DU'ers please READ and discuss this is an interesting post by

[stop the bleeding]

Peace Patriot part of another discussion related to the whole Plamegate debacle

Why would Cheney send Wilson or the CIA on a wild goose to Niger,
to investigate an allegation that Cheney and other Bushites knew was a bogus, and based on forged documents?

Why would a discredited allegation based on crudely forged documents be placed in Bush's SOTU speech, after it had been taken out of a previous speech because it was known to be false?

Why, when Wilson called Condi Rice, to get the regime to back off of the Niger allegation, did she say, through intermediaries, that she was not interested in his information, but, if he was so concerned about the matter, why didn't he publish it? (Wilson interview.)

Why--given that she said this--does the reaction to the expected article seem so panicked and rushed, with Bushites contacting at least SIX reporters (six journalist witnesses to treason), circulating a top secret memo on AF-1 for all eyes to see, and putting many top Bushites, if not the whole regime, at great risk of treason charges, in order to "punish" Wilson for the EXPECTED article, by outing his CIA wife within a week of the article's publication, and then, four days later, outing, disabling and destroying the entire CIA weapons monitoring program (Brewster/Jennings), putting all of its covert agents and contacts at great risk of getting killed?

Why the full court press to do this? Why not just ignore Wilson's article, as they had all other dissent--for instance? Or just quietly destroy his bank credit, or something? What did they have to fear from the lapdog press anyway? Why not let it fade into the short-attention-span newstream? Why risk the entire regime over an article?

And why, after destroying his wife's career and putting her at great risk, compound the risk of treason charges by outing the entire CIA weapons monitoring program?

Why was there such a stupid cover story for all this--put out by Rove--that Wilson being married to a CIA covert weapons expert somehow discredits Wilson, in undertaking a weapons mission to Niger, when, in truth, it would seem to do the opposite--it would seem enhance his ability to carry out the mission? Did this cover story get garbled in the translation (because it went through so many people)? Were its purposes confused, hastily cobbled together--say, to point away from Cheney as the instigator of the Niger mission, and at the same time taint Wilson in some way? (--but how it taints Wilson is beyond me.)

Isn't this "master of P.R.," Karl Rove, capable of a better cover story than this?

Why were Judith Miller and Scooter Libby meeting about Wilson back in June 2003, before he published his article, in addition to their meetings on July 8 and 12? (Wilson article published July 6.)

Why did the Bushites prime the public to expect a find of WMDs in Iraq, and why did Donald Rumsfeld personally sign Judith Miller's "embed" contract to accompany the U.S. troops who were hunting for WMDs in Iraq--if they all knew there no WMDs in Iraq? Were they simply hoping that she might find some by chance?

What was Tony Blair informed of, on July 7, 2003, when those who had interrogated David Kelly (the Brits chief WMD expert) told Blair that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things"? What were the "uncomfortable things" that Kelly "COULD say"? What ELSE did Kelly know beyond what he had been whistleblowing to the BBC about (the Brits "sexed up" Iraq WMD intel)? What caused such a panic among the Blairites, that they hunted him down within government, held him at a "safe house" and interrogated him for days, and then outed his name to the press, amidst a press frenzy, and sent him home without protection?

Why didn't Kelly's bosses or the Blairites provide Kelly with protection or surveillance, and, if they were watching him, after they sent him home, what was that surveillance doing while he bled to death all night out in the rain, near his home, from one slit wrist?

Is it just a coincidence that Kelly was found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances, four days after Plame was outed--or are the two events related?

Is it just a coincidence that Blair was told that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things" on July 7, 2003, that the Plame memo got onto AF-1 and Miller met with Libby the next day (July 8), that Plame would be outed a week later, on July 14, that Kelly was found dead four days later, on July 18, and that, four days after that, the Bushites then outed the entire CIA WMD operation?

Busy couple of weeks in the skulduggery world.

Is it just a coincidence that Judith Miller, who was thickly involved in outing Plame, was also the person to whom David Kelly sent his last email, on the day he died, warning of the "many dark actors play games"?

Is it just happenstance that Miller, in writing Kelly's obit for the NYT, on July 21, 2003, failed to disclose her close connections to Kelly (she'd written a book with him--"Germs") and his rather newsworthy email? What "dark actors"? What did he mean? What was going on? (Not a clue from Judith.)

To answer all of these questions, think about this: The Bushites were trying to plant WMDs in Iraq, to be "found" by Judith Miller--a "find" that would make the CIA (who had objected to the Niger forgeries, and the war) look like fools--discredit them, and make them more vulnerable to purges by the Cheney/Rumsfeld neocons; a "find" that would justify the war, save Bush's and Blair's political skins, and rehabilitate Miller's journalism career with a triumphant "scoop" that would "prove" her right about Saddam's weapons.

And consider this, also, on spec: Their dirty, massively deceitful scheme to take the weapons into Iraq to be "found" got foiled. (Several news reports in Pakistan and Iran about this in March 2003--covert U.S. arms unloaded at Basra; covert U.S. arms convoy hit by '"friendly fire"). David Kelly found out about the Bushite plot to plant WMDs in Iraq (he was an experienced hand in Iraq), possibly supported foiling the plot, and/or knew something about CIA involvement in foiling it. (The CIA's B/J had a worldwide network of covert eyes and ears upon WMDs, 20 years in the making.) He did not intend to disclose it (several items of evidence on this point), but he couldn't be trusted; he was already whistleblowing. And it was so explosive, so dangerous, to the Bushites and the Blairites, that all the top Bushites got involved in immediately silencing, disabling and punishing Plame--taking careless, panicky, highly risky actions to do so---and, when they got corroboration of B/J/CIA involvement in foiling their plot (possibly from the search of Kelly's office and computers after his death), they silenced, disabled and punished the entire covert B/J network (some of them likely forever).

The set up of Wilson/CIA (with the Niger forgeries, and the wild goose chase to Niger) intersected with the Kelly story on July 7, probably with a phone call from Blair to Bush (on AF-1) warning the Bushites that Kelly knew. They had intended to tie Wilson to the CIA and prove the CIA to be fools and useless, when the planted weapons were "found." Now the opposite was happening--THEY were going to be the fools (not to mention criminal falsifiers), if this ever came out.

It had to be stopped. That's why the rush and panic, the cobbled together cover stories, the risks taken, the involvement of top people, and the seemingly cavalier attitude about treason (or getting charged with it--not that they would care about it on principle or out of patriotism). They were desperate--even possibly to the point of ordering the murder of an insider white guy--Kelly.

This wasn't just about punishing an ex-diplomat for his dissenting article, nor about Kelly's rather mild statements to the BBC. This was about something far worse. And the WMD-planting theory is a very good guess as to what it was, and solves many mysteries about Treasongate (or points to their solution).

[cassiepriam]

1. It has always surprised me that they didn't plant the WMD...

that would have been the most logical move from a sociopthic standpoint.

[Montauk6]

3. Rogue narcs have been doing that sort of thing for ages

[cassiepriam]

4. ya, should have been easy to do when we invaded. And would have

made the most sense. But maybe they correctly figured the public could care less about the WMD lie and so didn't even bother with a plant.

[Montauk6]

7. And that's the crux of it , cassiepriam

They've probably been thinking that they can tell the public lies or the truth and it won't matter, the sleepyheads won't do anything anyway. This would explain how Bush would make that insane statement about not caring about Bin Laden anymore.

[cassiepriam]

12. Yah, instead of planting WMD they just kept changing the rationale.

We are there for blah blah blah reasons. They are so brazen they do not even cover their tracks. They do not have to.

[stop the bleeding]

13. why should they when the investigative journelists

either don't do their job or aren't allowed-

The media needs to get out of bed with the military!

[Uncle Joe]

76. What is an investigative journalist?

I have heard they exist in some countries, maybe in one those 26 nations that are ranked higher in having a free press, but I did not know there was also an American variation of this species.

[preciousdove]

26. Story was out on the net; soldiers being treated for radiation poisoning..

said to be friendly fire on a covert mission shortly after the invasion. Many died others had radiation sickness. I think a parent had blogged it somewhere.

I tied searcing radition poinoning and sickness but didn't find it.

[slaveplanet]

54. Yes , I remember that

There was a tread on DU about it & Infowars made a big deal about it at the time and I think even had an interview.

I remeber feeling at the time that it was the good faction of the CIA (possibly in conjuction with other foreign intelligence like France) that carried out the strike(friendly fire) agianst the rogue elements(Buscho) CIA...but very little info surfaced and the story died as usual...

[mithnanthy]

228. Yes...

I remember that. It seems, right after the invasion, they tried to plant some WMD's but had an accident and discovered it couldn't be pulled off, so the reasons for going to War began to change.

[Cronus Protagonist]

147. Come to think of it -

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=129

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

224. "Sprinkle them with some crack."

--Dave Chappelle

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. There's a theory on the net that they did try, and the mission got shot

down by friendly fire. But if it was shot down, wouldn't there have been traces of volatile materials?

[drdtroit]

21. Oh, they tried, but got caught!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0413-02.htm

[cassiepriam]

31. the repugs are like the three stooges

can't get oil from Iraq
can't get weapons into a war zone

[Sapphire Blue]

81. I sent letters to my senators, rep, members of the Intelligence Committees

... & numerous news sources requesting verification of the facts in that report... I didn't receive one reply.

[electropop]

108. The OP's article asks and answers a lot of questions I had wondered about.

Thanks so much for this. It makes a heck of a lot more sense now.

[Arkansas Granny]

41. That has always surprised me, too. Maybe they got scared off

by so many world leaders and pundits at the time saying that if WMD's were found then that too many people would believe them to be planted. Maybe they tried and failed. Maybe they didn't think it was that important after they had bushwhacked everyone and gotten the invasion they wanted. Once Bush gets his way, he doesn't seem to care what anybody thinks about the way he got there.

[cassiepriam]

44. I think all are possibilities except * worried about what others thought

he only works to the Joe 6 pack crowd. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks. And he knows he can work the american people.

[Arkansas Granny]

49. You're right about the Joe 6 pack crowd. They thought it was

great that we were kicking butt in Iraq. They were worked up to the point that they would were ready to invade France, if "W" (or Toby Keith) just said the word.

And Bush doesn't care. About anyone, about anything, besides himself.

[cassiepriam]

51. This is the crowd that sees the world as a football game.

There are still hostile France comments where I live.
Amazing idiots in this country.

[Arkansas Granny]

53. Yes, I live in a red state and France is still unpopular.

[cassiepriam]

56. For telling the truth, and standing up for what is right.

[cassiepriam]

170. Yes this is what happened. They tried, screwed it up. then decided

it didn't matter. The american public wouldn't care one way or the other.

[MADem]

64. They clearly wanted to, and then, when that plan got too dicey

they for awhile maintained that Saddam had somehow formed himself a great big convoy (like the song!) and rode through the night, and stashed the weapons anywhere from Syria to Yemen or points beyond!!

My question was, where are the satellite images? Ya need to prove that shit!!! We got cute little pictures of weather monitoring trucks that were supposed to be bioweapon portable labs, but what, no pics of convoys when we had at least one satellite, likely many more, in geosynchronous orbit over that Mess o'Potamia???

Then, after a while, they stopped beating that drum, and they did it all at once. No one brings up that bullshit story anymore, ya notice?!!!

[stop the bleeding]

65. Good point - I can't remember their name but there is a

company out there that has a satalite that takes pictures - and they operate outside of the gov. I saw a special on National Geographic once in relation to how photos were obtained on area 51 with this company- man I wish I would write this stuff down.

[KansDem]

93. Where indeed are the satellite images?

From Bush's 2003 "SOTU" address:

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html

500 tons? Isn't that 1,000,000 pounds? I'd like to see anybody try to move 1,000,000 pounds of anything without being detected, especially by the world's superpower with billion-dollar snooping technology.

Even if it's just what could have been produced, not actually produced. But you've got to wonder about how many pounds of raw materials that was...

[LunaC]

96. They tried - but blew it

See post #94

[tavalon]

105. Me too

Wehn the Iran Times (I think that was the name) mentioned seeing them bringing in WMDs, I started watching carefully but then no one else mentioned it. I wonder if Iran stopped them. There's irony somewhere in that, if so.

[cassiepriam]

167. I remember that too. I wonder if we will ever get the whole real story?

[Polemicist]

129. If it were easy to plant WMD, then it would have been done...

The difficulty is in the provenance of the WMD. Nuclear and biological weapons have a identifiable production fingerprint that can be used to trace the origin of the WMD. Chemical weapons do also to a lessor degree. Impurities in production, precursor chemicals and the ultimate purity of the end product are all identifiers of the source of the WMD. And for any weapons found, it would be necessary to track back to production facilities, existing or previously destroyed.

You just can't take bio-weapons from Fort Detrick, MD and dump them in the Iraqi Desert and have the resulting investigation withstand international scrutiny. Just as a child can't win the Olympic 100 meters race, a country lacking the necessary infrastructure, can't suddenly produce high quality weapons grade plutonium.

You must prove the provenance of the WMD for the charges to stick. And it would be far worse to get caught in a botched planting of WMD. The only agency we have that could possibly pull that off, was the CIA and they were very unhappy with the Bushies at that time. No help there for planting WMD to cover the butts of the ignorant neocons.

[al bupp]

158. These are some good points, sir

I do agree though, that the task of planting authentic-seeming nuclear weapons is much harder than most people think. However, I wonder if other intelligence services, besides the CIA, might not have been able to provide the necessary indirection of a supply of WMD. Perhaps elements of the Israeli intelligence w/ contacts to old Soviet, Chinese or even Pakistani sources of fissile material, packaged in some convincing way?

We know that the Neocons, in general, have numerous associations (and many allege, undo allegiance to) the Jewish state. One would imagine that any clandestine cooperation from that quarter could reasonably be expected to remain in the dark.

[cassiepriam]

171. Israel could and would do it in a heartbeat.

The only answer is that it was tried, but failed for some reason.
Bush realized he did not need WMD, the public could care less why he invaded. So he let it go.

[cassiepriam]

168. What about some shadow guy, like Ollie North in IC?

Heck we make most of the world's weapons anyway, how hard is it to find some legit looking ones somewhere? And move them in.
Remember how gullible the press and people are. Would only have to be one or two, just something for the press to pick up on. The public would have been eager to believe it.

[Tigress DEM]

159. Per the OP - the attempt was made, but foiled.

>>>>>> And consider this, also, on spec: Their dirty, massively deceitful scheme to take the weapons into Iraq to be "found" got foiled. (Several news reports in Pakistan and Iran about this in March 2003--covert U.S. arms unloaded at Basra; covert U.S. arms convoy hit by '"friendly fire"). David Kelly found out about the Bushite plot to plant WMDs in Iraq (he was an experienced hand in Iraq), possibly supported foiling the plot, and/or knew something about CIA involvement in foiling it. <<<<<<<

Remember 2 Americas very much present at this time. Those devoted to keeping the place in one piece and not getting into a stupid war, standing on one side. Fools with power, money and "God on their side" (NOT!) standing on the other.

Maybe this regime will topple a little easier than I first thought.

So much of their power came from dumb luck and back door scheming. Their plans are transparent when you look back at them.

[cassiepriam]

169. Yes, this makes the most sense to me. They tried it, but failed.

Gee why am I surprised? The three stooges could run the govt
better that they could.

[Marr]

192. Wash. Post interviewed an admin. official who said they'd considered it.

I read this article about a year ago. The official was unnamed, of course- but he admitted that there'd been discussion about simply smuggling WMD into Iraq as it was becoming clear that there was none to be found there.

Essentially, he said they didn't do it for fear of getting caught.

I wish I could find that article now. I'll keep looking.

[leanin_green]

195. I know, I always kept waiting for that move.

It seemed like the logical next step. I was dumbfounded when it didn't materialize. I've always wondered what could of happened to stop it. Maybe we're finally beginning to get to the heart of the matter.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Hopefully Fitzgerald is asking all these questions and then some.

[GrantDem]

127. Maybe he is

The media keeps harping on how this investigation is taking soooooo long. Longer than the Watergate investigation.

Maybe he has uncovered the deeper darker scheme and that is what is taking so long for a conclusion.

[pberq]

5. Best explanation I've seen - nominated!

This whole mess has smelled of something deeper - and Judy Miller's role has been unclear.

But this is the most plausible explanation for all that.

[havocmom]

6. Best guess: about destroying the entire CIA weapons monitoring program

The junta's puppet masters make $$ on war. They enforce their policies with fear of 'terrists'.

Ms Plames' network, built to monitor programs and provide REAL Intel on the REAL movement of weapons materials would have to be dismantled by Cheney in order for materials to be shifted and keep the warfare escalating all over the globe.

People mean nothing to the greedy corporate heads. Profit is everything and any means to that end is just fine. If it means hundreds of thousands (or more) dead, no big deal to them. It just takes the financial strain off of governments to take care of their populations. Means more bucks to be stolen by... greedy corporate heads.

[paineinthearse]

8. part of another discussion

Link, please.

[EuroObserver]

36. self-delete

(replied to wrong comment)

[countryjake]

84. Not certain if this is the discussion meant...

but here's a link to this analysis by Peace Patriot:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5039448&mesg_id=5039876

[stop the bleeding]

9. But more importantly - can we find out more about this theory by

doing some intensive reasearch in regards to any other articles or relative news events during this important time frame?

Blog people Blog.

[LunaC]

98. Post #94 news item

According to the article, we need to scrutinize the budget for the Dept. of Agriculture to see what other CIA operations were financed through there.

[stop the bleeding]

99. Great idea - Don't quit your tooooo valuable

where is Greg Palast from the BBC this seems right up his alley

[stop the bleeding]

100. Sorry this Duped

Sorry this Duped

[John Q. Citizen]

10. Interesting theory n/t

[bj2110]

11. Bravo!. Weapons planting definitely fits with this admin's MO.

[tk2kewl]

14. you ask all the questions I have been asking since the get go

and finally a plausible answer is provided to go along with the questions.

i never could figure out why they didn't just plant the wmd, but this is as good an explanation as i've heard so far


edit4spelling

[jasmeel]

19. Amen to that! I thought we were going to have to spend a bunch

of time questionning how the WMD got into Iraq after the fact. However, oddly that never happened! I can't imaging the * admin would have wanted their to be no WMD found.

[Arkansas Granny]

52. I had always assumed that the big hurry to invade was to get

the UN weapons inspectors out before they discovered that Saddam had actually disarmed like he said he had. I was surprised when our inspectors didn't "find" the WMD's when the ISG went out. I was sure that Bush would provide something for them to come across.

[bj2110]

16. Nixon got shelled for cover-up. And that's exactly what is being suggested

here. Outing Plame/BJ as a cover-up for being caught with WMD planting. Cover-ups have to happen quickly and without regards to any sort of plan. Too many loose e-mails and questionable timing. This reeks of the WH scrambling to fix something, not a simple revenge plot against Wilson.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

22. This is a fascinating theory

There are still some unanswered questions, though. Exposing the Brewster/Jennings operation would shut it down permanently, and quite possibly cause great harm to its participants. This fits in with a punishment/retribution motive.

But the facts of the WMD planting effort would be "out there" regardless, and couldn't be concealed. Plame and her surviving associates would still have the upper hand, they would have information that would be sufficient to completely bring down the White House.

If the plot were uncovered, Cheney's only viable option would be damage control: the permanent coverup of the knowledge of the plot. Destroying the intelligence network would guarantee retribution, and therefore would run counter to his own best interests.

This is why I still don't see a motive for exposing Plame and Brewster Jennings, other than simple revenge, which would be so self-destructive as to make it rather implausible.

[bj2110]

25. Yes, the theory needs to be investigated, no doubt. And there are

definitely holes in it. But, I think you started to hit the nail on the head, then changed directions:

"But the facts of the WMD planting effort would be "out there" regardless, and couldn't be concealed. Plame and her surviving associates would still have the upper hand, they would have information that would be sufficient to completely bring down the White House."

Bingo. And what better way to discredit the people who have the information than to expose their covert nature around the globe. How many foreign operations became failures that could be used against them? Who would believe that a failed WMD operation uncovered a WH plot to plant weapons in Iraq? The chances of a failed covert operatinos ever going public with anything are slim to none, regardless...

[hootinholler]

91. There's a stumbling block for the B-J network having the upper hand...

The Espionage Act. They must find a cleared person in a position to assist who is not compromised to disclose this to. A difficult task, and as the knight said in the Indiana Jones movie: "Choose wisely." Kelly must not have.

As to Cheney, what additional motives might he have to dismantle BJ? Hmmm, how about a brazillian stock options in Halliburton.

-Hoot

[bj2110]

30. Found a quote from Jack Straw (British Labour Party)

24 April, 2003. Jack Straw: "Given the fact that it will be American and British military who will be first on to any site, it will always be possible for those who opposed this military action to say, 'Oh well, they were planted'. Now, they won't be planted. We're going to immense care to ensure the veracity of the finds."

[stop the bleeding]

33. Link please and this is the type of info that needs to be uncovered

N/T

[EuroObserver]

37. Link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2972449.stm

[robertpaulsen]

126. How about this motive for exposing Plame/BJ: Cheney in business w/ Khan.

Have you read American Judas yet?

[StaggerLee]

17. Recommended!

Too good to miss!

[rucky]

18. This makes sense. n/t

[stop the bleeding]

20. Please people investigate this - just don't start slapping each

other on the back thinking that we've found the magic bullet.

It's a very interesting post by PP, but as I stated earlier we need to try and prove or disprove this thing and stay away from celebrating.

Just trying to be rational during irrational times

[hootinholler]

95. WeedLeaper,

You seek Waterman! Help you I can, yes?

I haven't been able to find the original "Waterman Paper" they reference. Still looking though.

-Hoot

[cosmicdot]

153. is 'this' the Waterman Paper???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/07/24_paper.html

The Waterman Paper

July 24, 2004
By H2O Man

This paper examines the possibility that Vice President Dick Cheney orchestrated the "leaking" of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity to the news media in the summer of 2003, in order to accomplish three goals.

These include (1) to punish Joseph Wilson for challenging "16 words" in President Bush's 1-28-03 State of the Union address; and (2) to intimidate other sources from publicly challenging the White House's version of events involving the "war on terrorism" and the US invasion of Iraq. Both of these goals are well-known from numerous reports on this White House scandal.

The other, (3) is that VP Cheney was attempting to derail an investigation that Plame may have been involved in at the time that her identity was exposed. This third potential goal has not been the subject of any major media attention.

The author of this paper put it forward on an internet forum, the Democratic Underground, in early July, 2004. The resulting eleven DU "threads," which consist of over 3,000 posts from interested citizens across the country, is the only known forum debating this theory.

Besides the eleven DU "Plame Indictment" threads, the information in this paper comes from the following four sources: The Politics of Truth, by Joseph Wilson; Worse Than Watergate, by John Dean; Don't Tread on Joseph Wilson, NYT book review by John Dean on 5-23-04; and Plenty to Swear About, by Joe Klein, Time, 7-5-04.

~snip~

[hootinholler]

174. Yes, I believe so.

I haven't read it entirely yet, but waterman or octafish or robertpaulsen can confirm.

-Hoot

[Peace Patriot]

190. Yes, I think that Cheney arms dealing, or other Bush Cartel skulduggery...

...and war profiteering are definite possibilities as motives for outing Plame and BJ, as well as for other Bushite anti-CIA actions. Not to be ruled out at all. And could all be true, with a WMD-planting plot being part of the corruption and skulduggery.

I was struck by the panic and stupidity of the way they outed Plame, and was looking for the reason for their precipitous actions in the week of July 7-14 (top Bushites involved, full court press; contact with at least six journalists, etc., to get her outed and disabled). When I read the Wilson interview about his contact with Condi Rice (her baiting him to publish his article), and realized that they expected the article, it seemed to confirm that their risky, precipitous actions during that week had to have another explanation--something UNexpected. I then stumbled upon the Hutton report item that Tony Blair had been informed, on July 7, that Kelly knew more than he had been whistleblowing about to the BBC (the "uncomfortable things" that Kelly "could say"), and I'd read somewhere else that Blair and Bush were in frequent phone contact during this period. (Bingo!)

I think we may have been misled as to the trigger for the Plame outing. It wasn't the publication of Wilson's article (July 6) but rather this revelation about Kelly (July 7) that caused them to out Plame and BJ the way they did. No doubt they had a number of plans to get rid of this and all honest information gathering at the CIA--of which the Niger forgeries may have been a part. I've speculated that they were baiting Wilson and setting something up--a discrediting of the CIA when the planted weapons were "found." And, bang, into this long term scheme came the news that the Brits chief WMD expert had a piece of this puzzle (evidence of the weapons-planting scheme), and was furthermore whistleblowing to the BBC about their exaggerated intel. And this prompted the flurry of high-risk activity by the Bushites from July 7 to July 14 (and possibly also prompted his death, search of his computers, and outing of BJ on July 22).

Someone upthread mentioned France. I have not thought much about potential foreign actors in this possible event (effort to plant the weapons, foiling of that plot), except for Israel, of course, on the Bushite side. But there are many, many countries and other interests in the world (the UN inspectors, for instance) who knew the Bushites were lying and opposed the Iraq war, and who might have played a role. When you think of the vilification of France by the Bushites, you have to wonder what was the cause of all that. France was singled out (among many opposers). There were also the BJ covert agents and contacts with eyes and ears on WMDs throughout the world. Any number of countries could have had a hand in foiling the Bushite plot. And it was, of course, a matter of world political importance--WMDs in Iraq--not just here or in England, with many countries, including small ones, taking great risks to oppose the Bushites at the UN on the strength of their disbelief in the weapons allegations. The Bushites were bullying and strongarming many countries. Imagine how they would have felt if they had stumbled upon evidence of WMD planting and had a chance to foil it.

The war profiteering corporate news monopolies, and we ourselves, on the left, may be helping the Bush junta promulgate the cover story of Rovian revenge (so easy to believe). It seems to be generally accepted that that was the cause of the Plame outing--and now that it's clear that Cheney/Libby and the WHIG were involved, that motive (revenge for a dissenting article) has been assumed to go higher up, but still the same motive. I question that. I think that their actions indicate a cover up of something far more dangerous to them than an opinion piece.

I'm not sure it was the threat of discovery of this attempted grand deceit (planting WMDs in Iraq). No one can be sure at this point (except those involved who are still alive). I'm just saying, it's a good guess--a really good guess. And I doubt I'm the first to have thought of it. I just got interested in Kelly's death, became intrigued with the coincidence of dates with the Plame outing, was struck by the risks the Bushites took--especially the involvement of so many journalist witnesses to treason--and have tried to connect the dots.

I am willing to be proven wrong--or to have this theory supplanted by a better one.

--------

Note: The other article (besides the reports on Pentagon whistleblower Nelda Rogers and the "friendly fire" incident) was in the Tehran Times, I believe, and involved an Iraq Governing Council member who saw off loading of covert weapons at Basra--weapons boxes with false Red Cross labels--and suspected an effort to plant WMDs in Iraq. A March 2003 article. I'm having trouble finding it. I thought I'd saved it. It's been cited in forums here at DU.)

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

23. that's some good shit. somebody's been thinking.

[mattclearing]

24. This is as good a theory as any.

Hopefully this is all coming out. I imagine getting this kind of highly classified material into a grand jury proceeding would be incredibly difficult. Fitzgerald likely has limited his aims somewhat...I doubt his case will extend to a WMD plant attempt.

If it does, though, this will be a fuck-up like the world has never seen.

[xchrom]

27. kick

[bunny planet]

28. This makes complete sense unfortunately. I was always expecting them

to find WMDs in Iraq soon after the invasion, and fully expected that they would be planted there. The American people had been so hyped up at that point, almost all would have swallowed the story that they were indeed found there and that all the dire predictions and warnings had been spot on. Evil, pure evil, is what we are dealing with. They wanted this war at any cost, murder, atrocities, lying, cheating, stealing, nothing is beyond these people. I just hope and pray Fitzgerald has enough to expose even half of the crimes these people have committed.

[bunny planet]

29. Maybe, as a last ditch effort, they'll try and plant them there now, to be

discovered just in time to save their asses from Treasongate. They have the new and (not)improved 'purged' CIA in their pockets, why not go for broke. Do I think it would work at this late date, no. *'s stupidity has always seemed like a cover to me, the danger was never really that he was stupid but that the BFEE assumed that we all were.

[Peace Patriot]

68. I suspect this is what Libby meant by the "aspens turning in clusters...

...because their "roots are connected," and that Judith Miller should "come back to work--and life"--to cover stories like the Iranian nuke program and biological threats. He may be going to take the "fall" for the Bush Cartel (will be vacationing, like she did, in jail), but the WMD planting op has been reborn and has been re-directed to Iran (he is telling her)? Nukes or bios will be found maybe crossing the Iran-Iraq border, and evidence manufactured that they originated in Iraq? All their skins will be saved and they'll have a new war? Just a guess. He says three or four times in the letter that he wants her to testify, and always has (uh-huh). It feels like a deal has been made to stop the investigation from going any further (getting to the root of it--the WMD-planting plot); Libby will do time; Cheney maybe will resign ("unindicted co-conspirator") and go to Halliburton Heaven; and Miller and the WMD propagandists will be vindicated in the end (or so Libby thinks) by whatever they have cooked up by way of new WMD "finds" to keep control of Iraq and get control of Iran.

I don't at all buy into any dissing of the American people or calling them "sheeple." They have opposed this war in big numbers since before the invasion (58%, Feb. '03--even before all the lies were exposed--it's over 70% today)--as well as hugely opposing torture "under any circumstances" (63%, May '04) and every other Bush policy. They just have no power. They have been DISENFRANCHISED, literally. Two far rightwing Bushite corporations now control the tabulation of the votes with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--a coup they achieved in 2001-2004 period. I think American voters don't buy the Bush Cartel's crap, never did, and tried to oust them--and flocked to the Dem Party and the polls to do so (for instance, Dems blew Bushites away in new voter reg in 2004, nearly 60/40), but got bushwhacked by the new, extremely hackable electronic voting systems (one hacker, a couple of minutes, leaving no trace), bipartisan corruption in the billion-dollar electronic voting boondoggle, and corruption/collusion in the Dem War Party faction.

To change any of this, we have to throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor'! A must do. First priority.

Long term project, I'm afraid, at the state/local level; doable but not easily. And, in the meanwhile, closely monitor current and '06/'08 elections, gather statistical evidence, challenge elections, educate the good election officials, purge the corrupt, etc.

(See www.votersunite.org, and www.UScountvotes.org.)

[lyonn]

152. Great idea, let's have a retake of the Boston Tea Party

Only we will be dumping voting machines right before the elections.

[bj2110]

175. Ding Ding Ding... on the head! We, the american people have been

awoken, I agree. Shit, the '04 election woke me up. That night made me realize the power in voting control. Unfortunately, we have an election "architect" (who may be going down now... :)) and absolutely no control over the integrity of the voting process. It's a ever-ending uphill battle as long as that fact remains. The election process belongs to the people, and we must take it back. I hope the whole administration goes down, Cheney, Libby, Rove, Hadley, Rice, and Bushie, too. But, I also realize that even if the cabal is cracked, there will be more fascist soldiers that will step right up and take the reigns. And without fixing the election process, the media will be astounded at the unshakeable Republican party, and how they overcame such monstrous obstacles to win the '06 / '08 elections, no matter how bad things get today.

[bunny planet]

32. Maybe some of this is what's in the 8 redacted pages.

Wouldn't that be eeeenteresting.

[mirandapriestly]

34. I know Wayne Madsen is not considered legitimate press, but

there is definitely interesting information here:
**** Plame leak damaged a major CIA investigation linking senior Bush administration officials to WMD proliferation. U.S. intelligence insiders have pointed out that the White House is using "Rovegate" and "Who in the White House said what to whom?" as a smoke screen to divert attention away from the actual counter-proliferation work Mrs. Wilson and her Brewster Jennings & Associates team were engaged in. The arrival of Timothy Flanigan as Patrick J. Fitzgerald's boss is likely related to the mountains of evidence Fitzgerald has now collected to indict senior White House officials, particularly, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, for criminal conspiracy in exposing a sensitive U.S. intelligence operation that was targeting some of their closest political and business associates. Libby, it will be recalled, was the attorney for fugitive global smuggler and multi-bilionaire Marc Rich, someone who has close ties to the Sharon government and Israeli intelligence. It is no coincidence that FBI translator-turned-whistleblower Sibel Edmonds uncovered nuclear material and narcotics trafficking involving Turkish intermediaries with ties to Israel at the same time Brewster Jennings and the CIA's Counter Proliferation Division was hot on the trail of nuclear proliferators tied to the Israeli government of Ariel Sharon and the A. Q. Khan network of Pakistan
----more at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cea-usa/message/8768

[stop the bleeding]

35. W. Madsen has been really quiet on this matter, one can only hope

he has been researching this whole rotten debacle

[AntiFascist]

87. If only Keith Olbermann would pick up this story!

It seems when there's too much "intelligence" the right-brain of the MSM just shuts off.

[stop the bleeding]

88. Olberman, Madsen, Bradblog, Rawstory

Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.




Like Pink FLoyd said:

is there anybody in there?

[Sparkman]

38. a little help please...explain jargon "CIA B/J" ?

[bj2110]

40. B/J = Brewster Jennings & Assoc. - the front for the CIA WMD ops that

Plame was involved with. This cover was also outed by Novak in one of his columns through a mention of Plame's association with the group.

[omega minimo]

148. Aw shit-- not the kind of BJ that's an impeachable offense?

:smoke: :kick:

[bj2110]

176. No, don't you know that a blow job is more important to national security

than the covert status of CIA agents and operations???? Duh...

[omega minimo]

178. IT'S NOT THE ACT-- IT'S THE INACTION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

We have some responsiblity for looking this administration in the face-- however much we know (or don't) about all the detail this thread presents.

Example: At a crucial point in this timeline, all the Bushco. figureheads, including Condi and Rummy and Powell, ALL hit the airwaves ALL on the same Sunday and ALL said the same thing using ALL the same words.

Now, who was reassured by the one-note onslaught and WHO SAW THIS AS A HUGE RED FLAG: THIS WAS TOTAL PROPAGANDA?

That was around the time George realized he needed a catapult.

We don't need :tinfoilhat: to read the writing on the wall.

DU and Dems would be instructed by figuring out why the public remains largely silent; why even in private conversation people don't come right out and say "WHAT BULLSHIT!" Right-- the Rong Wing own the media and create reality and broadcast it and people can't even THINK FOR THEMSELVES ANY MORE? People don't believe they have a voice or representation or a reason to vote (and expect it to count) so THEY JUST GIVE UP THEIR AMERICAN BIRTHRIGHT AND HAND IT OVER TO THUGS?

How many JQ Publics are up and saying "He's trying to put HIS OWN ATTORNEY on the Supreme Court while his administration is under investigation for treasonable actions. CAN YOU BELIEVE HE THINKS HE'LL GET AWAY WITH THAT?!!!!!"

When did American lose its

[Sparkman]

185. That old vet is one of many, who raise my spirits by their rebellious acts

referring to your "image" with the bulsht protectors on his ears I mean.

[bj2110]

39. Cross-posted link from another thread on "many dark actors email"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,10018...


snip:
The family - Kelly is survived by his wife Janice and three daughters - issued the statement hours after Superintendent David Purnell of Thames Valley police stood outside Wantage police station and said the scientist killed himself by cutting a wrist with a knife, possibly after taking powerful painkillers.

Kelly killed himself hours after sending an email to an unnamed journalist in which he told of 'many dark actors playing games'.

The words appeared to refer to officials at the Ministry of Defence and the UK intelligence agencies with whom he had sparred over interpretations of weapons reports, the New York Times reported.

[ikri]

42. Good analysis, recommended

By outing Plame they - whoever they turn out to be - managed to break up a world-wide WMD monitoring system. This would essentially allow them to make up any crap about countries that had, or were looking for, WMD.

One person who might disagree with the Oh my gawd, that small country of nomadic shepherds has nuclear weapons! Let's invade quick crowd would have been Dr Kelly who had shown a propensity to talk to the press when the government was ignoring him and/or operating on an agenda that was contrary to the facts.

Removing them both from the scene would pave the way for them to spout any lies/half-truths about WMD that they wanted to.

[understandinglife]

43. Have discussed the issue of Kelly possibly having uncovered ...

... an attempt to plant WMD with several folk. And, have exchanged some comments with "Peace Patriot," as well.

It's plausible for two obvious reasons:

1. the neoconsters in the Pentagon (along with Bolton at State) very much needed to crush the CIA (and those elements within the State department) who were not just obviously skeptical of all the claims being made by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz ...., but controlled much of the intelligence infrastructure devoted to WMD proliferation, if they wanted to dominate the info used to "justify" not only the war of aggression on Iraq, but also on Iran, North Korea, & Syria (and anyone else who defied their PNAC world vision);

2. it was the CIA, after what must have been a very intense summer of 2003, that forced the DoJ to begin an investigation -- when this story is finally told I suspect people will be amazed at what transpired to force that investigation to even start. I suspect the CIA (and elements within State and the NSA) knew they were being "set-up") and that is why the CIA fought to force the investigation.

I'd add that the contents of the classified portion of Judge Tatel's opinion and the emphasis he placed on the damage to our National Security being such as for him to not shield Cooper and Miller are still much under appreciated facts regarding just how serious the situation is.

Of course, had we had a real press and had we had an unrelenting opposition party in Congress during 2002 and up to now, Mr Fitzgerald would already have had a bunch of folk in front of a judge and jury. And, we might also have been able to force Bush to halt his un-Constitutional and otherwise illegal war of aggresson on Iraq.


Peace.

[stop the bleeding]

45. Also how many CIA people retired or left the agency during this time

I seem to remember a few, could they see the writing on the wall, and yes it would be nice to have reporters do their jobs, outside of Amy Goodman and K. Olberman I am not sure how many are left.

[understandinglife]

60. Not only did senior folk leave, including Tenet and Plame's boss, ...

... but, more importantly, we have ex-CIA offering blistering criticism of Bush and his neoconster gang for what they did to Valerie Plame and America. Just check noquarter.typepad.com (Larry Johnson's site), if you haven't already.

And, the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, wrote to Bush (and published their writings at the same time), more than once before March 19, 2003, making it clear that the WMD claims being used to attack Iraq were bogus.

It is not as if the American people, their 'representatives,' and the press have not had ample factual information available regarding the deception and illegal actions of Bush and the neoconsters.

It's that they just didn't give a shit until one day -- September 29, 2005 -- they realized that "America," and not just the citzens of NO and surrounding areas, were drowning in sewage while Bush and the neoconster gang partied and slept.


Peace.

[stop the bleeding]

61. Soooo we have all of these ex CIA people with possible info to share

hummmm, could one of them or several talked to Fitzgerald?

Lets not forget about Ari and Colin who have fallen off of the media map.

just brainstorming....

[understandinglife]

63. Have no way of knowing. But, it's not as if much of the information ...

... and commentary provided by Johnson, McGovern, and others isn't available via a google search or two.

When one reflects on Fitzgerald's prior cases one quickly realizes that he likely has extensive knowledge of the experts and types of information resources his investigation(s) required.


Peace.

[kath]

156. Good stuff, understandinglife.

(In your last paragraph, do you mean August 29, the day Katrina struck NO and the Gulf Coast?)

[Jose Diablo]

46. Think it through

If the whig had set-up an operation to plant WMD (say a nuke) to be 'found' in Iraq, where would that material have come from?

It's not like they could have got stuff from here in the USA or from any of our friends. All this stuff can be traced to its point of origin, no paperwork is needed. The weapons inspectors know what they are doing.

So, if an operation was tried to plant material, about the only place that material could have come from would have been the old USSR. B&J was watching that place like a hawk. So to make it work, The Plan, B&J had to be shut-down.

Makes sense to me. But I still wonder why the panic on The Plan being discovered. It's not like the media would have discussed it. Why panic? Thats what I don't understand. There is something deeper B&J was working on. Thats my take. Something big that would have really pissed the people off. What could it be?

But for now, these guys getting busted for The Plan is enough.

[stop the bleeding]

47. Keep digging and asking questions like this - n/t

[Seansky]

74. i agree with you as a posted earlies on this thread

something is really missing. None of the theories seem to actually arrive at the root or motive for the complexity of events we are seeing unfold.

I know it's like the chaos theory, but I think human dinamics are as simply explained as the PP's theory...Just a feeling that something more serious is involved or something as simple as pure revenge who knows. I do have a feeling that we might never really know like we did with Watergate.

[petgoat]

110. Something big that would have really pissed the people off.

Well, the drug trade maybe?

Is there actually a good-guy wing of the CIA that would object to that
source of income, or is everyone cynical enough not to care?

[leanin_green]

196. I think it's more than 'good-guys' and more about the balance of power.

The neo-cons and their ilk are a threat to the established status-quo of CIA operations. The recent "purging" of the CIA is merely IMO a tactic of those leaving. Fall back and regroup, a faint to the mid-section, tactical retreat. Now the real battle begins. They have their investigation and a good investigator with no political aspirations or allegiances. Time to feed the attack dog with info.

[GrantDem]

123. Think on another level...

WHO were they worried about pissing off?? Maybe just pissing off the American people wasn't there primary concern. They have done many things to piss us off and it didn't phase them before.

Just a thought.

[Jose Diablo]

130. Well Blair, not that he'd be pissed-off

but you know he can be voted out in a heartbeat. Just a vote of 'no confidence' will put him and the rest of the privateers out the door. I think the British would do that too, if it became common knowledge they planted WMD in Iraq.

And you know there some very dark secrets being held about BCCI and a host of other things by the government of Britain. Stuff going all the way back to Reagan. Even further back.

I wonder if B&J had the goods on money laundering and whatnot that Sybil Edmonds (is that her name) knows about?

I don't know, I can see how Blair would panic, but why would Bu$h? I don't think they give one hoot about what we think. They would be able to spin practically anything here with the media we have.

Maybe the idea of losing control of the information Britain is sitting on may tighten their sphincter enough to cause the panicked response indicated by the timeline and the need to out B&J. And with losing Britain they lose the control on some dead bodies they need to keep buried. Sop maybe keeping The Plan under wraps was more important, but not for the reason of lossing it here, in the states.

It's all so strange and hard to figure out. At this point its mostly speculation. I don't think a million searches on the net would find proof and the answers. Someone is gonna have to rat them out.

[leanin_green]

197. Don't forget that Blair recently received his payoff by the Carlyle group.

[electron_blue]

136. the Saudi Royal family?

maybe?

Seems to me they are missing from this intrigue so far. I can't believe they have nothing to do with this? Also, they could really terrify Bush/Cheney & pals.

[hootinholler]

48. Context of OP:

is here .

Took a while to find it.

-Hoot

[Arkansas Granny]

50. Great stuff. I've never seen it all brought together like this before.

I printed it out for more thorough reading later.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

55. How can we get this out to a wider audience for discussion?

It's not "news", just speculation at this point. But I think that many outside the DU world should be thinking about these possibilities. Daily Kos comes to mind but I don't know who gets to post there.

Anybody have any suggestions?

[stop the bleeding]

57. Hence is why I posted this, wasn't their an investigation into Kelly's

death and what became of that investigation?

Also as stated before we need to develop a time line with links to articles that clearly supports PP's theory.

So far I have been in a google spin trying to find articles related to US covert convoy troops being fired upon and can't find anything.

But we must keep exploring this and getting it to a wider forum is what is needed right now.

[KnaveRupe]

58. Maybe Raw Story or BradBlog has the resources to look into this?

Assuming that you want investigative follow-up to the speculation presented here, those are the two best on the net, IMHO. If anyone can find the documentation to turn this from idle speculation into actual "news" it'd be Raw Story or BradBlog.

[stop the bleeding]

59. or P. Fitzgerald - I am sure Bradblog and R.S. are monitoring this

and are probably ahead of us on this, but still we need to work on that time line in case they are busy with aspects of this story.

[petgoat]

109. Joseph Cannon at cannonfire.blogspot.com likes spook stuff n/t

[bj2110]

62. kick

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

66. What about the alleged "suicide" of John J. Kokal

who was a Research Chief in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence involved in the Iraq weapons of mass destruction controversy? He fell to his death from a building at the State Department on November 7, 2003. Strangely, his body was found with no shoes or coat. Would he have committed suicide with his wife waiting for him in her car downstairs in the parking lot? I'm not saying that he met with foul play. I don't know. What gets me is that I don't know. The fact that there was nearly a complete black-out of information on this man's death is what disturbs me. I never heard the results of a police investigation. I never saw any interviews of his wife, who also was involved in government. In fact, there was almost no mention of this incident anywhere in all of American media. What was he specifically working on? How could the violent and untimely death of a major intelligence officer working on Iraq's WMD in the U.S. State Department go virtually unnoticed in the American press?

[stop the bleeding]

67. This is what I am talking about people keep the wheels turning and

keep digging we may be able to put some of this together.

This needs to be itemized to what we know vs what we don't know, this has to be gathere from about 3-6 different threads going on right now on DU - my head is exploding from trying to chase the facts here and there.

Any suggestions on making these easier would be greatly appreciated.

[TNOE]

69. Wow

forgot about that - and remembered Cheney & Bush lawyering up after the investigation started

Read this post 1st thing this AM in LBN - and it was definitely not only an eye-opener - but a keeper as well!

[GliderGuider]

70. It looks like Kokal is the US counterpart to Kelly

The timeline is right (Nov. 7, 2003) for information about whetever-the-heck-this-is to have worked its way through the bueaucracy to Kokal's desk. He put 2 and 2 together, and said "4" to the wrong person. It's going to be tough to prove, though. It fits the pattern, but there aren't many facts available - no inquiry or autopsy that I've seen referenced, for example. Take a look at the rigorousIntuition blog for more:

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/suicide-dont-fall-for-it.html

[stop the bleeding]

71. Maybe we should start a thread on this that only can be used as

an itemized list. I am unsure if this is the way to go since one more thread may just make things messier. I want these bits of info to get summarized, itemized, listed in a concise manner so that people can chew on this.

any ideas on this??????

[NCPatriot]

140. More....

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=3029

The suspicious fatal fall from the Watergate complex of ex-CIA and NSC official Dr. Gus Weiss a few weeks after Kokal's similar death at the nearby State Department also merits investigation. Weiss, like Kokal, was adamantly opposed to the Iraq war and Weiss, uncharacteristically, went public with his protests.

[GliderGuider]

144. Something is in the air tonight - you beat me to Gus Weiss by 12 minutes

See post #141 below. This is very, very interesting stuff.

And this is scary shit. I read an exchange a year ago, but I don't recall the context - it may have been in relation to 9/11. Someone asked "But how do they get away with all this shit?" The other person relied. "Simple. They kill people."

On edit: spelling

[stop the bleeding]

149. Another good find and another possible piece(s) to the puzzle

[kath]

157. Thanks for bringing him up. I was thinking of him just now while reading

this thread, but couldn't remember his name. The circumstances of his death and the subsequent media blackout are indeed very, very strange.

[GliderGuider]

72. I don't really mean to muddy the waters, but this needs some thought

The other thing striking about Dr. David Kelly that muddies the waters just a bit is that he was a microbiologist whose specialty was bio-warfare. He had worked in the past with people who were developing genetically targeted bio weapons. Does the phrase "Microbiologist Murders" ring a bell with anyone? That means there is a chance he was part of whatever campaign has been waged against such people, claiming the lives of many, perhaps dozens of men with profiles like Kelly's. I still favour the notion that he was killed over the WMD plot, but the other angle deserves some examination.

Here is some information on Kelly's bio-war background:

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/MediumRare/32.htm

[leanin_green]

198. Found this in the DU archives

It's about the death of the microbiologists. For some reason I bookmarked it then. It seemed really important to me intuitively at the time. The archive number is 1137789.

[Seansky]

73. this is a great theory, nominated, but

something seems missing to make this theory work, like it doesn't go far back enough to justify what motivated the bushitest to want to proove CIA to be fools...Something key seems missing to me.

[stop the bleeding]

75. Bingo - keep digging this is bigger than the time frame indicated

I wouldn't be surprise at all if this has been on the books since the end of the 1st Gulf war.

Project for a New American Century
UK
M. Thatcher / Delay
Abramoff
Able Danger
people getting wacked inside and outside of the government

Stinks - Stinks - Stinks to high heaven

I would not put anything past these people that only want to take over the world for their own gain in the name of freedom and democracy

Sorry -went off of the deep end- but as stated before this thing is making my head hurt.

[electron_blue]

133. Yes! This is what I've said all along. It had to have been going on

since then. It is so obvious - why else would Cheney have plotted it out from the beginning - from before 9/11? Cheney is the link. He was secy of defense for Bush 1, right?

[GliderGuider]

77. I understand the desire to make a Grand Unified Theory, but

I also think it's easiest to eat an elephant one bite at a time. The farther we go back in time the murkier the waters get. My preference would be to concentrate on the pieces that are in plain sight, and pound on them until they give up their secrets. Once we know what the beast really is we will be able to figure out its parentage. Until we are 99% sure the immediate theory is solid, we run the risk that mistakes in our thinking will send us off in wrong directions as we venture back in time.

I think it's important to figure out where this all got started, but trying to solve the whole puzzle at once greatly increases the risk of failure.

[electron_blue]

134. I disagree - if you try to solve the whole puzzle, you will be more

likely to see the underlying structure. Go for it.

[GliderGuider]

137. Fair enough

There should be enough of us on the case to coverall the angles and backcheck any new theories. DU rocks at things like this!

[stop the bleeding]

138. Hence is why we're all pouring over this - n/t

[GliderGuider]

141. John Kokal has been mentioned above, but here's another name: Gus Weiss

Less than three weeks after Kokol's death, former CIA officer Gus Weiss died under similar circumstances:

Gus W. Weiss, 72, adviser to four presidents on top secret policy matters, died violently in Washington, DC, on November 25, 2003, but his death was not reported by The Washington Post until December 7, 2003, in the obitiuary section at the bottom of page C12. His home town newspaper, The Nashville Tennessean, was only a week late in reporting his death, but at that late date all they could say was, "The circumstances surrounding his death could not be confirmed last night."

Readers of The Tennessean http://www.tennessean.com/obits/archives/03/11/43368774.shtml?Element_ID=43368774 might have had their suspicions aroused not only by the delay in the reporting of this important man's death, but also by the very next sentence in the article: "Friends of Mr. Weiss expressed shock at his death."

But the article is not at all clear as to why that might have been the case. The man was already two years past our allotted three score years and ten, after all. Subsequent passages in the article only heighten the mystery:

"Driven by an insatiable intellectual curiosity and a desire to solve foreign policy problems, Mr. Weiss devoted his life to his career, friends recalled. He served as assistant to the secretary of defense for space policy and on the Pentagon Defense Science Board and the U.S. Intelligence Board under President Carter. Mr. Weiss was a foreign affairs officer and member of the National Security Council under Presidents Nixon, Ford and Reagan."

"Mr. Weiss...was involved in numerous intelligence projects, and friends said there were many aspects of his career he could never discuss with them."

'''He was wired into the intelligence community, and there were a lot of mystical secrets we weren't privy to,' said Harris Gilbert, a Nashville attorney who had been friends with Mr. Weiss since childhood. 'He was very interested in diplomatic strategy and was VERY, VERY OPPOSED TO THE IRAQ WAR. It was the first military action he ever opposed, but he believed we shouldn't go to war in the Middle East without knowing what we were getting into.''' (emphasis added)

http://www.dcdave.com/article4/031207.html

Others have already linked these deaths, though without the context we have been afforded in the last couple of days:

The U.S. intelligence community has suffered a spate of mysterious and surprising suicides since the onset of the Iraq war. State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research Iraq analyst John J. Kokal, former CIA officer Dr. Gus Weiss, and Washington's politically and diplomatically connected lobbyist Edward von Kloberg, who once counted Saddam Hussein among his clients, all jumped from the tops of buildings or out of window between November 2003 and May 2005. In addition, CIA officer Ben Miller was told to jump out of an open window at the National Security Council by Iran-contra felon Elliot Abrams, who is now an Assistant National Security Adviser.

NSA has apparently been no exception to the suicide epidemic. Before his departure from NSA to serve as Negroponte's deputy, Hayden sent a letter to all NSA employees in which he urged everyone to recognize "stress factors" at work. The letter also described the grief of losing a member of the NSA family from stress. NSA employees took the letter as an indication that there had been a recent suicide among the NSA ranks but no mention was made of the individual's identity.

http://cryptome.org/nsa-heroes.htm

Von Kloberg sounds to me like he's outside the stream of murders directly connected to the discovery of the attempted WMD planting, mostly because of the timeline - he died earlier this year as opposed to late 2003. But his connections to Iraq and the intel community, as well as his means of suicide (jump, jump, jump - don't any of these guys use a gun or pills?) make it a possible candidate.

It sounds to me like there was a cleanup crew working overtime. 21st century Plumbers of you will, desperately plugging leaks.

[bj2110]

82. Doesn't matter. Seems pretty simple to me:

PNAC wants Pax Americana
Controlling the Middle East is #1 Key
Iraq is obvious 1st Battleground
Public / Nation would not agree with invasion of sovereign Iraq
WHIG / PNAC / WH create WMD threat perception to justify invasion
No WMD's were found, so WMD's must be planted to support war lies
Miller becomes the mechanism to spread the lie to the public.
CIA/BJ foil WMD plant through routine duty of their responsibilities
Wilson goes public with Niger uranium falsehoods
Cover-up begins as Kelly is suicided & Plame / BJ are leaked to prevent any further action
WHIGs act fast and carelessly during cover-up
Fitz investigates
Indictments handed down, and only time will tell how accusing they will be.

[EuroObserver]

90. Don't forget that Mohamed ElBaradei,

... Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) (and this year's Nobel Peace Prize winner), declared the Niger uranium docs a fake in early March, at the UN in the security council sessions where Powell and others were desperately spinning.

Saw it with my own eyes from here in Barcelona (we were treated to full real-time coverage and I switched on the caja tonta for once (it was also on public radio, but I wanted to see those peoples' faces, that time), sitting there with Hans Blix...

See eg. AfricaOnline: http://www.afrol.com/News2003/index_afr007.htm

Seymour Hersh / New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1

[stop the bleeding]

92. Any articles from thre foreign press that could help fill in some of

these gaps during this time frame???

[EuroObserver]

102. I'll try to clear my agenda

and do some work on this.

I'm over 50, single, no kids...

[Seansky]

186. but what is it in for people llike Rove, Libby and the llike. that's what

I don't get it. Do they do this because money, power (and if so, what kind of power would they get) or just hatred?

[Senator]

118. Anti-CIA motive is no mystery

The neo-fascists in this country have been at war with the CIA Analysts for literally decades. It was Poppy himself who set up the "Team B" propagandists to "fix" intelligence around their treasonous policies.

It's just that honest, documented intelligence work tends to eat into the profits.

--

[Uncle Joe]

78. One question that I have is why would

the new U.N. Ambassador Bolton visit her in jail?

[GliderGuider]

79. That's a very good question in light of all this.

I think he was running messages to the asset from either WHIG or OSP.

[Senator]

121. Miller was/is their "asset"

GuiderGlider's identification of Miller as a neo-fascist (neocon) "asset" is confirmed by the "love note" from Libby. It reads: "come back to work - and to life."

If her allegiance was to her employer, it would be "go back" to work, not "come back."

---

[GliderGuider]

122. Huh. "_Come_ back to work" - I totally missed that!

She's one of them, all right.

[leanin_green]

200. I could say something nasty about her role here, but I won't.

[Binka]

209. If You Won't I Will

Judy was fucking Cheney, Scooter, or both.

She is a nasty cold hearted bitch. My money is on Cheney. She is his mistress. Wicked evil fucksticks!

[H2O Man]

80. When I read this post

on the other thread that it started out on, I immediately requested that the author post it as a new thread. It is a great example of what DU is at its best. More, this thread shows what a fantastic level of discussion can follow a great OP.

[Peace Patriot]

83. I have some urls on this theory, but no time to put them all together...

...and post them right now. There were two news reports, in the Tehran Times, and in a Pakistan paper, March 2003, one about an Iraq Governing Council member who saw covert weapons unloaded at Basra, and the other from a Def Dept debriefer who heard the story about the "friendly fire" attack on a covert WMD convoy. These may be what David Kelly got onto (he had friends in Iraq). The Hutton report is useful (go to BBC), although it was a terrible coverup and white wash. That's where I found the item on Blair being informed of the "uncomfortable things" that Kelly "could say" (not HAD said), on July 7 (right in the middle of the Plame outing).

Thanks for posting this, "stop the bleeding." I do think there was a general treasonous intention to destroy the CIA as a provider of honest information to the gov't. I thought that's what they were up to with Niger and Wilson--and the purposes behind it were Cheney arms dealing and also just lying with impunity, for whatever nasty thing they wanted to do. I only recently figured out the WMD-planting plot was the other end of the Niger plot. Get the CIA to commit that there were no nukes (or other WMDs), then "find" the phony, planted ones, to discredit the CIA (and "justify" the war). They set up the expection that WMDs would be found, and intended to trump all the criticism, and insider and outsider turmoil about the war, with the "find" of WMDs (with Miller getting that "scoop"). And they got stopped--and tried to cover it up and are still doing so. That's the long and short of the theory.

Although the Bush Cartel now has control of vote tabulation, they still have to "spin" the news. It's a big country and a big world, with lots of thinking people in it, some of them even in our war profiteering corporate news monopolies. They have to keep up the illusions, the propaganda, the spin, the lies. They are not in complete control of everything--and certainly not of American public opinion. (I think our countrymen are pretty smart, actually--they just haven't got hold of the Diebold/ES&S thing yet.)

I'll come back to this thread later, when I've got urls in hand. I don't have a lot of time or the investigative tools to really go after it. I'm hoping to inspire investigators. I strongly suspect that this is IT--the story behind Treasongate (not the whole Bush Cartel story, of course, but the semi-visible pimple of the larger disease). And I would very much like to see David Kelly vindicated. He turned against the war. I think this is why. And he may have helped saved us all, or at least gave us the opportunity to save ourselves, our country and our democracy. Can you imagine what it would be like, politically, if they had SUCCEEDED in their phony "find" of planted WMDs? (Plame may also be a hero in this regard--and people we know not of. She may be in far too much danger--and she has babies--to reveal what she knows, and may also be honoring her pledge as a covert agent, to take what she knows to her death.)

[stop the bleeding]

86. I will keep checking for those URL's and we can hope that maybe

more Muslim/Arab press was able to document events from this time and who knows maybe those articles hold some nice bits of the puzzle.

PS - I just passed this post on from Peace Patriot - he/she is the one who actually put this together - so any props go to him/her.

[bj2110]

85. kick

[Patsy Stone]

89. Excellent think piece.

Probably quite nearly spot on.

:thumbsup:

[LunaC]

94. Pakistan Daily Times - US tried to plant WMDs

December 8, 2003

According to a stunning report posted by a retired Navy Lt Commander and 28-year veteran of the Defense Department (DoD), the Bush administration’s assurance about finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was based on a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) plan to “plant” WMDs inside the country. Nelda Rogers, the Pentagon whistleblower, claims the plan failed when the secret mission was mistakenly taken out by “friendly fire”, the Environmentalists Against War report.

-snip-

The information that is being leaked out is information “obtained while she was in Germany heading up the debriefing of returning service personnel, involved in intelligence work in Iraq for the DoD and/or the CIA. “According to Ms Rogers, there was a covert military operation that took place both preceding and during the hostilities in Iraq,” reports Al Martin Raw.com, an online subscriber-based news/analysis service which provides “Political, Economic and Financial Intelligence”.

Al Martin is a retired Lt Commander (US Navy), the author of a memoir called “The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider,” and is considered one of America’s foremost experts on corporate and government fraud. Ms Rogers reports that this particular covert operation team was manned by former military personnel and “the unit was paid through the Department of Agriculture in order to hide it, which is also very commonplace”.

According to Al Martin Raw.com, “the Agriculture Department has often been used as a paymaster on behalf of the CIA, DIA, NSA and others”. According to the Al Martin Raw.com story, another aspect of Ms Rogers’ report concerns a covert operation which was to locate the assets of Saddam Hussein and his family, including cash, gold bullion, jewelry and assorted valuable antiquities. The problem became evident when “the operation in Iraq involved 100 people, all of whom apparently are now dead, having succumbed to so-called ‘friendly fire’. The scope of this operation included the penetration of the Central Bank of Iraq, other large commercial banks in Baghdad, the Iraqi National Museum and certain presidential palaces where monies and bullion were secreted.”


Cached by Google

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:CWVg3uFeSzkJ:www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp%3Fpage%3Dstory_12-8-2003_pg1_9+Pakistan+%22Daily+Times%22+%2Bplant+%2Bwmd&hl=en

[stop the bleeding]

97. Great find this is the stuff that we need to keep finding, also

are Ms Rodgers and the Lt. Col. still alive- seriously they haven't met with any untimely deaths?

We need more articles like this to back this kind of thing up.

I suspect they will be found in the foreign press


Great find.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

101. WMDs, Conspiracies, and International House of Pancakes.

I think most conspiracies theories are untenable and I don't know about the veracity of this story in the Pakistani press.

However, it is undeniable that if the Bush administration were capable of mounting a huge International House of Pancakes (LIHOP, MIHOP) conspiracy to commit 9-11, then they would have no trouble mounting and executing a faux WMD cache in Iraq, no trouble logistically or ethically. I think the fact that they have not is one of the biggest points against IHOP theories.

[John Q. Citizen]

103. I believe it is fine to look at theories about anything and to make

up your mind. From the theory that DeLay laundered money through the RNC to distribute to Texas state Republicans,to the theory that the Reagan White House sold missiles to Iran in return for Iran funding the Contras, to 9/11 to Oswald was the lone gun man to whatever.

But your theory that if 9/11 was bogus then planting WMDs in Iraq would be simple doesn't hold water. Not because either theory is necessarily correct or false, but because success at one endeavor doesn't automatically guarantee success at a later different endeavor.

Anymore than failure in one endeavor guarantees failure in a subsequent endeavor.

Your theory about theories isn't logical. You would do better to come up with an alternate theory to explain the known facts surrounding the Plame investigation than to link your disbelief of the OP's theory to 9/11.

[countryjake]

114. Methinks you seriesly misunderestimate...

the capabilities and intent of the machine. Perhaps you simply do not wish to hear that we might have been deceived. Whether this plot is about planting terror or simple fascist propaganda, deception has never been beneath the leaders of this nation.

Ex-CIA Professionals:
Weapons of Mass Distraction: Where? Find? Plant?
by David MacMichael and Ray McGovern

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0425-11.htm

[Bernardo de La Paz]

116. I agree, deception is even part of Bush regime. Just not on crazy scales.

[countryjake]

120. Even knowing "crazy" stuff was perpetrated before?

I'm one who chews my salt along with the 9/11 theories, this planting scheme, even election fraud, but I don't put anything past those intent on imperialist dreams and the PNAC is no theory; it's the plan. It's been a long-time building for them and this is their chance in history to make it happen, with little to no opposition. Look at how far they've gone with the Patriot Act...can eliminating habeas corpus be far behind?

Examining the possibilities, all of the capabilites, is a partial duty we should never give up and scoffing at others' theories can lead to idle acceptance of the truly unbelievable!

[Peace Patriot]

187. This article was published on April 25, 2003, before David Kelly began...

whistleblowing (late May 2003), before Wilson published his article (July 6), and before the Plame outing (July 14), Kelly's death (July 17), and the Brewster/Jennings outing (July 22). April 25 was a only month after the invasion. It is mainly about the Bush's junta expulsion of the UN weapons inspectors (by the US invasion) and failure to let them back in, afterwards, to conduct further inspections along with U.S. troops (and Judith Miller). The Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity at that time discussed the possibility of the Bushites planting WMDs, and generally judged it to be too risky (although they had no unanimity on this). The article goes on to cite other instances of evidence-manufacture in past wars (Gulf War I, Iran-Contra, Vietnam, the Central-South American drug wars and US. skulduggery).

Here's the paragraph relevant to this theory:

"The media have raised the possibility that the US might “plant” weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that this may be another reason to keep UN inspectors out. This is a charge of such seriousness that we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity have been conducting an informal colloquium on the issue. As one might expect, there is no unanimity among us on the likelihood of such planting, but most believe that Washington would consider it far too risky. Those holding this view add that recent polls suggest most Americans will not be very critical of the Bush administration even if no weapons of mass destruction are found." --David MacMichael and Ray McGovern

------

I wonder what they think of the possibility of a WMD-planting plot now? So much has gone down since that time (spring 2003).

I'm also intrigued by "the media have raised the possibility...". I wish they had cited what media they are talking about. I don't recall any such speculation in the war profiteering corporate news monopoly press, but maybe they mean alternative media.

The article also makes the poor political judgement that "recent polls suggest most Americans will not be very critical of the Bush administration even if no weapons of mass destruction are found."

They were wrong about that. That is the reason that Americans most often cite for their opposition to the war--no WMDs, no imminent threat. People remember that justification, and do not forgive the Bushites for lying. The polls they are citing (circa March 2003) are the only instance of any dip in American opposition to the Iraq war--in the few weeks of the invasion itself, when U.S. troops were at max risk. Before and after that, and to this day, the great majority of Americans opposed and oppose the Iraq war.

[Peace Patriot]

191. The article I'm referring to above is...

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0425-11.htm

[stop the bleeding]

202. I figure I reply to you directly, I have asked a feew different times

on this thread and I think my question has gotten lost in all of the posting.

Has there been any luck on finding payment records for
Department of Agriculture(DOA) and what exactly would we be looking for? How would we be able to tell when they are using the DOA as a cover? The reason I ask this because that news article made mention that covert weapon operation may have been channled or the expenses hidden in the USDA.

I am referring to the article mentioned further up in the thread in post#94, this article and my question are significant because it gets to the heart of your theory.

Here is a copy of the post::

LunaC (1000+ posts) Thu Oct-13-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
94. Pakistan Daily Times - US tried to plant WMDs
December 8, 2003

According to a stunning report posted by a retired Navy Lt Commander and 28-year veteran of the Defense Department (DoD), the Bush administration’s assurance about finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was based on a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) plan to “plant” WMDs inside the country. Nelda Rogers, the Pentagon whistleblower, claims the plan failed when the secret mission was mistakenly taken out by “friendly fire”, the Environmentalists Against War report.

-snip-

The information that is being leaked out is information “obtained while she was in Germany heading up the debriefing of returning service personnel, involved in intelligence work in Iraq for the DoD and/or the CIA. “According to Ms Rogers, there was a covert military operation that took place both preceding and during the hostilities in Iraq,” reports Al Martin Raw.com, an online subscriber-based news/analysis service which provides “Political, Economic and Financial Intelligence”.

Al Martin is a retired Lt Commander (US Navy), the author of a memoir called “The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider,” and is considered one of America’s foremost experts on corporate and government fraud. Ms Rogers reports that this particular covert operation team was manned by former military personnel and “the unit was paid through the Department of Agriculture in order to hide it, which is also very commonplace”.

According to Al Martin Raw.com, “the Agriculture Department has often been used as a paymaster on behalf of the CIA, DIA, NSA and others”. According to the Al Martin Raw.com story, another aspect of Ms Rogers’ report concerns a covert operation which was to locate the assets of Saddam Hussein and his family, including cash, gold bullion, jewelry and assorted valuable antiquities. The problem became evident when “the operation in Iraq involved 100 people, all of whom apparently are now dead, having succumbed to so-called ‘friendly fire’. The scope of this operation included the penetration of the Central Bank of Iraq, other large commercial banks in Baghdad, the Iraqi National Museum and certain presidential palaces where monies and bullion were secreted.”


Cached by Google

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:CWVg3uFeSzkJ:www.dai...



PNAC_101 - Rise of the Neocons - Designed with "Dropaganda" in mind!



Any thoughts??? Am I wasting peoples time?

[countryjake]

211. I agree some misjudged American opinion...

but at that time, we all sat with bated breath, wondering if the rest would then see thru the lies. Considering who these guys are (and their former employer), the next paragraph, about those in this group who apparently were not in "unanimity" and didn't have such a dim view of "most Americans", makes it fairly clear from the collective experiences of their profession that some wouldn't put it past either this administration or Blair's bunch to consider planting "something" to be a "necessary" action in the grand scheme. I, too, would love to hear what they're thinking now! It'd be interesting to see their take on your well-thought out analysis.

From the article:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0425-11.htm

~another snip~


"Others, taken aback by the in the in-your-face attitude with which Secretary of State Colin Powell reacted both to the exposure of the Niger forgery and to the requiem for the argument from aluminum rods, see in that attitude a sign that the Bush administration would not necessarily let the risk of disclosure deter it from planting weapons. They also point to the predicament facing the Blair government in Great Britain and other coalition partners, if no such weapons are found in Iraq. They note that the press in the UK has been more independent and vigilant than its US counterpart, and thus the British people are generally better informed and more skeptical of their government than US citizens tend to be.

While the odds of such planting seem less than even, speculation on the possibility drove us down memory lane. Likely or not in present circumstances, there is ample precedent for such covert action operations. VIPS member David MacMichael authored this short case-study paper to throw light on this little known subject. What leaps out of his review is a reminder that, were the Bush administration to decide in favor of a planting or similar operation, it would not have to start from scratch as far as experience is concerned. Moreover, many of the historical examples that follow bear an uncanny resemblance to factors and circumstances in play today."

[countryjake]

217. Also, they may have been referring to their own interviews...

and their statements that were made earlier that month of April 2003. Remember all the rapid fire articles that Miller was spewing in the Times during those weeks like the sensational garbage about the scientist out in the desert, making all those claims about the tubes...that surely must have been hard to swallow for fellows such as McGovern, listening to that type of reporting flying all over the airwaves. I'm pretty sure it made the news over here when McGovern talked to the French Press in early April, saying basically the same sort of stuff that's in that CommonDreams piece...his disgust was clear and he didn't hesitate to suggest planting wasn't beneath our government. Blix was making lots of noise then too, and I remember at least one op-ed piece writing about his anxiousness to get the inspectors back into Iraq and the author then expounded on why. Anyway, both MacMichael and McGovern were who I remember as being vocal with "planting" theories.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/042003A.shtml

http://www.warpeace.org/article.php?story=20040104203345581


(Edited to add links)

[stop the bleeding]

117. Has there been any luck on finding payment records for

Department of Agriculture(DOA) and what exactly would we be looking for? How would we be able to tell when they are using the DOA as a cover?

[stop the bleeding]

173. Has there been any luck on finding the Dept of Agriculture's

payment history, I know that I asked this yesterday, but I think that this is where the proof would be at, and it could be in black and white, and I know that based on his reporting in the past that Greg Palast from BBC can usually get his hands on stuff like this.

Any other ideas on how this can be achieved. This is the crutch of the whole planting WMD's theory and hence will fill one of the important holes in the theory.

Please reply

[stop the bleeding]

184. I'm asking and kicking this for the 3rd time in hopes that someone

will be able find any kind of information in regards to the Dept. of Agriculture providing the funding/cover up for the covert military action discussed above / posted by LunaC

[Peace Patriot]

208. stop the bleeding, see my post above--thoughts on Dept of Ag funding.

I can't do this research. Worth doing, I think, but would they use a US dept budget for such very high risk skullduggery, and, if they did, wouldn't it be nearly impossible to detect--especially without very detailed knowledge of Dept of Ag budgets?

[stop the bleeding]

225. I thought that as well, but did not know if there was an outside

chance, I know that Greg Palast from BBC seems to be able to get his hands on this type of info from time from what I have seen in his reporting in the past. It is too bad that he isn't monitoring this conversation.

He is probably busy as hell.

thanks for replying and it should be an interesting week and thanks for the theory.

[Cocoa]

104. why is the "planting" part necessary?

the prevailing, non-Madsen, theory is that this was all done to cover up the WMD deception, but it does not involve a plot to plant WMDs.

And yet the presentation of the Madsen theory, and the discussion about the theory, seems to assume that the planting plot makes Plamegate explainable in a way that it wouldn't be without that plot.

So I wonder, what purpose does the Madsen theory serve?

[John Q. Citizen]

106. If it is true and it is shown that the administration attempted to

plant WMD's then it is also true that they knew full well there were none before going to war.

Under the current (non plant scenario,) they are attempting to silence a critic of the war who under cut their erronious assumption that there were WMD.

Under the planted weapons theory we have proof they already knew there was no WMD.

[Cocoa]

111. yes, it would of course much more damaging to the crooks

but how does the theory help explain Plamegate?

the structure of the argument in the OP was to ask a number of questions, then suggesting that the answer lies in the "planted WMD" theory.

In fact, the non-Madsen theory answers those questions just as well, and has the benefit of having a lot of evidence behind it.

[John Q. Citizen]

113. The non-plant theory doesn't explain why

Miller stayed in jail until she got a pass on discussing stories prior to her then first known conversation with Libby. It also doesn't explain why there were conversations about Wilson prior to his op-ed.

It also doesn't explain why Cheney would send Wilson (or anyone) to Niger to check out what they already knew were bogus allegations based on forged documents.

ANd then, why include the bogus allegations in the SOTU address when you know they are bogus?

These questions/discrepancies aren't covered by the "revenge" theory.

The 'plant' theory explains these events and also explains why Miller was so mum and un-forth-coming on her stories about the English suicide of the arms expert.

Is the 'plant' theory correct? I don't know, but it certainly incorporates the facts and places them in an understandable and integrated frame work.

[Peace Patriot]

193. In working on this theory, I was also struck particularly by the risks...

...that the Bushites took, especially in that July 7-14 period, so many top Bushites involved, so much outside contact (at least six journalist witnesses to treason). Yes, they wanted to "get" the CIA. Yes, they undoubtedly hated Wilson. But why risk the entire regime by such precipitous action? It may not explain all of the Treasongate, but it focuses on the trigger for the Plame outing--what caused them to make so many mistakes--and, by trying to see the arc of the plot, from the wild goose chase to Niger and the Niger forgeries (and the SOTU speech plant), to the Wilson article, to a possible conclusion, discrediting of the CIA when the phantom weapons were "found," you begin to see why they may have done certain things, and how a Blair report on the interrogation of Kelly might fit in.

We shouldn't assume that THEY (the Bush Cartel) always has control of all the pieces of whatever they're doing and plotting, nor of their own emotions. Think of it from THEIR point of view. Say, Blair called them and told them Kelly knew (of the weapons planting plot and its foiling). Who else knows? How far has this gone? How much control do the Brits have over Kelly? WHO foiled their plot? And what OTHER devious, war profiteering crap might the revelation of this plot lead to? What if Blair was toppled? And on and on. They'd just pulled off a huge and awful coup--the invasion of Iraq--and had many devious plans for the occupation. All of that already was endangered by the failure to find WMDs. They were using pure bludgeon power--with virtually the entire world, including the majorities in both home countries, against their war. And here they find out that an insider (and a whistleblower) knows one of their worst secrets.

A WMD planting scheme that was foiled, as I see it, includes the long term plot to "get" the CIA--to shut it down, especially its WMD information gathering capability (for various reasons including Cheney arms dealings, and future wars they wanted to instigate)--AND why they foolishly outed Plame in a goddamned newspaper, with tracks back to top Bushites, Cheney and the WHIGs, and tracks all over DC in major news organizations. The Bush Cartel is capable of hiding its tracks. They've been suspected of it in many other plots. Why did they not do it this time?

Because it was urgent. It was big. And they were panicked.

Explain why they didn't cover their tracks better. That is the conundrum. And that is why this theory is better than the "revenge" theory.

There ARE arguments against the WMD-planting plot, as the plot behind the plot of Treasongate--and more in favor of the "revenge" motivation. For instance, one reason they may not have covered their tracks was to specifically send an ice dagger into the hearts of all who opposed them, especially in U.S. and other intelligence communities, and also the diplomatic services (U.S. and other), and the U.S. military. This is something that Wilson and others have dwelt upon. And Wilson himself has said nothing at all about WMD planting or David Kelly--a point against the WMD planting theory (although Wilson may be under constraints--for instance, fear for his wife's safety).

So, cold calculation--rather than panic--might explain their spreading of this treason all over DC; and hubris might explain why they were so careless of their own hides.

It doesn't satisfy ME, partly because of the coincidence of the Plame and Kelly dates. And, as to their precipitous, risky actions--why the rush? They could continue to attack and purge the CIA, and/or do any number of things to squash dissent, inside and outside, over a period of time, where it would look like normal politics (more or less), and do many ice pick in the skull type of black ops to punish specific people and "send messages." What was the hurry in the week of July 7-14, 2003? (And they extended the "hunt" for WMDs for months--on into the next year--spinning, spinning, spinning the "news," while their buds cleaned out the U.S. taxpayers in Iraq. Why bother about an op-ed or two, or a few BBC reports--to that extent, to the extent of all of them being put at risk of treason charges?)

Whatever the truth is, I think one thing is fairly certain: simple revenge for a dissenting article, and general suppression of dissent, does not seem sufficient to explain the draconian action that was taken, outing and disabling the entire CIA WMD monitoring project, 20 years in the making, putting its coverts at great risk of death. The SECOND Plame outing--of Brewster/Jennings, on July 22--may be more important than the first, in understanding what was really going on. (The first can be explained as "punishment" of Wilson? What of the second?)

[leanin_green]

201. The Plant Theory also fits in with the standard MO of what this group

does to anyone who get's in their way. Simple revenge also fits, to a point. But it doesn't explain the mysterious deaths and the deeper layers of intrigue that are a part of this story. If it was just about simple political revenge, why is the investigation taking so long?

[EuroObserver]

112. I haven't seen that this theory is Madsen's

so far. Links please?

<edit>: Madsen's theory seems to be about WMD proliferation.

[Pooka Fey]

143. replied to wrong post. oops.

[Catherine Vincent]

107. Good stuff up in here.

Bookmarking.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

115. thaks for posting this, this is very interesing

[GrantDem]

119. I always wondered

why the shrub administration, knowing there were no WMDs, would go into Iraq knowing they would find none. Why throw themselves into such a blatant lie and embarrassment.

The answer... They did plan on "finding" the WMDs.

[electron_blue]

135. Yes, but why did they screw it up?

Are they just idiots? Or did someone even higher up screw it up for them? Did they really think they'd find WMD's?

I am convinced that someone very high up knew there were no WMD's, but I'm starting to doubt that Bush knew that. Bush is just too much out of it. He strikes me as someone who is just plain stupid and power hungry. But not capable of a complicated labyrinth of lies. He'd have to be far more "in the know" than he is. I can see that he took someone's word for it (Cheney? someone else?) and was set up to take the fall.

[GrantDem]

142. I agree

I have always believed that bush is just a figurehead of a shadow government. Sort of a "Manchurian Candidate" sort of guy. The repukes needed someone with "electability" to help them get into a position to further their PNAC agenda.

[Senator]

124. My only objection is...

...to the characterization of Rove as a "master of PR." And the more general euphemedia meme of his "genius" status.

Just another bit of neofascist propaganda we need to stop internalizing on the left.

It takes no great intellect to lie and cheat, only the willingness to do so. In fact, it is an admission that one is intellectually incapable of winning honestly, playing by the rules.

A PR genius works within the confines of the truth and an election genius within the confines of election laws. Rove does neither.

His methods are thuggery. Just a non-physical form of violence.

His is not a great mind, merely a corrupt one.

--

[Catherine Vincent]

132. I agree with you 100% about Rove.

He is nothing but a thug!

[willing dwarf]

155. Very good point

it takes no great intellect to lie and cheat, only the willingness to do so. I hadn't thought of that before. Rove's "genius" is really more just a willingness to go a step further down the road of the audacious liar. No magic there!

[Peace Patriot]

179. I was being sarcastic, Senator (about Rove "boy genius"). I agree that...

...it doesn't take a lot of talent to write press releases about pre-ordained events (like Bush "winning" the 2004 election--he probably wrote those back in 2002 when HAVA was passed and Congress was getting anthraxed), nor does it take any "genius" to manipulate the newsstream when the news monopolies leave you free to lie through your teeth, and you have zero conscience about doing so, and you don't even care if tens of thousands of people die because of your lies. Zero conscience. Powerful actors behind you manufacturing outcomes. Lapdog press. Anybody could write the press releases.

Agreed. Agreed. Rove is way overrated.

But I was still puzzled by the confusion and ineptness of the Rovian "revenge" story. It added to my feeling of hasty, cobbled together cover stories, and also my feeling that their contacting at least SIX reporters was overkill to a agree indicating panic ("get her outed NOW!"). I think Cheney/Libby may have intended to use Rove's reputation for ruthlessness and revenge in their Niger/Wilson plot to destroy the CIA (the part tying Wilson to the CIA through Plame), but I DON'T think they intended to do it in this precipitous fashion, putting so many top Bushites at risk of treason charges. That's where David Kelly comes in--in this theory--if he knew what I think he knew: his death happening four days after Plame was outed (following Blair being informed that Kelly knew something more), and, four days after Kelly's death (computers searched), BJ being additionally outed. It provides a logical reason--and a context--for the WAY they outed Plame and BJ (in haste, not carefully, not covering their asses very well, creating six journalist witnesses to treason in a scattershot approach to find a patsy (Novak), etc.).

There are other possible explanations for the way they outed Plame/BJ (hubris being one), but the DATES are so coincidental, they are hard to ignore.

May 22,2003: Kelly starts whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC about the "sexed up" intel; the Blairites go nuts trying to out him; somebody outs him to his bosses by late June (Miller?), and he is interrogated.

July 7, 2003: Blair is informed that Kelly "COULD say some uncomfortable things" (not had said). (Hutton report.)

July 14, 2003: Plame outed (by Novak).

July 18, 2003: Kelly found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances; his office and computers searched.

July 22, 2003: BJ outed (by Novak).

[bj2110]

180. And throw in the connections between Miller & Kelly. It gets even more

juciy then. Miller's the key here, and Fitz knows it... :)

[stop the bleeding]

182. Also consider how many people quit the CIA that were forced out or

sick of what was going on.

I have always thoought that it would be great if one of these people testified and know one knew ecept for for Fitz and GJ.

[stop the bleeding]

181. Peace Patriot maybe you can help with this since your the wheels

behind this

I've been trying to track down expenditure records for the Dept of Agriculture in relation to an article that was found yesterday on this thread that specified that the funding for the foiled convoy that you proposed was hidden with in the Dept of Agriculture. So far know one has responded to my quesion and have posted it twice on #'s 117 and 173 in response to #94 any ideas. I think that if you can find this in black and white then this might be useful???

[Peace Patriot]

207. stop the bleeding, I'm not sure how to research that (payment thru

Dept. of Ag), and it would be best if someone who knew what they were doing did it. I'm sure I'd waste a lot of time. I'm hoping to inspire people to do this kind of research.

One thought I had about the Nelda Rogers statement that it was funded thru the Dept. of Ag is that I doubt if there are traceable funds behind such a plot. That is one of my skepticism items re: the Nelda Rogers reports. Think of the billions in cash that was reportedly pouring out the backs of trucks in Iraq, during the early looting period; the billions the Bushites have handed over to corporations like CACI and Titan, the billions in Cheney weapons dealing, the secret billions poured into covert ops around the world, and the billions controlled by the Bush Cartel itself. There are just so many places they have billions stashed, why run it (in any visible way) through a US department with theoretical scrutiny by Congress?

Nelda Rogers said they did (and that the Dept of Ag is often used to cleanse covert op funds); she also said it (the attempted WMD planting) was done by ex-military.

But if it was through the Dept of Ag, how would you know what you're looking at, looking at their budget figures--especially if this venue was oft used for covert ops and the path was therefore smooth to do so again?

I'm not against such research, I just don't have the first clue about Dept of Ag budgets.

There also has so far been no corroboration of who Nelda Rogers is, or additional details of her story. There is only one source for that particular allegation (Dept. of Ag funding), and while the source sounds plausible, we just don't know. There is a completely different source on the WMDs boxed as Red Cross shipments in Basra. But neither of these sources may have the story quite right.

---------

Several people have raised the objection that WMDs that the Bushites might have tried to plant in Iraq would be too traceable to their origins. I am no WMD expert. Bear that in mind, but, 1) what makes us think that this "evidence" would ever have gotten into the hands of objective experts?, and 2) if it had been, what makes us think that a covert WMD team couldn't obtain or manufacture WMD evidence with the proper signatures (to make it seem Iraqi, or from a likely source that Iraq might have had access to)?

As to 1), they cast the UN inspectors out of Iraq (by the invasion), and took over WMD hunting; 2) they were into cooking intel, and would likely have cooked up a fine report on it all; 3) they are extremely secretive, using Nat'l Security to cover their tracks in all sorts of ways.

For instance, have you ever seen any evidence that OBL did 9/11? The Taliban asked for such evidence, if you'll recall, and the Bushites scoffed at them. I think there's a tape with OBL saying some things informally--like, they didn't expect the towers to crumble like that. Do you trust that as proof that it was his plot?

They are very chary with "evidence." And they most likely would have been with any WMD planted evidence in Iraq. Objective experts would likely have never gotten close to it, and by the time they did, the provenance would likely have been so spoiled that nothing could be said for sure. And/or, they would have chosen the type of evidence that was most plausible and least likely to be traceable. (In fact, what if it was Niger yellowcake, obtained covertly, by big payoffs, say? The arc of the plot would then be complete--CIA/Wilson made to look like fools. The Niger forgeries lost in the news fog; or written off as somebody's zealousness. But HERE IS THE PROOF, the "smoking gun," "found" by Judith Miller who is sworn to never tell what she knows about how it got there (top secret security clearance; embed contract signed by D. Rumsfeld).

Or say WMDs or components "found" (planted) in) Iraq had origins in Pakistan, or Iran, or Russia, or any number of arms bazaars. Not Iraq's development program, but they nevertheless would have been accused of covertly purchasing, possessing and intending to use such weapons, if any components had been found in Iraq, of whatever origin.

In fact, I suspect that the WMD-planting thing may not be over. I was thinking about that cryptography about "the aspens turning" in Libby's letter to Miller. (He wants her to "come back to work" and specifically mentions potential news stories on Iran's nuke program and biological threats). (What are the "aspens" cooking up now--an excuse to invade Iran or Syria, with maybe tracks back into Iraq to justify the Iraq war in retrospect?) (God knows.)

Given the HIGH MOTIVATION of the Bushites/Blairites to find WMDs in Iraq--and the way they set everything up for that to happen--we should not too easily dismiss their power to overcome the difficulties of WMD origins, and their power to almost get away with it. They got away with the war itself, didn't they--with virtually the entire world community against them? And they've gotten away with two terms of massive looting of the U.S. gov't and the American people. There is also hubris (on the side of such a plot, whatever the difficulties). They THOUGHT they could get away with it.

[Nothing Without Hope]

125. I'm glad you posted this - I read it in the original thread and was very

struck by the layout of the pieces. I have NEVER believed that all this panicked traitorous activity was JUST to smear Joseph Wilson, it was such ridiculous, dangerous overkill!

This makes sense. Thank god Fitz is the one on charge here. Let's hope much more of the truth is found.

[bonito]

128. kick

[mike_c]

131. I'm going to be watching this with a great deal of interest....

Judy Miller will be the weak link, I think, unless she's far more professional a spook than she appears. If she was actually complicit in a WMD plan, which certainly seems plausible, as opposed to simply being chosen as the "finder" to lend credibility to the find, but without actual knowledge of the plot. My tinfoil hat is getting a bit tight....

[welshTerrier2]

139. some excellent analysis at these links ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sm4csi/nwo/MindControl/U.S.Disinformation.Agency.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MOO305A.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1
http://www.apfn.org/LEAK-GATE/CIA_firm.htm

[EuroObserver]

166. That Guardian special report is very interesting

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

Illustrates the quality of reasearch/information published in some European 'mainstream' press around the time.

And - look at the date. The day Dr. Kelly disappeared and the day before the body was found. I wonder if he would have read it?

(BTW - I find no reference to Julian Borger or any other Guardian reporter in the list of Dr. Kelly's media contacts, which he had been ordered by British Security to produce and which he emailed that morning of the 17th July - http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/com/com_4_0080to0082.pdf )

<snip>

The spies who pushed for war

Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force

Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

As the CIA director, George Tenet, arrived at the Senate yesterday to give secret testimony on the Niger uranium affair, it was becoming increasingly clear in Washington that the scandal was only a small, well-documented symptom of a complete breakdown in US intelligence that helped steer America into war.

<snip>

The big question looming over Congress as Mr Tenet walked into his closed-door session yesterday was whether this shadow intelligence operation would survive national scrutiny and who would pay the price for allowing it to help steer the country into war.

</snip>

[Pooka Fey]

145. KICK

:kick:

[goforit]

146. Where is Peace Patriot?.....

Love to hear more of his/her discussion

[stop the bleeding]

150. Hopefully pouring over all of the articles and pieces that people are

digging up.

[jmowreader]

151. Don't be fooled: the BFEE could have planted WMD without getting caught

This because of the unique nature of Saddam's WMD program: we sold it to him in the first place.

Who's got that picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands?

[Mr_Spock]

154. Interesting food for thought there...

I'll have to think about that theory for a bit.

[Wordie]

160. Recommended (on principle). Could OP please add link to original thread?

I read it before, but now can't locate it and I'm interested in the context. And thanks, OP, for giving this posting the attention it deserved.

[Hissyspit]

161. Bush on WMDs: "We found them!" Jumping the gun on the script?

He seems to do that from time to time.

[Hissyspit]

162. THE ONE THING that my brother and I predicted in the past 4 years or so

that didn't happen - the planting of WMDs. Why didn't it? Not because these people have scruples, that's for sure.

[eridani]

163. Possibly, but Scott Ritter discounted this scenario

He said that with chem and bio weapons, it would be very easy to test for how old they were, and that planted weapons could be easily outed as such.

Another possibility is that Plame's group was onto some gory details about Khan's nuke supermarket in Pakistan, and that Cheney did not want his own ties to it exposed.

Nonetheless, this is an interesting conjecture. Why not send it snail mail to Fitzgerald?

[patricia92243]

164. Oil. n/t

[snot]

165. Another branch--Pls add research, analysis if you can:

I hope this isn't too far off the topic of the original thread, but I think it may be related. Pls look at the DU posts quoted below (edited for brevity)--the first of which comes from this thread, pointing out that Dr. David Kelly was a microbiologist whose specialty was bio-warfare.

(B.t.w., I've been puzzled lately by persistent, conflicting "expert" assessments of the danger posed by avian flu. One set of experts scoffs that there's no immediate threat, it might take decades or more for a disease communicable among humans to evolve, you're more likely to be hit by a meteor than die of avian flu. The other set makes it sound like a deadly new plague is imminent. Reminds me of the persistent, conflicting reports re- violence in N.O.)

Here are the posts:

From http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5049555#5052232 :
72. I don't really mean to muddy the waters, but this needs some thought
The other thing striking about Dr. David Kelly . . . is that he was a microbiologist whose specialty was bio-warfare. He had worked in the past with people who were developing genetically targeted bio weapons. Does the phrase "Microbiologist Murders" ring a bell with anyone? That means there is a chance he was part of whatever campaign has been waged against such people, claiming the lives of many, perhaps dozens of men with profiles like Kelly's. I still favour the notion that he was killed over the WMD plot, but the other angle deserves some examination.
Here is some information on Kelly's bio-war background: http://www.worldnewsstand.net/MediumRare/32.htm

From http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5049914#5050218 :
15. This comes from his October 4 press conference
BUSH: . . . . I am concerned about avian flu. I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world. . . .
I have thought through the scenarios of what an avian flu outbreak could mean. I tried to get a better handle on what the decision-making process would be by reading Mr. Barry's book on the influenza outbreak in 1918. I would recommend it.
. . . . If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country? And how do you, then, enforce a quarantine?
It's one thing to shut down airplanes. It's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu.
. . . . And who best to be able to effect a quarantine?
One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move. So that's why I put it on the table. . . .
I noticed the other day, evidently, some governors didn't like it. I understand that. I was the commander in chief of the National Guard and proudly so. And, frankly, I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard.
But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak.

From http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5049914#5050131 :11. Troop movements aided greatly in 1918-1919...
In incubating & spreading the Influenza throughout the world.

From http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5049914#5050766 :
41. "relative youth and fitness"
Actually, one of the odd things about the 1918 pandemic was that a lot of the victims were healthy adults in their 20's and 30's and not just the servicemen, either. Apparently, those who had the best immune systems died because their immune systems overreacted to the virus and their bodies sort of won the battle but lost the war. If the current avian flu resembles the 1918 flu in that respect, the last people you want to send out to provide aid or policing are the military because they're going to drop like flies.

[Tight_rope]

172. Kick!

[bj2110]

177. The most damning logic imo is this (and it supports this theory):

1) The administration knew that the WMD intel wasn't fully accurate. (Info taken out of Fall '04 speech)

2) Yet, somehow, they appeared completely convinced they would find WMD evidence. Quotes like "We know they've got them", "We know where they are", and "We found them" all show a complete lack of acknowledgement of the known doubts of the intel.

Yes, the WH has a grand history of lies. But, our country is not yet to the point where this is tolerated. Some "proof" of the lie must be uncovered or spun the right way in order for it to be accepted. Obviously, the best follow-up to a national lie such as this is to make sure it could be backed up, at all costs. If they knew the WMD intel was doubtful, the only reason they could be so confident of evidence being found was that they would have a hand in creating it.

Now, this is speculation, but it makes complete sense:
They tried to create the WMD evidence, but they failed. They had to fall back on the spin angle, and re-adjust their "true" motives for war, i.e. a free and democratic Iraq, Iraq-Al Qaeda connection, "fight 'em there, so we don't have to fight 'em here", etc....

[callady]

183. kick

[DearAbby]

188. Kick and nominated...Explains why focus on Miller as well

Miller who never wrote one word about Plame was the only reporter that was jailed. She was embedded in Iraq in "search" of the WMDs. To be Joanny on the spot.

[Peace Patriot]

210. I think you've got it, bj2110, as to the relationship between a possible

plot to plant the weapons and the spin angle. They seemed so sure in public that WMDs would be found. Now we know it was all cooked intel, lies and exaggerations, and they knew it. Hubris and group delusions might have been at work with some, but I don't think it was with the main players. They knew it was all lies. So where did that confidence come from? Was it just short-term swagger, to get the looting machine in place, and they didn't really care after that, what people thought? Or was it based on their confidence in the weapons-planting plot? It continued for some time (the insistence that WMDs WOULD BE found)--possibly a period where the plot might still have been viable (maybe there were several efforts)--then they abruptly started talking about other justifications (and started using phrases like "WMD program related activities").

I keep reminding everyone to not underestimate their viciousness (and their greed--I don't think the main players have any ideology other than looting) (--not after Katrina)--and the BJ/Plame outings still could just have been aimed at smashing the CIA directly, and silencing all dissent, internal and external. That IS an M.O. of theirs.

But I find the Niger business (and a number of other things) very difficult to explain with smashing dissent as their only motive. They didn't NEED the justification to be nukes (there are other types of WMDs, for which the evidence was more spinnable at the time). They didn't NEED to have Bush caught in an easily disprovable allegation in his SOTU speech. Why do all that--exposing Bush to ridicule and loss of credibility (especially internationally)? It feels like a setup. Insist on this allegation--against all reason--and then produce the weapons to "prove" it.

And I don't mind people taking this theory completely apart. It is essential, actually, that we do. I've been trying to put all my notes (and urls) together, and have been reminded of my own hesitations (for instance, that Wilson has said nothing along these lines, that there are different versions of the Condi Rice story--one pointing more to the intermediaries as the ones who told Wilson to publish his concerns--and that David Kelly partially recanted on the "sexed up" intel, and that I'd sort of built him up in my mind as an antiwar hero when he several times stated (albeit under duress) that he essentially supported the gov't and the war).

The theory holds up quite well, but there is scant hard evidence for it--and thus, a lot of it involves interpreting what people have said and done. (Why so elaborately build up expectations for a WMD find, when you know the WMDs are not there? Etc.) I can only hope that investigators will get to work and start finding the evidence, or that Fitzgerald has/will dig out what Treasongate was the cover up for (if it's more than seems apparent, Cheney/WHIG trying to frighten and smash all dissenters into silence).

[bj2110]

212. Would be interesting to see if there was a distinct point in time where

the WH & others stopped pointing to WMD's so vociferously as they had originally. When did they chnage their tone from "They have 'em & we have to fight" to "They could have 'em & we have to be on the offensive"?

This administration may be cocky, but they sure aren't dull. Every mention of WMD's was sure to be a result of calculated reasoning, and how the public message changes would be key, imo, and a sign of events known and unknown.

Wilson may have very little do with all of this, and really may not be privvy to the actual facts. One possible explanation for the risky and rushed job of media contact during July is that attacking Wilson gave them a viable avenue to undermine Plame/BJ/CIA. They had to take advantage of Wilson's timing. Could Miller have had a hand in Wilson going public, how was Wilson really convinced to write the piece, was it his own doing? Using Wilson op-ed piece as a basis for a revenge attack against his wife gives a public face to what was really going on, i.e. an attack on the covert WMD ops around the world, perhaps the same ops that foiled the WMD plant. The Brewester Jennings disclosure a couple of weeks later puts the nail in the coffin, and is mentioned only as an afterthought in most Plame discussions.

[stop the bleeding]

226. But the theory is still holding N/T

[tiptoe]

189. kick

[cantstandbush]

194. How about this: US planted WMDs but was double-crossed by Arab

double agents who either sold or distributed the WMDs for later use. That's why the US is in such a panic right now to keep blowing up the ME until they have blown up the stockpile of WMDs that belonged to the US but cannot be found?

[Jacobin]

199. Great Timeline

Thanks.

Bookmarking for a more detailed read. I'm thinking of finding links to all of the factual statements to include in this for the Doubting Thomases.

This would make an amazing NYT piece (as if they would run it,heh heh heh).

Congratulations on putting together the threads and some very interesting speculation

[Birthmark]

203. Interesting, but...

...why is your explanation superior to the one in which they are simply reacting to Wilson's non-cooperation?

[bj2110]

213. Why the risky and immediate response if it was just a revenge ploy

against a dissenter? A half a dozen media outlets were contacted, and contacted in such an easy to trace way. Why the urgent Air Force One trip with so many top admin people? Why the outing of Brewster Jennings, who had nothing to do with Wilson, especially as his wife had already been compromised?

Wilson's a decoy here, imo. If it was purely to stifle uncooperative opinion, it would have been done in a more calculated manner with less risk and spread out oover a longer period of time. Plus, the Kelly-Miller connections and the timing of Kelly's death are a little too much of a coincidence for me.

[Birthmark]

214. Ever watch "Cops?"

Criminals do stupid things. I think that's what makes them choose that life. :)

[bj2110]

218. Pretty naive to think Cheney/Rove/Libby et al are your everyday,

stupud criminals, don't you think? Shit, they successfully stole two presidential elections, didn't they??

[Birthmark]

220. I've forgotten who said it, but...

...I'll quote it anyway.

"Against stupidity, the gods themselves, contend in vain."

And there ain't a single god among that crew. No amount of theft translates to "smart", imo. A gifted thief is still a thief. The only reason to be a thief is because one lacks the imagination necessary to get what one wants through honest means.

[GliderGuider]

215. Because "revenge" doesn't explain what happened to Dr. David Kelly

And this theory does. Along with John J. Kokal. This one connects way more dots than "revenge" does.

[Birthmark]

221. Meaning no disrespect, but...

...that theory doesn't explain the deficit, either. Does that mean that a theory that *could* explain Plame, Kelly, and the deficit would be superior?

I'm a big believe in simplicity. (There's probably one or more reasons for that!)

[GliderGuider]

222. If the deficit was a WMD expert and friends with Judith Miller...

Then it would have to be considered a player in this little drama as well. While I'm a big believer in the value of Occam's Razor, I'm an even bigger believer in Einstein's dictum: "Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." In this case, the dictum implies that the simplest explanation that fits the most interconnected facts is more likely to be right than a simpler one that excludes some of them. Simpler expanations are to be preferred over more complex ones only as long as they cover the same data set.

In this case we have a data point (Kelly) with three very obvious connections to the Plame case (public opposition to the war, WMD expertise and Judith Miller) and suspicious circumstances that imply that the suicide was not as represented, that cannot be addressed by the revenge theory. It may be that it's unrelated to the Plame affair in any way, but that then requires two theories instead of just one...

[Marie26]

227. Agree - Poetry break

It's beyond weird how these names keep popping up again & again in seemingly unrelated areas. There's got to be some explanation or connection, but I think it's one we're not able to see - we can only glimpse random bits & parts. It reminds me of that parable about the elephant. 6 blind men feel only one part of the elephant, and then argue about what the elephant was really like. That's sort of what this feels like. We can grasp blindly for an explanation, but everyone's only feeling one part of the neocon elephant. Maybe not even Fitzgerald can see the whole thing.

Poem for English lits: http://www.wordfocus.com/word-act-blindmen.html
"The Blind Men and the Elephant"

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”
....
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

[mmonk]

204. "somewhere around Tikrit"

[Nothing Without Hope]

205. **Related post: Miller was grated a DoD security clearance while embedded

with the WMD search team in 2003

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5076864
Thread title: 'Hidden Scandal' in Miller Story, Charges Former CBS Newsman

partial excerpt:

There is one enormous journalism scandal hidden in Judith Miller's Oct. 16th first person article about the (perhaps lesser) CIA leak scandal. And that is Ms. Miller's revelation that she was granted a DoD security clearance while embedded with the WMD search team in Iraq in 2003.

This is as close as one can get to government licensing of journalists and the New York Times (if it knew) should never have allowed her to become so compromised. It is all the more puzzling that a reporter who as a matter of principle would sacrifice 85 days of her freedom to protect a source would so willingly agree to be officially muzzled and thereby deny potentially valuable information to the readers whose right to be informed she claims to value so highly.

One must assume that Ms. Miller was required to sign a standard and legally binding agreement that she would never divulge classified information to which she became privy, without risk of criminal prosecution. And she apparently plans to adhere to the letter of that self-censorship deal; witness her dilemma at being unable to share classified information with her editors.

[Delphinus]

206. Whew!

That's a heck of a lot of questions that really need some answers. Good job by Peace Patriot in putting the dots together. Thanks, Stop the Bleeding, for bringing this to our attention.

[Marie26]

216. What were they covering for?

It's an interesting theory. I agree that the Plame leak has got to be a cover for "something else." Another story that has dropped off the radar is the anthrax scare in 2001. The FBI traced it to a specific strain (Ames) that only a few scientists had the ability to make. It looks like the investigation kept going till they targeted a US Defense microbiologist named Halfill, then stalled completely. Something weird about the "anthrax" story is that the same cast of characters keep springing up - Judith Miller recieved a hoax letter, David Kelly was a microbiologist & a source for Miller's book on bioweapons, Bush administration officials, etc.

What if these two stories are connected? One thing this administration does well is advertising - you can sometimes tell their future plans based on the propaganda they're pushing now. Right after the anthrax letters, US officials repeatedly suggested that Iraq was behind them. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1222-02.htm. The anthrax attacks helped the Bush ad. in 2 ways: it built support for the Patriot Act being considered at the same time, and it built support for a war against Iraq that they desperatly wanted.

In 2003, CIA & Pentagon officials began telling the Washington Times that they expected the Iraq Survey Group to find evidence that Iraq was behind the anthrax attack. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1222-02.htm. The article states that the Group had found traces of anthrax on a bomb in 2003 - it could say that the Iraqi strain was the same Ames strain as the attacks. This would be a neocon dream - steer suspicion away from Defense scientists, prove Iraq was actually attacking the US, & vindicate the war. Except the actual CIA experts in WMD were standing in the way.

In the summer of 2003, another CIA "covert agent" on "WMD counterproliferation" was forced out after he complained about being asked to fake intelligence about Iraq.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49647-2004Dec8.html. It sounds like he may have been a member of the same CIA front company as Valerie Plame. Kokal was also an expert in WMDs, as was Kelly - it seems like there was a sudden push to silence top CIA & State Dept. experts in WMD in late 2003. Could this have been about Iraq's anthrax stores? What if the neocon "plan" was to send anthrax to build public support for the war, then trace that anthrax to Iraq after the invasion? Americans will stand for a lot, but not an attack by elements of our own government. This could explain the Administration's desperate efforts to silence CIA agents, State Dept. agents, or microbiologists like Kelly who could have knowledge of the plan or disprove claims about Iraq's anthrax (This is all just wild speculation here, though!)

[GliderGuider]

223. Recall that Judith Miller got a fake anthrax letter on Oct. 12, 2001

And that she had used Dr. David Kelly as a technical source for her book "Germs" - which about biological warfare. I have no clue what this cluster of facts means, but it sure seems pregnant with significance...

[Marie26]

230. Correction

Sorry, I wanted to correct a link. The link to the Washington Times article is: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20031225-101603-9893r.htm.

Something else odd: Judith Miller & David Kelly actually collaborated on the exact issue of Iraq's alleged anthrax stores for her "Germs" book. This book was published around the same time as the anthrax attacks. I honestly have no idea what this means.

"Around that very time, David Kelly and other inspectors were offering advice and insights to Judith Miller for her book Germs: The Ultimate Weapon, published towards the end of 2001... In Germs, she writes of Iraq's attempts to acquire anthrax and other germs (10). Kelly continued to provide Miller with 'insights' up to December 2002, three months before the start of the war and seven months before he committed suicide."
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA740.htm

[pisle]

219. It's Clinton's fault ... no, really!

All I can really grasp after reading this entire thread is that it's Clinton's fault (ha-ha).

REALLY -- eight years of Clinton "annoyingly" compromised the Bush 1 CIA corner-on-the-market. The only obstacle that the Bush 2 administration had to overcome to carry out the goals they had been tauting since the Nixon years was this faction of the CIA that came into influence during the Clinton years ("Those meddling kids!") --- they tried tp purge this faction by wiping out Plame and Brewster-Jennings, but came up short with a very immediate threat via Joe Wilson (A veteran of Iraq and Africa diplomacy). They didn't expect Joe Wilson to be the man that the "Clinton side" of the CIA picked to investigate the Nigerian Uranium allegations --- so, I say now (though I could be off base) that Clinton's CIA may well end up being the straw that broke the camel's back (Of the 40 year Bush 1 CIA).

Looking forward to this next couple weeks; it will determine our course of action for years to come.

[bj2110]

229. boot. kick. punt. This is it folks, read it and cry...