Homeopathy was more successful during Spanish flu than traditional meds.

[pola]

:kick:

http://www.cure-guide.com/Flu/Homeopathy_and_the_Flu/homeopathy_and_the_flu.html

'Homeopaths are singularly confident about treating viral illness, including flu. There is a long history of successful management of serious acute infections with homeopathy, particularly the flu. Homeopathic medicine proved extremely effective in the management of the 1918 flu epidemic, and it will prove itself in any future flu pandemic, just as it does every winter in the treatment of that year's flu cases. The Spanish flu pandemic was a plague that exceeded the ravages of the Bubonic Plague of 1347 that killed a third of the European population. Worldwide the Spanish flu killed an estimated 40 million people. In some primitive cultures the death rate was 100 percent. Fortunately, many patients in the United States had access to homeopathic medical care. A report to the American Institute of Homeopathy in 1921 documented the dramatic success of homeopathy in the worst flu pandemic in history. The death rate of 24,000 flu cases under conventional medical care in that study was 28.2 percent, while the death rate of 26,000 cases treated with homeopathy was a nearly miraculous 1.05 percent. Similarly, many homeopathic physicians each reported treating thousands of patients with very few deaths.'
:kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Betcha won't be reading or hearing that in any of the mainstream media.

[woodsprite]

2. My grandmother took care of people who

had (and died) from the Spanish flu. Much to her father's dismay. After he found out she had been stopping at friends' houses on her way to/from school, he made her take a shot of whiskey every morning. She said she didn't know if it helped or not, but she never got sick from that flu.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pola]

10. I only post under the name POLA

I don't appreciate your accusations, or your negativity about a system of medicine that is well-known by educated people all over the world.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. The Royal Family of England is not particularly intelligent or educated.

Your favorite example.

[Az]

17. Well known as fraudulent. It is not accepted by any Medical review

It has no clinical trials showing any benefit over a placebo.

Tell you what. There is a standing challenge. Demonstrate that a homeopathic treatment works and you can recieve $1.2 million dollars.

All it has to do is what it claims it can.

[longship]

45. This is totally correct.

Scientists have been using extreme dilution as a way to purge all side effects from reactions for centuries. Now along comes quackery called homeopathy which claims that the scientists have been wrong all along and that side effects are present. It's amazing that chemists have not found this mysterious property independently.

All the physical experiments in quantum mechanics, electron states in molecules, and other electrochemical research has never shown anything remotely like "molecular memory" (whatever that might be).

There is just no research to back up the total quackery of homeopathy.

Homeopathic adherents never explain in scientific terms that can be tested independently. Instead they rely on pseudo-scientific sounding (but flawed) research, anecdotal reports, out of date and misapplied research, and when cornered by the facts, argument from authority, and an occasional straw man. It's pure and simple quackery. Oh, and a whole lot of pure hydrogen-hydroxide.

[beam me up scottie]

76. A Chemist's Brief Look at Homeopathy

A Chemist's Brief Look at Homeopathy
Joe Schwarcz, Ph.D.

I have a problem with homeopathy. To accept its principles, I must cast aside the understanding of chemistry that I have developed over 30 years. Therapy based on nonexistent molecules just does not fit the model. But, of course, I cannot conclude that homeopathy does not work just because its proposed mechanism of action is unacceptable to the current scientific view. After all, was once widely believed that due to the curvature of the earth, radio transmission across the Atlantic would never be possible because radio waves traveled in straight lines. Then it was accidentally discovered that these waves bounce off the atmosphere. However, before reconsidering our theories about molecules, we have to investigate whether homeopathy really does work.

The father of homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann, was trained in the standard medicine of his day and began practicing in Germany in the late 1700s. He quickly became disillusioned with the treatments he had learned. Bleeding, leeches, suction cups, purges, and arsenic powders seemed to do more harm than good. Hahnemann began to ignore his training and to prescribe a regimen that at the time was quite revolutionary: fresh air, personal hygiene, exercise, and a nourishing diet. Since there was little chance of earning a living by simply recommending this regimen, he supplemented his income by using his fluency in eight languages: he undertook to translate medical texts. While working on one of these translations, he encountered an explanation of why quinine supposedly cured malaria -- the substance fortifies the stomach.

Intrigued, Hahnemann took some quinine himself to see if it really had this effect. It did not, but soon he felt feverish: his pulse quickened, his extremities became cold, his head throbbed. As these symptoms were exactly like those of malaria, he reasoned that quinine cured malaria because fever cures fever. In other words, "like cures like." Homeopathy, from the Greek homoios' (like) and pathos, (suffering), was born.

Hahnemann went further, and began systematically testing the effects of a large variety of natural substances on healthy people. Such "provings" led him to conclude that belladonna, for example, could be used to treat sore throats because it caused throat constriction in healthy subjects. But belladonna is a classic poison. Was homeopathy therefore dangerous? Not at all. Hahnemann had another idea. He theorized that the smaller the dose of a given substance, the more effective that substance would be in stimulating the body's "vital force" to ward off disease. So reduced the prescribed doses by repeatedly diluting the original extracts.

The dilutions were extreme. Hahnemann was not bothered by the fact that at high dilutions, none of the original substance remained. He claimed that the power of the curative solution did not come from the presence of an active ingredient but from the fact that the original substance had, in some way, imprinted itself on the solution. In other words, the water in the diluting solution somehow "remembered" the material that had been dissolved in it several dilutions back. This imprinting process had to be carried out very carefully; a simple dilution of the solution was not enough. The vial had to be struck against a special leather pillow a fixed number of times in order to be "dynamized."

Mainstream physicians did not take kindly to these peculiar rites. In fact, the American Medical Association was formed in 1846 largely as a reaction to homeopathy; one of its founding goals was to rid the profession of homeopaths. At times, the association's strictures became ridiculous. One Connecticut doctor lost his membership for consulting a homeopath -- who happened to be his wife.

Nevertheless, homeopathy did not disappear and its advocates gleefully point to studies in peer-reviewed scientific journals that appear to show benefit. But wait a minute. A careful review of these studies yields unimpressive results. In the treatment of a few minor conditions, homeopathy has been reported as slightly more effective than a placebo, but this has no practical implication; it merely attracts academic interest. How can there be any positive results at all when there is no active ingredient? Publication bias is one explanation. "Positive studies" are more likely than than negative studies to be reported. If enough studies are carried out, sooner or later some will have to show positive results based on the law of averages. Reporting these while maintaining silence on negative findings can create the illusion of effectiveness.

Several large reviews of homeopathic research have been published, some done by proponents and some by critics. All agree that homeopathy has not been proven clearly effective for any clinical condition. A detailed analysis of homeopathic research will be posted to HomeoWatch within the next few months.

_________________________

Dr. Schwarcz is director of McGill University's Office for Chemistry and Society. In addition to teaching chemistry at McGill, he hosts a weekly "phone-in" show about chemistry on Montreal radio station CJAD, writes a weekly column called "The Right Chemistry" in the Montreal Gazette, and has a regular TV feature entitled "Joe's Chemistry Set" on the Canadian Discovery Channel. His books Radar, Hula Hoops and Playful Pigs and The Genie in the Bottle feature commentaries on the fascinating chemistry of everyday life.

http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/schwarcz.html

[Dr.Phool]

4. Homeopathy is pure and simple pseudo-science

Or more correctly called faith based medicine. I could offer thousands of pages of de-bunking of this crap, but I'm feeling a little lazy tonight, so I'm not gonna.

[Az]

6. Diluted water sold as a cure is not psuedo science, its a scam and worse

It robbs people of health, money, and hope.

[Dr.Phool]

8. Thank you, you're correct

It's outright fraud!

[beam me up scottie]

70. Faith based is right. Here is a breakdown of what a 30X dilution means.

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

http://www.alternativehealth.co.nz/anti/homeopathy.htm

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Oh, you and your pesky "facts"

You're clearly no fun.

[beam me up scottie]

90. Nope, I'm just one of them there "science-worshipers".

We think education is fun.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. certain alternative treatments make some logical sense to me

homeopathy aint one of them.

[beam me up scottie]

96. Yeah, we've had this discussion before except

it's much easier for them to dismiss skeptics when they claim that we hate everything alternative.

They cannot argue with the facts, so they bash the skeptics that post them.

There are many different alternative medicines available and some actually have been proven to be effective using scientific methods.

And you're right, homeopathy aint one of them.

[FlaGranny]

127. With those dilutions, it is obvious

that we are all receiving homeopathic treatment - every single human, animal, and plant on earth.

[finecraft]

5. During the Black Plague glove makers had a very low death rate

compared to the population as a whole. Why you ask? Because they, as well as tanners and other people that worked with hides, used essential oils like lavender to finish their products and lavender is a great insect repellent. Hopefully the half gallon I have in my refrigerator will protect me when the next Bush catastrophe hits. (I figure its got to be a plague of some sort...we've had firestorms, earthquakes and horrific flooding already, so I guess I'll get prepared for a plague):evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

13. Hey could it have been the gloves?

They say washing our hands is the best prevention for illness? ;)

I do think that homeopathy is a viable alternative to many conventional drugs however.

:hi:

[finecraft]

20. You could be right!

I'll be sure to add a stash of gloves to my at-home "plague disaster kit". So let's see, I'll need gloves, lavender oil, a hazmat respirator mask, duct tape and plastic sheeting. Am I forgetting anything? :)

[mzmolly]

26. I think you've got it all.

:hi:

[paineinthearse]

7. Homeopathy

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Ed., 1993: Homeopathy is "a system of medical practice that treats a disease especially by the administration of minute doses of a remedy that would in healthy persons produce symptoms similar to those of the disease".

[Cha]

9. I take homepathic

remedies and they work well for me.

Whenever I feel something coming on and after this many years I know when I feel something "coming on"..I take the little white pills from Hyland's..called "Flu"(it's for colds and fevers, too) and so far it goes away.

[Dr.Phool]

14. Have you ever heard of "Placebo effect"?

Mathmatically speaking, in dilutions more than 24x, you stand a 50% chance of not having a SINGLE MOLECULE of the cure left in your water.

And, there is absolutely NO scientific evidence that water has any type of "memory" whatsoever.

[Cha]

18. Whatever, as I said it works

for me.

[Az]

19. I can only tell you if you ever come down with something serious

Do not rely on this snake oil. People have died using it instead of real treatment. I tell this to you not to argue with you. Rather I tell you because I am concerned for your welfare.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. "whatever" is the phrase used by clueless when they run out of arguments.

"whatever" is the phrase used by the clueless when they run out of arguments and logic.

Anecdotes do not make science, they only stimulate it.

Let me guess, you flus get "cured" in about 4-7 days? That's about the time flus get cured with no treatment. If it is a bit faster, you undoubtedly have an above average immune system.

Spontaneous remission happens. Natural body process cures happen too.

[burythehatchet]

105. I use the term "whatever" also in the context of when

I'm talking to a close minded person who knows he's got a monopoly on knowledge. Its sort of like talking to a sponge and I use "whatever" to basically imply "please move along, I don't want to waste my breath on you". Just another perspective.

[Cha]

131. Thanks, burythehatchet!

As coincidence would have it..that's the context I was using it in.

When you tell someone it "works" for you..and they're still fussing then "whatever" is priceless. There is certainly more than one context for that word.

[DemExpat]

101. Me too, zidzi

Been taking Homeopathic remedies for chronic stuff over 15 years now - seldom needing my GP or medication - although I do consult both when I feel I might need some orthodox medicine backup.

It is great having Homeopathy and conventional medicine to turn to for support.


DemEx

[all.of.me]

108. me, too.

it's all my family uses. if things get really bad, we see a naturopath, and she gives us stronger doses and herbs if necessary. i can count on one hand the times the three of us have gone to an allopathic doctor, and those times have been for a wart, a dislocated pelvis, strep and an inhaler. i really attribute the health of my kids to breast-feeding, another controversial topic! lol

[DemExpat]

114. Yep,

I also value the years of breastfeeding that I gave my 2 kids. They are young adults now and healthy as can be.
Only once in each of their lives have they used medication from allopathic medicine, and that was one treatment of anti-biotics for a tooth infection, and anti-biotics for my son after his surgery.

DemEx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

120. Why didn't you use homeopathy for the tooth infection?

Wouldn't potentized water be especially good for that?

[DemExpat]

122. My Homeopathic GP advised using anti-biotics for this because

of the proximity of the infection to the brain in our four year old girl.

DemEx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

124. Aha! The brain reveals homeopathy's limits! Use more brain!

[Robb]

125. I have a rock which prevents tiger attack. n/t

[omega minimo]

11. First do no harm. Boosting immunity is key. Debunkers have sour stomachs

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4984782

[Az]

15. Selling people false hope when they should be seeking real help is harm

Its snake oil.

[pola]

21. We are never going to agree, so why fight ?

Let's be peaceful here, and accept each others' differences.
That is what America is all about.
Not tolerating differences is very anti-American.
Let's stop the mud-slinging.
I (and others here) believe in homeopathy as strongly as a few of you disbelieve.
Let's make our points without being rude to those who disagree with you..
You don't have to get personal when you make your points.
Please watch your behavior here.
Thank you,
Respectfully,
Pola

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. pola, you keep starting these fights. Your thread was deleted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5003755

In your thread titled "DANGERS OF VACCINES - read before you get bird flu vaccine !" you stated that no vaccine has been proven effective and you called all vaccines dangerous.

You filled that thread up with dangerous homeopathic nonsense too. And you aren't very respectful about it yourself.

"Ignorance is the most violent element in society." Emma Goldman.

[pola]

25. there you go again, Bernardo, picking a fight with me. I will report you.

Let's be peaceful here, and accept each others' differences.
That is what America is all about.
Not tolerating differences is very anti-American.
Let's stop the mud-slinging.
I (and others here) believe in homeopathy as strongly as a few of you disbelieve.
Let's make our points without being rude to those who disagree with you..
You don't have to get personal when you make your points.
Please watch your behavior here.
Thank you,
Respectfully,
Pola

[Az]

27. It seems to me he is trying to discuss things he disagrees with you on

Or is that what you consider hostile behaviour to be?

[pola]

29. re-read all his messages to me...they are disrespectful and he accused me

of going by another name here.
I don't appreciate being treated that way.

[Az]

24. I do not believe I am using hostile language

Let me be very clear. Promoting a medical treatment that has no measurable effect is harmfull. This is not a question of someone having a belief that I do not agree with. This is something that can and has caused people to die.

I am not a fan of the current state of corporate medicine. But this does not mean I approve of corporate swindling in the name of alternate medicine.

The reasons companies like to peddle alternate cures is because they are not as regulated as the harder sciences. By avoiding regulation they can sell products that do not do what they say. They can make claims of the product that are untrue. And they can do great harm to this society.

If you are troubled with the current state of medical treatment in this nation then fight for a better way. Do not simply turn your back on it and fall for the con game of these dark age leftovers.

[pola]

It is not your language I have a problem with

It is your intolerance of others who disagree with you.
Just because you don't agree with millions of Americans who use homeopathy and believe in it does not mean you have the right to call it fraudulent here.
I will defend homeopathy as ardently as you discredit it.
And I have the right to, as an American.

[Az]

32. You certainly have the right to discuss such things

And I have the right to challenge such claims. And knowing the harm such thinking has caused I will do so passionately.

We live in the 21st century. We have made great progress in understanding in medicine and physics. We have great capacity to study claims and determine if there is any validity to them. Simply put homeopathy does not hold up to any of its claims.

The physics it claims to work by is simply wrong. Water does not retain molecular memory of substances that were once in it. It doesn't work.

Studies consistantly show that there is no effect beyond what would be expected from a placebo.

In double blind studies claimants cannot even pick out which vial is the homeopathic medicine and which is a vial of water.

A lie that interferes with people getting real help when they most desperately need it is the most heinous of things. The fact that you do not believe it is a lie does not make it true. When every measure of understanding shows it to be a lie your complicity in it compounds the evil. You breath life into something that is harming people.

I will remain civil but understand that I find the promotion of this fraud to be the height of immorality and I will not stand by and see anyone hurt by it. I cannot in good conscience.

[omega minimo]

62. Poppycock

"The reasons companies like to peddle alternate cures is because they are not as regulated as the harder sciences. By avoiding regulation they can sell products that do not do what they say. They can make claims of the product that are untrue. And they can do great harm to this society."

You are completely misinformed.

Considering that:
There is a real threat of potentially devastating flu
Bushco. ignored warnings to secure supplies of vaccine for the public
There isn't enough vaccine

People need to prepare and protect themselves with alternative methods that are available. Homeopathy is one of those methods, whether you endorse it or not. Surely you don't consider boosting the immune system controversial?

Your repetitive badgering of the OP and your self-appointed moral obligation to protect people from information you don't agree with are ridiculous. Why do debunkers care so much about DISproving information that helps people? Alternative health professionals and patients don't bother trying to attack your choices-- they get on with what works.

Given the potential for a devastating flu season and the lack of available medicines to treat it-- YOU are the one whose claims can "can do great harm to this society" with your militant misinformation.

The public needs to be MORE-- not less-- informed about treatments that ARE available and DO work. Although debunkers sneer at personal experience as a test of efficacy, human beings don't.

If it works and helps people, why attack it? Why attack the people? Who is doing the real harm? Why not spread your vitriol on the Big Drug companies and Bubba in the White House who have not provided for the public welfare in the coming flu season?

Maybe Big Science should work on a cure for Debunkers. It must hurt like hell.

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

65. Do you know what homeopathy is?

Water.

How are water pills going to protect me from getting the flu?

Or, once I get it, how are they going to cure it?

[omega minimo]

69. Hi Beam. Yes I do. No, it is not "water"

It is based on a theory of dilution. It is not "water."

We need to get people healthy, use preventative medicine and boost those immune systems, rather than wait for an epidemic and wish there was a non-existent pill to take AFTER people are sick.

Homeopathy is one of many alternative health treatments that ARE available and do work. Anyone who is serious about considering these will find plenty of info online or at the friendly neighborhood health food store.

Nice to see you, beam. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4984782

[beam me up scottie]

72. See post #70

It is water.

The homeopaths even admit as much.

I would rather see people get educated about what does and does not work than encourage them to spread their superstitions.

If this strain hits the US, all of the placebos in the world aren't going to help people, no matter how much they want to believe.

Homeopathy does not in any way boost your immune system.

[omega minimo]

75. No it's not. It's dilution. Not superstition. Not placebo. Does boost.

There are a lot of alternatives available. The hostility to alternatives is extremely misguided with the impending flu season and potential for new strains and inadequate standard medicine.

Part of the conflict here is the different mindsets of standard wait-until-its-a-problem-and-treat-the-symptoms medicine and holistic health and preventative medicine.

It's like liberals and conservatives. in this case, the alternative health folks wanna go about their business, possibly help "people get educated about what does and does not work"-- the debunkers are the haters.

[beam me up scottie]

77. Dilution of 30X means that the original substance has been diluted

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.

Not one molecule of the original substance remains.

The water supposedly "remembers".

That is quackery at its worst.

Or best, if you're selling the stuff.

The "alternative health folks" are trying to make a buck just like everyone else.

To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Since many people are confusing homeopathy with other alternative remedies, I think they should be aware of what they are paying for.

[omega minimo]

80. Homeopathy is not "quackery" and debunkers are misguided

If only all this energy of "I think they should be aware of what they are paying for" were applied in areas of standard health treatments that actually DO harm people.

Can the debunkers shift their self-righteous focus to "approved" and accepted medicines, foods and cosmetics that have harmful side effects?

Homeopathy has none.

[beam me up scottie]

84. Homeopathy is harmful to the fools who think it "cures" disease.

How can anyone read and understand the definition of homeopathy and still believe it cures anything?

It is water.

H2O.

If people want to take homeopathic remedies for the sniffles; fine, I really doubt it will harm them.

But if a pandemic hits and people do the same, it will kill them.

My conscience won't allow me to approve of that.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Homeopathy has no harmful side effects?

Do you think that giving children a homeopathic "alternative" instead of the smallpox vaccination wouldn't harm anyone?

Bogus Homeopathic "Smallpox Shield" Stopped
Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Early this year, Bill Gray, M.D. a homeopathic leader who practices in Saratoga, California, began peddling a homeopathic product which he claimed would offer protection "approximately equivalent" to that of smallpox vaccine. His Smallpox Information Central Web site claimed to provide "the most complete and updated information available on smallpox, its pathology, its weaponization, its treatment, and its nontoxic prevention." Gray also claimed that his product, "Nontoxic Smallpox Shield," was "virtually 100% effective despite direct exposure" and "has been proven in smallpox epidemics throughout the world spanning over a century -- when smallpox was in its heyday." The product was said to have been "originally from Variolinum, which is extracted through extreme dilution from smallpox pustule." <1> In an advertisement on the Authors and Experts Web site, Gray further stated:

Tested through centuries of homeopathic experience in worldwide smallpox epidemics, homeopathy has proven completely safe and totally effective in preventing both adverse reactions to vaccines and smallpox itself. It presents a nontoxic alternative that can be given along with the vaccine to assure complete immunity <2>.

FDA regulations state that homeopathic products offered for use only in "self-limiting conditions recognizable by consumers" may be marketed without a prescription <3>. The price was $19.95 for a single-dose vial and $24.95 for a 3-dose vial, plus shipping and handling. Possibly hoping to get around the law, Gray added a "digital prescription fee" of $30, which would cover up to four individuals in a family. However, because all drugs marketed as must be "generally recognized by experts" as safe and effective for their intended purpose, Gray's claims were illegal in addition to being preposterous. On April 2, 2003, the FDA sent him a warning letter stating that it was illegal to introduce biological products into interstate commerce, a special license was needed and that his product could not be distributed for human use without FDA approval <4>. Gray's Smallpox Information Central Web site is no longer online.

Gray has practiced homeopathy for more than 30 years. In 1978, he co-founded the International Foundation for the Promotion of Homeopathy, which was renamed International Foundation for Homeopathy (IFT) in 1981. IFT functioned for 20 years, during which it offered courses, held conferences, and published a newsletter <5>. Gray's writings include Homeopathy: Science or Myth? <6> and Homeopathy: Medicine for the New Man, (which he edited). In the foreword to the latter book, he described how after graduating from Stanford Medical School he had turned toward various "holistic fields" with the hope of finding "a method that was systematic enough to deal with the deep chronic diseases which are the challenge of every physician." Not long afterward, after meeting a prominent Greek homeopath (George Vithoulkas), he concluded that "in the hands of a true Master, homeopathy holds the answer for the vast majority of disease sufferers." In 1985, Gray co-founded the Hahnemann College of Homeopathy, a nonaccredited school.

http://www.homeowatch.org/reg/gray.html

[Gelliebeans]

83. omega minimo, I have to respectfully disagree

Immune systems are very intricate and certain people will not benefit from immune boosts, in fact they could detrimental to their very systems. For instance, people with certain auto-immune diseases have hyper-active immune systems in which case they don't need boosts they need suppression. Immune boosts could cause further inflammation by attacking good cells in mistaken identity of an antigen.

It is unfortunate that most of these alternatives are marketed to people who are already sick with very real diseases that can be helped with a good doctor-patient relationships and modern pharmaceuticals. You are correct that this in alternative therapy, however I would not endorse any product my own physician would not recommend as he oversees my health care. People are free to take whatever they choose but NOTHING substitutes the advice of your doctor or trusted medical provider.

Many times people will delay conventional therapy in preference to alternatives that they deem worthy as innocent but the fact that they tried to treat themselves first before seeing a doctor can in fact hinder their recovery thus reducing their individual choice of therapy.

I type this with personal experience. If I listened to the people that wanted me to try the alternative therapies first, I might not be here today. Just my two cents.

[Pepperbelly]

132. That does not appear to be the definition ...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=homeopathy

I know absolutely nothing about this which is, of course, why I went first to the dictionary to see what it actually is.

[SidDithers]

135. Maybe you should do more research...

or do the math for the extreme dilutions yourself. See BMUS's post about dilution above.

Sid

[Orrex]

31. Disbelief doesn't enter into it

Show me verifiable evidence that homeopathic remedies offer a cure unavailable via actual medicine, and if your evidence holds up, then I will accept it.

For the record, testimony is not sufficient evidence, nor are sporadic, non-specific, and non-reproducible effects subsequent to the use of homeopathic remedies.

It's not a matter of disbelief, because medicine is not a matter of belief. Homeopathic treatments offer no verifiable curative effect.

If you disagree, show me the evidence to the contrary.

[pola]

33. did you read the article I posted about the Spanish flu ?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. It's a crock. It was a report paid for by the Homeopathic Inst in 1921.

It's a crock. It was a report paid for by the American Institute of Homeopathy in 1921. Hardly unbiased and hardly the epitome of science. It is 84 years old.

[pola]

37. Educate yourselves on homeopathy at this link : why it is NOT placebo.

Click on FAQ's to see why it is not placebo.
I also use is succesfully on my pets and believe me, it has cured their urinary tract infections right away with no other medicine needed. I use a homeopathic vet as well.
Educate yourselves about homeopathy before you judge.
You may be surprised at what you read here.
Best wishes,
Pola

http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_info/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

39. It's dangerous pseudo-scientific placebo fraud. From your site ...

http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_info/homeopathy_faq.html

4. Can such small doses be effective?
Homeopathic remedies are indeed very small doses. However, they are specially prepared doses which undergo a specific process — including dilution of ingredients (called potentization), as well as a vigorous shaking (succussion).

Specially formulated homeopathic remedies are thought to resonate with the body, triggering a positive healing response. This response gently, and effectively, heals from the inside out.

It's dangerous pseudo-scientific placebo fraud. "potentization", "succussion", "resonate". Dressing "shaking" up in a fancy Latinate robe does not make it scientific.

Water does not have memory.

[pola]

40. in YOUR opinion,... I was cured by a M.D. who was also a homeopath

Dear Bernardo,
I was cured of chronic fatigue syndrome when doctors could not help me in 1986.
My homeopathic doctor is also an M.D. who now teaches homeopathy to M.D.'s YES, I mean Medical Doctors who want to use homeopathy in their practices. Alternative medicine IS being taught now in medical schools because it is so popular with Americans.
I know first-hand that homeopathy works.
AS I said, my animals have been successfully treated by a homeopathic vet for all kinds of conditions... bloody urine clearing right up, scratches to the eye clearing right up, etc. I guarantee you it was not placebo.

Sincerely yours,
Pola

[Az]

49. Interesting malady

In the 80's it was quite common for doctors to diagnose any sort of fatigue as chronic fatigue. It was even given the name Yuppie Flu due to its numerous diagnosis amongst the Yuppie set.

It was often misdiagnosed depression or other mental disorders. Even in the cases of actual Chronic Fatigue it was not unknown for the symptoms to subside on its own.

You'r personal experience certainly does not constitute evidence. It is of course convincing to you because you believe you experienced a cure through the medicine. But there is nothing in your story that provides any direct evidence that you were properly diagnosed, the homeopathic treatment had any effect beyond a placebo, or that the condition did not right itself.

If you are so convinced of its efficacy then it is quite simple for you to make quite a bit of money. Simply contact James Randi in Florida. He has a standing offer of $1.2 million for anyone that can demonstrate the efficacy of homeopathic treatments. Dog or human. If it does what you claim it does you will be quite well rewarded.

[pola]

50. I was diagnosed by an M.D. with Epstein Barr, and that M.D. was amazed

when I recovered with homeopathy, since he was not able to help me.
My Epstein-Barr titers DID drop to normal range shortly after homeopathic treatment. That was on my medical records and was proven.
My regular doctor was very impressed and amazed. He told me to keep doing the homeopathy since it was obviously working.
My homeopathic docotor was an M.D. also.
Why do you think M.D.'s practice homeopathy ?
Because it works.
I have no interest in contacting that man offerring the reward.
My reward is my good health.
All the best,
Pola

[Az]

51. Then do good with the money

Its just sitting there. You could collect the money and donate it to cause. You could invest in a homeopathic study and show the world its wonders. It seems awefully selfish if you are so certain not to do something to better the world. You could change things for the better.

[pola]

54. Being cured by homeopathy is not unusual -

I don't think I would qualify for the money just because I was cured.
Many people have been cured similarly by homeopathy.
Why would they award me the money ?
I am no different than most people who have been cured by homeopathy.
I am not special or different than most people.
Homeopathy routinely cures people.
My surgeon even recommended homeopathic Arnica to take to speed my recovery from surgery 2 years ago.
Why ?
Because it works.
It is not unusual.
Sincerely,
Pola

[Az]

58. Your story would not suffice

Simply put the offer is based on whatever you claim homeopathy can do. If you say it can treat a scratched eye then do so. If you claim it can treat blood in urin then do so.

There have been countless tests on this supposed claim. Each time it fails.

As to doctors telling you to continue using it, it can be quite as simple as them not wanting to tangle with your beliefs. They have treated you for whatever they have had to. That you partake in something they consider to be false is none of their business. Drinking water is not going to harm you. So its not their place to interfere as long as you continue to seek treatment from real doctors as well.

And as to Doctors that practice homeopathy, I can show you doctors that believe that exorcism is a good idea. Doctors are people too. They can believe all manner of things. Appealing to single doctors as a basis of authority is not a means to providing evidence that it works. It is studies and tests that provide the authority from which we can make informed descisions. And the tests simply do not favor homeopathy.

[pola]

60. I respectfully disagree with you on all points

[Bernardo de La Paz]

86. Merely "disagreeing" is evading the issues and not a refutation.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

87. Anecdotes of spontaneous remissions do not constitute evidence.

This has been explained to you earlier in time in this thread.

[Az]

52. Incidently Epstein-Barr is not associated with CFS

It was once thought to be linked but further studies have refuted any connection.

[pola]

55. Yes, I know that, and I had all the symptoms of classic CFIDS

I am an expert by now on CFIDS, now that I have had it.
I will never take my health for granted again.
Epstein Barr can be a contributing factor, though.
I had all the classic symptoms as well.

[woo me with science]

119. What better treatment to cure a hysterical illness

than a placebo water treatment?

For a fine discussion of chronic fatigue syndrome and why most physicians consider it psychological in origin, try reading Elaine Showalter's book, "Hystories." CFS is a junk diagnosis, and homeopathy is a junk treatment. I'm glad your imaginary medicine cured your imaginary disease.

[pola]

41. NOT TRUE

[bread_and_roses]

110. Was it or was it not paid for by the Homeopathic Institute? Is or is not

80+ years old? If not, provide some evidence to the contrary. Most people on this board expect a higher level of substantiation than "is so!" or "is not!"

[pola]

42. NOT TRUE

[pola]

43. NOT TRUE is my response to message above 'IT'S A CROCK'

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. Repeating "NOT TRUE" three times doesn't make it more or less true.

[omega minimo]

79. Yeah, you have to tap your heels together 3 times & say "There's no place"

"like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home." :evilgrin:


At least we figgered out why debunkers are so STRIDENT:

"Ignorance is the most violent element in society."

[Dr.Phool]

16. Homeopathic practitioners have sour brains.

[omega minimo]

66. Debunking addicts have impacted colons

Science needs to find a cure for debunkery. It doesn't make sense all the energy they put into attacking what they don't understand/condone/approve. Is it like the thing where homophobes attack homosexuals because they're afraid the ARE?

IMHO it is a public service to provide more information-- not less-- about alternative and especially PREVENTATIVE health options that are available.

Is boosting the immune system "wishful thinking"? Even if it works?

Positivity I can understand. Bitter debunkery seems like a sad waste of time and energy.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

82. You're talking about somebody else. I'm not bitter. I'm happy to debunk

Saving people from death and harm at the hands of homeopathic treatments is a positive good. Additionally, it is a pleasant diversion from other routines to debunk destructive frauds, even if the promulgators of those frauds don't debate points raised and make underhanded attempts at argumentation.

Your ad hominem attacks contribute nothing to this debate and you should leave them out if you want any respect.

There are plenty of alternative and especially preventative health options available that I and other debunkers endorse, especially good nutrition. Boosting the immune system is not "wishful thinking". It is part of the foundation of good health. It works. Homeopathy does not boost the immune system and homeopathy does not work. Foods like elderberries (mentioned by another poster) are wonderful because like many colored berries they are rich in anti-oxidants, vitamins, and probably resveratrol.

[hallc]

28. Ugh

*facepalm* - i have neither the motivation nor the energy to go into how wrong you are. But, go on taking your eye of newt and i'll take get my vaccination and we'll see who lives longest.

[firefox]

30. The flu forum at CureZone.com

This is a new forum at CureZone.com that came about because of the Avian flu terra alert- http://tinyurl.com/7ucol You can read about what actions people are thinking about to protect themselves and see that "homeopathy" is not some highly defined solution. But that being said the underlying belief of health that prevails at CureZone calls for keeping yourself and immune system in the best possible shape to start with.

[Taxloss]

35. Have fun believing this stuff.

I'll be behind my N95 facemask and washing my hands, thanks.

[hallc]

36. is it bad that i stole a couple n95s from work

before i quit? They may come in handy - hell, if they can keep out TB, they will work on the flu :)

[pinto]

38. "Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects?" (The Lancet)

The Lancet 2005 366 726-732

DOI:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67177-2

Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy

Aijing Shang, Karin Huwiler-Müntener, Linda Nartey, Peter Jüni, Stephan Dörig, Jonathan AC Sterne, Daniel Pewsner and Matthias Egger


Summary

Background

Homoeopathy is widely used, but specific effects of homoeopathic remedies seem implausible. Bias in the conduct and reporting of trials is a possible explanation for positive findings of trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. We analysed trials of homoeopathy and conventional medicine and estimated treatment effects in trials least likely to be affected by bias.

Methods

Placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy were identified by a comprehensive literature search, which covered 19 electronic databases, reference lists of relevant papers, and contacts with experts. Trials in conventional medicine matched to homoeopathy trials for disorder and type of outcome were randomly selected from the Cochrane Controlled Trials Register (issue 1, 2003). Data were extracted in duplicate and outcomes coded so that odds ratios below 1 indicated benefit. Trials described as double-blind, with adequate randomisation, were assumed to be of higher methodological quality. Bias effects were examined in funnel plots and meta-regression models.

Findings

110 homoeopathy trials and 110 matched conventional-medicine trials were analysed. The median study size was 65 participants (range ten to 1573). 21 homoeopathy trials (19%) and nine (8%) conventional-medicine trials were of higher quality. In both groups, smaller trials and those of lower quality showed more beneficial treatment effects than larger and higher-quality trials. When the analysis was restricted to large trials of higher quality, the odds ratio was 0·88 (95% CI 0·65–1·19) for homoeopathy (eight trials) and 0·58 (0·39–0·85) for conventional medicine (six trials).

Interpretation

Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

The Lancet is available on line by registration.

http://www.thelancet.com/home

[pola]

47. My homeopath was also an M.D. M.D.'s use homeopathy !

Why ?
Because homeopathy works, and because of this it is very popular, and Alternative Medicine is a trend that is growing in America.
That's why medical schools now offer courses in alternative medicine.
The public is demanding it.
Why ?
Because it works.
All the fancy studies in the world don't change the fact that it works for a majority of people. I go with what works. Allopathic medicine did not cure me of chronic fatigue syndrome. Homeopathy did. And rather dramatically. That is why I believe in it.
There have been many studies trying to discredit alternative cancer treatments that have worked for people also...people who have been given up to die by their doctors.
Studies are biased too.

Sincerely,
Pola

[pinto]

53. Glad something worked for you. The Lancet study doesn't look to deny

or discredit your experience. It does find, though, that homeopathy results can be attributed to placebo response. There is nothing wrong with a placebo response - it works. That doesn't make it a cure or even a treatment of choice for everyone.

And, to be honest, I'll place a chunk of faith in a sound, documented, results based "fancy" study.

Take care.

[pola]

56. I respect your opinion.

Please respect mine.
I have faith in what works.

[DemExpat]

104. Empiricist (vitalist) over Rationalists (science)

We base our knowledge and search for truth on personal experience.

My Homeopath is also a medically trained GP.

My pets' Homeopath/acupuncturist is a medical and practicing Vet.

Good to have treatment covered by both sources of health knowledge.

:hi:

DemEx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

107. Scientists are both Empiricists and Rationalists. Homeopathy is anecdotal

Scientists are both Empiricists and Rationalists. Homeopathy is anecdotal at best and is neither empirical or rational. It is not empirical because large scale studies like the Lancet study show it to be about as good as placebo. It is not rational because it offers no theory of efficacy that doesn't depend on magical handwaving. For example, there is no basis in physics or chemistry for the "potentization" of water. Water has no memory.

Your good health is a blessing to you. It probably results from good nutrition, good sanitation, good environmental regulation, good hygiene, good lifestyle (smoke?), good exercise, and good luck. I hope you get good and wise before you run into a bad patch.

Even if you have good health despite bad nutrition, bad hygiene, bad lifestyle, and lack of exercise, you can still have good luck. Kurt Vonnegut, 82 years old, smokes cigarettes. Perhaps you will take that as conclusive evidence that everyone should smoke cigarettes. Or perhaps you will acknowledge the rational explanations of the mechanisms of lung cancer, including irritation and inflamation of lung tissue, excessive mitosis as a result, leading to runaway tumor growth when the telomer terminators on the genes fail, metastasis and statins. Perhaps you will acknowledge also that the rational explanations are in line with empirical knowledge derived through statistical epidemiology.

If the mechanisms of homeopathy work for flu viruses, which operate by a DNA mechanism, surely they would work for cancer which operates by a (somewhat different) DNA mechanism.

Would you treat lung cancer with homeopathy?

[DemExpat]

113. My long term positive experience with Homeopathy is

my empiricist test, which I of course will continue to use in my evaluation of the efficacy of any treatment.

Conventional meds didn't help me with some serious health issues - Homeopathy did.

This is my conclusive result.

No amount of other modes of testing will disprove my experience, or lead me to turn away from Homeopathy and rely solely on orthodox medicine.

BTW - I had cervical cancer successfully treated surgically, and my son had emergency surgery for testicular torsion last year.
Blessings, both treatments.

I love using both systems for different health needs. If I had lung cancer I would consult both Homeopathy and conventional medicine before choosing my treatment.

DemEx

[DELUSIONAL]

46. Read the link before preaching

I took the time to read the link -- which contradicts one very negative person posting above. It really torques me off when someone with great authority denounces something without even having bothered to read the information in an article at the posted link which started the thread.

It might be a good idea to have Oscillococcinum (200C) on hand -- just in case. You can get Oscillococcinum (200C) at drug stores like Walgreen's etc.

I've used homeopathic remedies on my pets -- and it works.

Vaccinations are a form of homeopathic remedies --

At some time in the future "modern" day medicine will be considered very primitive and backward by future scientists. That is if bushie's anti-science and anti-intelligentsia is defeated.

Oscillococcinum

One specific homeopathic medicine used to treat the flu has been subjected to clinical trials. The medicine is a homeopathic preparation of the liver and heart of a Barbary duck (trade name Oscillococcinum). This medicine was first formulated in 1925. Its name arose from a spurious notion that the blood of flu victims in the 1918 pandemic contained bacteria composed of balls (cocci) that vibrated, or oscillated. Joseph Roy, a French physician at the time identified this supposed pathogen and found it in many animal species. He chose as the source of his homeopathic preparation a duck, possibly an extremely fortuitous accident because of the association between human flu epidemics and bird viruses.

Oscillococcinum was first studied in France during the 1987 flu epidemic caused by an H1N1 virus. This multi-center study examined the effect of Oscillococcinum (200C) on the early symptoms of flu. Results were published in the peer-reviewed British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology. A group of 149 non-homeopathic physicians enlisted 487 patients in the study, each of whom had developed flu-like symptoms during the previous 24 hours. Symptoms met strict criteria for the level of fever and the presence of associated flu symptoms. This took place in the midst of a documented flu epidemic. A treatment group and control group were established and the medicine prescribed in 5 doses, once at the physician's office and then twice a day for two days following. More patients in the treatment group recovered completely in the first 48 hours than the control group (17 percent of patients with active treatment compared to 10 percent of controls). This was deemed a statistically significant difference. More patients in the treatment group also judged the treatment as favorable compared to the placebo, 61 percent vs 49 percent (Ferley, 1989).

In 1990 German physicians replicated the French study of Oscillococcinum. They used the same criteria as the previous study and enrolled 372 patients. After 48 hours of treatment with Oscillococcinum the treatment group had significantly milder symptoms than the control group, and the number of patients with no symptoms from day two onward was significantly greater in the treatment group (17.4 percent) compared to the control group (6.6 percent) (Papp, 1998).

Both of these studies show a significant curative effect of a homeopathic medicine in the treatment of flu in carefully conducted, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials. The two studies were done in different countries, each with many participating physicians, and during two different flu epidemics, presumably caused by different viruses. Conventional antiviral drugs reduce the duration of flu by about one day if taken within the first 48 hours of illness (Cooper, 2003). Comparing the results of these studies with the meager effect of conventional treatment shows that homeopathy carries the potential to make a dramatic difference in any flu epidemic without the risk of drug side effects.

[pola]

48. THANK YOU !!!

I appreciate your posting this !
Hopefully some people will read the link now.

[Rainscents]

63. I am a true believer of homeopathy medicine!

Oscillococcinum, this is what I use when first sign of flu and it work! Mine kick it in two days! I also use Black Elderberry 4 times a day for first three days and drop it down to two times per day for another 4 days.

15 years ago, I use to be very very sick and no one knew what was wrong with me and I had so many test, I lost count! I had Ashma, digestion problems, allergies, bleeding from colon, going bold and was in and out of the hospital. I thought, I was going to die! I finally went to see a homeopathy doctor and he ran few test and told me, my problems were caused by overloaded toxic in my body! He start it me on whole body cleansing system, got me on organic supplements, enzymes and few other things. Guess what? I got 100% better after 18 months of his remedy and I am very healthy and I don't hardly get sick anymore!

So, please do NOT knock homeopathy!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

64. Oscillococcinum

Preparation

1. Fill a sterile one litre bottle with a mixture of pancreatic juice and glucose
2. Take one Barbary duck, chop off its head, extract its liver and heart
3. Add 35g (1.2oz) of the duck's liver and 15g (0.5oz) of its heart to the bottle.
4. Let the bottle stand for 40 days; the liver and heart will dissolve
5. Fill a clean glass container (of any size) with ultra-pure distilled water
6. Add one drop of the duck mixture
7. Shake vigorously ("succussion")
8. Empty the container
9. Refill the container with water
10. Repeat the steps of shaking, emptying and re-filling 200 times
11. Use the resultant water to moisten 5mg lactose tablets.

The Efficacy of Oscillococcinum

Since the repeated emptying and refilling of the glass dilutes the solution by at least 100 times, the original drop of duck is diluted by 100²⁰⁰, or 10⁴⁰⁰. This is significantly more than the number of atoms in the universe, so it is vastly improbable that even a single molecule derived from the original animal will remain. Homeopathic practitioners contend that the water has been "potentized" by the duck's tissues.

There is debate over the efficacy of Oscillococcinum. Since it is used for the relief of symptoms of flu, a self-limiting disease which lasts for a random number of days, the best it can do is shorten the duration of those symptoms. If one takes Oscillococcinum and one's flu goes away, then it is easy to attribute this to the Oscillococcinum. However, the infection would have passed in any case.

Various clinical trials of Oscillococcinum have been conducted. Some seem to show that Oscillococcinum can reduce the duration of the symptoms of flu. The statistical significance and the scientific rigor of these studies is debated, and in any case the placebo effect could be the result of taking Oscillococcinum.

In a recent review of the published clinical studies by A. J. Vickers and C. Smith for the Cochrane Library, the authors reported that the studies showed that Oscillococcinum possibly reduced the duration of the flu by about six hours, but has no effect on preventing flu. They concluded the data are not strong enough to make a general recommendation to use Oscillococcinum .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillococcinum which has external links to the studies referenced.

[charlie]

73. It's a really, really, really, really small serving

of duck soup. I recommend a much larger helping of chicken soup. Tastes good and works just as well.

[beam me up scottie]

68. Heh heh. DELUSIONAL, eh?

Education is the cure for what ails you.
Start with this:

The True Story of Oscillococcinum
Jan Willem Nienhuys

Whenever the flu season nears, prudent consumers get immunized against the most virulent strains of flu that are expected. This is especially recommended for people who are elderly or have chronic lung disease, diabetes, or various other chronic diseases. In France, however, lots of people arm themselves against this by taking Oscillococcinum. What a strange name! Where does it come from, and what does it mean?

Oscillococcinum was discovered by Joseph Roy (1891-1978) <1>, a French physician who was on military duty when the Spanish flu hit the world in 1917. He examined the blood of victims and found a strange microorganism: a bacterium that consisted of two unequal balls that performed a quick vibratory motion. Roy called them "oscillococci" and thought they could vary much in size. Sometimes they shrunk so much that he couldn't see them with his microscope. But they could also grow and get one or two more balls.



Next Roy discovered these bacteria in the blood and the tumors of cancer patients, in syphilitic ulcers, in the tubercles of tuberculosis patients and in the pus of gonorrhea sufferers. Also people who had eczema, rheumatism, mumps, chickenpox and measles turned out to harbor this "universal germ."

It is not clear today what Roy saw through the eyepiece of his microscope. But one thing is certain: he did not see the causes of those diseases. Rheumatism, eczema, and most forms of cancer are not caused by microbes, and mumps and measles are caused by viruses, which can't be seen with an ordinary microscope. Moreover, no other bacteriologist has ever reported seeing Roy's special cocci again.

Roy thought he had made a new and thrilling discovery on the road to the cure for cancer. He even wrote a book about it. In his time, many people doubted the idea that every disease has its own cause (such as its own microbe). Such skeptics embraced Roy's discovery.

Roy thought immediately of a homeopathic application. The fundamental teaching of Samuel Hahnemann (1775-1843) is that disease is a disturbance of "life force" and that specific causes for diseases do not exist. Possibly vague environmental factors may play a role, he thought, and his idea was that scabies and syphilis were such factors, which he called "miasmas." Hahnemann first published his views in 1796. Other parts of Hahnemann's views were that diseases can be cured if one imparts to the patient an artificial disease that produces similar life force disturbances as the real disease. The short-lived artificial disease will drive out the real disease and then the patient is cured. The remedies act by their spiritual power and this spiritual nonphysical power can be imparted to alcohol or milk sugar by a process of shaking or rubbing, just like iron can be made magnetic by rubbing it with a magnet.

Roy's finding fit perfectly with the homeopathic view that diseases do not have specific causes, and he thought that his discovery could be adapted to treat cancer homeopathically. Just take any abundant source of oscillococci, and after homeopathic reinforcement, it will become a panacea. Now oscillococci occur virtually everywhere, but for reasons nobody knows Roy took as source the muscovy duck, which French cooks use to prepare duck breast. These cooks call the animal Canard de Barbarie, but biologists know it as Cairina moschata. Completely in line with the unscientific traditions of homeopathy, Oscillococcinum is denoted in Latin with the wrong name, "Anas Barbariae, Hepatis et Cordis Extractum," even though Anas ducks are quite different from Cairina ducks.

Preparation

Since 1925, Oscillococcinum has been prepared as follows. Into a one litre bottle, a mixture of pancreatic juice and glucose is poured. Next a Canard de Barbarie is decapitated and 35 grams of its liver and 15 grams of its heart are put into the bottle. Why liver? Doctor Roy writes: "The Ancients considered the liver as the seat of suffering, even more important than the heart, which is a very profound insight, because it is on the level of the liver that the pathological modifications of the blood happen, and also there the quality of the energy of our heart muscle changes in a durable manner." Maybe the French tendency to call any form of not well-being a "crise de foie" ("bilious attack") had also something to do with it. After 40 days in the sterile bottle, liver and heart autolyse (disintegrate) into a kind of goo, which is then "potentized" with the Korsakov method.

Semyon Nicolaevich Korsakov (1788-1853) was a modest landowner in the village Tarusovo near Moscow <2>. After 1813, he held a not-too-demanding desk job in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, enabling him to dabble in lay medicine. In about 1829, he converted to homeopathy and invented a quicker way of preparing high dilutions. The glass containing the remedy is shaken and then just emptied and refilled, and the dilution factor is assumed to be 1:100.

In ordinary homeopathy one has to use a new clean glass for every dilution, so the Korsakov method is very cost-effective. In preparing Korsakov potencies, distilled water is used rather than alcohol (sometimes only after the 30th dilution), which saves a lot of money if one has to repeat the dilution step 200, 1000 or even 50,000 times. Oscillococcinum's manufacturer (Boiron) uses "ultrapure water" from the first step on. Oscillococcinum is designated as "200K" -- which means that the original amount is subjected to 200 Korsakov dilutions -- and the resulting fluid is used to moisten small 5 milligram balls of milk sugar. Some packages have been labeled "200CK." ("C" is the abbreviation for centesimal, which means 1-to-100 dilution, and "CK" stands for "centesimal Korsakovian." ) Other packages have been labeled 200C," which does not specify which dilution method was used.

Korsakov's first name is often incorrectly transcribed as Semen, and some biographers use the nonexistent first name Iseman or Isemen. In German transcription he is Simon Korsakoff. Various myths say that he was a nobleman or count, a physician with or without PhD, the czar's personal physician, or even a general who invented the Korsakov method on the battlefield. None of this is true. Hahnemann addressed him as "Monsieur le comte de Korsakoff" in a time that foreigners customarily used noble titles for any Russian who could speak French. Korsakov's method gained Hahnemann's approval in 1832.

Dubious Claims

The good doctor Roy thought that his concoction worked against cancer, syphilis, scabies and tuberculosis, but Boiron only recommends it for "flu-like states" and asks just over a dollar per gram for it. Hundreds of thousands of French buy this energetically advertised nonsense product. It is recommended for prevention (one dose per week in the flu season) and as cure. And, contrary to classical homeopathic usage, one has to gobble up a one-gram doses, rather than take a single 5 mg ball as a lifetime dose.

There's no logical reason to believe that anything in duck liver or heart will be an effective flu remedy. But even if there were some magic substance, the manufacturing process guarantees that it will not be in the finished product. The laws of chemistry indicate that after the 12th dilution, it is unlikely that a single molecule from the original organs will remain. Moreover, at "200C" (or "200K" or "200 CK") the concentration of the original substance would be 1 part in 100200, which is a 1 followed by 400 zeroes. A 1 followed by 100 zeroes is called a googol. The estimated number of particles in the universe that we can see is a googol, give or take a few zeroes. So in order for one of the original molecules to be present in a container of Oscillococcinum, the mass of that container would have to be about a googol googol googol times our world, which would be incomprehensibly larger than the visible universe.

How, then, could anyone conclude that Oscilloccinum is effective? Homeopathic theory holds that if large amount of a substance can produce symptoms in healthy people, infinitesimal amounts can cure diseases with those symptoms. The alleged effects are determined through experiments (most done over 100 years ago) in which people ingest the substances and report what they experience afterward. These reports have been compiled into huge books that supposedly provide the "drug picture" of each substance. The books, called materia medica, are said to comprise "all the recorded mental, general and local (particular) symptoms and signs, modalities, pathological changes and test findings" for each substance." <4>

Oscillococcinum's drug picture illustrates irrationality to the nth degree. I received it after I complained about an ad. A Dutch Boiron representative responded that the drug picture supported the company's claims of curative powers. The drug picture alleged that oscillococcinum can can help:

Diabetics who are afraid when during a thunderstorm their husband seems to be late, while they have a feeling of electric currents through their varicose veined legs, anal itch and itchy bumps on their wrist, that they keep trying to wash off in a maniacal way, especially when they have a runny nose and stubbornly resist advice not to worry.

The list of relevant individual symptoms included:

Tuberculosis patients sensitive to chilling.

Luetic patients having obsessive ideas.

General symptoms: Lean, pale, chronic invalidity, weakness, need for fresh air even when afraid of cold. Stiffness, shivering, feeling too hot, headache, weakness, repeating shakes descending down the body. Feeling of electric current running through the diseased part. Bitter and grayish secretions, not much.

Aggravates: when you think about it, by moisture, fog, changes of weather, in the night, when resting, after eating eggs or drinking milk.

Improves: in free air, at the seaside, by heat, resting, after evacuations.

Sleep: sleepless with agitation during the night.

Mental symptoms: Latent anxiety, especially when someone doesn't return on time) fear, unquietness without clear cause. Impatience, improves when one is busy. Quick speech and understanding. Futility, tendency to be maniacal. Pettyness. Can't stand disorder, fear of dirt and pollution. Urge to often wash hands. Afraid to shake hands for fear of contagion. Stubbornness. Depressed, thinks back of his past fear of thunderstorms.

Local symptoms: Clouding of the senses. Sudden vertigo. Pain in the right of the head, with repeated shaking. Heavy feeling in the head. Sudden feeling of decoupling in the head. Headache in the front of the head, also occipital, worse in the morning than in the evening, better when one blows the nose. Pain in the maxillary region. Feeling of something running across the face on the right half. Feeling of a bug that runs over the face during the night.

That's about half. The rest include:

Violent needle-like pain in the ears; flu-like state; runny nose; yellow conjunctiva; dry painful cough; wet cough with mucopurulent expectoration; whole tongue putrid; vomit; pain in the appendix region; abdominal cramp followed by fetid smelling diarrhea; persistent obstipation; full feeling in the belly; anal itch, worse in the warmth of the bed, with or without hemorrhoids; itch after antibiotics; hyperglycaemia; painful micturation; cloudy urine; sugar in urine; fetid and yellow leucorrhea; hypotension; hypertension; varicose veins; phlebitis; ulcerations in the legs, painful in the night; chronic streptococcal eczema; feelings of electric shocks in the lower leg; little bumps that itch on the inside of the wrist.

References
Oscillococcinum, le joli grand canard. Science et Pseudo-sciences, Cahiers bimestriels de l'Association Française pour l'Information Scientifique, No 202, mars-avril 1993.
Kotok A. The history of homeopathy in the Russian Empire until World War I, as compared with other European countries and the USA: similarities and discrepancies. PhD thesis, submitted November 1999.
Anas Barbariae, Hepatis et Cordis Extractum. The Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States, monograph #0137, June 1989.
Homeopathic Medicine Research Group. Dictionary of Homeopathy, First Edition, 1996.

********
http://www.homeowatch.org/history/oscillo.html

______________

[libbygurl]

57. I don't get the extreme hostility of

posters arguing homeopathy doesn't work at all. Firstly, pola has been very polite in answering the posts. Secondly, how do you explain the placebo effect in animals, then? Do the animals know the homeopathic drugs from conventional ones? If so, they're smarter than us/ Same thing with something different but related - acupuncture - works on animals, too. Placebo effect, yes?

[pola]

59. Thank you !!!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

61. polo hasn't answered the posts

Specific points have been posted in refutation of pola's points, but pola never answers. Instead pola throws out some other web site and says "go read". Constant redirection is not a valid method of debate. It seems that after being given many opportunities, pola is incapable or unwilling to refute reasonable arguments.

Animals are prone to placebo effects too, yes. What you write indicates that you do not understand what placebo means or what a double blind study is. Placebo effect is not "know the homeopathic drugs from conventional ones".

[arikara]

91. They always come out of the woodwork when alternatives are brought up

I can't even be bothered to read their posts. The way they carry on its like they're on the payroll of the drug companies or something.

I took a homeopathic flu vaccine last year and will do the same this year. I take a homeopathic cold remedy and it will stop the cold in its tracks... 1 or 2 days instead of 5 to 7.

[Pooka Fey]

94. Wow, never heard of this. Where can I get one?

I've always avoided getting the regular flu vaccines, because I never thought they would help - and I'm reasonably healthy. But this year I was going to get one. I'd rather get a homeopathic flu vaccine.

[DemExpat]

103. My daughter used to have recurring sore throats that caused

her much discomfort throughout the winter months.

Now at the first sign she takes Homeopathic stuff that knocks it out after a couple of doses.

She's happy!

DemEx

[DemExpat]

102. So true....15 years of treating my pets with Homeopathy

after conventional meds didn't help or caused unacceptable side-effects - or to avoid surgery has - has me sold on its healing powers.

DemEx

[Az]

115. Sold you is the operative phrase

Look, bodies heal. Its what they do. The problem is not the treatment. Drinking water is harmless. The trouble is you are being conned into believing this stuff is doing something. As you rely on it you will eventually come across something serious and then your reliance on it will cause you harm. Serious harm. This is why we object to it.

Its like fishing lures. They are more about selling them to fisherman than attracting fish. Homeopathic cures give you a sense of control while your dog's natural healing process does the real work. You want to feel like you are doing something good for your friend. And homeopathic cures sell you that.

[DemExpat]

117. I use Homeopathy and medicine....

but it is quite revealing to me how my dog's natural healing processes (with deafness and epilepsy!) were not triggered with allopathic meds, while having dramatic and overwhelmingly positive healing triggers after Homeopathy. His hearing returned the next day, and epileptic fits were reduced from one fit every other day to one every 6-8 months or so. :kick:

I don't feel conned at all by Homeopathy for chronic conditions and for things that medicine doesn't offer any help for, or for when I want to avoid side-effects.

And I rely on conventional medicine for life-threatening health crises - which I think it excells in.

DemEx

[burythehatchet]

106. there's about 4 or 5 individuals who feel that its OK to berate

malign and be overall assholes on their jihad against anything that does not suit their sensibilities. They don't believe in homoepathy. But instead of just moving onto the next topic they feel its their obligation to piss on others. They are not interested in debate (because I certainly have tried that) they are interested in something else. I wish I could identify what it is because I'm curious as to what motivates their rabid behavior.

[Az]

116. Because it is dangerous

It creates added ignorance of science in a society already beset with misformed ideas about science. It creates reliance on something that repeatedly does not work. That reliance will come back to bite you or worse someone you love when something real happens.

It is a con and a lie. It is being spread and formented in our society. It is natural to despise such actions. It is because we are concerned for both you and the society that we rail against it.

Of course you are not going to agree with us. You have experienced its effectiveness. Or at least you believe you have. And there is nothing we really can tell you that will make you change your mind. But we can warn others and keep them from falling for the same trap you have. It would be inhumane of us not to.

Imagine if you will a person drinking poison. They drink it because they have been convinced it is a curative. We happen to know it is a poison. Would it be moral of us to stand by and watch as someone else is being tempted to drink the poison?

[DemExpat]

121. This strikes those of us with long term experience as funny,

although I do understand your concern for people getting conned - there are plenty of frauds everywhere.


But we can warn others and keep them from falling for the same trap you have. It would be inhumane of us not to.

Finding supportive health care along with discreet use of allopathic medicine keeping family and pets healthy and happy for years - repeatedly - is hardly a trap.

DemEx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

126. You still have ducked the issue of anecdotal versus empirical evidence.

Anecdotally, Kurt Vonnegut's smoking suggests we should all smoke.

Empirically and rationally, epidemiological and microbiological studies suggest nobody should smoke.

You've ducked the issue. Not much of a debate.

It would be inhumane to not warn people to not smoke.

So which is it? Anecdotal or empirical-rational?

Should people smoke or not?

[DemExpat]

129. I leave it to each individual to decide whether they smoke or not.

I stopped after 15 years because I felt it was extremely unhealthy for me.

Didn't realize this was a debate - I'm just talking and sharing what I have discovered.

DemEx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

123. I don't know who you are talking about. Explain how potentization works.

Potentization is at the heart of homeopathy. Explain how it works. Nobody can. Water does not have memory. The product is so diluted that not even one molecule of the original solution can remain. So explain how water cause the "cures".

We are in fact interested enough in debate that we've researched the topic so thoroughly that we even have to introduce the terminology and basic information into the debate on behalf of the homeopathic believers. In return, it seems all we get are anecdotal accounts.

Explain how potentization works and how it is not magic.

[burythehatchet]

130. I have done so in many earlier posts on identical threads

You head is thick.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

133. Point to one rather than attempt to insult me the way you object to others

[NNN0LHI]

67. Weren't ANY traditional meds for influenza or its complications in 1918

Antibiotics were not discovered until 10 years later. Was no flu vaccinations. I would say homeopathy or praying, or anything is probably at least as good as nothing.

Don

[Bernardo de La Paz]

78. Excellent point! The 84 year old study is still 84 years old!

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rainscents]

74. OK, I'll post it for you!

:-) Check it out... It's posted!

[beam me up scottie]

81. Aren't you the same person who said all vaccines are ineffective?

Yes, I believe you are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1828915&mesg_id=1835500

Prison Planet, eh?

I'll stick with the Lancet, if you don't mind.

[MrBenchley]

85. Faith-based pseudo-science...

There's a sucker born evey minute...don't be one of them.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. How'd homeopathy do preventing childhood polio vs. the Salk Vaccine?

Just wonderin'.

[jbnow]

93. How odd

the very negative responses. Did people search for double blind controlled studies before they call homeopathy a complete fraud?

If I were to choose a scam to get rich on it would not be homeopathic medicines. They cost next to nothing.

This reminds me of my (ex) neurologist when I talked to him about some alternative treatments and he immediately dismisses it as voodoo. Wouldn't waste his time looking at internet studies that try to scam people. If they were true they'd get FDA approval. Won't allow his patients to use them.
Yep, those nutty university sponsored studies trying to scam people into buying crazy things like Vitamin D3 or selenium or essential fatty acids or use Co-Q10 with statin drugs. Scam! Scam I tell you or they would spend millions to do FDA studies for things no one can patent or make any money on. Those crazy quacks.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. I don't dismiss ALL alternative treatments

some of them truly work, I believe.

But not all "alternative treatments" are created equal. EFAs, vitamins, certain herbal cures- those make logical sense.

However, a "medicine" containing a substance like duck liver, where the original substance has been diluted to the point where not a single molecule of the original material remains in the diluting water... when all is said and done, that 'medicine' is, I am afraid to break it to you, water.

To me, that sounds like bullshit-- and a scam.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Studies? You mean like this one :

Lancet study says homeopathic medicines don't work

25 Aug 2005 23:01:43 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Jeremy Lovell

LONDON, Aug 26 (Reuters) - The world may be beating a path to the doors of homeopathic practitioners as an alternative to conventional medicines, but according to a new study they may just as well be taking nothing.

The study, published in Friday's edition of the respected Lancet medical journal, is likely to anger the growing numbers of devoted practitioners of and adherents to alternative therapies that include homeopathy.

"There was weak evidence for a specific effect of homeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions," the study concluded.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L25117909.htm

And btw, your best bet for a scam WOULD be homeopathy.

You can charge whatever the market will bear for a bottle of tap water labeled "HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY".

[TheWraith]

95. In 1918, traditional medications were about as advanced as leeching.

I exaggerate... but not that much. In any event, a lot of claims are made about homeopathy, and basically none of them are proven. In fact, many of them play rather fast and loose with the truth. Modern medical science has its failures, and plenty of them, but on something like this, I'm trusting in the quarantine experts.

Oh, and as an aside, I'm pretty sure those numbers in the OP are BS.

[ErisFiveFingers]

100. Well...

I don't think the OP numbers are obviously total BS. Keep in mind that this is self-reporting, to doctors. In 1918.

So, people who were often *very* worried about their health could go to a doctor, get their "medicine" and go home. We didn't have the technology back then to differentiate between self-reporters who were *actually* sick with the flu, and those who were not, but had a cold, or a bad diet, or a bad meal, or mental issues, or whatever.

As far as leeching goes, it is still used, as are some homeopathic principles (like cures like) in allopathic medicine... but I remain convinced that both double-blind, *and* proof of mechanism, should be the standards before selling the public on any medical technique.

[pola]

109. Will respond tonight when I return from a workshop I am attending

Have a great day.
Some of you may know alot about science, but it is clear that you do not understand what homeopathy is or how it works.
I will find a homeopathic doctor who can explain it to you better than I can.
This could take a few days, but I will find one.
Take care,
Pola

[bread_and_roses]

111. Faith-Based Medicine is as dangerous as Faith-Based Education...or more so

And I applaud every poster here who is pointing that out.

It is as dangerous and cruel to promote homeopathy for acute/life threatening illness as promoting that jesus will cure appendicitis. The nut cases who allow their children to die in agony while praying for a cure from jesus "believe" in the face of evidence too. Their belief doesn't save their children from one minute of dreadful suffering or from death.

Conflating the profiteering of Drug Companies with the outcomes of scientific research as if the two arose from the same methodology and had equal validity is a false premise.

Homeopathy, with its' claims to cure, is is a different order of "alternative" medicine than herbs, nutrition, etc., that promote enhancing "wellness." It is a scam, pure and simple, a fraud, and has far more in common with those profiteering Drug Companies than it does with medical research.

[Celebration]

112. the "gold standard" of medical studies

Is the randomized, double blind, placebo controlled, crossover study.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16047154&query_hl=2

Eur J Pediatr. 2005 Jul 27;

Homeopathic treatment of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial.

.......................

Conclusion:The trial suggests scientific evidence of the effectiveness of homeopathy in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, particularly in the areas of behavioural and cognitive functions.

PMID: 16047154

[BiggJawn]

118. But of COURSE!

They've got it, by jinkees!

"The Water REMEMBERS", therefore, what you're drinking NOW was probably pissed out by a Flu victim back in 1918, so if you drink it now, you're getting an effective "killed virus" preventative....

But ONLY if you hang a bamboo flute on a red ribbon over your bed, which is facing south, and have a mirror behind your stove burners, to double your wealth....


"Do you suppose this water remembers passing through Rasputin?"

[Fountain79]

128. The fact that this is from a website promoting homeopathy...

causes reason for concern. Do you have any evidence from a more neutral source?

[norml]

134. In other words, leaving people alone worked better than traditional meds.

That's why I don't take any of that over the counter stuff.

Drinking fluids and getting rest are really the only things you can do for the flu.

Meds just treat the symptoms, and probably make you sicker in the long run.

Although for treating the flu it won't hurt you it's better not to waste your money on Homeopathy either.

[Skinner]

136. Locking

This is not appropriate material for the General Discussion forum.