybe you could answer the question as a stalwart defender of the vanished lucky.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. Eh, she can do whatever she wants.

She'll be untied and arrested.

As others have said here, she's a grown person, this is a free country (um, it is still a free country, right? I keep expecting to wake up one day to find out freedom is totally out of style).

She and a big group could tie themselves up, be untied, arrested and carted off, then another group could come up, tie themselves up, be untied, arrested and carted off, then another group...and so on and so on, like Gandhi and his people, like the people who demonstrated at lunchroom counters during the civil rights movement, etc.

I don't know if it will help, but it would bring more attention to this nasty disgusting war.

[countingbluecars]

69. I support Cindy in this action.

She has done more to bring attention to this unjust war than anyone I know. People need to be reminded that our soldiers and innocent Iraqis are dying every day. So what if some ignorant or misinformed people ridicule her. What else is new? I have a feeling that she can take it.

[WI_DEM]

70. I agree with the OP

It will just open her up to redicule and won't accomplish anything, but it's her decision and if she decides to do it--I will support her.

[Duncan Grant]

75. Alice Paul and the suffragettes had the same problem.

I'm suggesting that Cindy Sheehan is on the right side of history. The short term 'ridicule' is bound to be countered with praise in years to come.

I admire her passion.

[LittleClarkie]

80. I don't see "ridicule" so much as criticism

there is a difference. When I've railed against ridicule of one Dem leader or another (usually Kerry) I've been told that I was abrogating someone right to criticism. This was not ridicule. This was just a suggestion that the OP wasn't completely keen on everything Cindy does.

It apparently depends on the popularity of the subject in question and how high emotions are running.

[Duncan Grant]

130. The OP chose the word 'ridicule'.

Just wanted to be clear that I wasn't putting words in anyone's mouth.

I certainly want to support your willingness to call things to other people's attention; it's absolutely necessary to rail against leaders from time to time. If the criticism is thoughtful and well constructed, it's of benefit to everyone.

I've yet to read a response in this thread that would convince me that Sheehan is doing the wrong thing. What I think I'm seeing are arguments encouraging people to conform (this is the wrong kind of attention - it's a mistake - etc.) Perhaps each of us need to put pressure on this travesty in whatever method seems 'true' for each individual. Maybe then, a critical mass will coalesce and a dramatic shift will occur, creating an end to this illegal war.

[LittleClarkie]

132. Maybe that's my problem then and not Cindy's

Camp Casey in Crawford seemed "truer" to me than the current mode of operation. It was pure. Not politics. Nothing illegal at all. No reason for anyone to bother the camp. So when people did disturb the camp, it was because the message was making them nervous.

I guess I'm pining for yesteryear. You probably can't capture lightning twice, so maybe I should stop hoping for that. Cindy helped flush Bush's poll numbers down the toilet with what she did in Crawford. She started to get the attention of average Americans.

I don't think chaining oneself to the WH fence will have the same effect.

[Duncan Grant]

136. Camp Casey was a more authentic response.

I wish the 'chaining yourself to the fence' would produce a similar response as Camp Casey, too! She's managed to maintain the courage of her convictions though - that's a good sign. I get your point, maybe there's a few more moments of brilliance ahead of us yet (fingers crossed). :hi:

[LittleClarkie]

139. Thank you for getting my point, and me too

That's all I want really. Peace. :hi:

[KittyWampus]

77. Chaining Herself To WH Fence Has Nothing To Do With Her Son

and will provide a needed distraction for the Bush Regime.

A candlight vigil, inspirational speeches, yes.

She should get back to the basics.

[meisje]

86. Lame publicity stunt

[No Exit]

93. If my son had died in this FRAUDULENT war, I'd have done a lot worse.

Leave her alone. BTW, when are YOU going to Iraq to help spread freedom and democracy?

[beam me up scottie]

98. You're suggesting that he should go to Iraq because he criticized Cindy??

Unfuckingreal.

He doesn't HAVE to "leave her alone".

He's got as much right to post his opinion here as you or anybody else without being attacked.

[No Exit]

109. Why the piling on, on Cindy Sheehan?

Has anyone revealed her to be a fraud? Has anyone found that she really didn't have a son who enlisted because of false promises by recruiters, and who then was killed in Iraq?

Why is it that when a non-politico, a little person, an ordinary citizen, dares to open their mouth, people think they can just dismiss her as "some crank" or "some nobody"?

This sort of piling on has a chilling effect on the possibility of ORDINARY CITIZENS finally telling the government that they've had enough. And, frankly, ordinary citizens are our last hope against this murderous administration--because just about all the power people have failed us.

And I don't trust "Lucky Dog". I don't see why a poster has to try to discourage the ordinary citizen from speaking up in a meaningful way, when "Lucky Dog" could better spend his/her time noting the terrible wrongdoing of far more powerful persons such as Tom DeLay, the WHIG group, Bush, Cheney... the list goes on and on.

Any misstep on Cindy Sheehan's part is just a drop in the bucket compared to the flood of corruption that is all around us due to the doings of rich, famous, and well-protected politicians--politicians, who, by the way, have NOT sacrificed THEIR offspring for what they claim to believe in.

Yes--unfuckingreal.

[countingbluecars]

112. Exactly.

I wish I could have put it as well. Thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

118. You suggested he should go to Iraq for criticizing someone.

And you don't think that's a little extreme?


"Why the piling on, on Cindy Sheehan?"

There is none, just people posting opinions.


"Why is it that when a non-politico, a little person, an ordinary citizen, dares to open their mouth, people think they can just dismiss her as "some crank" or "some nobody"?"

Did someone do that?


"This sort of piling on has a chilling effect on the possibility of ORDINARY CITIZENS finally telling the government that they've had enough. And, frankly, ordinary citizens are our last hope against this murderous administration--because just about all the power people have failed us."

Again, what piling on?


"And I don't trust "Lucky Dog". I don't see why a poster has to try to discourage the ordinary citizen from speaking up in a meaningful way, when "Lucky Dog" could better spend his/her time noting the terrible wrongdoing of far more powerful persons such as Tom DeLay, the WHIG group, Bush, Cheney... the list goes on and on."

You don't have to trust anybody.
You do have to respect them and their right to post on this board, however.


"Any misstep on Cindy Sheehan's part is just a drop in the bucket compared to the flood of corruption that is all around us due to the doings of rich, famous, and well-protected politicians--politicians, who, by the way, have NOT sacrificed THEIR offspring for what they claim to believe in."

I have no idea what you just said or what it has to do with my post.

[The Great Deceiver]

97. The more headaches for this admin

the better, is my stance. So it may take Plame, Frist, DeLay, et. al. out of the headlines for a few weeks. It won't take those topics *off the front page*, they'll just be down at the bottom.

I say go for it, Cindy. More powa 2 ya.

[hippiegranny]

99. Cindy Sheehan, Grieving mother.

Who gives a fuck about the "cause" when this is the motivation? She is entitled to her opinion and is supposedly guaranteed free speech. You don't like it? Tough.

[beam me up scottie]

101. And he's not entitled to have an opinion?

Why?

When did DU decide that people can't criticize Cindy?

[No Exit]

110. Do you want a cohesive movement against the war, or not?

What, really, is so terrible about Cindy Sheehan? Especially, compared to the republican politicos who got us into this fraudulent war? My opinion: fight the real enemy.

[LittleClarkie]

113. Who said there was anything "so terrible"

it was just a comment about this one particular action from a person who generally supports Cindy.

Hell, man, I couldn't get a cohesive movement for this last election, why should this be any different. We're the party that allows such dissent remember?

[beam me up scottie]

120. This isn't about me, stop trying to make it so.

If you would breathe first and read my posts, you would notice I said not one word in support of Cindy or against her.

[The Great Deceiver]

103. phew

I was beginning to think I had taken a wrong turn on the "internets" and ended up at "ModerateDemocraticUnderground.com".

Well said!

[LittleClarkie]

111. Do we exempt grieving, pro-war mothers from criticism

by virtue of being grieving mothers?

Also, as opposed to those who might say that Cindy should sit down and shut up, the OP merely said, "Gee, I dunno about this particular action, though I support her as a whole" thus exercising the same guaranteed free speech. Thus, if YOU don't like it, "tough" as well.

[meganmonkey]

100. As always in these threads I will ask the poster to

show me ONE successful peace movement, or other social movement, that occurred without someone breaking the norms, without someone stepping outside of the expectations of BOTH political parties, without some creative civil disobedience.

No one will answer this simple request.

:shrug:

Go Cindy! :patriot:

[No Exit]

116. THANK YOU.

[LittleClarkie]

117. Back in the days of the Vietnam War protest era

a man named John Kerry helped lead a bunch of veterans in a protest that worried Nixon so much that our John made the White House tapes as old Tricky obsessed on the subject.

That didn't exempt Kerry, who'd lost good friends in that war and who'd seen bad things happen, from criticism by those who were supposed to be on his side.

He's an opportunist. This is just a stepping stone to his political career. And so on.

So, can someone show ME an movement filled with thinking people who don't have criticisms of those who are supposed to be on their side? Is that really new either? Did anyone question the commitment of those who criticized Kerry in 1971. Should they have shut up as some have suggested that DUers who dare to suggest that not everything Cindy does is golden have been told to do?

No, I can't show you what you ask. But that's not my point, actually. We've never been a people to lockstep behind anyone. Why now.

[meganmonkey]

123. It isn't about 'being in lockstep'

It's the fact that in being "thinking people who have criticisms of those who are supposed to be on their side", we would be aiming our criticisms at certain other people who are actually elected and paid to represent us and who are doing a horrible job of it. The people who actually have the power to hasten the end to this war and aren't doing so. They owe us some action to end this war. Cindy doesn't owe us anything.

[endarkenment]

148. No one in this thread has suggested you shut up.

You are raising a strawman argument. Several people have asked for an explanation as to why nonviolent civil disobedience is the wrong thing to do, or why this specific act of NCD is wrong, and we have gotten nothing much back in terms of a substantive response. Eventually the lack of response leads to speculation about motivation.

But perhaps I am wrong. Please point me to the post here telling you or others to shut up.

[HEyHEY]

119. You call tying yourself to a fence "breaking the norm"

People have been tying themselves to fences for decades... if she ties herself to Air-force one...I'd be impressed.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Uh oh.

:popcorn:

[meganmonkey]

122. Obviously to a lot of people here it is

Maybe 'norm' wasn't the clearest choice of words - but whatever she is doing is clearly offending the sensibilities of some here. I don't understand it.

Maybe she'll tie herself to Airforce One next, or maybe she will provide inspiration to the person who does...But she is an important part of the anti-war movement, very few people seem to be stepping up the level of protest at all, so I say more power to her :shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

125. Camp Casey wasn't about civil disobedience

I wonder why the change.

And doesn't the mode of civil disobedience usually have something to do with the thing being protested, such as sitting at a counter where morally you should be allowed? Can we claim the same moral right to stand in front of the White House? If so, then I can see the point.

[meganmonkey]

127. The last act of civil disobedience at the White House

when Cindy got arrested with almost 400 other people was quite specific. And for the record, the action was not Cindy's idea, and most of us didn't even know she would be there.

The vast majority of the people who got arrested had contacted the WH in the weeks before to try to get an appointment with the president that day. No one heard back. The goal was to present the names of everyone who died in Iraq. When you include the 100,000+ Iraqis, it is quite a list. Cindy and a group of clergy approached the guard house to request a meeting and were denied. We stayed on the sidewalk and demanded to be heard by the President. He would not hear us, we were given three warnings, and we were arrested.

This was very symbolic of the reality that our President does not listen to the will of the people. Despite the vast majority of Americans wanting an end to this war, he continues to 'stay the course' and he won't back down. He won't talk to the people, not really, just in staged BS sessions...

I don't know her specific premise behind this planned action, but if the President won't listen to the people who (supposedly) elected him democratically, what are we supposed to do?

The White House does NOT belong to the current President, it belongs to the PEOPLE. We need to take it back, one step at a time. Cindy is performing a very vital and important step of this process, IMHO.

[libnnc]

129. so how should she protest the war?

what would be appropriate in your opinion?

I'm really trying to stay civil and not go postal about this. I'm honestly baffled by people who are so adamant about Sheehan watching her Ps and Qs. What does she owe anyone?

[LittleClarkie]

131. Camp Casey

I had thought that when Bush left Crawford and headed for DC, she would follow him, and set up camp there and continue her vigil.

That was the most unforgetable image for me, her on vigil, just a mom who wanted answers.

It's not P's and Q's and appropriateness. It's power and poignancy and effectiveness.

You don't understand people who are not comforable with her present actions and so it seems you don't see that what some of them are saying is that it's more a matter of what worked in the past and taking actions that won't detract from what was a very powerful protest in Crawford.

She wasn't a protester. She was a mom. She wasn't political. She just wanted answers.

In a way, I would have preferred if she would have just continued to follow Bush around like his own personal albatross. Her protest in Crawford was special. I wish she had stayed in that vein.

Maybe it doesn't matter anymore, as I'm not sure who's paying attention anymore but us. We shall see if she makes the news.

[meganmonkey]

133. But that is what she is doing

Camp Casey was set up in DC - it may still be there, I am not sure. It was in the shadow of the Wahington monument. It had all the crosses set up, big tents filled with people and information and comeraderie, and small tents with their own names, like Camp Jason and Camp Brian, that other families of dead soldiers tended.

It was probably the most powerful, special thing I have ever seen.

I hope it is still there - I heard that the permit was running out but they were planning on keeping it up anyway.

She is still just a mom trying to get answers from her president, who sent her son to die for lies.

[LittleClarkie]

134. Glad to hear it and I hope so

Peace out.

[bluedog]

126. don't know about this

the media may cover the first arrest when cindy is arrested..but they will not cover the on going chain and arrest events......

why?.....the public tires fast of the same story.....

the media will just say the antiwar protester...bla bla bla......there probably will be no follow up.or stand off.like with the Crawford protest........
theres more hot news on the incoming list......
and like it or not........this may not have the result one would expect.

Cindy can do as she wants...its a free country......thats her choice.....

people will make up their own mind...........but the right wing will and we all know this..will use one of these pictures against the Democratic party and against Moveon....they pull no punches.......and they don't care if the smear is based on lies or not.....

So what ever happens.happens.....

[stepnw1f]

137. Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum

I smell desperation from some dumb dumb...

divide and conquer?

[bloom]

138. No - not like you. I'm happy to have Cindy do whatever she wants

to get attention.

It's not like there is anyone else making a stronger statement.


But go ahead and criticize her. Hey - criticize Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. if you want to. It's a free country. I won't stop you. Some people like to pile on Jesse Jackson for his photo ops.
Do they think everyone should just stay home and write their congresspeople? Lot of good thats doing.

Yeah lets all criticize the people making an effort and criticize those who stand up for those people - that will help the cause. :eyes:

[walldude]

140. You want to know what really pisses me off?

People who think Cindy has "jumped the shark". Most people close to Cindy don't want her to do this either. But they are not worried about the "movement", her handlers, how this looks, how it might give ammo to the right, or any of that shit. They are worried about CINDY. How much can she possibly take. She lost Casey, she's getting divorced, she's been a lightning rod for right-wing attack machine, she's been arrested once already, and noone can seem to talk her out of this. This is like the third thread on this crap already. Enough!!!!!! Let it be. She is doing what she thinks she needs to be doing, and nobody is going to stop her. Unless you lost a child in Iraq than you can't possibly understand her so give it up. She single handedly jump started the anti-war movement, and every one of you who want to stop this war OWE HER for that!!!! You may not like what she is doing but there is no need to keep up this pointless debate. Cut it the fuck out. After reading through all these threads I have come to realize that the motives for these threads are purely selfish bullshit. Those of you who think it will hurt the movement, or, achieve little, or turn people against her ought to examine your motives for your "outrage". If this is what Cindy needs to do to ease her pain then I will support her, I may not agree with it but I will certainly be there if she needs me...

[zanne]

145. It's bad timing.

But I would support her efforts.

[endarkenment]

147. Bad timing?

:wtf:

This is timed around the 2000 wasted american lives milestone. What are you doing about the war? What is your suggestion for actions?

[zanne]

151. I mentioned that it was bad timing...

Because of the Plame indictments coming up. But I know what you mean; she didn't pick the timing of the 2,000th soldier to die. My bad.

[endarkenment]

152. As far as I am concerned

this is a 'pile on cindy' disinformation thread. Please don't play their game. There are enough deluded du'ers playing already.

[npincus]

149. I think it's GREAT... call it the "Pile On" Effect

Cindy is a finger in the eye of the Chimp admin that will keep poking and poking and poking away, while the many GOP scandals, indictments and disgrace pile up and pile on... the cumulative effect of which will be that Americans will finally 'get' the imcompetence and corruption of this WH and DEMAND action on the Iraq war (call it a 'timetable', call it 'withdrawal' call it an 'end game'- whatever).

I think Cindy is a true American hero and this is not a 'stunt'- it is an act of defiance and outrage. How many would be willing to do such a thing?

You GO, girl!

[endarkenment]

150. No you don't understand

it is not precisely what we want her to do. We have this big list and it has all of the things Cindy should do on it and this is not one of them. A woman of her stature should not be chaining herself to fences, at least not in October. Fashion dictates that she should do this only between June and September.

Does anybody know what she will be wearing? She needs to submit her fashion choices for our approval before she goes out in public.

[npincus]

153. i'd say autumnal burnt-orange is the color to watch this season

with a wind-swept coif, and perhaps a blue, paisley patterned pashima to accent her ensemble.

[KG]

155. just so long as she isn't wearing tie-dye!

that might offend someone, somewhere! :eyes:

[endarkenment]

156. indeed we've already been told here

that old hippies in their tie-dye and beads are NOT WELCOME at proper protests, as it SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE.

[kentuck]

157. Bad timing...

Too much other stuff going on... danger of being ignored.