Perle and Goebbels on Total War...1943 and 2001

[madfloridian]

Total war theory from 1943 and 2001: same thoughts, different enemy.

Richard Perle, policy advisor to G.W. Bush, 2001, in an interview with author John Pilger.
He describes it as a variety of enemies, and he doesn't seem to think it really matters which ones.

"No stages. This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq, then we take a look around and see how things stand. That is entirely the wrong way to go about it ... If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don't try to ... piece together clever diplomatic solutions ... but just wage a total war against these tyrants, I think we will do very well. Our children will sing great songs about us years from now." --- Richard Perle, policy advisor to G.W. Bush, 2001

Joseph Goebbels, 1943

"So total war is the demand of the hour. We must put an end to the bourgeois attitude which we have also seen in this war: Wash my back, but don't get me wet! The danger facing us is enormous. The efforts we take to meet it must be just as enormous. The time has come to remove the gloves! We must use our fists now! There is no excuse for only superficially and carelessly making use of the war potential at home and throughout Europe. We must use the full resources, as quickly and thoroughly as it is organizationally and practically possible. Unnecessary concern is wholly out of place. The future of Europe hangs on our success in the East! We are ready to defend it! The German people are shedding their most valuable blood in this battle. The rest of Europe should at least work to support us. Those who do not understand this fight today will thank us on bended knee tomorrow that we took it!" --- Joseph Goebbels, 1943 (Europe was the enemy)

Editing to put the link to Pilger's interview of Richard Perle.

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759

[UncleSepp]

1. Not the strongest comparison

The major thrusts of the Total War speech were to get Germans working longer hours for the war effort, and also to mobilize women to a greater degree. If you could find comparisons on those points, you'd have something.

[Fenris]

4. Very perceptive.

The part that rings true to me is Goebbels' description of "the bourgeois attitude which we have also seen in this war: Wash my back, but don't get me wet!" I think one could consider that a somewhat apt description of the current mindset in the states.

[madfloridian]

14. Not especially trying to prove anything.

Just that they love war, love total war, glorify it. There is a lot more that shows the propaganda methods back then and what is being used now. Striking and terrifying.

There were some great discussions here on this the last couple of years.

I may have saved them but would have to search.

[UncleSepp]

16. I've seen most of those... this is a pet subject of mine

I personally would like to see more comparisons of the propaganda methods of today with other, non-NS sources of propaganda. Almost all of the comparisons I've seen involve the Nazis and Goebbels, and I don't think that's necessarily the best fit. There are some critical differences to how propaganda is being done now and how it was done before the Internet, tv for the masses, and corporate ownership of news and entertainment outlets across multiple media, and I don't see that addressed very often.

[glitch]

2. So, Geobbels reincarnated as Perle.

Interesting choice.

Either that or Perle reads so much Geobbels he talks like him.

[UncleSepp]

3. Well that would be a hoot in a hat

Somehow I don't quite believe it...

[AlienGirl]

7. Naw, if Perle were Goebbels he'd be smart enough

not to use a phrase that everyone associates with Goebbels and Nazis and scary stuff--after all, Goebbels was *skilled* at propaganda.

We are lucky that the * regime *doesn't* have anyone as capable as Goebbels on its staff. It makes them easier to topple.

Tucker

[ExChickenFarmer]

8. They are definitely working from the old Nazi playbook

Too much that we've been seeing is lifted right from the pages of Mein Kampf.

No wonder they keep saying that W is Hitler's reincarnation.

[UncleSepp]

13. W couldn't be Hitler. Hitler could talk.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi ExChickenFarmer!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AlienGirl]

27. Psst...ExChickenFarmer is a friend of mine!

:bounce: I am trying to bring everyone I know to DU!

Tucker

[thebigidea]

5. that's not Perle, that's Michael Ledeen

at a conference Perle chaired. He did purr agreement with Ledeen, though.

Pilger just misquoted a transcript, he didn't interview Icky Dicky.

a got a million corrections after throwing in a little spoken line in a song muttering "here are those great songs they were gonna sing, Dick!"

[orpupilofnature57]

6. It's Kkkarl, or hopefully Was.

[madfloridian]

9. Please show your source.

The article is at Pilger's website. Ledeen is not mentioned. I went through this before...and we need to settle it.

I will look up Pilger's interview, you look up your source.

[madfloridian]

10. Here is the interview by Pilger.

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759

Two years ago a project set up by the men who now surround George W Bush said what America needed was "a new Pearl Harbor". Its published aims have, alarmingly, come true. : John Pilger :12 Dec 2002

The threat posed by US terrorism to the security of nations and individuals was outlined in prophetic detail in a document written more than two years ago and disclosed only recently. What was needed for America to dominate much of humanity and the world's resources, it said, was "some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The attacks of 11 September 2001 provided the "new Pearl Harbor", described as "the opportunity of ages". The extremists who have since exploited 11 September come from the era of Ronald Reagan, when far-right groups and "think-tanks" were established to avenge the American "defeat" in Vietnam. In the 1990s, there was an added agenda: to justify the denial of a "peace dividend" following the cold war. The Project for the New American Century was formed, along with the American Enterprise Institute, the Hudson Institute and others that have since merged the ambitions of the Reagan administration with those of the current Bush regime.

One of George W Bush's "thinkers" is Richard Perle. I interviewed Perle when he was advising Reagan; and when he spoke about "total war", I mistakenly dismissed him as mad. He recently used the term again in describing America's "war on terror". "No stages," he said. "This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq... this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war... our children will sing great songs about us years from now."

[thebigidea]

12. the quote isn't his interview: "He recently used the term again"

Pilger just misread the transcript. That quote wasn't told to Pilger. Again, just google the quote, Ledeen, AEI if you're somehow suspicious of my sinister plot to save Richard Perle's reputation.



actually, here you go:

http://www.aei.org/events/filter.,eventID.364/transcript.asp

just search on great songs.

(gag. actually, I wish I didn't find that. Ledeen calls Perle his "constant inspiration." I suppose combovers can be inspiring.)

[thebigidea]

11. surely you can google better than me. The conference transcript is online.

Several corrections were online at the time, as it was a popular quote. These neocons are easy to confuse, its not like they have any individual thoughts.

[madfloridian]

15. Pilger is referring to himself in the first person.

"One of George W Bush's "thinkers" is Richard Perle. I interviewed Perle when he was advising Reagan; and when he spoke about "total war", I mistakenly dismissed him as mad. He recently used the term again in describing America's "war on terror". "No stages," he said. "This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq... this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war... our children will sing great songs about us years from now."

[thebigidea]

18. he used the phrase total war in his interview...

... but "He recently used the term again in describing America's "war on terror"" is in reference to the misread transcript. Again, the link is up above. check it out yourself or google for confirmation.

Not something I want to argue about, its just that its probably best to have quotes attributed correctly when doing Nazi comparisons, eh?

You should see me when someone I actually care about is misunderuhestimaquoted, like George Carlin!

[madfloridian]

19. I did not misquote Pilger.

I posted what he said. If Pilger got it wrong, don't blame me.
You need to get in touch in with him and see if he will fix it if he is wrong.

I posted the link to the interview in the OP.

I did a search on Ledeen, total, war, children, sing. Got a lot of them.

I did a search on Perle and the same words, and I got a lot more.

If it is wrong, it is Pilger who is wrong and not me. I have been down this road here before, and I did not quote Pilger incorrectly.

[thebigidea]

20. yes, that's exactly what I said - Pilger misquoted Perle.

I never said anything about you misquoting Pilger, and in fact I'm slightly baffled as to why you're defensive and taking it as an attack on your accuracy.

again, you can read the transcript linked above where Ledeen says it, or you can order the video from CSPAN to hear him say it and hear Perle hiss "thank you, Michael" very happily afterwards if you don't trust the transcripts of the beloved AEI.

It isn't my responsibility to correct old errors all over the web, I just thought I'd give a fellow DUer a stage whisper about it.

The quote was catchy and disseminated widely, the corrections not so much. In the end, who cares - he's an evil little shit and it doesn't bother me now that I think about it that he gets that attributed to him. If its good enough for Caesar, its good enough for that pint sized wannabe.

and that as they tend to say, is that. fade to black!

[madfloridian]

21. Actually it is your responsibility.....

You say it is not your job to correct errors, but actually it is.

John Pilger has this on his website. It is still there after all the discussions here.

So you really should contact him about it. He is an honorable man and would fix it.

And you don't need to start the defensive thing with me. It is far more widely spread in a search with Perle than Ledeen. I asked you to give a source, you did.

Now it should be shown to John Pilger who can be contacted through his webiste.

[madfloridian]

17. You need to contact "brainy quotes", and many others.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/richard_perle.html

[Metta]

22. Herman Goering quote

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

- Herman Goering speaking at the Nuremberg trials after WWII

[madfloridian]

23. German Propaganda website from Calvin College. Fascinating.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/index.htm

And one of my favorites parts of a speech from the site.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb31.htm

From September 11, 1940.
SNIP...."Do not think that, as we bring about a certain order in Europe, we do it to harm individual nations. The freedom of individual countries must be brought in harmony with the conditions of the present and with simple questions of practicality. Just as a member of a family does not have the right to disturb everyone else's peace, an individual nation does not have the right to resist the larger order.

We have never intended to promote this ordering or reordering process by force. Although we are Germans, we do not wish to injure the economic, cultural or social characteristics of the Bavarians or Saxons. It is no more in our interest to injure those, say, of the Czech people. However, the two peoples must understand each other. We must be either friends or enemies. As I believe you know well from history, the Germans can be terrible enemies, or good friends. We can extend our hand to a friend and work with him. We can also destroy an enemy...."END SNIP

[arewenotdemo]

24. "do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq"

The rape euphemism is clear. Impotent soulless war criminals.

Hopefully, painful and ugly deaths await them all.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. Why wouldn't their propaganda sound the same?

The old school, wealthy, GOPers and the Nazis had the exact same teacher, Ivy Ledbetter Lee.


The Bush-Nazi Connection 1924-1942

snip

1933; what a year. HITLER officially starts his "New Order" and STANDARD OIL appoints a Texas oilman named William Stamp Farish as chairman. Farish moves to New York where he starts up a business relationship with Hermann Schmitz, chairman of German industrial giant I.G. Farben. Standard hires the "father of modern Public Relations" IVY LEDBETTER LEE to write pro-NAZI and pro-Farben copy for the U.S. press. Farish starts hiring Nazi crews for STANDARD OIL tankers and appoints Emil Helfferich (chairman of the Harriman-Walker-Bush owned Hamburg-Amerika line) as chairman of STANDARD OIL's German subsidiaries. Helfferich and fellow Hamburg-Amerika board member Karl Lindemann are authorized to write checks to Heinrich HIMMLER, the NAZI SS chief, on a special STANDARD OIL account.

The first hint of trouble comes in 1934 as a congressional hearing alleges that the Hamburg-Amerika line is indeed spreading pro-NAZI propaganda both in America and Germany. Over the next two years Standard increases its connection to Farben by completing a major stock transaction, but in the face of public disapproval tries to cloak its financial dealings with the German giant by hiring the firm of Sullivan and Cromwell to "bury" the funds. In 1936 Sullivan and Cromwell assign young lawyer ALLEN (Future first Director of the C.I.A. and brother to Future Secretary of Defense and airport namesake JOHN "Also on the I.G. Farben board of directors") DULLES to deal with the mess. In 1937 DULLES combines all of his de-facto laundering activities into one account: "Brown Brothers Harriman-Schroeder Rock," Rock signifying ROCKEFELLER and Schroeder being the name of the NAZI bank on whose board DULLES sat.

1939. Farish's daughter Martha marries Averell Harriman's nephew edward Harriman Gerry, and some Farish in-laws join the board of Union Banking. World War II starts.

June, 1940. I.G. Farben (30% shareholder of STANDARD OIL) opens up a slave labor camp called Auschwitz. MORE...

http://www.tabletnewspaper.com/old%20tablet/vol1iss1/grassy11.htm

**********


Bushbook The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush

"The Hitler Project"

http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm