Baby boomers - Wreck of the Edmund Fitgerald....anyone know what cargo

[blm]

was being carried at the time? It was pretty industrial in that area at the time - 70% of this nation's industry was within a 500mile radius of Cleveland at the time.

I am wondering now what cargo was being carried and if it could have had some cargo that may have been the cause of the dead spots in Lake Erie and other Great Lakes today. Or what was carried on other ships that have gone down in those lakes.

I'm betting 180 would know about this during that industrial heavy time.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Iron ore

I believe

[CottonBear]

2. Iron ore? I'll google it. The cargo was taconite pellets. Here's links:

The ship was a bulk ore carrier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Edmund_Fitzgerald

From the NTSB Report:

About 1915 EST., on November 10, 1975, the Great Lakes bulk cargo vessel SS EDMUND FITZGERALD, fully loaded with a cargo of taconite pellets, sank in eastern Lake Superior in position 46 59.91 N, 85 06.6’W, approximately 17 miles from the entrance to Whitefish Bay, Michigan.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBSHIPWRECKS/EdmundFitzgeraldNTSBReport.html

[tonkatoy57]

3. Iron Ore I Think

nt

[Cactus44]

4. 26,000 tons of iron ore. n/m

.

[HereSince1628]

9. well, specifically 26,000 tons more than the E.F. weighed empty

I always wondered if we were supposed to use the E.F.'s empty weight as the tare or if the iron was 266K plus the empty weight.

[Howardx]

5. googled

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/fitz.html

On November 9, 1975 she departed from Superior, WI with approximately 26,000 tons of ore bound for Detroit MI.

[blm]

10. The song says it was headed to Cleveland....oops...no it doesn't.

Lyrics posted below.

[KC21304]

39. You were right the first time.

Yes it does say Cleveland.

[blm]

43. Ugh...which version is real now?

.

[KC21304]

47. This is from lyrics below.

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ships bell rang
Could it be the North Wind they'd been feeling.

The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound
And a wave broke over the railing
And every man knew, as the Captain did, too,
T'was the witch of November come stealing.

[mn723]

6. The Edmund Fitz

sank in Lake Superior

[MidwestTransplant]

13. Oh yes, Lake Shegumy!

[mn723]

34. I don't get it

Lake Shegumy?

[displacedtexan]

45. Lake Superior (known as Gitchigume in a Native American language)

http://nirobota.blogspot.com/2005/09/lake-superior-known-as-gitchigume-in.html

[Deep13]

7. "With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more..."

...than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty."
That's what the Gordon Lightfoot song says. So the ore weighed 26K tons plus whatever the empty ship weighed.

I don't think there is any mystery to the dead spots. Algae grows in polluted areas and sucks up the oxygen so nothing else can live.

[displacedtexan]

8. A load of iron ore 26,000 tons more than the EF weighed empty.

Is this a story (math) problem?

[blm]

12. Just never heard all the lyrics to the song really.

.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. Here are the lyrics. :)

The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald

by Gordon Lightfoot

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy.

With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early

The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconson
As the big freighters go it was bigger than most
With a crew and the Captain well seasoned.

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ships bell rang
Could it be the North Wind they'd been feeling.

The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound
And a wave broke over the railing
And every man knew, as the Captain did, too,
T'was the witch of November come stealing.

The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait
When the gales of November came slashing
When afternoon came it was freezing rain
In the face of a hurricane West Wind

When supper time came the old cook came on deck
Saying fellows it's too rough to feed ya
At 7PM a main hatchway caved in
He said fellas it's been good to know ya.

The Captain wired in he had water coming in
And the good ship and crew was in peril
And later that night when his lights went out of sight
Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Does anyone know where the love of God goes
When the words turn the minutes to hours
The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
If they'd fifteen more miles behind her.

They might have split up or they might have capsized
They may have broke deep and took water
And all that remains is the faces and the names
Of the wives and the sons and the daughters.

Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings
In the ruins of her ice water mansion
Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams,
The islands and bays are for sportsmen.

And farther below Lake Ontario
Takes in what Lake Erie can send her
And the iron boats go as the mariners all know
With the gales of November remembered.

In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed
In the Maritime Sailors' Cathedral
The church bell chimed, 'til it rang 29 times
For each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald.

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
Superior, they say, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early.

[blm]

17. Thanks. First time I ever read the actual lyrics. Pretty damn haunting.

It sure will play differently now that I understand all the words.

[PerpetualWinter]

55. Definititely a bit haunting...

of course, I was down on the shores of Superior yesterday (I live near Marquette, MI one of the ports with Iron Ore docks on Lake Superior) and saw this:



As far as I know the current largest non-sea faring vessel in the world.

Around here the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald is more than just a legend. When it went down all the church bells in the area rang 29 times in honor of the dead (this was admittedly before I was born). I've known a lot of merchant mariners that travelled the lakes as well so stuff like that hits closer to home up here than in a lot of areas (as is true throughout the north Midwestern iron ranges). Of course, its just another reason to respect the power of the lake. Not that we actually need it, considering if you've lived near it as long as I have you've seen the power again and again.

[etherealtruth]

59. Knowing the haunting majesty of Lake Superior itself ...

... adds even more impact to the song. Rarely a summer goes by that "the kids" and I don't visit the lake ... we have a special affinity for Whitefish Point.

[PerpetualWinter]

65. I have a very special affinity for the Lake in general...

as well as the northern forest that surrounds it. I love sitting on the shores of Superior smoking a good cigar (or something else) and just relaxing.

[etherealtruth]

66. It can be a very spiritual place ...

Forgive my manners ... Welcome to DU :hi:

[PerpetualWinter]

76. Don't worry about it...

my manners are general shit from years of BB use and abuse. I don't welcome or anything like that generally and I don't expect it.

However, thank you. I'm somewhat enjoying my stay so far.

[blm]

68. I grew up just south of downtown Cleveland.

.

[semillama]

40. I have alcohol-soaked memories of this tune

getting really ripped with my friends and going to listen to this local folk singer in Houghton, Michigan, named Rob Fritz. We'd all wait until Rob was really drunk too and start yelling for him to play it. Always was a huge hit.

[Love Bug]

57. I've driven by the Maritime Sailors Cathedral dozens of times

It's in Detroit right next to the entrance to the tunnel to Canada. As a kid we would drive by it on our way to visit relatives in Windsor and I would wonder by Sailors needed their own church.

[CottonBear]

11. Taconite pellets: Here's a link to the NTSB Report:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBSHIPWRECKS/EdmundFitzgeraldNTSBReport.html

[TiredOfLies]

15. we know what the official

report told the people, but i still wonder what the real cargo was. Isn't what the Lusitania was carring besides passengers still up for grabs, I read that it went down so fast that the german sub captian couldn't believe it wasn't carring ammo.

[NoPasaran]

22. Yeah

The "official" report "neglected" to mention that the dead alien remains had been "accidentally" left off the ship's manifest, didn't it?
:tinfoilhat:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. There was a program on Discovery or the History Channel

about the wreck. Divers finally found the wreck. I believe it broke deep and took water was the conclusion.

Welcome to DU!:)

[ProfessorGAC]

30. I Saw That Too! The Way They Explained The Best Theory. . .

. . .was the boat got lifted onto two huge waves, one which lifted the bow and the other which lifted the stern.

There was nothing supporting the entire middle 50% of the boat (they're sure not built to do that!), and it simply broke in half.

On that documentary, they did a computer model of what this would have looked like. The model ended up with two halves that looked remarkably like what the divers found!

That was an excellent show.
The Professor

[Lexingtonian]

29. eh, let it be....

Ships carrying large cargos of ores or metal parts have a way of abruptly sinking in lengthy storms and utterly vanishing, taking everyone with them.

It comes down to incremental shift of heavy loads consisting of very dense, particulate. material. There is very literally a sharp tipping point between where a ship can resist the gravitational torque of an imbalanced/shifted cargo and it can't. When that point is reached it just spins the 90 degrees or 180 degrees and fills with water in seconds. The crew can very rarely assess when that amount of load shift has taken place, if they notice the load shifting at all, and even if/when they do they rarely have more than seconds left to get off the ship.

[PerpetualWinter]

56. I hope you aren't serious...

otherwise you are simply one of those wacky conspiracy nuts. Then again, maybe all the iron mines I grew up near are really covert arms factories and all the miners and merchant mariners I know are covert government employees (and damn fine liars).

I promise you it was iron ore. Then again, maybe there is a conspiracy since you are no longer allowed to explore the wreckage. Now I'm sure its a government conspiracy, I mean why else would the families of the deceased Edmund Fitzgerald crew have won the right to close the site to diving.

[whatever4]

16. Such a beautiful song. Glad to see the question was answered nm

[blm]

18. I guess only answered by OFFICIAL stories which we know now aren't always

true.

Now I wonder what the early environmental "conspiracy theorists" for the time had to say.

[whatever4]

24. and the sad part it, it's the least of our problems

Would that our most pressing problems were water pollution and severe types of toxic damage to waters, which I think you're discussing. When I think about the damage in the Gulf Coast, it all turns into one big mess in my mind. When I ADD depleted uranium into it, well...

I think the aliens breeding us for food must have a far different chemistry to need as many nutrients we're ingesting as poisons. We're being fortified? Not with iron, oh no, iron must not be what they like.

So, *laughing* since they don't like iron, I think that must be nothing to worry about, that old iron wreck.

Don't mind me, sorry, I'm being silly, I just can't get over the toxic elements and chemicals as being all their vitamins and minerals, the thought just cracks me up.

Not that I said I didn't believe it. Or that I do. It's not even original with me, the human-eating aliens. But one of every six women of child-bearing age has brain-damaging levels of mercury in our nation, and the lead problems, worse here in Missouri overall, then all the toxins we're finding out about every day. Just makes me laugh. The Gulf has the most horrible combination I've ever heard of. Toxic chemicals of natural and artificial kinds, and biological, then added heat, I can't imagine the stew.

I wonder if any of us are for kids, some for older, some for the more active individual? Are some of us "stress formula" human feed?

If so, I hope I don't live to find out :)

[Alpharetta]

19. Yeah. But did Sundown go creeping down my back stairs?

[HereSince1628]

21. No, it was lost in a Summer Time Dream

[SidDithers]

33. Ah, You could read my mind. nt

Sid

[Arugula Latte]

64. And what a tale your thoughts are telling! n/t

[elehhhhna]

20. good luck--the Great Lakes have more shipwrecks than any other bodies

of water, iirc.

The cold freshwater keeps the wrecks in excellent condition (ocean wrecks disintegrate) and many can bee seen, snorkeled, and scubaed (brrrr) in less than 100 feet of water, often very close to shore. My sis kayaks over a big one near Dempster beach in Evanston (Il.)
Hubs has scubaed many, many, many more.

There are thousands of wrecks in Lake Michigan alone.

If you make a project out of this, you will be very busy! I'm betting you're on to something.

[noonwitch]

25. Lake Huron has a bunch of them, too

Near Alpena, there is a protected area with a bunch of them. I think there are some you can scuba dive to off of Sleeping Bear/Manitou Islands in Lake Michigan.

[elehhhhna]

28. They all do, and I think my hubs dove the one/s near Alpena!

[Lexingtonian]

32. Lake Erie is the graveyard among graveyards

It's the shallowest and seemingly most peaceful of them all. But the shallowness allows for really monstrous wave heights when storms sweep across the lake. Not knowing that has done in an awful lot of pleasure boaters.

[msrbly]

23. Baby Boomers???

I thought it was required Michgian History for every kid growing up in Michigan since 1975 to know the details, including the song lyrics, of the Edmund Fitzgerald. The Edmund Fitzgerald was leaving the UP on "Lake Gitche Gumee" (aka Lake Superior) with a load of iron ore.

[knitter4democracy]

31. We had to.

We would cover it during Michigan week every year along with everything and anything else in state history they could throw at us. It made me a shipwreck research junkie for a few years, and I'm only 31.

[KC21304]

38. Hey, don't forget about Wisconsin !

Part of Lake Superior belongs to us. The shoreline that is. And the song says she left from some mill in Wisconsin. Just don't get no respect around here. :)

On edit #5 says google says Superior Wi.

[blm]

41. Don't forget Poland.

;)

There's a Poland, Ohio isn't there?

[PerpetualWinter]

58. Except it didn't exactly leave a mill...

It left this:



(actually those are the docks in Duluth, MN right near there)

There aren't many steel mills up here, let alone steel mills near the water. Its all mined here and sent through the mills down south.

[KC21304]

63. Yes, I wondered why he said that. He could have

said " some port in Wisconsin" and kept the same cadence.

[notadmblnd]

26. and the reason no bodies were recovered

is that Lake superior is so cold that bodies are unable to create the bacteria and gases that would normally cause a body to float to the top.

[LibertyLover]

35. Remains

If I recall, when the wreck of the EF was found, the corner of one photograph seemed to show the remains of a crew member. Apparently several other did as well and were not released, which I thought was very respectful.

[notadmblnd]

36. Thanks, I was looking for a more genteel term

at the time of my posting, but for the life of me I couldn't.

note to self: must try to be more PC at DU.

[LittleWoman]

37. Whitefish Point is the closest land to where the ship went down

My husband, daughter and I were up there a few years ago. There is a lighthouse at Whitefish Point and a museum with a lot of information about all the wrecks off the point. During the November storm season, this is a very treacherous part of the lake. I believe the Edmund Fitzgerald went down because the owners tried to take one last run before winter set in and the crew lost the gamble. We were there in late August and the weather was beautiful and the shore along that part of the lake is a nice sandy beach. The north shore of Lake Superior is very rocky with many cliffs etc. and looks much more dangerous. There is a large submerged island like area out in the middle of the lake just north of center I believe and there were many wrecks in the very early days before the lake was properly charted.

As a sidelight, my daughter was rock climbing with friends in Kentucky this weekend and the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald came on the radio. Her friends were making fun of her because she knew all the words and knew all about Gordon Lightfoot. When our kids were young we used to go to a place on the North Shore of Superior near Nipigon, Ont. and stay in a cabin for about a week. The only way I could get them to settle down at night was to play Gordon Lightfoot tapes for them. That far north it stayed light very late, I believe this area is the farthest west you can go and still be in the Eastern time zone. Our kids grew up in Ohio--definitely not Michigan!--but many in the Toledo area remember the ship well as many of the crew were from that area.

If you are interested in Great Lakes shipping you might be interested in this web site <http://www.duluthshippingnews.com> I hope to spend my golden years watching the ships come and go through the Duluth Harbor.

[susanna]

49. Whitefish Point is also the last known distress call...

...for the Edmund Fitzgerald. They were not that far out and hoped to make it to Whitefish Bay to anchor into the wind and save the ship.

Whitefish Point has an amazing museum. I still get chills seeing the Edmund Fitzgerald's bell there. There is also a floating freighter museum up in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan (Valley Camp?) that used to haul iron ore. It has a couple of the Fitzgerald's lifeboats (they are quite torn up) on display. They washed up on local beaches after the foundering. Quite a sobering sight, if I do say so myself.

[Neil Lisst]

42. I love that song, and Gordon Lightfoot is solid

I have a friend in Toronto who has a locker next to Gordon Lightfoot at the club where both work out. He's in his 60s now, and apparently he takes a lot better care of himself.

I have a CD of his I listen to now and then. The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is a classic, IMO. I never tire of hearing its poignant story and sound.

[Jose Diablo]

67. Another of Lightfoot's songs is Cherokee Bend

"His father was a man who could never understand
The shame on a red man’s face
So they lived in the hills and they never came down
But to trade in the white man’s place
It was early in the spring when the snow had disappeared
They came down with a bag of skins
In the fall of the year of 1910
Daddy died by the rope down in cherokee bend.

Daddy didn’t like what the white man said
’bout the dirty little kid at his side
Daddy didn’t like what the white man did
Nor the deal or the way that he lied
There was blood on the floor of the government store
When the men took his daddy away
But the boy stayed back till he come to his end
And he run like the wind from cherokee bend.

Now the mother was alone and the winter was at hand
And she prayed to her spirit kin
It was warm in the lodge in the kentucky hills
On the day when the boy came in

Then a blizzard came down and it covered up the door
Till they thought that it never would end
And he told her the tale of the terrible affair
In the government store down in cherokee bend

Daddy didn’t like what the white man said
’bout the dirty little kid at his side
Daddy didn’t like what the white man did
Nor the deal or the way that he lied

For three long days and three long nights
They wept and they mourned and then
She returned to her work and her weavin’
And they tried to forget about cherokee bend

Now the boy wasn’t big but he hunted what he could
And they lived for a time that way
But the food run low and the meat went bad
And she said to the boy one day

I’m leaving tonight and I never will return
From the land of my spirit kin
You must take what you need and trade what you can
For a red man’s grave down in cherokee bend

It wasn’t very long till she closed her eyes
And he wrapped her in a robe
He found her a place on the side of the hill
And he buried her in the snow

Early in the spring he was seen in the town
With his load looking ragged and thin
Not a year had gone by till he stood once again
In the government store down in cherokee bend

He was ten years tall and a redskin too
So he hadn’t much face to save
And the men sat around and they laughed and they clowned
At the talk of a criminal’s grave

Then the man from the east didn’t smile when he said
You’re the son of that indian scum
If you value your hide then you better abide
By the white man’s rules here in cherokee bend.

Daddy didn’t like what the white man said
’bout the dirty little kid at his side
Daddy didn’t like what the white man did
Nor the deal or the way that he lied

And he spit on the floor of the government store
And it served him to no good end
At the close of the day they had taken him away
To the white man’s school down at cherokee bend

It’s been 21 years since the boy disappeared
Where he run to, nobody knows
But they say he fell in with a man named jim
And he rides in the rodeos

And they say he returns all alone to a place
Hidden deep in the kentucky glen
And it’s pretty well known who hauled up the stone
To the grave on the hill above cherokee bend

Daddy didn’t like what the white man said
’bout the dirty little kid at his side
Daddy didn’t like what the white man did
Nor the deal or the way that he lied

There was blood on the floor of the government store
When the men took his daddy away
It was 1910 and they never had a friend
When he died by the rope down at cherokee bend
It was 1910 and they never had a friend
When he died by the rope down at cherokee bend"


I don't think the rest of the world and especially Europeans understand Americans. They underestimate the emotions and drive that make us what we are.

The red man and Europeans are now pretty much mixed together as are a lot of Africans and Asians. We are real mutts. But oftentimes the best dogs are mixes of purebreeds.

[cascadiance]

44. Would it now be the "Wreck of the Edmonds Fitzgerald!"?!

That is if Fitz is allowed to get testimony from Sibel Edmonds soon?

I saw this thread and immediately thought that it was about that play on words! Hope that would be a Rove and GOP wreck when that happens!

I did love that Lightfoot song. Was my fave of his back in college days... Maybe we need to do some new lyrics to this song if the big Hammer of Justice comes down (and we're not talking about Delay!)

[txaslftist]

46. A load of iron ore, 26,000 tons more than the EF weighed empty.

[susanna]

50. "That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed...

...when the gales of November came early."

[susanna]

48. I live about four blocks...

from where the Edmund Fitzgerald was built/launched.

My next-door neighbor's father helped build it. My neighbor was there when it was launched...

As for the phrase "Gitche Gumee" (spelling might be wrong), it is an Ojibway (Chippewa) word. From what I understand, its meaning is "big water." (That pretty much sums up Lake Superior for those who have never seen it.)

I am a "boat nerd" here in Michigan. I live a block off the Detroit River and see freighters come through all the time. :-)

[blm]

51. maybe you can fill us in on some of the ships that went down

in the Great Lakes, and exactly what cargo they were hauling.

Of course, if it was secret govt. cargo, there would probably be no listing for it to be found.

[Bridget Burke]

54. Here's an interesting site with many links....

Research might produce better results than asking what "baby boomers" remember. (The site offers "Boat Nerd" T-shirts. Cool!)

www.boatnerd.com/default.htm

Check into boats dumping toxic waste into the Lakes while salvaging stolen gold & using a "ghost ship" to protect their project. No, wait--that plot was used in "Due South." (Paul Gross planned to use the Edmund Fitzgerald as the ghost ship; interviews with families of the dead dissuaded him.)

[blm]

69. Actually, I wonder about ALL the stories surrounding the various ships

because we know now that quite often the OFFICIAL story can be wrong or calculated to be misleading. You can generally get the skeptic's view here at DU along with the official story.

[Bridget Burke]

70. We don't invent skeptical viewpoints here.

Generally, they are loose in the general population first. Do some research. Is anybody else asking your question?

As the song says, the Lakes can be dangerous.

[blm]

72. I never expect them to be invented here, but I do know that there are a

few old sailors from the Great Lakes region who post here.


You never know.

[susanna]

79. Well, there are lots of historical sites and museums...

...with information about wrecks of the Great Lakes. Recorded shipwrecks on the Lakes go back at least a couple of centuries for larger cargo and/or passenger vessels. (I can't imagine how many smaller craft from native tribes, loggers and trappers might litter the lake floors.)

Regarding your question about what cargo a ship is carrying...my guess is that all that would be known about cargo is what was noted on the manifest kept by the shipping company. Any physical proof of contraband or suspicious cargo would go down with the ship, so to speak...

[Bridget Burke]

52. Raised in Texas, I can understand why they are the "Great" Lakes.

Down here, most of our lakes are dammed up rivers. Except for Caddo Lake--known for moss-draped cypress trees & alligators. (No, the alligators aren't moss-draped.)

Here are some amazing satellite shots of the Lakes--& other places:

www.ssec.wisc.edu/~gumley/modis_gallery/

I once changed planes at O'Hare on the way East. Just flying over Lake Michigan impressed the heck out of me. I'd like to see more of the Lakes.

[PerpetualWinter]

60. Raised on Lake Superior...

I can also tell you why they are the Great Lakes, and why Lake Superior is so fittingly named. I'll take Lake Superior over the ocean anyday, of course, I'm not a huge fan of salt water. I'd rather something with most of the benefits (albeit generally colder) and freshwater.

[susanna]

80. You should definitely come check the Lakes out!

If you thought Lake Michigan was something, you would be amazed at Lake Superior. It's just breathtaking, really. I think the best thing about the Great Lakes is the unique personality (yep, I'm serious) of each one. :-)

[Jose Diablo]

62. Detroit in French means "by the river" or something similar

Their is/was a mariners chapel by Hart Plaza and the RenCen downtown. It's kinda interesting to visit.

I love Detroit, so much history in that few square miles downtown. The wars fought. Look likes it will be ground zero on the next people vs corporation battle too.

It sounds strange, but I think Detroit is one city that has a soul. Sometimes you can see them rise from the steam tunnels beneath the city, before first light in the autumn/winter.

[Faygo Kid]

71. Very poetic. Mariner's Church still stands.

This Detroiter thanks you. If only they had built the RenCen on the other side of Jefferson, and kept the river side open. Damn.

[Jose Diablo]

75. In the summer, they used to have fireworks from a barge in the river

Straight-out from Hart Plaza. I remember one time going there and the people were packed wall to wall all the way from Cobo to the RenCen to watch the fireworks in the evening. There had to be 250-300,000 people. It was something.

Also in the summer, we would go to that fountain at the foot of Woodward at lunch time. The ladies would dance in the water, in the fountain. Detroit was a fun place to work, downtown that is.

The music, in the 70's. I remember when Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band played Cobo. Wow. "Better watch-out for the police, when cruisin through Nutbush, look out!!!" Naw, the police were cool too. One of my best buds from HS was a cop in Detroit.

And Belle Isle at night. It was perfect for taking that someone very special.

I can never figure out why people bad mouth Detroit so much. I had nothing but a blast when I was there. I am sure it's just as good now. Sometimes we just have to look, to see the good.

[Faygo Kid]

78. Still have the fireworks. Come back; when you do, we'll make it good.

Maybe Greektown; maybe a jazz bar. Detroit breaks my heart, but the soul is indeed there. Ain't that peculiar.

[susanna]

81. Yes to both these posts...

Jose: ...yep, Detroit has a soul, and an amazingly long history.

faygokid: love Mariner's Church. A good friend of my husband's was married there.

For those interested, Mariner's church hosts a memorial service each year for the Edmund Fitzgerald. More info at: http://marinerschurchofdetroit.org/services.htm

[InkAddict]

53. Witch of November comin' early to a theatre near you

Please pass the popcorn!

Community Sadness - The bells pealed in Fairport Harbor, Ohio, too! A sad day in Lake County for them wives, sons, and daughters.

[Jose Diablo]

61. Iron ore, from Duluth being taken to the steel factories.

And Lake Superior never gives-up her dead. It's very cold at the bottom of that lake. Bodies can not bloat and rise to the surface because the bacteria cannot do what it does.

Lake Superior is beautiful, tempermental and cold hearted. She's a lady that demands and gets, respect.

[bobbieinok]

73. 1st heard the song and about the wreck in 76-77 while in Newfoundland

on sabbatical

it's a haunting song

edited b/c of dates and spelling

[akarnitz]

83. I love it, too, but overexposure can cause severe nausea.

I've got Yooper roots and traveled up there(Michigan's Upper Peninsula-U.P. for short, thus one is a Yooper)extensively. I swear to God that in the late '70's there must have been a law demanding that song be played once an hour on every radio station up there. But I exagerate.....

The Great Lakes turn very ugly at times. I've seen it on Lake Michigan a lot. Every now and then there are waves good enough to surf(Grand Haven Pier and Port Sheldon are prime spots). But Red flag warnings are always posted when surfing's at it best here. Back to the point, my parents lost a few friends and acquaintances who were swept off Pere Marquette(Muskegon)Pier and drowned while fishing. I've seen the 12-15 foot swells on Lake Superior. It's quite the daunting spectacle. The lake always looks black to me, anyway, and, on those windy days, it's whitecapped to the horizon- the most awesome sight I've ever seen.

[Debs]

74. Iron ore

Specifically in the form of Taconite, which is shipped in the form of small irregular spheres

[hedgehog]

77. Did that wreck hit us rust belters in s special way, and why?

Was it because those sailors were just a bunch of working stiffs tied to the minesthe mills and the plants like the rest of us? In a way, those bells rang out for an entire way of life that is gone now.

[Giant Robot]

84. I'm not sure why it hit us all so hard

I have a vague theory about it being tied into some type of innate romance we have with ships. From people I have known, including my sainted father who worked in the Philadelphia shipyards on the USS Kitty Hawk, people feel an affinity for the ships in their lives, like a friend or family member. I would broaden that to the people that worked on the building it, the people who crewed it, the people who loaded it, etc. It become a big net drawing in all around it. I think that has more to do with it than anything else. I also suspect it had a lot to do with our hubris in the face of nature, and getting a great big F-U by it. For all our technology and scientific achievements, they were worthless when it came to the gales of November.

I would like to give a big hello to all my fellow Michigan residents from a Traverse City boy here. I'm not on the shores of Superior but Ive been up there enough. It is beautiful and cold and majestic all at the same time.

I'm actually a shipwreck nerd. I don't like boats too much until they are lying on the bottom for some strange reason. The Fitz had three different reports written about it, one from the Coast Guard, on from the GL shipping association(blanking on their name), and one commissioned by the families, if I recall correctly. All three gave different reasons for the sinking. I don't think we will ever know what happened that night, but I guess I would agree that it had more to do with the waves that night than anything to do with the crew and faulty hatch covers.

And as another aside, I still cry hearing Lightfoot's song, which I invariable do every November.

[jim3775]

82. Hell, the taconite tailing pond is far worse for the lake

I live on lake Superior, there have been probably been about 100 shipwrecks in the lake, it's mainly the industry along the shore that is the cause of the problem. Here in Thunder Bay there was a small spill the created a contained "chemical blob" that was so thick and viscous that is was entirely encircled and coralled to prevent it from floating down the shore.

The taconite ponds are another crazy story; years and years ago in Silver Bay MN a taconite (mineral used in the smelting of steel, i think) mine opened up. When taconite is mined the byproducts or tailings were dumped into the lake, finally after years went by some scientist realized that the insanely high cancer rate in Silver Bay was because the tailings were essentially asbestos. So after 30 years of litigation the mine was mandated to contain the tailings in a big dangerous carcinogenic pond.