About Louis Farrakhan........

[BronxBoy]

I was actually composing this post as a reply to a thread where someone asked "Why do people like Louis Farrakhan?" In my opinion, that's the wrong questions. The real question is how have progressives and all others concerned with LF's known bigotry allow such a vacuum to be created that Farrakhan can still have millions of Black people want to hear what he has to say, whether they like him or not.

Look LF has never had a substantial or significant following in the Black community. Whether you like it or not the Black religious experience will always be a Christian experience. And I find it interesting if you look at Black culture, that Christian experience seems to be deepening. So Black folk aren't going to sign up with NOI in droves because they have in interest in what LF has to say. But recent events have probably given LF inroads that he might not have otherwise had.

And like it or not, LF has proven that he has the ability to pull a broad cross section of Black people together. If you took the time to watch any of the march yesterday, you had to be struck by the very broad representation of various groups that they were able to pull together. I've been trying to respond to any LF thread to remind people that the real issue, especially, after Katrina is that we have to stay focused on the message and not the messenger. If there is an overwhelming feeling in the Black community after Katrina, it's that we were left to die in NOLA and that anyone who even had a smidgen of an illusion that we could get a fair shake in this country had that illusion ground into dust. So when one of the first things that LF says in his speech was that FEMA seemed to work just fine when four hurricanes hit Florida last year, it resonates very deeply with Black folk whether they like the man or not.

LF and the Nation of Islam have also been very, very good at attracting segments of the Black community that have always been felt put upon, prisoners and rappers being to of the more important ones. I'm old school so I really don't listen to rap (Jazz, Blues and Old School Jams for me). But that is starting to change. Rap is a worldwide musical force right now. The NY Times even had an article about the proliferation of Palestinian rap groups. And quite frankly, it is a tremendous force that is often neglected and demonized by the mainstream political parties. Say what you want about rap: But Kanye West goes on national TV and says that "Bush doesn't like Black people" and his cd goes platinum that same week. That ain't a coincidence. And who was one of the first organizations to really reach out and embrace the Hip Hop Generation? None other than LF and the NOI. Meanwhile, when it was convenient, the Dems had absolutely no qualms about using Hip Hop to play the race card when it suited their needs (Sista Soljah anyone?) Tha mainstream Democratic party is rapidly losing the ability to connect with our children. So instead of asking "Why do people like LF?" Ask instead how is the Democratic party going to attract the loyalties of the millions of Black youth, it routinely ignores or treats as a political kick ball? Current Black Democrats will one day be dead....Whose going to take their place? Young Black people who are currently being ignored.

The other thing I'd like to comment on is LF's known bigotry and homophobia. I've seen quite a few posts that says that progressives should be just as firm in condemning bigotry, even if it occurs in our own back yard. I posted before about how one of the most heartbreaking things I ever read was a Village Voice article about how the Fruit of Islam pretty much ex-communicated a man on his deathbed because he had AIDS. So I'm under no illusions about what LF and the NOI has stood for in the past. But those who take a position that we shouldn't listen to LF because of his known bigotry are missing two key points: The current mood of Black people in America and the fact that moral absolutes are a double edged sword.

First of all, I think a lot of people really don't understand the effect Katrina has had on the Black American psyche. Aside from the disgust and white hot rage that our people had after seeing the way the government treated our people and all of the justifications and excuses made for the lack of response from the government, there was the ensuing media coverage. We were pretty much described as savages who, with one natural disaster reverted to the ways of the jungle. I think that's the thing that made me most angry. First we were left to the mercy of a storm and then we were subjected to some of the most fucked up stereotypes this side of Amos and Andy. Just think about the fantastic stories: Children getting gang raped. Children getting their throats cut and then being frozen. Wild eyed junkies firing on hospitals so they can get their fix. Stories that for the most part, most Black people felt were bullshit but were beamed around the nation and world without anyone even attempting to find out if they were true. Oh yeah, we're pissed about it. It's as if Katrina unleashed another storm surge. But this storm surge didn't consist of wind and water but instead brought forth a tidal wave of some of the most fucked up racial commentary I have seen in some time. And it's being talked about in depth amongst our community.

I attended a performance of a pretty popular Black play about 2 weeks ago. After the play, the lead performer and playwright came out and started kicking it with the audience. He explained that he had stopped watching network news many years ago but he decided to tune in after Katrina to keep tabs on events. He said that based on the depictions of Black people in nightly newscasts, he would never watch mainstream news again. And keep in mind that he was saying this to an audience of 5,000 overwhelmingly Black people and that he had 6 performances to do. And the message was felt and shared by everyone.

So to the folks who believe in moral absolutes, I ask where were you when this was being done? In the post I described earlier, the author cited statements from both the ADL and the Southern Poverty Law Center. I went to both of their sites expecting to find a wealth of information on the media coverage and the ongoing negative portrayal of Black people. Know what I found: Nothing. Nada. Zilch. NYET. NOT A GOD DAMN THING. The ADL had a small article about how some racists are rearing their ugly head. But their commentary on LF was front and center. When the Congressional Black Caucus had a press conference about the response to Katrina, they should have been ringed by all of the groups who always seem to find time to find LF so repugnant. Instead they did it alone as they usually do, and according to some posts I read here, their offices were besieged by Angy callers.

So believe in moral absolutes all you want: But at this point in our collective Black existence, Black people aren't trying to hear this. We really don't want to hear about homophobia when thousands of Black babies were herded into the Superdome without adequate food, water or diapers. And we really don't want to hear about Anti-semitism when former cabinet members of the US can openly discuss aborting all Black babies.

Like I said deal with the issues, not the man. I'm going to close with the following: All of the people so busy slamming LF without discussing the issues he speaks to and including people in the discussion that he includes better be prepared for Black folk to sit on our asses or vote 3rd party in the next election cycles. I've heard both scenarios discussed. So instead of pissing and moaning about LF, you better buy a clue and learn to speak to the issues to the audiences that progressives desperately need with the passion that he does.

[malaise]

1. Touche

recommened.

[harlinnchi]

2. Preach on, BronxBoy! I'm part of the congregation.

I'll even join the choir if I can. Lotsa folks in Philly feel the same way. In the absence of people with the stature of Obama, the vacuum of which you speak was and is filled with guys like LF. I would even throw folks like Jesse and Al into the group. I dislike the opportunistic attention-seeking of each but I listen to their words and am amenable to action on their behalf if the situation calls for it.

This was, to me, a well-written and informative post, dude.

[BronxBoy]

3. Thanks

I thought the send a $1.00 a week speil at the end reeked of pure hucksterism. Yeah, Black America is just going to send the NOI millions of dollars a week without hearing a well though-out plan with what's going to be done with it.

But at least he trying to do something? Where's everyone else?

[harlinnchi]

9. I'm not against a buck a week to a cause.

The thing is who to trust. To what person would you feel good about giving $1000.00 of YOUR money? Tough question!

[BronxBoy]

19. Me either

I just would have preferred if he had presented more of a plan prior to asking for it. Money is a very useful tool but it can also be a very poisonous thing if people aren't comfortable with how it's being handled.

[itzamirakul]

48. The $1.00 per week is a disaster fund and from the names

they gave out yesterday, they seem to have a pretty respectable board.

I also like the idea of fasting one day each week. It is something I have done in the past and need to revive as part of my lifestyle. So I will add them to my list and send the buck as often as possible.

I confess to being jaded enough to have thought that SOMEONE will probably lightfinger some of the cash inflow, but then I thought, what the hell, when I send to the Red Cross or Sallie Army or other charities, they stand as much a chance of lightfingering as anyone else and who else steals more than the BushCo from our taxes....so....I'll let my own group steal from me if it comes down to that (which I do not believe) and still continue to give to the others as well.

My personal favorites:
Southern Poverty Law Center
NAACP
ASPCA
Salvation Army
Red Cross
First Church of Religious Science
Disabled Vets (I still don't know if they are pulling my leg or what)
Varous local cultural organizations



I can't afford to give to everyone all the time on a regular basis, but I send a few dollars to each one several times each year. If nothing else, it helps keep the lights on or pays for postage.

[BronxBoy]

69. Thanks

And I have to admit, I haven't been to their website yet so all of this may have been layed out and I haven't clued myself in yet.

And you're right about our taxes: What's a dollar compared to funding the War in Iraq

[IndyOp]

86. Do you have a link to this information?

I've looked around the MMM site and the best information I can find about good donation recipients are:

Socially Reponsible Katrina Relief

Alternet Recommendations

Grassroots/Low Income/People of Color Led Relief

:kick:

[ultraist]

96. At the bottom of the main page, there is Katrina info

http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/index_noflash.html

On the side of the Katrina page:

Organizations Providing Relief & Information

Tom Joyner BlackAmericaWeb Foundation

NAACP

Nation of Islam

National Conference of Black Mayors

Brotherhood Crusade

Grassroots
Hurricane

Each org is linked to their site where you can make a donation.

Is that what you are looking for? Sorry if I misunderstood!

[itzamirakul]

97. I have an address...

After Farrkhan had finished his speech, he called another minister (the one with a dashiki on) to the podium and LF said this was the gentleman in charge of the Disaster Fund. I was writing fast and he gave the info twice.

Millions More Movement Disaster Fund
POB 10680
Washington, DC 20020-9994

I neglected to write down the name of the minister, but drop a note to the addy and see if they can send some infor.

As far as the board members are concerned, LF made a point of saying at the end, that he knew people were wondering who would be "in charge" of making sure the donations were properly handled and he began to name those on the board. I remember distinctly that Sheila Lee Jackson was among them.I think Susan (editor of Essence mag) forgot her last name is among board members - she also spoke at the event yesterday as well as Russell Simmons.

Another phone number I took down was for a free documentary by one of the scholars who spoke. I didn't make clear in my notes if his name was NKeechi Taiefa or not but that number is 662-832-2324. Also, he can be heard on 89.3 FM. A second free documentary was offered but I didn't manage to jot down all of the numbers for that one.Maybe you can ask about it at the first number.

Also, check the website at HarvestInstitute.org and see if they have further info.

At a pre-MMM event panel held at Howard University on Friday,notables who spoke included Joe Madison, Talk Show host at WOL AM in DC, and the organizer of the panel discussion was Opio Sokoni from KBMS AM in Vancouver WA. Another person there was Dalani Aamon of Harambee Radio (online) who hosts a four hour talk show on Thursday nights. Another speaker was Askia Muhammad of the Black Journalism Review.

Other websites I copied down were:
Allhiphop.com
okplayer.com
daveyd.com (I think this is his website...I know it is his name)
blackelectorate.com
slavenation.com

All have political information according to the speakers. I have not yet checked them all out.

Note: Also, if you have never read the Black commentator go to www.blackcommentator.com for insightful articles.

[IndyOp]

98. I started reading Black Commentator after the

election was stolen last November - THANKS for all of the other sites. I'm off to go bookmark a bunch!

I'm disgusted by the very little coverage of the MMM on AAR - DemocracyNow! did better.

:headbang:

[Tigress DEM]

129. What about Reverend Sekou?

I heard him at the Clergy and Laity Concerned about Iraq Interfaith Service in Washington DC.

He's a Pentecostal minister who works with United for Peace and Justice organizing Clergy and Laity Concerned about Iraq - an interfaith coalition of religious leaders, faith communities, institutions, organizations, and lay leaders committed to peace and justice.

Their group states:
"We embrace non-violent forms of righteous indignation and call upon people of faith to honor the sacredness of all life and to highlight the immoral character of the war in Iraq. Finally we offer a vision of the world that seeks international cooperation, social peace, and economic justice."

He doesn't put any color on it and there were multiple faiths represented there too.

[harlinchi]

258. Sounds like a good person. I don't know him but I'm willing to learn. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

131. What about John Conyers? I know he's only a House Rep, but ...

he's been around since MLK and everything he does has great quality to it. He's in the fight every time I look doing something that needs to be done.

If he ran for Pres, he'd get my vote.

[harlinchi]

259. I admire Mr. Conyers but I don't think he has the appeal to broadly lead.

He certainly has the backbone, though!

[wryter2000]

148. Welcome to DU

Thanks for adding your voice. :hi: We're listening.

[harlinchi]

260. Thanks. I'm listening and learning from many here.

I post as harlinchi @ work and as harlinnchi @ home. I can't seem to get enough of this place; it keeps me aware that many people share my perspective (or I share theirs!).

I am, however, still learning how to post assertively without offense. I have found the DU'ers will keep one in check!

[itzamirakul]

4. Excellent Post! Recommended!

At some point we have to help even the most caring and sincere DUers overcome a certain paternalistic sense, whereby they advise black Americans just whom they should like, believe, follow, consider as leaders, etc.

I really think that most of them do not realize themselves just what they are doing.

As far as the JADL, I continue to say that they should clean up their own house first. I am glad that you pointed out their lack of coverage of the most grievous of outrages re: Katrina and the levee failures.

For one who has been a "lurker" more than a poster, may I say that I am glad you finally decided to speak out. Your remarks are lucid and focused and very pointed. I for one, appreciate your posts.

[BronxBoy]

7. Thanks

Listen, the ADL has their mission. And if I were Jewish, I would certainly have apprehensions about LF and the NOI. And to a certain extenet, I can understand what they do. The Jewish people were the victims of one of the worst atrocities committed by mankind so I got no problem when they say never again, they mean it.

I just have no patience for people who use them to tear down the message that LF, rightly or wrongly, is speaking to because no one else is in a manner the Black community deems sufficient.

[pretzel4gore]

5. why doesn't black america form its own israel?

they should pick a seaside state, say mississippigeorgia, louisiana and call it 'black israel' and get all their people go there, vote in black israel leadership etc and then say 'pay us the reparations you racist pig bastards' to the rest of america...meanwhile they can build their own country. if 2 state solution best for the israeli palestinians, then why not black america?
face it, white racism is too entrenched in usa politics to be neutralised, katrina proves it, bennett boasts about it, foxnews depends on it, and bush needs it

[BronxBoy]

37. I'm not that jaded yet

this is where I agree with all of the progressives who consistently preach that if we have any chance of saving this country, it will be with a broad based movement that deals with the issues of the working class.

Setting up a seperate Black state isn't a viable option. Ironically, that is what the NOI used to preach. I don't know if they still do.

[ozarkvet]

147. Sounds like Liberia to me.

I have no plans of being shipped to a reservation, either.

[jmm]

237. I could be getting names confused but

I believe Frederick Douglas once pointed out to Lincoln that his family had been in this country longer than Lincoln's when this subject came up. Yeah white racism is entrenched but two states is not the answer especially when black people have just as much of a right to this country as white people, although neither have as big of a claim as the Native America's do. The I/P situation isn't comparable because the claims used to land are entirely different.

Besides only 2% of Black people currently support Bush and 88% voted for Kerry so just picture a white America without us around ;).

[radwriter0555]

6. Farrakhan is also closely aligned with the moonies, that in and of itself

should be cause for consternation, question, and alarm.

[BronxBoy]

11. And GWB...

and the conservatives in power are closely aligned with PNAC.

And your point is?

I challenge you to go into any barber shop or beauty parlor or club in Black America right now and use statement as a basis as to why we shouldn't hear out LF. Boy, I'd pay to see that.

An of course, saying he's connected to the Moonies, doesn't address the issue of the vacuum, does it?

[tocqueville]

14. and GWB is aligned with the Moonies too for a fact

why is it so that you guys always try to find "solutions" with crackpots...

How about organizing a movement without religion, based on democratic principles and fighting for the rights of the oppressed ? In Europe they are called social-democratic parties...

[BronxBoy]

16. Who the fuck is "you guys?".....

And where in the post did I say that I think that I'm trying to find a solution with him?

You must have been reading a different post

[ultraist]

26. WTF?

why is it so that you guys always try to find "solutions" with crackpots...

MLK, Jr. was a "crackpot?" Malcolm X was a "crackpot?"

The powerful, organized Black CHRISTIAN faith community is led by "crackpots?"

"you guys"

Talk about racist and ignorant.

[tocqueville]

33. Excuse me but my intention was not to ostracize anybody

and specially not any race. I chose the wrong expression, English isn't my native language.

There have been plenty of great black leaders in the US, and MLK was one of them.

For me Farrakhan is a crackpot, and NOI even worse. They are a religious black racist answer to religious white racism.

AS such they are not a solution to the Afro Americans problems in the US.

That's what I meant.

And disaggreing is bot being ignorant and/or racist

[ultraist]

36. I wasn't referrring to the fact you disagreed

I was referring to your comment that all Black leaders have been "crackpots" and your, 'those people' ("you guys") term.

I'm glad to hear that you, as someone who obviously is not very familiar with the American Black community, has a solution to racism.

I think I'll take the time to listen the Black leaders of America.

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-usmarc164472251oct16,0,959044.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

The rally, which featured dozens of speakers, drew a cross-section of the nation's black thinkers, activists, politicians and entrepreneurs, including hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons, economist Julianne Malveaux, Princeton professor Cornel West and activist the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Many of them said that despite great progress in the black community during the 1990s, the slow government response to the victims of Hurricane Katrina showed that race and class still shapes the fate of black Americans.

"When the government takes two or three days to get there, it's pretty clear the government doesn't care," said talk show host Tavis Smiley. "Black folks see this as another indication of inequity in America

As far as I'm concerned, you showed your hand with that comment.

[BronxBoy]

39. Well let me help you out here...

Never, ever preface something in a conversation with "You..." anything when in the company of Black folk.

You people
Your kind


Using that is like rasing a red flag to a bull.

And once again Tocqueville, who is advocating that NOI has the solutions for Black America.

I don't think I implied that but if I did, please enlighten me.

I don't post often but I try to post coherently (at least before the vodka kicks in)


:toast:

edited for spelling

[PittLib]

62. Agreed. I say never use "you ----" ...

no matter who you are talking to. Nothing makes me disengage from a conversation faster than someone beginning a phrase with "you ...". It always foreshadows a full-blown argument with someone who is not rational. I blame right-wing talk radio for the increase in usage. "You liberals, you Democrats, you people" ... it is bullshit. It implies a separation, categorization and presumption about who you are, what you believe and how you identify yourself. I encounter it in political arguments all too often - and yet I have to speak before someone applies it to me. Black people don't even have to open their mouths to illicit this phrase, so I can only imagine the ire it creates.

This is not directed at Tocqueville necessarily - your use may have been benign. I just wanted to expound a bit on BronxBoy's post specifically - because I've gotten "you..." not only from those with completely oppositional views, but around here as well. It is cheap, close-minded and a feeble attempt to discredit those with original thought.

[BronxBoy]

67. And thanks for correcting me...

I can see how it would be annoying to anyone.....Black or White

[PittLib]

93. Not a correction ...

you never implied otherwise, just a matter of individual perspective. :)

[Tigress DEM]

130. Kudos for responding in kindness.

I can't tell you how tired I am of seeing DEMs tearing up other DEMs over simple misunderstandings. Ya' got some real class there, Bronx Boy.

I heard you say people are listening because some of what he says makes sense and because he did step up and get on the platform to be heard.

His other stuff maybe has lots of people shaking their head over, but if he is valuable isn't there a way for the community to confront him on the other stuff?

I have older relatives that are bigotted and as much as I was raised to respect my elders, I tend to call them on it even so. I know it probably isn't going to change them, but I certainly want them to know they aren't going to change me, so I speak up.

Isn't there some kind way people who he might listen to could tell him to keep up the fire on the issues, but don't throw all the white race away because of those that are awful and others who need to learn?

[lumpy]

56. We should be listening

to what those so-called 'crackpots' have to say and consider their viewpoints. Black sorely need representation and they are getting it, whether anyone likes it or not. Traditionally blacks have not been acknowledged for the role they have had played in the development of this country. They have been with us from the beginning, what does it take to make people realize their role as patriotic citizens ?.

[noiretextatique]

59. what does your opinion of farrakhan have to do with the post?

the poster went to great lengths to explain farrakhan's relevance to some BLACK AMERICANS, not as a religious or moral leader, but as a poltical one. that he will never run for office is a given, but frankly, your opinion of him and the NOI is irrelevant.

[JanusAscending]

110. Did you happen to LISTEN to LFs' speech yesterday?

Did you hear anything he said? I wrote a post yesterday on the thread regarding Jesse Jacksons' remarks. It was titled "I WONDER". Rather than repeat the whole thing here, I would suggest you do a search and check out what I had to say. Anyone who expresses an OPINION on his speech, without having actually heard it, should think before opening mouth and inserting foot!!!

[Tigress DEM]

132. Why don't you post the link?

I agree that it would be valuable, but I don't have time to dig thru all of DU for it.

[JanusAscending]

186. I apologize for that!

I will try, but I'm not as computer "savvy" as some of you. I don't know how to do it, (said she ashamedly ) I think I came accross something recently that tells me how it's done, so I'll try. I too, am pressed for time. I'm quite busy trying to get our Dem. Slate in a Rep. town, elected this Nov. :toast:

[Up2Late]

209. Here's her link (I think), this is the first time I've tried

the "permalink" feature:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1852128&mesg_id=1852393>

[JanusAscending]

215. God Bless your "pea pickin heart" !!

Thank you so much!! I finally found the link, but still haven't figured out how to transfer it to a new thread! Just got home from a Dem fundraiser Pasta supper, and was trying to understand the instructions, and I still don't get it!:bounce: :shrug: Luv ya!!

[Tigress DEM]

220. It works. Got me in the middle.

If you just go up to the top of the page with your mouse, your pc will usually auto select the whole line. Copy and paste the whole link including the http:// to the end in the post it will work even without the brackets.

To get the Origional Post, just go to this link and when the whole page fills click on the original post. When you can see the actual post on your screen go to the top of the page and copy it and paste it into the body of a new post.

Control C for copy is a shortcut most people use to copy and Control V for paste.

[radwriter0555]

125. You didn't know he's aligned with the moonies, and most people here don't

know he's in bed with moon.

Most people on the planet haven't a clue who the moonies are and what their goals and intentions are.

Why would you expect normal, decent middle americans to know?

The fact is that I know.. now you know... but maybe it doesn't bother you.

Fact is, it bothers me.

Therefore, I refuse to endorse or support such a freak... I don't care what others think, never did. I know what I know.

Now, if you don't take that information about farrakhan and the moonies and learn eveything you can about that association and it's potential consequences and share it with others, then that's a real shame, because the point of Democratic Underground is to share, to learn and to grow and to empower this nation and take it back from the clutches of the corrupt power freaks like the moonies.

[wryter2000]

150. True, but...

No one here is going to support PNAC and the Bushits.

[Karenina]

257. Your alarm would be better directed here:

The "public servants" who participated in this debacle held at the DIRKSEN SENATE BUILDING have MUCH more power to affect you personally and negatively than LF could ever DREAM OF!!!

[BrklynLiberal]

8. The Democratic party better read this and take it it to heart, or we

will all live to regret it.
I believe this is what would be called speaking truth to power.
Breathtaking.

[BamaBecky]

142. I wish everybody could read this - Everybody - I overheard

a lot of white folks down this way talking about the events in New Orleans in a negative way. I wish everybody was as outraged as I am about ALL the stuff that is going on. I find it difficult to write letters to the editor without coming off as somebody with a rage problem......

Bama

[tocqueville]

10. LF is a dangerous nut

On October 24, 1989, at the J.W. Marriott Hotel in Washington, DC., Louis Farrakhan stated that he had a vision of being abducted in 1985 by an invisible pilot in a UFO and carried up on a beam of light to a "human built planet" known as the "Mother Wheel." There the voice of Elijah Muhammad informed him that the president and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, under the direction of Gen. Colin Powell, were planning a war, which Farrakhan said he later came to realize was "a war against the black people of America, the Nation of Islam and Louis Farrakhan." "I saw a city in the sky," Farrakhan said, after which the UFO "brought me back to Earth and dropped me off near Washington; over to Tyson Corners and Fifth Street I think...to make The Announcement."

"So I said to the members of the press, 'Why won't you go and look into what we are saying about the threats on Reverend Jackson's life?' Here the Jews don't like Farrakhan and so they call me 'Hitler.' Well that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't great for me as a Black man but he was a great German and he rose Germany up from the ashes of her defeat by the united force of all of Europe and America after the first world war. Yet Hitler took Germany from the ashes and rose her up and made her the greatest fighting machine of the twentieth century, brothers and sisters, and even though Europe and America had deciphered the code that Hitler was using to speak to his chiefs of staff, they still had trouble defeating Hitler even after knowing his plans in advance. Now I'm not proud of Hitler's evil toward Jewish people, but that's a matter of record. He rose Germany up from nothing. Well, in a sense you could say there is a similarity in that we are rising our people up from nothing, but don't compare me with your wicked killers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrakhan

the last thing afro-americans need is a guy like him

[BronxBoy]

15. Who said we needed him?

I certainly didn't. But he is speaking to issues that no one else is in a manner that lets our community feels that they get it?

But I have to go back to my original question: Why is there such a vacuum in leadership. I'm pretty much convinced that the Democratic party is seeding an ever deeper demise because it has an amazing ability to tune out Black youth and their issues.

No we need to look in the mirror to answer a large part of that question. But we also need to look at the coalitions that we build to ensure that our needs are being met. As katrina showed us, they aren't and we can expect to be pretty much left for dead when push comes to shove.

[tocqueville]

20. the ideas behind NOI are not better than Evangelicals

The NOI teaches that black people constitute a nation and that through the institution of the Atlantic slave trade they were systematically denied knowledge of their past history, language, culture and religion and in effect lost control of their lives. Central to this doctrine, NOI theology asserts that black people's experience of slavery was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and therefore, black people are the seed of Abraham referred to in the Bible, in Genesis 15:13,14:

Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
And Acts 7:6:

And God spoke on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam


ANYBODY with a crackpot agenda can rise ACCURATE ISSUES. The Hamas does for the Palestinians. It's exactly the same thing. Those guys are often pretty good at it. They point out REAL problems, know HOW to talk to people. That's what makes them extremely dangerous.

That's why true DEMOCRATIC forces (Democrats ?) should fill the vaccuum, on that I agree with you. When traditional parties lose contact with the base (applies to both Left and Right), you see a rise of crackpot populist movements from Trotskyites to PNAC...

The more the people suffer, the more able they are to seize power.

What the US badly needs is a true SECULAR social-democratic movement.
And the inspiration is to be more from European experiences AND American original thinking (Founding Fathers) than from any new constructions based on whatever biblical interpretation.

[noiretextatique]

60. are you aware of that most african-americans are christians?

as the poster pointed out to you, farrakhan's appeal is political, not religious.

[femrap]

120. I sense that power vacuum as well....the silence of the

Democrats is deafening....except for a few, such as John Conyers. I feel betrayed by the Democrats....they come around every four years and tell Blacks, pro-choice women, and other minorities how much they need our votes and how they will stand up for our rights...what a bunch of crap!

You're right about the 3rd Party...at times of financial distress, 3rd and 4th parties can fill a power vacuum. I fear that these Christian Fascists, who are well organized, may step up. Maybe a 'social-democratic party' is possible. I am so disgusted by the Democrats of late....especially those affiliated with the DLC.

I enjoyed your post...thx.

[malaise]

17. The essential point you miss

is that LF speaks truth to power on behalf of Africans across the Diaspora. The majority of us ingore a lot of the garbage he has said in the past and deal with what he's saying about critical issues that concern us. A lot of his message is the same as Garvey's but Garvey's message was villified when it remains as true today as it did in the 1920s. Check our the Rennaisance in Harlem and see if you don't see Garveyism all over it.
Replay LFs message from yesterday and tell me whether regular DUers don't agree with his position on several issues.

Speaking for myself, I'm quite capable of deciding who I'll listen to re serious issues. LFs address yesterday was very relevant to oppressed people across the globe of all races. Maybe, just maybe if someone else would speak truth to power so many people would not listen to Farrakhan.
Edit -sp.

[ultraist]

28. 1989? Let's look at what he is saying/doing TODAY!

You OBVIOUSLY didn't watch his speech yesterday or you would have noticed that he had the support of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Sheila Lee Jackson, Cornell West and many other highly respected Black leaders and scholars.

The last thing Blacks need are white racists, like Bushcorp and the white voters who are in denial.

[tocqueville]

35. I checked the speech on the WP and NYT

Even if the criticism against the white society's crimes against the blacks is perfectly justified, I don't think that the "solution" is to organize a "separate black power" in the US.

I am longing for an American Nelson Mandela

[ultraist]

38. Farrakhan did not call for just a seperate Black power

If you had listened to his speech, he called for ALL people, Black, white, Native Americans, Asian, and whites to join together to fight against the Bush regime.

You go right ahead and sit around and wait and "long" for the perfect leader, meanwhile I will continue to take heed to what the great thinkers of our time, such as Cornel West say.

[goclark]

46. There are many Whites that can be another Mandela

You missed the entire purpose of the March!

It amazes me that Whites are always saying, "Black people need to get themselves together, they need to educate their kids, they need to get a job, they need to bla bla bla."

So, when we fill the Washington Mall with Black men, women and children to find out more about education, getting jobs, being more politically involved, that means to you that we want "A Separate Black Power."

White people were clearly invited to attend, I did not see many there.

We need all the help and support for our health and welfare as we can get.

I didn't see any Whites being turned away.

[Tigress DEM]

136. I didn't get an invitation. How do I get on the mailing list?

You don't just have to turn us away to not include us.

If our help is really wanted, and hands from this side have been extended before and been slapped, they tell us when and where.

[ultraist]

162. The event was publicized and open to the public

You don't just have to turn us away to not include us

Do you actually think you should recieve a personal invite to a march of nearly 2 million people? Do you get invites from other groups without having signed up for their email list?

Apparently, you did not sign up to be on the email list on their website. http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/index_noflash.html

[Tigress DEM]

217. Thanks for the email list. You can have your barbs back, though.

No. I didn't think I'd get a personal invitation.

It's just that this march wasn't publicized anywhere I saw it. I was focused on the DC Peace march in Sept and I don't remember how I tracked that one down because it was June or July that I found it.

1/2 a million people or 2 million barely gets a blip in the news when it happens. I don't do TV regularly because MSM is so bogus. I really didn't hear about it until it was happening this year.

And as a DEM I have gotten notification of all kinds of things because you get on one list and you pop up on a multitude of others. It is conceivable that if the Million Man March was serious about having more DEMs in the mix then they could have given a general email shout out to some groups that could filter it down to the local level.

Could it be that the giving up on us DEMs is a small part of the problem too? I don't blame the movement for not including me specifically. I was trying to be funny and trying to get some information, but it is weird that as a group DEMs didn't get targeted at least via email for something this important.

[noiretextatique]

61. some people believe that is the solution

including some actual black americans, people who have grown up in this system and don't think it ever meant to accomodate us.

[Tigress DEM]

137. That's sad.

You know just as there are the LFs in leadership roles and people who get the good pieces of his message and leave the rest because they are intelligent loving people - there are also people who may be white, but do see the inequality, do fight against it as we know how and would like to do more.

There are misperceptions on both sides I think and NOLA and the media coverage (even the skewed coverage) has opened many eyes wider. I knew it was bad, but there are so many things this administration does that are so much worse than I could imagine any government doing that it just chokes the life out of me at times.

I particularly think now is the time for those fighting for justice to simply embrace our fellow freedom fighters and not call skin color at all. People are people and everyone deserves to be treated with respect. No exceptions. Like another bumber sticker I saw. "God bless Everyone. No exceptions."

Peace. I've got to be to work early in the am and it's already half past o dark thirty.

[malaise]

89. Conyers was there too n/t

[Tigress DEM]

133. Conyers for Pres! nt

[BronxBoy]

78. Cat woman responded to this last night>>>

funny as hell, you should check it out.

[CatWoman]

102. What? this?

:D



"Mothership Connection (Starchild)"
Well, all right!
Starchild, Citizens of the Universe, Recording Angels.
We have returned to claim the Pyramids.
Partying on the Mothership.
I am the Mothership Connection.
Gettin' down in 3-D
Light year groovin'
Well all right, if you hear any noise, it ain't nobody but me and the
boys
Gettin' down. Hit it fellas!

If you hear any noise
It's just me and the boys
Hit me (groovin')
You gotta hit the band

All right, all right, Starchild here
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip
And come on up to the Mothership.
Loose Booty, doin' the bump. Hustle on over here.

If you hear any noise,
It's just me and the boys hittin' it.
You gotta hit the band.
Ain't nothing but a party, y'all.
Face it, even your memory banks have forgotten this funk.
Mothership Connection, home of the P.Funk, the Bomb.
If you hear any noise,
It's just me and the boys, hit me
You gotta hit the band.
Doin' it in 3-D.
Let me put on my sunglasses here so I can see what I'm doing.
When you hear seats rumble you will hear your conscience grumble
Hit me
You gotta hit the band
You have overcome, for I am here.

Swing down, sweet chariot
Stop, and let me ride
(x6)

Doin' it up on the Chocolate Milky Way
What's up CC? Have you forgot me?
Are you hip to Easter Island? The Bermuda Triangle?
Heh heh! Well, all right. Ain't nothing but a party!
Starchild here, Citizens of the Universe
I bring forth to you the Good Time
On the Mothership.
Are you hip?
Sing, fellas!

If you hear any noise
It's just me and the boys
Hit me
You gotta hit the band
(x2)

Starchild here, doin' it in 3-D.
So good, it's good to me.
Hit the band!

If you hear any noise
It's just me and the boys
Hit me
You gotta hit the band

Swing low, sweet chariot, coming for to carry you home!

If you hear any noise
It's just me and the boys
Hit me
You gotta hit the band
(x2)

I don't think they hear you!
If you hear any noise
It's just me and the boys
Hit me
You gotta hit the band


Starchild here, citizens of the universe
Gettin' it on, partying on the Mothership.
When Gabriel's horn blows, you'd better be ready to go.

Swing low
Time to move on
Light years in time
Ahead of our time
Free your mind, and come fly
With me
It's hip
On the Mothership
Groovin'

[jaysunb]

177. Groove on Kitty...hehe

:hi:

[JanusAscending]

114. WHO CARES?!!!!

God used Baalams ASS to speak for him. It's not the messenger that's important here, IT"S THE MESSAGE!! This man spoke more TRUTH yesterday, things that we white Dems discuss on these pages, and things that some of our elected Dem.s in power haven't had the GUTS to speak out loud!! I really suggest you try to get ahold of a transcript of his speech. Then come back and talk on the real issues facing our nation!

[Tigress DEM]

134. So who is going to tell LF that he's at least as good as Baalams ASS? nt

:hide: :rofl:

[JanusAscending]

193. OOPS!!!

ME!!?:spray:

[Tigress DEM]

221. Well, God does use who He chooses.

I'm heartened that LF is speaking well considered words and is calling for all people to work together. That is encouraging.

If it's a case of God using him to keep the message alive, then I'm all for it. I wish that everyone, myself included, could be more tolerant and patient. We all have our ways of being fools, of buying the racial myths that perpetuate the mistrust among us.

I literally do reach out and get slapped back down. I still reach out, but I am sorely tired of being slapped.

[daveskilt]

229. good point - I've always thought farrakhan was a loony but...

the message was good.

even a blind man occasionally finds his ass in the dark with both hands (unless he's named george) or something like that.

If only we could have non loonies with good messages that didn't discredit themselves by being crazy. While what he said was good most folks won't hear it, read it, or care because it came from a guy who has been such a monumental nutcase for so very long that he has no credibility.

I mean if GWB gave a speech on the importance of caring for the poor and advocated socialized medicine - would you buy it? I wouldn't. good message, wrong messenger.

on edit -

sufi proverb - a donkey carrying a load of holy books is still just an ass.

[Sparkman]

155. LF is NOT a Hitler-type speaking!! Hitler was not a minority!!

This quote, and thanks for posting it, does not ruin LF's credibility if one reads it closely. ONLY taking statements out of context can implicate LF here. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING IS BAD here?!
It's a VISION, not a claim of an actual UFO experience.
He's not a fan of Hitler, but stating Hitler's effect was "great" not that Hitler himself was "great", BIG difference.

[Danger Duck]

160. Dancing with

the devil my friend. Turn it around, and imagine if Rush or O'Reilly started saying Hitler was great.

[Karenina]

167. Erraaa... they DO, in so many words

24/7! And to much greater detriment to the body politik than the years old spewings of LF. I have no fondness for the man. He is, however, currently speaking the truth to power. I give him kudos for that.

[Sparkman]

169. I can't see the "HITLER IS GREAT" interpretation from LF. n/t

[LincolnMcGrath]

12. Excellent Post

K + R

[Tigress DEM]

138. Ditto - aka what Lincoln said. Recommended btw. nt.

[murielm99]

13. Not only recommended, but also

suggested that this needs wider circulation.

Send it to some newspapers. And let the Southern Poverty Law Center know how you feel. LF is filling a need that the rest of us are allowing to go right over our heads. I see people on DU disrespecting Jesse Jackson, too, and calling him an opportunist. Rev. Jackson is a loyal Democrat. We seem to expect black people to denounce any leadership that is not perfect. We do that to white politicians on DU, too. But if black leadership fights among itself, that makes them look immature. I think there are plenty of white people who would enjoy that. Let's have everyone in disarray but the repukes.

I actually felt some hope after we saw outright genocide on our nightly news. I thought that might wake up a few people, and cause black and white to look for some honest solutions. But things seem to have gone back to business as usual.

[Tigress DEM]

140. First solution is to get the bozos out who are dangerous to us all.

I'm changed after Katrina. It isn't white and black as a people to me any more. It's the human race. These ARE MY PEOPLE that the as*****s killed through their calculated neglect.

My son almost got in the Army. By the grace of God he did not. But I am struck in the heart whenever I see a woman whose son was killed over there.

My pain for MY PEOPLE in NOLA is the same. It is because I know I could have been born black as easy as white. Rich or poor I could be struggling to keep the middle class afloat in either skin. I've met a lot of people in my time and once you really get talking, their experiences may be different, but people are the same. They love. They hurt. They get angry and forgive or don't.

I've never had anything against black people. In fact, I've always wished I could do more, but it's hard to walk in there when you feel you have to be the one to take on the entire nation's shameful history for a couple years until you are really trusted or respected as a person.

A lot is being done in the DEM party by individual DEMs to help all people and with a special internal vengence about what has been done to blacks in NOLA. It's just hard to look into the faces of a people who have been so mistreated and know that those no accounts are still sitting their manipulating things. It's like until I've really done something big, how can I come to the community and make any statement of atonement?

[goclark]

18. Bronx Boy, you took me to church this morning!

Recommended!

Can I get an Amen this morning!

That is exactly how we feel as African Americans!

And, as a Liberal Democrat for all my voting life,I can't see for the life of me how a true Liberal could not have understood where Farrakan was coming from yesterday!

His speech was, IMO, one of the most profound political speeches of my life time.

He dared to BOLDLY stand in front of the BUSH CRIME FAMILY's house and tell them,"WE NEED A REGIME CHANGE!"
He spoke and he was loudly CHEERED!!

He gave GWB a living hell yesterday! Why does it take LF to say that and get the attention of millions!

He was not telling African Americans to leave the Democratic Party, he was telling us to really put pressure on our elected officials to take care of the poor and New Orleans etc.

I wish I had the quote from his speech about letting our elected officials know that we mean business about help for Katrina etc. so that they will have the guts to VOTE to support issues that are dear to us. I recall he even mentioned giving our support to JESSE and Al when they are trying to get something done!

He DID NOT encourage all of us to leave the Democratic Party, but he did skillfully suggest that if we don't get the response that we deserve,step outside the Party and let them beg for our votes.

In other words, stop being the backbone of a Party that doesn't have the backbone to even bang the door down at FEMA and say NO MORE!

The Democratic National Committee should be ashamed that we as African Americans can't remember ONE WORD that they have said that was as STRONG and as POWERFUL as the MMM was yesterday.

Let me ask this question...For all the blood,votes and tears that African Americans have given to the Democratic Party, I don't recall ONE White Democratic Party Leader speak yesterday! Did I blink and not see someone?

[BronxBoy]

23. Not only that......

but I think the general feeling is that Democrats didn't speak out forcefully enough on the issue of race.

Yeah I know about the classism and all of the other isms

But like it or not, most people feel that what was allowed to happen in NOLA was allowed becuase it was a BLACK city. And I think that many of our people feel that the Dems have danced around the issue.

[IndyOp]

79. The Dems aren't even close to speaking out honestly about race --

in another thread about yesterday's MMM I wound up in a debate with someone who was warning that events like the MMM would cause a split in the Dem party and cause 'us' to loose the next elections. CAUSE A SPLIT?!?!

Harry Belafonte said this: Katrina did not CAUSE the problem - it only REVEALED a long, long festering deep wound.

I add: Katrina did not CAUSE a split between African Americans and the Democratic Party. The split has always existed -- since before the time when Fannie Lou Hamer had to FIGHT to get into the Democratic National Convention until right now.

I am stunned that anyone in the Dem Party - especially those who consider themselves 'progressive' did not see AfAm reaction against the Dems coming - whether or not Katrina had happened.

The AfAm political community is more than capable enough to think strategically about working with/using the power of the Dems -- provided the Dems are snap out of their trance and LISTEN to the people!

Check out this letter in Support of the Movement in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast --

At this point, there is a need for a united front between movement people on the ground and what is left of the progressive tendencies within the Democratic Party. We are not strong enough to go it alone; they are not strong enough to fundamentally challenge the Republicans and the Right. Our job is to build our own independence politically, to enter into united fronts with forces to confront Bush and the far right, and to come out of every alliance and coalition with a stronger independent political base.

This united front with the Democrats, under certain circumstances, does not at all preclude independent and third party initiatives, as a way to build the independence and power of a more radical movement not tied to the Democrat's right wing or its endless and elusive pursuit oand prioritization of the most reactionary and racist white voters. The exiting possibility of a Harry Belafonte/Danny Glover Third Party presidential ticket in 2008 (both a serious proposal and a symbol of the type of ticket required) would offer an option that could force Democrats to fight for the Black, Latino, Asian/Pacific Islander, and progressive white vote. It would offer an alternative to the disgraceful behavior of the Gore and Kerry campaigns, in which Blacks and Latinos were told to be seen and not heard.

New Orleans and the Gulf Coast offer an historic opportunity to build more unity in the movement, to drive the national and international discourse to the left, to offer to help a beleaguered Black community that is still the most consistently progressive force in the country, and to help reconstruct and new Reconstruction - from the bottom up.

================

Do the Dems want to grow and hold onto the power of the AfAm community? They had better LISTEN and ACT FAST!

[Tigress DEM]

135. Conyers for Prez WAAAAY before Belefonet/Glover.

Love both of those guys, but when I am talking the most powerful seat in the nation, I want a man in there who has been in the biz for awhile and I don't mean showbiz.

You want a ticket that will win, you better get Conyers to run because there is no one can look at that man and say he isn't qualified. Well, I guess some people say he's just a House Rep, but I'd still vote for any ticket he was on.

I'm hoping the 2008 candidate would snatch him up as VP at any rate. I would love to see John ripping the asses of Senators and getting fired whoever it was wouldn't let him in the WhiteHouse with 1/2 million signatures from American's wanting Bush to come clean about the DSM.

[Sparkman]

153. Race is the ultimate reason 4 attrocious neglect by U.S. leadership@NOLA

[Tigress DEM]

222. That and it neatly dovetailed with parishes that had managed...

to vote heavily DEM. I'm thinking this is what the rethugs would call a twofer. I looked up the parishes that didn't get helped and they weren't only black, but had managaged to get their DEM votes counted.

For a group like the rethugs, it's oh so convienent to wipe out an area that managed to resist the rigged vote machines by refusing to come to the aid during a "natural disaster" and by so doing magnify the effect of that disaster.

And I've read a lot on blocked aid on DU posts that I'd like to see covered more in MSM. To me, that's outright murder.

[EST]

43. THANK YOU! Very powerful statement, indeed!

I kept falling out of his speech, trying to get some mental clarity about a point and got totally lost as to the direction he was heading.

I don't want to be perceived as fire starter here: This is a serious inquiry.

In light of my experience with animals, my disgust with the human frailty that prompts them to generate idle, judgmental opinions of their fellow creatures based on skin design is a strong anchor in my own life.
If it is true that the democratic party lacks any strength of backbone and the folks whose skin happens to be something besides white are that backbone-what then?
We need strong people of color in leadership positions, people of unassailable character, people whose commitment to the principles of government by and for the people goes beyond question.
The very concept of the backbone of the party leaving the party, when they, well and truly, are the party just leaves me cold and confused.

Do you think the climb to power, with all its compromises, and necessary nod toward other power mongers in maintaining position corrupts the candidate to the point that ever after the charges of hypocrisy and elitism have some validity?
Is the deal with the devil so unbreakably necessary that there can be no human being ascend to power and still be as good a creature as at the start?
Does political reality attract only charlatans whose goal requires them to echo certain platitudes, no matter their ethical compasses?
Is there a chance that the life experiences that shape a politician will deliver someone of color who is more effective than the wishy washy complement we now have?
My experiences of John Conyers and a few others tells me that people can reach positions of influence, but real power?
My only comfort comes from a future-historical point of view: that this is the middle of the process that marks a transition in American governance where people of real backbone and conscience took over the management of this country and its brotherhood in the fraternity (sorority?) of humankind.

[BronxBoy]

51. Hmmm.

"Do you think the climb to power, with all its compromises, and necessary nod toward other power mongers in maintaining position corrupts the candidate to the point that ever after the charges of hypocrisy and elitism have some validity?"


Good question. I want to say no but all evidence says yes. And at the root of it all is the tremendous amount of power that money yields in our society, especially our political fabric. Even if you are decent, the system is all about destruction not decency.

I think that many people, of all colors and political persuasions, are rapidly coming to a point in this country where they feel that nothing matters. That nothing they can do will change anything and that their options are so limited that it begs the question, "Why try?" And it's a very sad thing to see in this country.

I think there are those people that try. And I think that there are well meaning and solid people on both sides of the political spectrum. Conservatives can rail all about Wild Eyed Liberals and Liberals can rant about Freepers all they want but the truth of the matter is that the most people, conservative and liberal are very, apprehensive about the future. And the sad thing is that I don't feel that we have the leadership in this country to effect any meaningful change right now.

But the worse thing is to give in to the fears that in fact nothing can be done.

[Tigress DEM]

224. I think the whole politicians eventually become corrupt....

is a self fulfilling prophesy and a myth perpetuated by politicians who wanted a cop out.

I'll tell you how to stop it. Follow the money and shut the corporate donations off. Limit political campaigns to X amount of debates and have the issues they debate be determined by the voters. If a politician wants to spend extra, they have to stump in person and give the people face time in town hall meetings - again on issues WE determine should be discussed.

Can people like LF have life experiences and beliefs that put them in contention with a lot of us and NOT be corrupt? I think so.

I don't know very much about him, but I'm willing to believe he's being tough because he has to and the whole gay issue comes from the religious side. My mother was all for equality for everyone but gays. I've seen a lot of otherwise good caring people corrupted by hate.

To me it is almost as bad as an addiction, because if you keep hate in your heart even if you learn tolerance for some people, eventually that hate will find it's target again.

People who expect tolerance from others should never hate people for who they are. Hate the sin not the sinner as the Bible says. As for me I leave a lot of defining personal sinfulness up to God and as none of my business.

When it comes to our leaders, it's hard. WE THE PEOPLE are responsible for keeping them in check.

My biggest qualm with LF in his past statements has been that his words push me away because I was not born black. And yet, in this instance his speech was more open and inviting. I hope that means that we all will be able to get past our illusions of separation. There is only one race. We're all human. We all make mistakes and we can all learn and benefit from each other.

[KittyWampus]

21. The Left Can Do Better Than ANSWER & The Black Community Can Do Better

than LF. To suggest otherwise displays a lack of imagination. I personally refuse to settle.

In a very well written and thought provoking opening post, the OP mentioned homophobia.

If black church members go to the polls voting GOP because they think banning gay marriage is more vitally important than other social justice issues then maybe they don't have their heads, hearts and minds right and need to expand their discourse.

Same can be said on other issues and other communities across the political spectrum. Let's all learn to recognize Wedge Issues.

And if black community members don't know that LF has ties to dark actors like Moon, then maybe they need to get more information and start sharing it.

Same can be said on other dark actors with hidden agendas that go against the Common Good.

And it bears mentioning that there are now very wealthy black people with a stake in protecting the status quo. Apparently they think money
will protect them against the onslaught of facism.

Anyone can choose to see things in terms of race, yes indeed. I think the whole freaking human race needs to have a spiritual awakening. Something that goes far deeper than claiming victimhood and includes embracing our full collectivel potential.

[BronxBoy]

27. And once again, ....

I respond to saying that no one I know is suggesting that LF is the solution to Black problems. I certainly didn't suggest it and was responding to all of those who choose to incessantly focus on Farrakhan instead of some of the messages that for some strange seem to resonate deeply with an awful lot of Black people.

Hey I got issues with the Black churches too but that's a whole other conversation.

And as far as seeing things beyond the prism of race, you're right and I agree with you. But unfortunately, it cannot be helped. Millions of Black people in this country see Katrina through the prism of race and to ignore it is foolhardy at best and neglectful at worst.

[Tigress DEM]

141. There was a HUGE race component with Katrina.

If anyone missed it, it's because it was masked with incompetence, but I was on multiple threads that night and the next day and so on... but over time - especially here on DU - it's really clear that this was calculated to decimate a DEM population they couldn't otherwise control.

There wasn't just oops, there was turning away help from multiple quarters after they got all the white fundies out on buses.

I think what happened with Katrina should be reviewed by the tribunal in DC at the end of October that is going to try the administration on their war crimes and such.

Come spring we will be facing another decimation in the class war. People will freeze to death because they can't afford to pay their heating bills and energy assistance has been underfunded again at a time when they know it will be needed.

[LincolnMcGrath]

29. Moon has "ties" to lots of folks.

Do we distance ourselves from the Congressional Black Caucus now as well?



http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/21/moon/index_np.html

Present at different points during the event were Reps. Danny Davis (D-Ill.), Curt Weldon (R-Pa.), Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) and Sen. Mark Dayton (R-Minn.).

http://www.hillnews.com/news/062204/moon.aspx

Bush seems to value Moon's commitment to family values. Bush named David Caprara, the head of Moon's American Family Coalition, as the director of VISTA (Volunteers in Service to America). Moon's commitment to family values was exemplified at his 20th anniversary celebration of The Washington Times. The keynote speaker was Dr. Laura Schlessinger, the holier-than-thou radio talk show host who is the psychiatric part of the daily ration of right wing AM radio venom that is complemented by the political indoctrination of Rush Limbaugh and his clones. Schlessinger's own commitment to family values was highlighted recently when she claimed the body of her 77-year-old mother from the Los Angeles County morgue after it had remained there for ten days after her unattended death in her condominium. Schlessinger, who lectures callers on how to keep their families together and wholesome, had not seen her own mother since 1984.

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen01142003.html



For the record, I think Moon is a psycho weirdo freak, at best.

[bonzotex]

53. We don't have to dump them but we do have to hold them ...

...accountable.

Sucking up to Moon for whatever reason is completely unacceptable.

Moon has suckered a lot of people. I'm willing to give otherwise good Dems a pass on a casual flirtation with Moon and his money. Same thing with LF and his ability to mobilize Black voters. I expect them to wake up and not do it again, however. Lie down with dogs, etc....

Louis Farrakhan is less of a freak, yet he's treated as more radioactive than Moon.

I don't like either one a bit. Our politicians, of whatever color caucus or party need to be wary of who they associate with, and we need to remind them when they get too cozy with people that don't have America's best interests at heart.

Provide a sane alternative to these demagogues and we won't have to see them in the news.

[BronxBoy]

72. Thank You n/t

[ultraist]

31. Get back to us cryingshame when you have someone better to fill the void

When you find someone other than ANSWER to organize the biggest antiwar march in recent history, and you find someone better than Farrakhan, uniting with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Cornell West and other Black leaders, let us know.

Who do you suggest? How long should people "wait?"

[KittyWampus]

64. my last 2 cents- instead of looking for ONE savior, how about working

on improving things on the local level? Everyone gets a chance to be a mini-savior/leader.

IMO, the Washington protests are kind of getting old. Very valuable for getting like minded people together so they can feel empowered and validated and network.

But the internet does largely the same thing.

Once upon a time huge protests got a lot of press. No more. And what press they do get belittles them and focuses on spectacles.

I prefer the more localized method. When you rely on ONE savior to lead people... the chances of that ONE person getting shot is pretty high.

[ultraist]

74. I don't see anyone here looking to Farrakhan as "one savior"

Farrakhan is UNITING MAJOR, POWERFUL, BLACK leaders and organizations, (secular, Christian, Muslim, & Jewish) to work toward a common goal.

It's apparent, that you did not take the time to read up on the FACTS about the march, who was there, who endorsed it, and what was said. I suppose it's easier to focus on demonizing ONE person.

We are discussing the MARCH and the MESSAGE, from yesterday, not one "saviour" but unfortunately, some with ulterior motives, continue to divert the discussion from the actual march and message that was put out yesterday, to an ad hominem attack on one person.

I REALLY wonder about people who can be so negative about an event where the message was: UNITY,RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY, CIVIL RIGHTS, ANTI WAR, and ANTI POVERTY. I found it incredibly inspiring!

Seeing nearly 2 MILLION people gather on the mall, to promote PEACE AND JUSTICE, left me with feelings of HOPE.

[goclark]

118. We are working at the local level ~ that does not stop

the MMM nor does it or should it stop Farrakan from speaking out about injustice.

You say that the March was not effective?

That is laughable!

Since slavery, African Americans have been able to whisper their message from person to person.

To this day, when two Black strangers see each other in a mostly White setting,our eyes go down and then we quietly look up and say hello to the perfect stranger.

I was in a Mall with my White friend once and she asked me why did I speak to the lady that I didn't even know, she was really puzzled.

I laughed and told her that we were speaking to each other in "Slave Talk." She was completely blown away! She loved it.

I say all that to say that let's say that there were 800,000(MSM would say a few hundred) people at the March. By last night at 8 PM multiply that message by 12+ x's that many that heard on the phone , " Girl!The Rev. Farrakan was too cool! He looked so good in his pinstriped suit, in front of that pretty fountain of water and he broke it down to GWB! He broke it down!!!"

The Brothers and Sisters have Tivo'ed and Save that March for all there friends and family that missed it on TV.


You keep on talking and working at the local level.

Black leaders and other Black people will keep on creating discussion/action by any creative and sane means necessary.

We are weary of waiting for Whites to tell us what to do and how to Drown.

We will not stand for it.

[Skidmore]

139. Local work is necessary but there needs to be a national

voice as well. A roar coming from the people. This is the voice that the world hears and for the last five years the * regime has been trying to suppress it. It cannot be contained. As for LF, he has a right be one of those voices. I didn't hear him set himself up as a savior. I heard him appeal to all people to join together to address the issues of poverty, corporatism, and corruption. He told us all to think outside the box and to go back to our communities and be instruments of change. He said nothing different than we have been saying on these boards from the safety of our homes. He said it loudly, in public, and it resonates. Truth resonates. Can any of us do better than to tell the truth. I will not denigrate a man for speaking the truth.

Can we do better than to speak the truth? At this point, if Balaam's ass were to appear, he can speak on my behalf, as long as it's the truth. Let's step out of the PR box thinking. Truth cannot be contained in a PR box. It needs to be spoken now more than ever. I think LF's speech was one of the greatest I've heard in my lifetime.

[EST]

22. Beautifully done.

I would like to address a point or two. The angst displayed by representatives of both pro and con is highly misleading--not all, of course, but most.
That misdirection is most apparent to me when looking at my own reactions. The emotional door slamming is not about LF; it is all about the slammer's own reactions. This may seem like such an obvious point that it should go without saying, but it is a primary source of discontent.

Case in point: I know very little about LF, and much of what I have heard is very damaging. When he appeared on c-span, I tuned in a bit late and did not recognize him. The first few minutes, before I knew just who he was, I picked up on an identity. From his words, mannerisms, and persuasive position, I got the impression that he was someone who was desperately trying to be the center of attention, that he wanted recognition that he was a leader of substance who was closely related to Islam, that he was an extremist who was trying to appear palatable to moderates, and that he hadn't a clue about the lives and times of "real" people. Still not knowing who he was, I experienced an immediate negative reaction and was tempted to move on without even finding out his name.

Given my propensity for attempting to be fair (easy mark?) I tried to look past the almost overwhelming impression of him as a phony of outrageous proportions and listen to his message. It was tough. The minute or two before I figured out who he was established that he was a phony who didn't really mean any good to anyone. I still don't know what he actually wanted everybody to do-the message I got from him painted my perception of him so thoroughly that whatever good he might be trying to accomplish simply did not penetrate.

My own notions got it the way of the truth. My conclusions about his being a lightweight, trying to be somebody, were too strong for any of his message to come through. Would this be the case, no matter who was presenting it?
My own conclusions tell me that he is the wrong person to have on your side, whatever your side represents. He may be a wonderful man but I don't want him helping me-let him go help someone else.

[BronxBoy]

32. Thanks

And, to the point of sounding nauseatingly repititive, I'm in no way suggesting that LF is the answer to many of the problems facing the Black community. While there were a lot of things that he said that were positive there were some things that he said that I wasn't comfortable with: Two being the establishment of all of the Ministries and the Buck a Week pitch at the end.

But I have to take LF out of the equation and look at the issues he's speaking too. I tried to make the point that progressives are for the most part standing by while Black youth are demonized and ignored. Of course, all of the folks who take exception to what I wrote continue to focus on Farrakhan

[AnnInLa]

24. I like what Oliver Willis has to say:

Oliver Willis is one of my favorite Progressive bloggers....he works for and with David Brock at Media Matters....he is African American. He says this:

# Million March Revolt

I’ve never purported to be any sort of leader for black America. The current crop of “leadership” is rife with crackpots like Farrakhan (who also happens to be an anti-semite), and hustlers and shakedown artists like Sharpton/Jackson.

snip (Critique of Sharpton being a media hound.)

Jackson was once a shining star alongside Rev. King, but in his latter years it’s much more about Jesse than black America. He uses the Rainbow Coalition to address real grievances, but his remedies more often than not involve cutting a big check to Rainbow/PUSH.

Farrakhan is a race-baiting conspiracy monger. He’s the black David Duke, plain and simple.

Real black leadership, leadership that wants black Americans to go forward and fix its own problems can be found with folks like Barack Obama, Bill Cosby, and yes - Oprah. Though I have a strong distaste for the brand of empowerment he sells, even a guy like Russell Simmons is more useful and uplifting for black Americans. Even a guy like Colin Powell is a decent leader, if he hadn’t been led around on the nose by a guy like Bush. Sadly most of the black “leaders” on the right are simply front groups for the same caucasian funders on the right who would prefer for black people to roll over and play dead (BOND, Jesse Lee Peterson and that crowd).

I personally fall into the Bill Cosby camp. I think America has a legacy of racism that, while marginalized, still exists to this day. But I think we’re at the point where black Americans have a whole lot more to say and do about the future of black Americans than white Americans do. I think a culture that values dirty rap, sneakers, and basketball players is dooming itself to mediocrity. Until that changes, black Americans are screwed - and if we’re screwed, so is America.

http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/10/15/million-march-revolt/#comment-9817

[ultraist]

40. That contradicts what the majority of the Black community is saying

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/07/AR2005100701838.html?nav=rss_metro/dc

The focus of the event is not the only difference between the first march and this one. One key difference is that Farrakhan is no longer considered an outsider. Black leaders, including D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams, fully support this march, seemingly without worrying that some of Farrakhan's past comments -- criticized by some as mean-spirited, sexist and anti-Semitic -- will tarnish them. Farrakhan, who survived a bout with prostate cancer, said he has also grown in the past decade. Instead of a purely black, nationalistic message, he said, his goal is to join forces with all like-minded people.

"We must attend to the needs of our people, but we must also form strategic alliances with Latinos, Native Americans and the poor people of this nation to find common cause, to pool our resources and to reshape foreign policy," Farrakhan said. Gay leaders will also be among the speakers, he said, a point of contention in the gay community for the first march.

A list of speakers has been compiled and, like before, includes representatives from national groups such as the Congressional Black Caucus, entertainers such as Russell Simmons and academics including Cornel West.

[AnnInLa]

70. So, the Gay Community was welcomed?

Black gay activist blocked from speaking at Millions More March
by pamindurham
Sun Oct 16, 2005 at 05:34:55 AM PDT

(From the diaries -- Plutonium Page.)

Keith Boykin, and bigot Rev. Willie Wilson.



Several days ago, there was a meeting between Keith Boykin and members of the National Black Justice Coalition (NBJC) and Millions More March (MMM) leader Louis Farrakhan over GLBT representation at the march.

Keith Boykin was chosen to speak, but at the last minute, as he made his way to the podium, he was turned away by the homo-bigot co-organizer Rev. Willie Wilson.

Wilson was making sure that no one at that march was going to hear what Keith had to say about homophobia and the black community, or the need for gay visibility, recognition and acceptance.

http://pamindurham.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/16/83456/926
*

[BronxBoy]

76. And this is something

the Black community is going to have to come to terms with. We can't speak with integrity about inequality if we are tolerating inequality within our own communities. I heard this Brother yesterday on a local radio station and he didn't sound bent or vindictive but to be honest yesterday was the first I heard about it.

Listen, I have no clue why someone would get bent of of shape about who someone else is sleeping with and chooses to spend their life with. Whatever floats your boat is my motto: As long it's consenting adults, ce la vie. But that's just my take.

There are obviously some people who feel that whatever Black support Bush recieved came predominantly from churches pushing the whole gay marriage Bullshit. I think that's true to a certain extent but I feel it's more about the lining the pockets of a few than a preoccupation with gay marriage by the Black community

[ultraist]

84. Good points. And 90% of the Black community votes Democratic

I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The FACT is, there are some ideas and beliefs about Gays, within segements of Black Faith community that I do not agree with.

YET, the LARGE MAJORITY of Blacks continue to vote for the party that is most aligned with Gay rights.

Same thing applies to abortion. Most Blacks I know that belong to a church, do not believe abortion is right, YET, they continue to VOTE for the party that supports pro choice legislation.

[goclark]

41. So tell us White People, Who Do You think We Should Listen To?

I am getting really weary of White people deciding who our leaders should be.

Until you have walked in the shoes of our ancestors, I would suggest that we can listen to anyone we want to listen to.

I am not telling White People who they should listen to!

I have seen many threads here that say,"Black people seem to be able to cut through the bull shit and get to the core of a problem."

Why is that? It's because we have had to deal with soo much bull shit being thrown at us, we can cut through it.

And, one of the bull shit items that I continue to reject is White Americans telling us who our leaders should be.

As Bronx Boy says, Black Americans have closely followed LF for years,just as we have followed Al and Jesse and MLK.

We know and understand his good points and his bad ones. We do not need White America to tell us his blemishes. We know them , we ain't crazy!

If we listened to White America, we would not have followed MLK because he was called a "communist" and he "had girlfriends" that the FBI listened in on for us.

If we listened to White America, we would not have the gift of Jesse Jackson and Cynthia McKinney and on and on. Why, because White America kept on letting us know they did "bad things,"

No thank you, we will choose who we want to listen to, we can not trust White America to do our thinking for us.

[BronxBoy]

54. And why should we trust their judgement anyway?

Maybe 10% of Black folk voted for Bush while 50% of White folk did.

(Of course this statement is overlooking the whole Diebold issue!)

[ultraist]

55. Well said.

It's important to consider the source and the possibility of a hidden agenda, which sometimes is really not so hidden.

I'm not a religious person and do not agree with all of the doctrine of the faith community, but there is NO DENYING that the Black faith community historically has been and continues to be a powerful force for Civil Rights, and who cannot respect and support that?

I find it inspiring that the NOI is unifying with other Black churches and orgs to work towards the common goal of helping "the least of us."

http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/news/PNBC.htm

The support and endorsement of the National Progressive Baptist Convention is in keeping with God’s mandate, to help, the "least of these," said Minster Louis Farrakhan, National Convener of the Millions More Movement. "The coalition of leadership being developed among our leaders is a history making experience that is long over due and that will resonate among the masses of our people."

The National Executive Director of the Millions More Movement, the Reverend Willie F. Wilson, a PNBC pastor from Washington, DC who is the senior pastor at the Union Temple Baptist Church said "this endorsement and full participation of the Millions More Movement is a major step in the right direction for our people as we begin to mobilize and strategize to empower the masses of our people to improve their status in the arenas of health, education, economics, politics, strong moral and spiritual values. The PNBC ‘s involvement in the movement parallels its rich legacy as a champion for social justice, which is the agenda on which it was found."

PNBC leaders resolved that "it will covenant in solemn agreement with the AME’s, AMEZ’s, Pentecostals, other Baptists, Muslims and like-minded faith communities and organizations such as the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP),the National Council of Negro Women (NCNW), the National Urban League, National Federation of Colored Women’s Clubs, fraternities and
sororities and countless other organizations in dedicated leadership, resources and programs to create the spirit of unity among our people for the accomplishment of a shared destiny."

?

[Talismom]

71. I totally agree and would be saying the same thing if I were in your shoes

goclark. There is no reason for whites to presume to advise blacks or for the latter to pay heed to such advise. It's just absurd and obnoxious.

What we need to do is to listen and learn and finally act together in a way that shows us able to walk the walk.

The DU and your participation is invaluable in getting this across and I, for one, am grateful.

[goclark]

75. Your words made my day Talismom...thanks!

We need to all work together to make this a better world.

If we continue to pick each other apart, we are playing right into the hands of GWB.

Now, GWB is really the enemy!

[IndyOp]

88. I would like to ditto Talismom's comment and ask -

is there a political discussion site - majority AfAm - that I could read/participate in? At DU this weekend a lot of energy has been wasted in debating about Farrakhan instead of focusing on the issues and the diversity of people who are participating in working at all levels of govt. Suggestions?

I posted this yesterday and got two replies: Finally! Good Coverage of the Million More March - Al Jazeera

:kick:

[goclark]

90. Here is the link to The Black Commentator

I visit the site often to see what the topics /issues are that I have missed in the MainStreamMess.

This link is to an article that was written leading up to the March.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/154/154_samad_millions_march.html

[wildeyed]

116. We have an AA forum here at DU, too. n/t

[malaise]

94. And that has been my only point

since the ANSWERS rally.

[jeffrey_X]

173. F Bill Cosby

What is he doing right now to help the situation?

The only thing he's done recently, is repeat back to us what we already know about a portion of the black community. That portion of the black community he's referring to, doesn't give a shit about Bill Cosby or his take on their situation. So in the end, what has he really done?

If he really wants to do something....anything, why isn't he on the ground level getting his hands dirty, organizing or anything to educate the target audience he's insulting in the first place.

I'll take Michael Eric Dyson over Cosby any day of the week.

[mcg]

25. denigrate victims - typical propaganda

"First we were left to the mercy of a storm and then we were subjected to some of the most fucked up stereotypes this side of Amos and Andy."

It's typical dishonest propaganda. Aggressors don't want to be honest about the evil they do, so they denigrate their victims. It helps to squash that pesky thing called a conscience.

They use their 'wicked tongue' as a weapon.

"The stroke of a whip maketh a blue mark: but the stroke of the tongue will break the bones." - Ecclesiasticus 28:21

"A wicked tongue is worse than any fiend" - Geoffrey Chaucer
http://www.librarius.com/canttran/manctale/manctale309-362.htm

Why there isn't more of an outcry against the hate talk spewed by right-wing media? How can anyone who claims to be ethical stand for it? How can someone who claims to be a Christian tolerate it? Jesus said to help the poor, not 'insult the poor'.

[ninkasi]

30. This is all just such a sad mess...

I watched in horror as the people of New Orleans suffered and died. As someone pointed out, if reporters and their camera people can get into the city and film what's happening, why can't FEMA get in to help? I live a little north of Houston, and have heard some of the comments about what's going to happen if "those people" settle here. Well, one of MY first thoughts, and I'm not proud of it, was hey, great, maybe we'll get some decent blues players to open clubs, and maybe we'll get some really good New Orleans style cooking!

My feelings were about trivial things, but the point is that people driven out of their homes by a hurricane, abandoned and left to suffer agonies and die by their government, and sent all over the United States to places they didn't want to be, and made to feel unwelcome by the communities they were sent to, all of this is being added to a list of past injustices. How could there NOT be a simmering rage ready to boil over? As BronxBoy points out, if Louis Farrakhan is one of the only voices addressing what black communities need and want to hear, then we need to start listening to him.

It's the message we need to concentrate on, and not the messenger. It's not getting the black vote that should count with Democrats, but getting the message, understanding it, and acting on it. I am a white woman in her sixties, and grew up seeing four restrooms in every public place...white women, black women, white men, black men. Same for water fountains. Things like that had to have hurt deeply, and left lasting scars.

All of us here at DU are angry at the way the Bush administration has damaged our country, shredded the Constitution, pretty much destroyed the middle class, and lied us into an immoral war. In fewer than five years, we have become outraged by what conservatives have done. Black Americans have been living under one Bush administration after another for many, many years. The presidents were different, but the treatment amounted to pretty much the same thing.

We've got common cause, and it's important for us to hear the message. Rational people are not going to embrace LF's NOI and change their views on deeply held personal beliefs, necessarily, but are thirsting to hear the words that do have meaning for them. They are going to agree with the points that validate their own personal experiences and beliefs, and if he's one of the few speaking in public, then he's one of the few they're going to listen to.

Great post, BronxBoy.

[BronxBoy]

34. Thank You

And let me go on record now as saying that the Black community has to take a deep look in the mirror and come to terms with a lot of issues. We need to hold our leaders more accountable and come to grips with some uncomfortable issues within our own communities.

Look I have major problems with the way Bush and the Feds handled FEMA. But I also have now problem calling out Mayor Nagin as well. Especially in light of the fact that quite a few people posted here that he was a Bush supporter. If anything, by being a Black Bush supporter, help should have gotten there sooner rather than too late. And I've noticed there's been some reluctance to place some of this shit at his feet.

But you can't get on national TV on go on a tirade about the lack of help from a President you supported. And we Black folk need to hold him accountable

[goclark]

191. I heard that Nagin WAS a Rethug and switched to Democrat

when he ran for Mayor.

There were threads about it here.

He is NOW a Democrat.

[lavendermist]

47. So true, Ninkasi

"Black Americans have been living under one Bush administration after another for many, many years. The presidents were different, but the treatment amounted to pretty much the same thing."

Excellent post, BronxBoy

B

[bobbieinok]

119. also white woman 60+....furious that what progress there has been in

civil rights since the 60s is being destroyed and that blatant antiblack remarks are 'just fine' with many people

[Catherine Vincent]

42. Great post as usual Bronxy!

:smoke: (and I don't even smoke!):-)

[BronxBoy]

85. LOL

Me either...

Not really.....

Only when Mrs Bronx does.....

I have asthma.....(I really do!)

Only when my glaucoma acts up....

:eyes:

[Gregorian]

44. Beautiful post.

You nailed it, man.

I think you need to hear my side of this. In a state of disgust, I stopped watching network news in the mid 80's. I dropped out. I didn't even know what it was I was angry at until Bush came along. I was just a white kid who discovered that punk was the exact expression that I also felt. My hip hop. In fact, I've begun to notice radio shows that play those two genres side by side. It's pretty cool. We get along. There's a lot of anger, needless to say.

My point is, there is a timelag. And it's time. We lagged. We learned. And now we're ready for unity.

I really think the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine brought us this damage. And until we have the media, as well as nonelectronic voting procedures, we're going to have to be doubly focused on our mission, for it to congeal.

I missed LF's speach. But I watched most of it. And I came away from it having witnessed strong, beautiful, and dignified people.

The obvious racism multiplied by the blatant hipocracy, exposed during NOLA, have more than just black people enraged. This was ugly beyond anything I could imagine. We're in this together now.

I hope and pray that we come together more than ever. Because WE have the power.

[BronxBoy]

65. I agree with you totally....

And now Clear Channel wants the ability to buy even more stations in the same market. Jeez: Why don't we just have one station totally dedicated to Clear Channel. Fuck everything else.

And I agree about the lag. I grew up in the Bronx in the Sixties. I ran the streets 2 blocks where Diallo was gunned down but it was a very different area then. My house was always the hang out for the neighborhood kids. My Mom always cooked and cared for any kid. She took in foster kids, white, black, she didn't care. I have one blood brother but I have 3 brothers, 1 Black and 2 Puerto Rican. Most of my teachers were Jewish and they taught me well. I like to cook and NY when I was growing up was a living breathing classroom when it came to cooking. IMe and one of my brothers befriended a guy who owned a spice shop on Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. For those of you who don't know Arthur Avenue, it is an Italian neighborhood in the NOrth Bronx in which the mob was the end all and be all. You didn't go up to Arthur Avenue and fuck around. Anyway, this guy would just sit and talk and give us stories about vaious spices and how to use them. It was fucking great.

Don't get me wrong, there were racial divisions but they didn't seem as ugly or as viscious as they do today.

I hope we come together too because it's going to be as ugly as hell if we don't

[femrap]

121. On 'Democracy Now,'

I listened to a speech by Micheal Eric Dyson....

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/14/1353201

I sent this link to a bunch of my friends. It was a great speech...gave me goosebumps. I don't know anything about this man...has anyone heard of him?

We all need to work together to get rid of these neocons and bring back our democracy where there is liberty and justice FOR ALL!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Very fine post, and all your points are well taken

PS...if you are tuning into Rap...check out Michael Franti's "Stay Human" disc....probably the best rap political commentary to date

[bonzotex]

49. Right on, thank you!

The Democratic party has left a leadership vacuum. Why should anybody be surprised when someone like LF steps in to fill it?

Don't like LF and the NOI? Learn the issues, provide a better message, better leadership.

Farrakhan is to American blacks much like Republican demagogues are to poor and working class whites. He raises issues nobody else wants to be vocal about. His message comes along with homophobia and bigotry yet people still line up behind him because he addresses their other fears too.

This is not rocket science. Why can't our party get out front on these issues?

[cynatnite]

50. The man's stance on many issues are repugnant

In the ADL's history and mission statement they specifically name LF. Also, if you check out the Southern Poverty Law Center's list of hate groups you will find the Nation of Islam listed prominently. It's all there. I'll get the links for you.

This isn't some imagined slight based on the man's color. LF has a long history of anti-semitism and racism. His stance on other issues are completely counter to what I believe.

Just because he comes out and says one or two things I might agree with doesn't negate all the vile he's spewed before. Sure, he can come out and bash bush and the war. He can say what many of us thought after seeing the aftermath of Katrina.

But I can't in good conscience support this man in any way, shape form or fashion based on his disgusting racism of the past, his RW views and his questionable financial dealings.

Don't expect me to separate his repugnant stance on issues important to me from the man.

[ultraist]

63. Why are you IGNORING what went on yesterday...

and continuing to post OUTDATED info?

The MMM leader, Minister Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam, who, unlike Congress, has repeatedly refused to bow to the Wire Pullers, had written about the rally's laudable purpose earlier this year. He struck a universal theme for it, with spiritual overtones, too, when he wrote: "Christians, Muslims, Hebrews, Jews, agnostics, nationalists, socialists, men, women and youth are coming together in agreement that the time is now for us to articulate our demands, and to accept our responsibility to change the condition and reality of our lives. Even though we petition the government, our covenant must first be with our Creator and with each other." <4>


Are you more of an expert to decide how the Black community should organize than major Black leaders? Do you honestly think you think you know better than: the NAACP, "National Progressive Baptist Convention AME’s, AMEZ’s, Pentecostals, other Baptists, Muslims and like-minded faith communities and organizations such as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), the National Council of Negro Women (NCNW), the National Urban League, National Federation of Colored Women’s Clubs, fraternities and sororities and countless other organizations in dedicated leadership, resources and programs to create the spirit of unity among our people for the accomplishment of a shared destiny," the Congressional Black Caucus, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Shelia Lee Jackson, Cornel West, and others.

You seem to have a hidden agenda or not so hidden. :eyes:

[cynatnite]

80. Oh, yeah...I've got an agenda since I don't agree

:eyes:

He's still anti-semitic, anti-choice except in the cases of rape and incest, he still believes homosexuals can be 'cured' and he is still racist.

Should I ignore his well documented history of vile words because these words from yesterday happen to agree with only a few of what I believe?

I don't mind who stands with him whether it's Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and others. That's their choice.

But I won't ignore what he is because it's convenient and goes with the majority.

[entanglement]

112. Oh the horror of listening to Farrakhan!

It'll be yellow stars and Kristallnacht again if we do that!
:sarcasm:

[cynatnite]

52. SPLC and ADL information:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=17&m=3


http://www.adl.org/ADLHistory/intro.asp

The mission of ADL today is, as it has been in the past, to expose and combat the purveyors of hatred in our midst, responding to whatever new challenges may arise. Where once we protested admissions quotas at leading graduate schools, today we expose Internet sites devoted to Holocaust denial and white-supremacist propaganda. In the past, we challenged the anti-Semitic ranting of demagogues like Father Coughlin; in the present, we are no less vocal in opposition to Louis Farrakhan.

[goclark]

81. The LF of today or from past history?

Go on and continue to beat up the message of the MMM.

LF was not alone in that March.

He was not being anything but inclusive of every religion and person of good will yesterday.

Oops, I forgot, he beat the hell out of the NeoCons!

Maybe we should be declared a subversive group at DU.

Oops! We are declared a bunch of "crazy loonies" by the Republicans and the Bush NeoCons.


So, I guess anyone that is a Liberal Democrat is now declared to be,"BatShit Crazy" and not to be listened to for any thought that they we have in our heads.


We are for the most part...pro-choice,for Affirmative Action, pro Civil Rights, Anti Guns(horror,horror) and on and on with all those "crazy "ideas.

Huum ...subversive?

[Karenina]

115. My tailor is the only one in the world

who treats me fairly. Each time we meet, he measures me anew!

[Talismom]

57. This post was very informative and important! Thanks! kicked n/t

[jonnyblitz]

58. thanks for this post. it helps me , as a white guy, to understand

as much as I can without ever having had to walk in the shoes of my african-america friends and experience what you all have. it makes sense to me despite whatever reservations I have had about LF in the past. I confess I haven't followed him much since the first MMM in 1995 and I didn't get a chance to see the event yesteday so I am not in a position to judge. Besides that, I was willing to overlook some of the troubling aspects of ANSWER to attend and support their efforts in their anti-war events just last month so I would be hypocritical to get all pissy over LF without considering what you wrote above. this is a damn outstanding post if I ever saw one. I thank you for taking the time to write it out. :thumbsup: :hi:

[BronxBoy]

82. Thanks

I gotta look up these ANSWER folks. There seems to be an awful lot of animosity towards them when I read some of the anti-war rally posts I read.

Can anyone recommend a thread that details who these folks are and what the pros or cons of this organization? Thanks


And thanks for posting. And please take me to heart when I say that my intention is not to move you past any apprehensions you have about LF. but to get people thinking about the issues he can convey so effectively.

[jonnyblitz]

87. the animosity towards ANSWER is most likely warranted....

I support their efforts to organize these mass rallys to end the war in spite of that. there is proof that they lend support to some bad regimes, north korea for one . I don't have links handy and I have to get back outside to a backlog chores that got postponed due to the non stop rain (i am in the boonies in CT)..

I know exactly what your intention was and that was why I was so receptive to your message because i can relate. I am appreciative of the time you took to write this post out.

[BronxBoy]

95. The rain's really bad up there hun?

It seems the Northeast has been deluged this week. The weather has been very very freaky.

[Solly Mack]

66. I got sunshine on a cloudy day

Thank you!

[intheflow]

68. This post is right on the money!

Great, great post, BronxBoy. Thank you so much for posting it. Much food for thought.

[noiretextatique]

73. only 2% of african-americans approve of bush, inc...but

there are still some here fretting about the NOI, posting information from the ADL and SPLC, and generally telling people that oprah and bill cosby and barack obama are more appropriate leaders.
in the neighborhood i grew up in, compton, the NOI and the black panthers weren't considered evil crackpots or dangerous radicals...they were just another part of the community. i'm sure, if some people are honest, they can say the same about the KKK and the skinheads.
very few people i knew studied their religious stuff seriously, but of course given the racial climate of the times (the 60's and 70's), some of the NOI's beliefs did resonate with some folks. and as you mentioned, little has changed since then. the NOI has never been a mainstream religious institution in black america, and that certainly is not the case now.
MLK and bill cosby were both rumored to be serious womanizers...does that mean nothing they have to say is valid?
as you mention, black americans can't afford to demand the kind purity that some whites believe a "black leader" should have.

[wildeyed]

77. I grew up in DC in the 80's.

I remember there was a huge fuss about Farrakhan around that time, especially his antisemitism. During that same period, DC was suffering from a horrible crack epidemic. We had murders everyday. It was scary and unsafe for many of the city's citizens. And NOI had security details in the projects and in some of the worst areas trying to keep the peace. So the attitude among most of the white DC residents I knew, even many of the Jews, was ok, the guy is wrong about a lot of things. But he is there. He is doing something. He is trying to save lives.

Maybe the same is true for today. There is a huge need in the community. And LF is willing to try to fill that need.

[goclark]

83. Excellent point nt

[dretceterini]

91. There are bigots

on ALL sides of the equasion, and I would include JJ, LF and AS as three of them.

[PittLib]

92. First of all ... great post.

I understand what you are saying about LF. Though he might not always say the right things (to be sure), he is saying the right things now to inspire people to listen - and the only one doing so.

I recently had a conversation with an acquaintance who was leaving to provide aid to Katrina victims. He is a NYC firefighter who was involved in 9/11 - and he asked if I thought the response delay was racial. My immediate response was "yes" ... but that seemed too simple. So I began to dig down through all the crap in an attempt to get to the root of the problem. I'm not sure I believe that it was so blatantly racist - but classist. People were left to endure the aftermath, not so much because they were black ... but because they were poor. Discrimination based on class is much more acceptable than when based on race - because many Americans want to believe that equal opportunity actually exists. And it is justified (in their minds) that while you can't change the color of your skin, you can change your socio-economic standing. This speaks of a much greater issue ... and a more insidious and deeper, yet more subtle form of racism. The focus has been shifted to allow us to blame the victims, without forcing us to recognize or attempt to solve the real problems - such as disparity in education. Simply being born an American does not mean that each child starts on a level playing field and has absolute control over their destiny. It just isn't so. So I think the question should be - why were the impoverished in NO (and in the country, for that matter) predominately black? It seems to me that Republicans do their best to ignore/deny the problems - and Democrats at least attempt to resolve them ... but generally fail, sometimes making the situation worse. Just think about welfare ... while I feel that it is absolutely necessary, flaws in the system have a created a detrimental dependency and have contributed to the racist/classist shift. Saying GWB doesn't like black people certainly provokes the proper outrage - but at what? And will it serve to force people to acknowledge the real issues ... or will it further isolate and disillusion? It just seems misguided ... to blame one man or administration for being racist when we overlook that fact that it is the entire structure and certainly is not a revelation. This is not new, and as much as I despise GWB ... the problem will continue to exist no matter who the president is unless we start working together to solve it.

Democrats, progressives in particular, need to look at the bigger picture if they wish to be truly progressive. I get called a "purist" quite a bit - and franky, though implied as negative, it suits me fine. I see all of our fractured "big tent" groups as having the same goal - to be equal in the eyes of the law, to have equal opportunity regardless of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation or religion. And everyone wants their voice to be the loudest, and are a little to quick to throw the rights and concerns of others under the bus to achieve a personal goal. How can we honestly be proud of our strides when someone else continues to be denied? "So what if the candidate is anti-choice and against gay rights? He's pro-labor!" It is this kind of thinking that will keep our party fractured ... until we learn to fight for the rights of all people, not just ourselves.

Now I know that LF is serving a purpose. I also know that while this may serve politically, LF himself, is not a politician. So applying "absolutes" to him does seem a bit pointless. I do not, however, feel the same for politicians who are willing to fight for some and not others. This is where we need to be absolute if we ever expect positive progress.

[BronxBoy]

99. You bring up a lot of valid points....

And what's interesting to me is that, now more than ever, progressives have the opportunity to develop and solidify coalitions and I hope to God that we do it.

Take Drugs. Blacks were absolutely castigated during the crack epidemic So what's happening today. Crack use is down but Meth use is through the roof. And whereas, crack decimated Black neighborhoods, Meth seems to stalk it's victims in the White heartlands of America. And in it's wake, it's leaving all of the attendant problems, broken lives, Grandparents raising grandkids, utter despair. Seems like an issue where somehow some bridges can built.

Progressives have a very hard job in that they have to try to please a wide divergence of opposing viewpoints. The current Conservative establishment seems like it would sooner take you out back and put a bullet in your head than try to reconcile viewpoints that don't toe the party line.

Democracy is messy work but someone's got to do it.

[goclark]

100. Right Bronx Boy and the MMM filled a deep hole

in America that was not being addressed.

Al Franken and Randi have filled a big hole but they are preaching to the choir.

Jesse,the CBC, Nagin were trying to scream about Katrina and NO but few would listen. In fact, the MSM, alias MainStreamMESS, has been screaming that Nagin didn't know what he was doing and he is stuck on stupid and on and on.

Nagin is just one more Black leader that has been marginalized and not able to be as effective as he could be because the Media/GWB has lead us to believe he is "batshit crazy."

The Brother is not crazy, he is cocky and Whites don't like a good looking cocky Black Man giving directions!

So up pops Farrakon to fill in a BIG BIG GAP of TRUTH to POWER!

He organized an amazing group of humanity,and delivered his message BOLDLY and POWERFULLY!

Kanye had it nailed,"George Bush Don't Like Black People" and it ain't only GWB that don't like Black people. When we were drowning in the water waiting for Fema's Drownie to get us,Whites liked us.

When one of our leaders dares to speak up for us and tell the WORLD the same thing that we at DU have been saying day after day, post after post and NO ONE HEARS US but ourselves --- a hole needed to be filled.

LF scored a home run yesterday.

Let's work to make his message come true...

MESSAGE: REGIME CHANGE!! HELP THE POOR! STAY IN SCHOOL! STOP TAKING DRUGS! BE CONCERNED ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES!

[PittLib]

127. Indeed ...

coalitions based on a common goal - not the temporary bullshit going on now ... election cycle to election cycle. I went to a League of Pissed Off Voters forum (how appropriate) and an underlying topic was coalition building. Now, the environmentalists had their spokesperson, and the Stonewall Democrats, and the labor movement ... and so forth. The woman that was supposed to be there to represent women (Planned Parenthood, I think) couldn't make it ... fine by normal standards, but we are looking at a major senate race where the two claimed front-runners are "pro-life". I'll never forget ... when asked about creating alliances, the person representing the homosexual agenda said something to the effect of "I don't really know how environmental issues factor into our struggle" and the labor rep said (again paraphrased) "We held our nose for women (and voted pro-choice) in the last election, if you don't do the same for us in this race ... don't expect anything from us again." I almost came out of my skin. The sentiments expressed were fucked up beyond belief. So ridiculously self-serving, and missing the entire goddamn forest for the trees. This is the problem.

As far as the drug problem, I understand your point to an extent ... it is difficult for me to separate. While there are "epidemics", there is a fine line between what can be described as a social issue and what amounts to personal choice and accountability. How people are punished (for drug crimes), and the pervasiveness in certain communities is of huge importance ... but otherwise it is an individual issue (again, education and opportunity are key). I'm not trivializing the issue, but I'm trying to keep this within the boundaries of politics (accessible to all with a mind and a vote) - which is somewhere between finger pointing and trying to save the world ... one way too easy, the other impossible in its scope. But indeed, bridges must be built. Please forgive my stupid characterizations but - in a simple "chicken or egg" scenario, I liken Republican ideals to "a strong individual creates a strong community" and Democratic ideals to "a strong community creates strong individuals". Take care of the whole, and it will take care of you. Therefore, I cannot ask for myself what I would not want for my neighbor. We are working toward the same end and when we begin to recognize that ... all the petty infighting and compartmentalization will cease to exist. This is a pipe dream ... believe me, I know. But I still believe that a small number of people can incite enormous change. We have to stop compromising. The sacrifices made are not minute ... they affect lives - not bank accounts. If we could fight for the rights of all Americans (and human beings, for that matter) with the same ferocity as some Repubs fight for their bottom line, just think how much power we would have. Should we be indignant? You bet your ass ... but let's leave the self-righteousness to the right wingers and truly support one another.

Yikes - three beers, and I jump right up on the old soapbox. I'm such a lightweight.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

101. Beautiful post.

It makes me crazy when people -- especially progressives -- spend more time discussing how people of color should RESPOND to the evil of racism, then they spend on the evil itself.

I frequently feel the same way with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We are more concerned with how Palestinians respond to the occupation, than with the fact of the occupation.

[spooky3]

117. welcome to DU, ProgressiveMuslim!

[Orrin_73]

264. Welcome ProgressiveMuslim

its nice to see another muslim here on DU. :hi:

[Field Of Dreams]

103. Outstanding post

You summed up a lot.

[qanda]

104. What's happening now with LF and NOI on DU

Is the exact same thing that happened with ANSWER a few weeks ago. Buying a clue would be helpful for some on DU, but your post certainly is a very good start.

If anyone gets a chance, listen to Mr. Derbyshire on the 10/14 Washington Journal program, he's in the second hour. It will give you an idea of why black people are so angry and don't really care who is speaking the truth, as long as they're speaking it. Warning: Major Barf Alert.

[fujiyama]

105. I have a black friend

who is Muslim. I asked once what he thought of 'Nation of Islam' and he didn't think much of it. I somehow get the impression that many Muslims (African American and otherwise) don't care for Farakhan or NoI.

While there is anti semitism in the black community (just as there is among whites as well), a majority don't subscribe to Farakhan or his nutty beliefs. Fahakhan seems like a charlatan and a fraud, like Robertson but arguably, only slightly less hateful.

[Aimah]

123. African American Muslims

The largest group of African American Muslims in the US follows Warith Deen Muhammed who is son of Elijah Muhammed who technically should be the leader of the NOI if you go by NOI doctrine. After Elijah Muhammed died in 1975 WD Muhammed started to progress more so towards "Orthodox" Islam. He has about 2 Million or so supporters. That being said not all African Americans follow WD Muhammed.

[dsc]

106. I am trying to imagine what your reaction would be if I justified

LGBT people and politicians rallying around a racist who happened to be pro gay. Black people, like any other people, get to choose their leaders. Black politicians, like other politicians, get to decide who to rally with. But both groups, like any other group, also have to bear responsibility for those choices. Farrakhan is flat out biggoted against LGBT people and Jews. It doesn't get simpler than that. I could, and if you demand it I will, find lists of statements made by him that show him to be exactly what I said.

While, there certainly should be more people saying what Farrakhan is saying about race, he isn't the only one. Sharpton says many of the same things, Jackson says many of the same things, I would imagine that many others who toil anonymously say many of the same things. Any of those would be more fit to be followed than Farrakhan.

I wouldn't let a progressive white Congressman get away with campaigning with David Duke or Pat Buchanan (both of whom agree with us on the War in Iraq) so why would I let a progressive black Congressman get away with campaigning with Farrakhan?

[mzmolly]

113. He also advocated for and (may have) played a role in the death of

Malcom X.

There are many black leaders who are saying much of what Farrakhan says - and they are saying it better. There needn't be a compromise.

[Aimah]

124. Malcoms Death

From what I've been told by those in the NOI around Malcoms death it was the standard course for Ministers to say in speeches that Malcom should be killed. Farrakhan is as responsible as other ministers of the time. I don't think they really thought that someone would do it.

[mzmolly]

213. Malcom knew someone would do it.

And, I would venture to guess they did too.

[Aimah]

250. I know some of the people who did.

Most were just towing the line. I'm sure Malcom felt it. It only takes one or two idiots to take something to the next level.

[goclark]

174. But no one is listening to the other Black Leaders

As much as I love John Conyers,I mention DSM to my friends and they are not up to date.

I am Black and I can honestly tell you that NO Black Leader commands the attention the way Farrakan commanded it Saturday!

None!

Al Sharpton? No
Carol Braun - No
John Conyers, Obama, Jesse,Sheila Lee, Maxine --- they are all saying some of the same things but Farrakan said it with more force, he reach millions of African Americans and his message instantly reached around the globe.

Trust me on this one, as much as I admire those mentioned above, they did not say, "REGIME CHANGE, IMPEACH HIM!" in front of the White House.

They did not say it because they would be compromised if they did - he has nothing to lose and he/they knew he could say it.

It was designed that way. The leaders are all friends. They all LOVE our people and they know that he LOVES Black people.

One more thought.
We are weary of Whites telling us how to think, who to have as our leaders. We will make our own decisions!

White people selected GWB as their leader, they are in no position to tell us anything!

[Tomee450]

176. Thank you, Thank you, thank you.

"We are weary of Whites telling us how to think, who to have as our leaders. We will make our own decisions!"

I have been feeling the same way for a long time. It seems as if that old slave era mentality is alive and well. Only ole massa knows what's best for the nigras. I get so tired of it. It's as if people can't understand that black people are not stupid. If we had been stupid we could not have survived hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow.

[goclark]

195. We could not have survived Katrina and GWB either Tomee

Sometimes I think White people think we are "Stuck On Stupid!"

We have plenty of sense and we absolutely know when Whites are trying to tell us how to think and who to listen to.

In the neighborhood we would say," You ain't my Mama, you don't tell me what to do!"

[dsc]

207. Then don't dare criticise gays if they follow a racist

Being black doesn't make following a homophobic anti semite any better than when whites do so. I am sick of hearing excuses for bigotry no matter who the bigot is.

[mondo joe]

247. It makes me feel a bit like a fool for having argued against

racism with other gays.

Should I have put being gay above any objections to racism?

Threads like this make me wonder.

[mzmolly]

212. This "white" person isn't telling anyone how to think.

And I suggest you refrain from doing the same. Also, I am curious about the suggestion that black people are not thinking individually about this. I know plenty of blacks who think Farrakhan is a nut bag.

Additionally, Conyers (among others) has formally called for impeachment.

I respect your right to embrace who you wish, please respect my right not to agree with you on every choice you make.

[donheld]

107. You're dead on

Louis is being heard because no one else will speak up. Where are all the other leaders? If not Farrakhan who? Bronxboy is exactly right there is a huge vacuum. If people don't want Minister Farrakhan to fill it somebody else had better step up fast.

[entanglement]

108. Brilliant. Nominating.

:toast:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. I Agree With Most Of What You Say...

But we should be sensitive to anybody's pain whether that person be black, Jewsish, gay, Palestinian etcetera...


As Dr. King said "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere".....


And as far as the Southern Poverty Law Center didn't they practically bankrupt what was left of the Klan by successfully suing them in court for inciting violence that results in the death of an African American...


My moral compass tells me to oppose bigotry whenever it raises its ugly head...

[understandinglife]

111. Yes. Vote # 33.

Peace.

[Redneck Socialist]

122. Wow, that's the longest post...

on DU that I've actually taken the time to read all the way through in a long while. Well done and recommended.

[Nothing Without Hope]

126. EXACTLY. It's yet another indication of the failure of the Dem leadership

to reach the American public with a believable, forward-looking agenda and message:

The real question is how have progressives and all others concerned with LF's known bigotry allow such a vacuum to be created that Farrakhan can still have millions of Black people want to hear what he has to say, whether they like him or not.

[Tigress DEM]

128. If WE are to come together as a PEOPLE - not black & white, but as PEOPLE,

Then we have to be able to talk for real. OK?

A lot of what you said, I hear. And this whole Katrina mess had me saving documentation of support FEMA refused and such because I believe in getting the truth about what happened out there. Making this administration pay for what they've done.

I remember breaking down and going to my knees one night and I don't even remember exactly why, but I'm a mother and it was about someone's kid I'm sure. I worried for my sanity that night because my heart just didn't seem like it could take any more. Then I pulled myself together and it just clicked for me.

Those people in NOLA are MY PEOPLE. I don't care what color their skin is. THEY ARE MY PEOPLE. They are AMERICAN's and they did not deserve to be abandonned and have all forms of relief either delayed misappropriated or mismanaged.

In the Church these people are MY PEOPLE. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and this administration is killing MY FAMILY. I cannot help it that my skin is white, so do not condem me for it.

What bothers me about LF is that if WE are to HEAL this nation, WE MUST BE A WE. I would like to stand beside my brothers and sisters of color, and although I am good with one on one, in a group that has nursed on LF, I am a pariah and unwelcome simply because I was born the wrong color.

Part of me says, "Hey, if it takes an LF to get the needs met of the black community, then so be it." Yet even if he pulls together the full community, we are talking about 12% of the people, right? Can it be done even with the FULL Black Community? NO. So if it takes letting the white folk in to get it fixed, then let's get it done and quit fighting about it.

I went to DC for the Peace March in late September. It became an impromptu forum for the NOLA issues. Make Levees Not War, was a favorite saying. I listened to Reverend Sekou and that Rabbi from Tikkun and clergy from all over talk about coming together. The common theme was all the things we could be doing if we weren't in this wrong headed war. All the things we should be doing and NOLA was on everyone's heart. They were on the issues and did a little Bush bashing, but they left a lot of shit at the door and I suggest WE all do the same.

It is unconscionable that OUR government did through selective neglect murder all those people in NOLA. I will do what I can to see that they are held accountable for enough things that they get put away and I will stand up for everyone I see being oppressed just because that's who I am.

But even if every legal thing were fixed tomorrow and equality was a real here and now thing for people of color, if they believe in their heart what LF is selling, it won't matter. We'll still be divided and there will be no healing.

I'm not against the part of his message that speaks to the truth, but I'm afraid of any Bible banger that uses God's word to sprew hatred. It just isn't natural.

[Karenina]

143. In the words of the famous Judy Tenuto

"It could happen!!!" What screams at me through all the posts from white liberals demanding unequivocal denouncements of Farrakhan are the breathtaking assumptions of superiority held together by the superglue of denial. :popcorn:

[jaysunb]

163. Wow !!

what a great post ! :toast:

[Danger Duck]

170. Ok,

or it could be white liberal who dont want to support someone that is openly racist, a religious kook who believes in the Yacuba myth, and feel that the last time people rallied behind a leader who was so viciously anti-semite, bad things happened.

[Karenina]

230. Nuance much?

[Danger Duck]

234. Yes

about as much as you contribute something useful.

[Tigress DEM]

225. So what are you saying?

I didn't demand any unequivocal denouncement of LF. I just don't want to be held at a distance, and then have that distance blamed entirely upon me.

I think if Farrakhan can help this situation, then fine. Whoever can help this situation, more power to them. But in a lot of his solutions he's proposed there may be equality, but no real healing and I want the whole thing.

I'm tired of even having to think of black people as something other than people. And yet because of the gulf that still exists, I have to think that way and work toward getting the system fixed to not put barriers in their way that prevent them from getting ahead, not pass around them when good things are in the mix.

I just want the barriers that are up in the black community against having whites involved in helping either acknowledged or let down. I just want to get this job done. I don't want to see another NOLA.

This winter is going to be another kill off when people can't afford to pay their heating bills because the energy assistance bill is underfunded right at the time it needs to be pushed up.

I want to give honor to all the sacrifices and pain that has gone before, but I am more concerned right now with finding a way to get rid of the bozos so we can prevent major scale disasters from taking more lives and causing more division.

When I was in DC there were so many war memorials. I think we should put up memorials in our community to those who are being killed by prejudice, selective neglect and classism. We need memorials to tell us there is an ongoing war against people in our own community in order to get the message in tangible form so it is unavoidable. And hopefully one day those memorials will be documenting problems long since solved. History, not reality.

[Karenina]

231. Your obviously deep-felt sincerity

is refreshing. :hug: I would, however, suggest that you re-read your post above VERY, VERY CAREFULLY for it contains the water in which you swim and are unable to recognize or define...

[goclark]

194. I believed every word that he spoke

at the MMM.

He was not trying to divide Black or White people in any way.

He did not say one word that was negative about anyone EXCEPT for BushCo and Halliburton and the NeoCons.

He did not use God's words to preach hate, he used God's words in to talk about LOVE and togetherness.

But,I am beginning to believe that SOME White people thing we are sheep and that we will fall for anything our leaders tell us! Ha!

If you want to see some sheep, look in the White Folks Mirror. White Folks were led like sheep to the NeoCons!

Black people voted Democratic and solidly carried our votes and batted down insults,long lines and racism AND... FRAUD to vote for DEMOCRATS!

We were the heart and soul of the 2000 and the 2004 election and were treated like dirt by the White Man's Diebold.

So let's not go down the road that we don't know what to do with our minds.

That is an insult to our political intelligence.


He did not ask one damn person to join the NOI!!


Either listen to the speech or get off the computer keys until you do!

[Tigress DEM]

226. The speech was good. Words are powerful.

Hopefully it reflects a real change in attitude - an openess that hasn't been there before.

People can have issue with even DINOs who say all the right things, but don't get it right when things need being done.

I will say this much for LF he was up on the box, speaking out and I didn't even know that the MMM was being planned.

I'm not personally going to bash the man. I just hope that these things between the races can be resolved at least between those among us who believe we need to work together.

In the same way that a white person can't really understand living with prejudice, neither can a black person really understand what it means to want so badly to help and being shut out by an overwhelming attitude of hatred and mistrust.

I feel scared stepping into the fray and standing alongside blacks to support them at this time in the world. Thing is, if I get taken out trying to help, I can live with that. I'm an tough cuss though, I want it to be by the bad guys we are fighting and not someone I'm trying to help who thinks I don't have a right to be there.

[donheld]

228. Best post of all the Farrakhan posts!

I've seen more hate coming from DUers than any of the speeches I've heard from the Minister over the last 10 years.

[elehhhhna]

144. LF and the Fruit of Islam in Chicago--

I hired many of his org's members in Chicago when I ran a high-end staffing firm--here's my take: these folks were generally well educated, intelligent, moral, well spoken, well groomed employees. They had a strong work ethic and everything else one would want in a new hire or a temp.

He's either attracting a very solid African American middle class base, or CREATING one. I think it's the latter.

[Teena]

145. Not too crazy...

just enough. Farrakhan seems just enough on the seemingly "pissed-off crazy" side to spur some concerned Americans to action. I must admit he really turned me off in the days when he blamed everything on the white man. Not much later, he changed his message to encouraging blacks to take resonsiblity for their own lives. Thank you for that. Now he is jumping on the New Orleans issue when it is advantageous for him, but he is right in making this a national agenda to help the poor.
Incidentally, did anyone catch him on c-span last week? He brought up the military grade explosives found at the sight of the levee breech in the 9th Ward. Then the host whipped out a newspaper that had an article about three independent investigations looking into this. Interesting possibilty, don't you think?

[Danger Duck]

146. As someone who is Jewish

I don't care about his putting together a broad coalition. Hitler was good at that to. Its easy to bring people together when you have a scapegoat or an enemy. Its harder to bring people together to be responsible, accountable, and willing to work with all people. He is a hate monger, anti-semite, and outdated hack. The turn-out was dismal, the message was hate, and it will accomplish nothing. What the hell has changed since the million man march? I seem to hear from African Americans how things keep getting worse. Maybe putting a racist, insane, and race baiting man as your spiritual leader is a bad idea. Putting LF as the leader of a movement that is not even defined allows him to define it. A defense of LF is an attack on Jewish people, christians, and white people. If this is ok with you, go for it.

[jaysunb]

149. your sig line is quite appropiate for you post.

n/t

[Danger Duck]

152. Really?

maybe you should elaborate and find the lie in my post.

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/farrakhan_own_words2/farrakhan_own_words.asp

http://cosmicbaseball.com/farrakh7.html

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=82

And last but not least, from the Nation of Islam website, the explanation of Yacub and why all non-dark skinned people are "devils".

http://www.thenationofislam.org/muslimlessontwo.html

maybe you should create a sig line that indicates your fear of facts.

[Tomee450]

157. That 's your opinion.

Millions of people disagree with it. And why make things up. There were over a million people at that march. Maybe you should direct some of that anger to wards people like Pat Buchanan who certain does not display any love for Jews. I'd also like to know where were the leaders of your Jewish organizations when Bennett made his comment. I haven't heard a peep of condemnation from any of them.

[jaysunb]

158. Please, stop telling the truth !

don't you know it hurts. :rofl:

[Danger Duck]

159. WOW.

What am I making up??!!! And what Jewish organizations am I a part of? What sort of thinking is it that finds an organization at fault for not condemning Bennett? How angry do you have ot be at Jews to think like that? Generally, Jewish organizations address things that are related to Jewish people and issues, not universal problems or every asinine statement made by the hate mongers on the right. But your response is a diversion tactic. I've provided hard, indisputable proof that LF is an anti-semite and a racist. His own words! His organization, on there website, is calling any non-brown person a devil!

How blind do you want to be?

[Tomee450]

175. Take your blinders off

and perhaps you will recognize a double standard. You want to condemn Farrakhan but remain silent about other people who have also said things that might be anti-semitic. So it's ok for Jewish organizations to address things that affect Jewish people but not ok for Farrakhan to address issues that affect black people. You don't want a Jewish organization to be held responsible for not commenting on Bennett. Well, that's rather funny. You see, Jewish leaders often hold blacks responsible if they don't readily repudiate anything Jews have found offensive. And you and others can hate Farrakhan all you want. That is not going to make millions of people reject a positive message from him. We need positive messages in the black community. When Farrakhan speaks a lot of black people listen. I want him out their advising our youth not to take drugs, to try to stay out of prison, to get a good education. There are some people who care nothing about the problems of African Americans face. They only care that their hatred is satisfied and if a community suffers, too bad. That is totally selfish.

Many of the African Americans who have posted on this subject have said repeatedly that it's not about Farrakhan, but about his message, a message of self-reliance that people are attracted to. Yet, all you and others do is harp on the messenger. It's as if you are saying to the black community, I don't care if he does have a good message, reject him anyway. That's ridiculous. If I was drowning and David Duke threw me a rope I would take it. That in no way, however, suggests that Farrakhan is a David Duke as he clearly is nothing like that white supremacist.

I have not always agreed with Farrakhan but lately his message has been quite encouraging and that is what we need in the black community.

[Danger Duck]

198. Rope a dope....

he is the leader of a black supremist organization. His group anticipates and advocates a racial war. His religion teaches that white people are a product of bad science, inferior to all other races, and need to be wiped off the face of the earth. I don't care how positive his message is, he's simply recruiting for his cause. it's a common tactic in hate groups.

[Tomee450]

201. Nonsense

Nothing you've said is true. You need to start listening to Farrakhan rather than repeating what others have said. I've watched many of his programs and I haven't heard any of what you have reported. I would not pay any attention to him if he advocated hatred against another group. Farrakhan is being treated just like other prominent outspoken black men. Martin Luther King was treated just as badly. He was called all sorts of vile names, was considered a trouble maker. I believe he had missiles thrown at him when he marched in one of the suburbs outside of Chicago. He received that kind of treatment even though he was a man of peace. He was destroyed because people did not like his message which called for equality for black people. Farrakhan is outspoken. Even if he had never uttered words offensive to some whites, some other excuse would have been found to discredit him.

[Danger Duck]

203. Agree to disagree...

Look at my posts in this thread. I provided links to NOI and some quotes and articles, including the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I am not making anything up, or speculating. Everyone who has attacked me on this thread is acting out of emotion, not fact. I disagree with the sentiments of the original poster, respectfully. But LF is a racist, make no bones about it. Please don't deflect this argument into generalizations, I'm being very, very specific.

[Karenina]

232. I would dare conjecture

that it is your posts that reveal an emotional investment.

"Maybe putting a racist, insane, and race baiting man as your spiritual leader is a bad idea." WHO is the "your" you refer to?

Brown skinned people are NOT a monolith as you so insultingly imply. We are Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrans, Muslims and Jews too.

[Danger Duck]

233. Well Duh.

The "your" would be a reference to those people that acknowledge LF as their spiritual leader, or any other sort of leader. And if we're going to accuse people of being insulting, please refrain from asking a question about something I post, and answering it in the very same post. This tactic demonstrates that you don't even believe what you are writing. Making a statement that "brown skinned people are NOT a monolith" implies that I said or think they are. If you honestly got that out of one of my posts, I'm sorry, and I'd be happy to contribute to some sort of literacy related charity in your area.

[Karenina]

238. This is getting silly.

No one here is defending LF's rabid anti-Semitism. He's toned down his spew in recent years and for a change given vital points a public airing. NO ONE has been SO DIRECT about the sorry state of affairs in America at a public event.

I certainly understand that it is difficult to separate the message from the messenger. Considering the source IS important. However, my only interest in LF's utterances are confined to his speech Saturday. I'll tell you what, I'm THRILLED !!!SOMEDODY SAID IT!!! A whole lot more folks need to start saying it.

[Behind the Aegis]

161. Why don't you check!?

From the ADL: In the following letter to former Education Secretary William J. Bennett, ADL expresses outrage at his remarks on his national radio program linking the abortion of Black babies to crime reduction.

The whole letter is here: http://www.adl.org/media_watch/radio/20050930-Mornings+in+America.htm

[Tomee450]

171. And when did they write that letter?

It must have been quite recent and not immediately after the comment was made. In fact they were criticized for lack of response. I have heard black people mention the fact that Jewish leaders are outspoken against any black they think offends Jews and they demand that he be repudiated by every black leader. They have demanded no such thing of leaders of the Republican party. I've not seen any Jewish leader on television repudiating Bennett. And furthermore, unlike in the case of Farrakhan, no call has come from Jewish leaders for Congress to condemn Bennett as they demanded with Farrakhan. There is a double standard.

[Behind the Aegis]

181. Wrong.

He made the comment on the 29th of September. The statement from the ADL is dated 9/30/05.

http://www.adl.org/media_watch/default.htm">ADL to Bill Bennett: Use of Racial Stereotypes Offensive and Reckless 09/30/05
In a letter to former Education Secretary William J. Bennett, ADL expressed outrage at his remarks on his radio program linking the abortion of Black babies to crime reduction.

Now, where was the ADL citicized for lack of a response?

[Tomee450]

184. Wrong

I know someone who checked that site and they tell me nothing was posted. After criticism, we now see a letter. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Furthermore, you still haven't addresed the fact that no Jewish leader has called for Congress to condemn Bennett. Why not? They were all over Farrakhan. Is it that they only get outraged at someone they think is being anti-semitic?

[Behind the Aegis]

188. Conjecture

I posted the link that shows the date and your response is "that a friend told you it wasn't there?!" You also posted no links to criticism.

As for the other issue, which Jewish leader? Will this one do?

Leaders of the Democratic Party, such as Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, have demanded Bennett apologize, and some demanded that the Salem Radio Network fire him. (In the interest of full disclosure, Salem also syndicates my national radio show.) Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said, "I'm not even going to comment on something that disgusting." And Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-NJ, called Bennett's comments "reprehensible and racist," and announced he would introduce a resolution in the Senate condemning the comments. source

Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-NJ "The son of poor but hard-working Jewish immigrants (from Poland and Russia), Lautenberg was born in Paterson, New Jersey and served overseas in the U.S. Army Signal Corps in World War II after graduating high school. " source.

[Tomee450]

200. Well Harry Reid condemned

Bennett?Sure is a surprise to me. I watched the coverage and did not see Harry REid, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Shumer or Lautenberg on television commenting on Bennett. I did see Pelosi. I have nothing but the greatest admiration for Lautenberg who appears to be one of the most honorable men in the senate. This is the first I've heard of his resolution. But where are all the leaders of the Jewish organizations that were so out there condemning Farrakhan. Nowhere to be seen.

[Danger Duck]

205. Dude!!!!!

Concede!!!! He got you at every turn. First there was no condemnation, and he showed you there was. Next there was no calls to congress, but yet again, you were wrong.

You keep talking about African Americans that are upset at the Jewish leadership. Where are these folks at? In your living room? It sounds like you may have a problem with jewish people. Hey, don't get me wrong, speaking on behalf of the Jewish community, I can honestly tell you that we are people. And people, my friend, are the worst.

However, if you're going to accuse a whole set of people of doing or not doing something, why not throw some facts at us, instead of demanding that your opponents disprove a negative statement? Arguments are given more validity when you make a point that you can back up, instead of throwing out an assertion that someone has to disprove.

[Behind the Aegis]

206. Never happy.

You asked where a Jewish leader was committing a very specific task, I provided an example, but it is still not good enough. Because it wasn't on TV' it's not good enough. The ADL protested LF and condemned Bennett, still not good enough. Maybe its not they are nowhere to be found, maybe, just maybe, you're not looking!

[ultraist]

164. You didn't watch the MMM, did you? Turnout was dismal?

1.8 MILLION people is a dismal turnout?

WHO was the enemy?

Attack on Christians? One of the main organizers is Christian and many Christians were in attendance.

The message was hate?

You OBVIOUSLY didn't watch the event!

[Danger Duck]

168. 1.8 million? Ok. And White people were made by a mad scientist,

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051015/millions_march_051015/20051015?hub=TopStories

http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/national.cfm?ArticleID=2623

Here are two links. one to a south side black owned newspaper out of Chicago, the other to a Canadian publication. They, like other sane people, put the numbers at less then the 1995 event, and at less then a million.

LF organization, NOI, is anti-white, and anti-christian. I've provided links in this thread. Anywhere he goes, anywhere he speaks, the message is hate and intolerance, it is who he is. He advocates a race war, not harmony. And this is not speculation, you can read his own website people!!!!!!

[Tomee450]

183. So a black paper reports the

number is less than for the previous march. And just where did they get their information?From the same people who underreported crowd numbers before? There have been reports that over a million attended. The number for the first march was originally underreported also. No matter the actual count, there were many, many people at that march, all supportive of what Farrakhan and others are trying to accomplish. Why is it so important for you to downplay the importance of an effort to improve the lives of many people? Why is your hatred of Farrakhan so great that nothing else seems to matter?Seems rather selfish to me.

[Danger Duck]

187. Why do you

need to overstate the numbers? I said it was a dismal turnout. Maybe that wasn't a nice adjective. But it was less then in 1995. Fair enough? And it was not 1.8 million.

[ultraist]

189. Numbers were dismal? Ok, white people were made by a big guy in the sky

A white guy with a beard, in a throne, behind the pearly gates. :eyes: All religions have mystical creation theories. Get real.

I heard that number being reported from DC police but since all major media outlets are reporting generalizations, stating things such as, "thousands" turned out, we wont really know how many showed.

But what we do know, is that there were a hell of a lot of people there! Far more than showed for the anti war rally 9-24. I'd hardly consider that a "dismal turnout."

[Aimah]

Anti-Christian

Louis Farrakhan often preaches in Churches and uses the Bible more than the Qur'an when preaching....how is he or it anti-Chrisitan?

[Aimah]

251. Anti-Christian

Mistakenly posted twice.

[Sparkman]

151. THank you BronxBoy! VERY informative & inciteful. Hope Dems-r-listening.

If we nitpick every messenger's rhetoric for out-of-context interpretations, distort their REAL meaning and intent, that's dishonesty.
The U.S. has killed and enslaved and repressed non WASPs for CENTURIES!!! Any black man that is not angry would disappoint me.
But you have the message that makes sense to my understanding of reality, though I'm ignorant of so much of the implications as well as the individual histories involved here.
Louis Farrakhan ALWAYS rang true, in the total message, dispite any of his alleged personal predudices, from my Pacifica Radio monitoring.
The ADL has many criticisms of US social leaders, and they should continue to monitor every word out of every politician and social leader, BUT FACTUAL ACCOUNTING OF OUR MINORITY COMMUNITIES CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD NEVER BE SUBJECT TO SENSORSHIP BY ANYONE AT ANY TIME. The U.S. is becoming a Fascist state (corporate dominance of government) and turning the tide requires reporters like Louis Farrakhan, with inside knowledge and life experience or the Nazis will succeed in turning us against one another and by dividing us, march on unimpeeded.
Good on you BronxBoy, and persevere.

[NVMojo]

154. the message this administration gives black people is simple:

1) your vote/opinion/thoughts don't count

2) your lives don't count

It's that simple. The Bushco and their ilk are about white power and domination. They might as well put their hoods back on.

[Sparkman]

156. Romans were also about grinding, and killing and slavery of the masses

It's the oldest formula. Seems some here in DU think Euro-centric social democracy is the only answer from the left (an actual quote from a post above), but movements begin with individuals like LF.

[messiah]

165. Thanks for this post

it needed to be said.
Race has become a very powerful "surface" issue again in the black community.
I felt anger building within my self and in my own community here Toledo, Ohio even before the riots hit.
I hope Louis Farrakhans ideas have a good impact somehow.

[Catherine Vincent]

166. I notice some of you subliminally link Farrakhan with Hitler.

Let me remind you of what Farrakhan said about that:

"I have never desired to put another human being in an oven. I have never taught that Jews should be exterminated."

To compare Farrakhan to Hitler is asinine.

[Danger Duck]

172. Right

And if Hitler were alive today, he would say the same thing. "I have never desired to put another human being in an oven. I have never taught that Jews should be exterminated". Just like all of his neo nazi followers say.

[Catherine Vincent]

178. So are you saying that Farrakhan desires to put other human beings in

an oven?

[Danger Duck]

197. I'm saying

that he subscribes to the same anti-semetic beliefs that led to the murder of millions of Jews. He still espouses the beliefs, rather openly, of Jewish conspiracies and cartels, and is adamantly anti-Israel.

Look at this through a rational perspective. Why are people getting behind such a hateful person? I'm glad he's charismatic, so was Hitler. So is any madman to a certain extent. If this were some right wing dope, there wouldn't even be a debate. Remember David Duke?

[Tomee450]

202. I remember David Duke

and Farrakhan is no David Duke. The NOI does not advocate the lynching of people, the KKK does and Duke headed that organization. He is still preaching hatred as he goes to places in Eastern Europe and meet with their white supremacists.

[Danger Duck]

204. Try this on, see if it fits.

Taken from the Nation of Islam site, here is an explanation of why and how White people are the "devil", and why they should be eliminated( to be fair, if we are the devil, it makes sense we should be eliminated)

Tell us what and how the Devil is made?

ANS. The devil is made from the original people by Grafting (by separating the
Germs).
In the Black man there exists two germs: one - a Black germ, and one - a
brown germ.
Yacub, with his Law on Birth Control- separated the brown germ from the
Black man and grafted it into a white by destroying the Black germ. After
following this process for six hundred years, the germ became white, and
weak, and was no more original.
Also, by thinning the original blood, it became weak, and it is no more the
same. Thus, this is the way Yacub made the devil.

31. To make devil, what must you do first?

ANS. To make devil, one must begin grafting from the original.

32. Tell us the mental and physical power of a real devil?

http://www.noi.org/study/default.htm

[Catherine Vincent]

208. That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

Is that from their official website?

[Danger Duck]

210. yup.

[Tigress DEM]

227. I've always thought Bush was the thinly disquised David Duke.

I remember the way he smiled when he lost.

It was like, ok, we tried the front door. Now we'll just come in another way, without letting you know it's us.

Bush's young fundraisers are named after TX KKK groups. His grandfather worked with Hitler on banking stuff.

Blacks have a right to hate us for what's been done, but it's still a waste of time, because it keeps us from working together.

[Tomee450]

179. Oh sure,

now we are judging people by what they MIGHT do? If you are a white man coming down the street, should I, a black person,judge you by what I think you might do? After all there would be a basis for my fear. White men have lynched many black men, women and children. They have roasted them alive even going so far as to slash pregnant black women's stomachs. So maybe black people would be quite justified in judging white people by what they MIGHT do to them. The fact is this: HITLER DID PUT PEOPLE IN OVENS. FARRAKHAN HAS NOT, AND DOES NOT EVEN SUGGEST DOING SUCH A HEINOUS THING. To compare Farrakhan to Hitler is just plain ridiculous.

[ultraist]

190. How many millions has Farrakhan exterminated?

WEAK, dude, very weak.

[Skittles]

180. EXCELLENT POST BRONXBOY

:thumbsup:

I have never really known much about Mr. Farrakhan but I must say, I caught a segment with him on Washington Journal and I was impressed with his answer to a caller accusing him of racism - his response was long, detailed,full of inflection; simply stunning and could not have been better if it had been prepared as a speech. The gist of the response was, IT IS NOT *ME*, LOUIS FARRAKAHN, WHO IS CAUSING THE BIG DIVIDE IN AMERICA.

Bronxboy - the Supersome event - I am hoping that was not just a turning point of sorts for the Bush misadministration - it should be a wakeup call for us all. And I have long thought that the Democratic way of pandering to black folk only around campaign times has become predictible, wearisome and insulting.

By the way, I bought Kanye West's latest CD as a tribute to him and mailed it to some Marines in Iraq......they loved it. :)

[Spinzonner]

182. "Bush doesn't like Black people"

Didn't he actually say "Bush doesn't care about Black people" ?

Bush and the administration don't really care about anyone who isn't part of their base and able to contribute monetarily or politically to their lust for power.

So changing the quote to "like" changes the meaning of what seemed like a pretty accurate observation to one that was a personal characterization about Bush that doesn't necessarily seem justified by available information.

Sorry to nitpick but ...

[Catherine Vincent]

185. Correct. Bush doesn't care about anybody....but himself!

[tlsmith1963]

192. I'm White, and...

...I'm even pissed off about NO. It's disgusting. I haven't seen racism that blatant & sick in years. Kanye West told the truth. I had never heard West's music until recently, when I saw a trailer for a film (forget which one it was) which featured his song "Jesus Walks". I'm not really religious, but I was impressed with the song. It gave me goosebumps. All the hype about this guy is true.

Tammy

[goclark]

196. Kanye 's latest album is awesome

and selling off the charts!

I am well over 50 and his Rap is so appealing and really speaks to social issues.

I am a big fan now!

[FrankChurch]

199. The point iss....

The rally was not about Farrakhan
The rally was about black pain and unity. We can punch on Louis some other day, this stuff is good for the community. Better than the media showing that riot footage.

Black people cannot be told by whites who their leaders are.

[goclark]

211. Welcome to Du Frank!

Good point...it figures the more Whites try to tell us who our leaders should be the more we resist their ideas.

For example...if we listened to 50% of the White people we would have voted for the Crime Family.

[Sweeties Mama]

214. Goclark,

I've been reading thru these posts and loving you! You don’t give an inch! It's amazing how things don’t change. I'm a 66 year old grandma who was born and raised in Harlem. I remember eons ago when a white reporter pushed a mike in my face on 1-2-5 and asked for my comments on Adam Clayton Powell when he was going through his problems with being censored in the House. Even though I had some problems with ACP at the moment, I wasn't going for the bait. Being disappointed with my response, he had the chutzpah (sp?) to argue with me. How gauling! Here it is about 40 odd years later and they are still trying to tell us how to think about our black leaders!

I am also old enough to remember that MLK was excoriated and disrespected during his lifetime by many of those who wanted to tell us whom to look toward as leaders when he was trying to lead us with love. And while I'm so pro MLK’s vision of community, I'm wondering if some of those using Martin's words to comment here hold members of their family and friends to the same standard that they set for LF? Bigotry is alive and well in the country and it’s not only LF who’s exhibiting it. Look a little closer to home. Try to make some changes there.

[donheld]

216. Welcome to DU sweeties Mama

:hi:

[JanusAscending]

218. YOU GO GIRL !!

Welcome to DU !!! We are the same age, but I am a white widow of an African American "PRINCE" of a man!! He prefered to be called a Black man. Whatever, we were married in 1964, right in the middle of it all, and the beginning of enlightenment for me. I don't know whether you've read all the many posts on this thread, as you seem to be the last poster up to now. You will find a few of my posts, and a thread to another, previous to yours. I hope you find as much satisfaction on DU as I have! It is so refreshing here after continuous arguing and banging my head against the wall on Yahoo News discussion threads! The people who reply to those threads are either "perverts", or totally hard headed and IGNORANT! Welcome again, and enjoy this coffee and donut on me!:donut: :hi: DC edited for spelling

[Behind the Aegis]

219. Yahoo!

You actually debated (attempted to) on Yahoo boards?!?! You must have an incredible threshold! I used to read it a few times...then, the singer Aliyah was killed in that plane crash. The comments that were written there were so disgusting I cried for two days when some mentioned Aliyah! I couldn't get those horrible, crass, racist comments out of my head. I never went back. Well, I went back once from a link here. That time, the target was Jews, I was beyond disgusted and I will not read that site! It makes Freeper Central look like a rational place filled, with loving people! (For those that think I am exaggerating...take a trip over to the yahoo message boards, but do not say you were not WARNED!)

We may not always agree here, but to see that level of hate is VERY rare here, and usually, they don't last very long!

Welcome!!

[Ravachol]

223. M...well...

I have been, anonymously until now, reading all the DU articles and "responses/debates" daily for quite some time. To me, it has always seemed like I was getting another view of the USA, different of CNN and the likes.

I'm not an american citizen so it might be "somewhat" hard for me to understand how "deep" is this "race barrier" that some of you speak of. Or perhaps the recent event(s) just brought some oil on the ever-burning fire?

I'm kinda stunned to see that anti-Bush(co) militants have differences over "race". I would expect political disagreements (anarchists against maoists, moderates against liberals, etc.) but never expected such "racial" problems.

It doesn't seem logical to me that you guys are divided over a matter of skin when poor white, black, latinos (and so on) are all getting f.ucked by the Bush cabal. What matters is class, not skin, it is evident. I ain't so much refering to the original article - which is an interesting point of view even if there is a good number of generalities and some implicit demagogy - as I am pointing out at what seems to be a persistent "view" on DU.

It is pathetic to think that americans now vote "for the alternative" to Bush instead of voting for the best party. So, since Bush and co. (GOP) are a bunch of (insert any pejorative adjective here), the Dems should be getting your vote? I must have missed something about democracy... Asides from the economic growth of the Clinton-era, I'm sorry to say that USA was no heaven. Even the good economy must be replaced in its own context:
1)Good economy around the industrialized world.
2)It was a very liberal era and a lot of the "growth" was made on the back of the poor, as usual in a capitalist system.

Even if the two Bush (Mein Führer 1 and 2) started the two, consecutive Iraq wars, one must remember that Clinton is guilty of pursuing the "Oil for Food" program which claimed the lives of about 3000 iraqi babies and young children each month.

They are also guilty of collaborating with the Bush administration. Some of them, less. But for the good majority, they did and with great satisfaction it seems. The great number of your (americans) "leaders" are from the same class (is there any exception?). Don't wonder why there's so few of them denouncing the "Tax Cuts for the riches".

Speaking of "leaders", why are you people forced to always have "leaders" or wait for them? I think that's why I liked Bronx's initial message, actually. Why are you guys so fond of possible leaders? Can't you think for your own good?! You don't need a "national" leader to actually organize a movement, to fight the fascist and imperialist regime in place. You don't need a "national" leader to tell you when you need to go out to demonstrate or protest.

The USA don't need any regional riot, they need a revolution. And a march once in a year won't make a revolution. The bourgeoisie won't make a revolution. Only the people can. That's up to you, americans. If you truly want to "help" the world, start solving your own internal problems. :)

P.S: Bronx, I don't like the "you guys" kind of thing, as well. But I also don't like the "our people", "we think that", etc. It is nothing but demagogy and generalization.
P.P.S: Like tocqueville above, english is not my "native language" so excuse the grammar/spelling mistakes that might have occured.

[kwassa]

236. things are more complex than they seem

Ravachol:
"I'm kinda stunned to see that anti-Bush(co) militants have differences over "race". I would expect political disagreements (anarchists against maoists, moderates against liberals, etc.) but never expected such "racial" problems."

Welcome to the USA!

[Karenina]

239. Race is the gangrenous sore

consuming the Amerikan body politik. Quite a drag it is, really.

[donheld]

248. Welcome to DU Ravachol

:hi:

[Sweeties Mama]

235. Thanks for the welcome,

Donheld and Discerning Christian. I think I'll stay around here for a while. Interesting conversations. I did find your link, DC, titled, "I wonder???" I can see that you are sincerely trying to encourage dialogue and reason. Thanks for that too.

[goclark]

243. You Go Girl too discerning christian! nt

[Karenina]

240. Welcome to DU, Sweeties Mama!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[goclark]

242. I like your style SweetiesMama and thanks for the

inspiration, see my new post below.

I dedicated it to you.

[Tomee450]

252. Great post

and I couldn't agree more. Some of these posts are no different than those found on right wing Republican sites. So disappointing. I had forgotten how badly Adam Clayton Powell was treated. This country has a history of vilifying any black person who stands up and speaks against racism.

[goclark]

241. History Tells Us That Martin and Malcolm Were Friends

and shared the same vision for the Civil Rights struggle and for their people....

My remarks are dedicated to SweetiesMama, a new poster to Du and to another warrior Bronx Boy who has articulated the Black Rage so clearly - bless you both.....

I continue to think about Martin and Malcolm.

Oh how precious they were to our people and to ALL people of good will.

I was reminded the other day about how important Malcolm X was to MLK.

People thought they were enemies but they were not! They met secretly at least once but probably had go betweens that carried their Underground messages back and forth.

Martin played the "good guy" and Malcolm played the "bad guy."
Both gave their life for their beliefs. May they rest in peace.

But, when I hear a few saying that LF is such an "evil man," that "he hates them and on and on, " my Black Rage starts boiling over.

Listen to us "Liberal Democrats," you of all people should be kissing the ground that LF stood on last Saturday!

We love Conyers, Dean, Kerry, Wesley Clark, Rev. Al, Jesse, Maxine, Ted Kennedy, and all of the current leaders of good will.

We totally support all of them in their uphill battle to bring justice to America.

However,last Saturday, LF organized and PUSHED millions of Americans for,"REGIME CHANGE!"

It doesn't matter if SOME in White America want to get "stuck on stupid" and refuse to listen to his message.

His TRUTH to POWER is Marching on!

Just as Martin needed Malcolm X, Conyers and his warriors NEED LF to scare the hell out of White folks that are "stuck on stupid" and can't see that he is putting his life on the line to help LIBERAL Democrats of all colors and religious beliefs.

LF does not give a rat if White America loves him. He is not looking for Valentines! He is trying to rescue his people and that includes anybody that is bright enough to see that GWB doesn't like them!

In other words, GWB is treating every poster(except Freepers) just like his ancestors and cronies have been treating US since slavery.

Not a good feeling is it? Hell no!

That is exactly how African Americans feel every day! So don't dare tell us who to pick for our leaders until you get your own leaders a spine.

I am off my soap box for today.

[nini]

244. Farrakhan would have no audience IF what he said wasn't true

His methods make folks uncomfortable - which is the problem. They're uncomfortable because deep down inside they know his anger is justified.

There are many things I don't necessarily like about the guy. I believe, like many men in his position he takes advantage of his power etc.. BUT in general, putting the truth out there outweighs the other.


If the Black community had unlimited press access to getting the truth out Farrakhan would be a non entity.

[goclark]

245. If the MSM gave all Americans unlimited press access

GWB and the Crime Family would be a non entity.


The lack of a fair and truthful media that is controlled by corporate greed and the NeoCons is a shame for our country.

[Sweeties Mama]

246. Goclark,

Did I hear you say you were abandoning your soap box for today a few posts ago? Ha, Ha! Don't stop. I love your spunk. And thanks for the dedication. And thanks to all others for the warm welcome on my first day here.

I forgot earlier to thank BronxBoy for what he started with this discussion. Props to him too.

[Karenina]

249. What I wanna know

is if our fellow liberals here on DU can shut up and listen long enough to grok or even READ what WE are saying. :shrug:

[Tomee450]

253. I'm beginning to believe that

those "liberals" just want the black vote and only value the African American opinion when it's in agreement with theirs. Opinion that differs is greeted with disdain and dismissed. I find that attitude deeply insulting.

[goclark]

254. You are so right Tomee

Everybody loves Conyers! We love him too.

Everyone wants Sheila Jackson and Maxine to stay out in front of the issues. We did too.

Everybody was thrilled when Al Sharpton spoke the truth during the debates...even though they really didn't like him that much,they wanted him to bring our votes to the Democratic Party.

As Black Americans we wanted to deliver the votes to the party that we held all our hopes and dreams on,we so much wanted another Clinton, or JFK or RFK or Carter.

Everybody wanted Black Americans to vote in large numbers but when they were NOT ALLOWED to vote and were abused at the polls, NO ONE stood up for us.

As much as we worked for John Kerry, Kerry did not put up one ounce of a fight for all of our efforts. All he said to all his voters was, " I've got your back." And for Black Americans, as far as I can recall, he was silent.

Well we had the Backs of the entire Democratic Party and we have earned the right NOT to be insulted,especially by so called Liberals.

At least Al Gore will have my everlasting love, he went to Katrina and rescued our people! Now that is a real man with compassion.
Black America will love him forever.

[callady]

255. I can and do

But I'm not a 'liberal'.
Most liberals I know won't give up power.

[goclark]

256. I'm wondering about that too ~sad

[Rich Hunt]

261. what's funny is that...

Farrakhan is from Chicago, and he doesn't get anywhere near as much hype here as he does in New York.

It's always baffled me - seems to me it's New Yorkers who get so worked up about him.

He's just not a big deal here.

[Karenina]

262. It's the Anti-Semite Dingsbums

Which indeed he is. And rabid. The guy is not a "big deal" anywhere. Not in the black community at-large, not in the Muslim community at-large... But he's stepped up to the plate to put some truth out there and taken the flak. Not bad.

[goclark]

263. No, after the MMM he is a big deal all over the

Black community in every city and his voice was heard all over the world.

I understand what you mean about not a big deal in Chicago.

He is not a major player at all in Los Angeles.
The Black Muslims do not bother anybody.

That's why I can't understand why many WHO DID NOT LISTEN TO THE MARCH, can presume to know how much of a big deal he was in a much larger audience than Chicago or Los Angeles.


Those that did not listen, should.

[redherring]

265. We need to be aware of the fact that

the majority of Jewish people vote for democrats, and like it or not, Farrakhan has made many anti-semitic remarks. See here:
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/farrakhan_own_words2/on_jews.asp

Now even if Jews didn't vote for democrats, bigotry and anti-semitism should not be tolerated. Defending Farrakhan is wrong because of the simple fact that Jews have *faced* a lot of bigotry, and it was one bigot who started the biggest massacre in the history of mankind. Millions of Jews were killed in droves because of anti-semitic sentiments in Europe.

Farrakhan might be black, but condoning *anybody* who makes ANTI-SEMITIC remarks is plain wrong. David Duke makes anti-semitic remarks(as well as racist remarks against all sorts of people), but I doubt you would be defending him. So this double standard has to stop, since racists come in all colors.
I am pretty certain that if a Jewish person made racist remarks against black people, most people will not tolerate this. In similar vein, Louis Farrakhan, who is a known anti-semite, must not be tolerated.
We are a party, composed not just of black people, but Jews, Asians, homosexuals, atheists, etc as well.
Farrakhan is also a homophobe. Sorry, but he is not okay in my book.

Let me see how you people will defend this statement made by Farrakhan:
"So I said to the members of the press, "Why won't you go and look into what we are saying about the threats on Reverend Jackson's life?' Here the Jews don't like Farrakhan and so they call me 'Hitler.' Well that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't great for me as a Black man but he was a great German and he rose Germany up from the ashes of her defeat by the united force of all of Europe and America after the first world war. "


How ANYBODY can defend somebody who praises Hitler is way beyond me.

[CardInAustin]

266. Interesting....

Bronx,

Nice piece. However, I find it very interesting that you are saying we shouldn't be so caught up with LF's "other issues" because he happens to hit on some important issues that speak to the heart of Black America. Well, think of it this way. What if I said that you shouldn't get all jazzed about Pat Robertson because he does speak to some valid concerns of Christian Americans? Sure, some of his statements and beliefs are off the wall, but inevitably something meaningful will come of his mouth sooner or later. Pat Buchanon raises some very valid issues about labor, but I won't be asking anyone to overlook his other beliefs.

You can't expect people to overlook the monumental moral failings of someone who delivers a partially positive and relevant message. A serial killer (obviously I am NOT comparing LF to a serial killer) might talk about how great it is to love one's family. That doesn't make the serial killer a good guy, and also doesn't diminish the importance of loving one's family. So, when LF delivers a relevant speech about the concerns of blacks in america, I think it is important to hear those issues.....but they should not be given special weight because they came from LF....nor should they be excluded simply b/c they came from LF.

In short, LF if a very unfortunate vessel for such an important message.