PETA: Is J. Crew selling you fur made from dogs and cats?

[Karmadillo]

http://www.jcruel.com/catdogfur.asp

"Man's best friend" killed for fur? No, it's not just a bad dream. PETA recently conducted an undercover investigation into the Chinese dog and cat fur trade to show you what the industry is so desperate to hide. Even our veteran investigators were horrified at what they found: Millions of dogs and cats in China are being bludgeoned, hanged, bled to death, and strangled with wire nooses so that their fur can be turned into trim and trinkets. This fur is often deliberately mislabeled as fur from other species and is exported to the United States to be sold to unsuspecting customers in retail stores.

All of J.Crew's fur is imported from China, which means that shopping there potentially supports the hideously cruel dog and cat fur industry. PETA has pleaded to meet with J.Crew CEO Millard Drexler, begging him to consider the plight of animals being tortured and killed in unthinkable ways overseas; yet our pleas, and the animals' cries, have met with silence and inaction. The bottom line is, because dog and cat fur is so often mislabeled, if you're buying fur from J.Crew or from any other retailer, there's no way to tell whose skin you're wearing.

Inside a Chinese Animal Market

Dogs killed for their fur, which is often mislabeled before being sent to other countries for sale as trim on jackets
PETA went into an animal market in Southern China and found cats and dogs languishing in tiny cages, visibly exhausted. Some had been on the road for days, transported in flimsy wire-mesh cages with no food or water. Twenty cats were forced into a single cage. Because of the cross-country transport in such deplorable conditions, our investigators saw dead cats on top of the cages, dying cats and dogs inside the cages, and dogs and cats with open wounds. Some animals were lethargic or frightened, and others were fighting with each other, driven insane from confinement and exposure.

Up to 8,000 animals are loaded onto each truck, with cages stacked one on top of the other. Cages containing live animals are commonly tossed from the top of the trucks onto the ground 10 feet below, shattering the legs of the animals inside them. Many of the animals we saw still had collars on, a sign that they were someone's beloved companions, stolen to be made into fur coats.

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[Lerkfish]

1. dunno why different cultures call the same animal "pet" or "meat".

but fur is fur. If it was a tiger, it would still be fur taken without the owner's consent.
Why is it any worse for spot or fluffy to be killed than a majestic Leopard or wolf?

I swear I don't get humans, sometimes.

[MildyRules]

6. Agree, fur is fur.

Killing one animal for its fur is just as bad as killing any other. Get over it. Anyway, I'd rather some poodle get killed for its fur than say a leopard.

[AZBlue]

15. Why is ok to kill either the poddle or the leopard?

You said "killing one animal for its fur is just as bad as killing any other" - is it or isn't it?

[MildyRules]

24. It is

I just prefer leopards to some slobbering dog.

[Lerkfish]

34. from a purely pragmatic view: leopards are more rare, dogs plentiful.

if fecundity were a factor, we'd use up what is more available.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllyCat]

10. I don't think the comment is that this is somehow worse than any other

animal...it's the treatment of them before they are killed for something so stupid as trim on a cheap and probably hideous garment.

[Lerkfish]

33. I was just musing aloud, not targeting any post in particular.

sorry if it appeared differently. I truly am intrigued how culture determines what's ok to eat and what is not.

In India: don't eat cows, they are sacred.
In US: eat cows, make pets of dogs.
In Thailand, eat dogs, make pets of pigs.
Dolphin-safe tuna does not spare the tuna...

see? its just an intriguing SELECTIVE cultural more on what is consumable and what is not.

[AllyCat]

53. Look at horsemeat...we are trying like mad to get the horsemeat

industry stopped in this country. Of course, they eat it in France, Belgium, and Japan (where most of ours goes now that doesn't go for...PET food). I cannot imagine eating a horse! Or a dog or cat. Or wearing them. The only leather I buy is for shoes and even that I have a hard time doing.

Actually, I can't imagine eating any animal so I became a vegetarian about 20 years ago. I'm not the usual PETA supporting type as I don't like their stance on animal companions, and some other things. But this really grossed me out.

Your post is interesting about what is acceptable and what is not for food. I see your point.

[expatriot]

51. its all about what you allow into your "circle of compassion"

With your pets, you cannot deny that they experience emotions of happiness, fear, sadness, joy and you develop AFFECTION for them and COMPASSION. People are taught to EXCLUDE other animals from that same circle of compassion, that while some animals are "friends" others are merely economic commodities. People don't like their friends being used as economic units with no consideration towards their suffering.

http://www.furisdead.com/feat/ChineseFurFarms/

[Lerkfish]

71. why is a dog more worthy of love than a leopard?

The good lord created both.
The only difference is in the heart of the beholder.
Yes, you are correct about the circle of compassion.

My point only is that that circle is determined by culture.
And, it is variable from culture to culture.

I just find it interesting.

People are outraged if a dog is mistreated, and don't bat an eye if a horse is. or insert various animals in and out of that statement.

Abused children, for example, does not have a PETA group behind ending their abuse.


its a complex issue of differing criteria for what determines what pulls whose heartstrings.

I stand above it and muse at its arbitrariness. Deer are beautiful creatures, but I can kill a certain amount of them if I want. If more, I have broken a law. Dogs I cannot kill at all or face serious consequences. I can, however, raise an endless supply of chickens and cows and pigs and slaughter them daily in any sort of barbaric fashion. But because they are considered "food", that is not illegal.

[expatriot]

78. no, i agree... I am just talking about people's perceptions.

what people are taught and socially indoctrinated to feel. People need to make the connection and stories like this help people make that connection, especially when confronted with the breaks in their logic as you have done. kudos.

[satireV]

76. Actually you CAN logically deny it.

That's an issue it appears with many here. When it comes to guns, animal rights, or smoking tobacco, suddenly they act like George Bush and react with emotions rather than with logic and science.

Pets cannot be conclusively shown to have emotions like happiness, joy or love.

Think about it a second. How does one claim a pet like a cat or dog has those high level emotions other than by personification.

You sure can't talk to them and ask them like you can humans.

satireV

[freeplessinseattle]

93. how do we know humans have emotions?

seriously, how?

if you look at animal's face you will see expressions, if you hear cries of fear or pain it is unmistakable.

people might think they feel certain things bc they are taught that, but it might very well be a physical response, many cultures somatasize their emotions. counselors can find it difficult to pin down feelings of sadness, grief, fear, anger, etc. some people feel a "heaviness" but are at a loss to describe the emotional feeling.
some people think they know what love is but have no clue. we all know people like that. how many people mistake lust for love? is lust an emotional feeling or physical?

[mimitabby]

92. killing leopards and wolves for fur is wrong too

I can see humanely raising rabbits and minks for fur
but even that's a stretch.
leopards are endangered!
let's face it, most americans
blanch at the idea of wearing fido's skin around their necks.

[MADem]

2. It ain't just them, it's WALMART and a zillion others

That shit ain't rabbit fur...it's Fluffy and Fido.

I myself go with the fleece of polar bears...POLAR FLEECE!! Keeps you warm as toast, lightweight, easy to wash. And no polar bears have to die to keep me warm!

[LittleClarkie]

5. I go with turtle skin, meself

Besides, they're easier to catch.

[Botany]

3. I was wondering why I have been using a litter box. thanx

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

4. Fox News/Pat Robertson tactics are used by PETA fanatics here.

Asking a question they don't even know the answer to is similiar to the Fox News tendency to preface a question with "some people say <insert rumor here>" or the tendency for Pat Robertson to spread conspiracy theories by asking way-out questions like "could it be that <insert conspiracy theory here>".

And no, I am not being inflammatory, because when they use manipulative tactics like that, I call that fanaticism.

[Coexist]

9. Did you watch the video of the cats being skinned, LoZoccolo?

it was real.

[AllyCat]

11. Can't do it. I believe you. nt

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coexist]

18. My point is/was:

there were crates of animals brought to a facility and skinned - the proof is on the video. It is not a rumor. That practice happens in China, obviously.

So how do you know if any of the fur trim on any clothes/accessories that come from China is rabbit, as opposed to dog or cat. It is not a rumor if there is video of the facility.

[LoZoccolo]

23. It is a rumor that J. Crew is selling you cat and dog fur.

Any muddying of the connection between what happens in China and what gets delivered to you when you shop at J. Crew is a fanatical and manipulative tactic.

[Karmadillo]

25. Not a rumor. It's a legitimate question.

Dogs and cats are skinned for fur in China. That fur has been found in the US on products sold by Burlington Coat Factory and Hallmark. Was it marked as dog and cat fur? Nope. Is the J. Crew fur purchased in China free of dog and cat fur? How do we know? Or are we supposed to take your word for it?

[LoZoccolo]

36. People can ask any question they want.

Did you know that John McCain sired a black child out of wedlock? That was one that some push-pollers asked people in South Carolina before the Republican primaries there. And yet it was asked to spread a rumor.

[Karmadillo]

38. And you think claiming John McCain sired a black child out of wedlock was

a legitimate question? Shame on you.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Don't change the subject and race-bait.

Can animal rights activists do anything without transparent cheating?

[Karmadillo]

43. The lengths some people will go to try to shut animal rights threads down

Wow.

[LoZoccolo]

44. I'm not the one using dirty tactics. n/t

[Karmadillo]

52. If attempting to equate a legitimate question with a racist smear isn't

a dirty tactic, I guess I agree with you. I'm just not sure you're definition of dirty tactic is all that accurate.

[LoZoccolo]

61. Nope. n/t

[Coexist]

26. but does J. Crew purchased fur-trimmed items from China?

You get pulled into actions like sweat-shop boycotts because you choose to do business with those who have a history of doing wrong.

It is a bit of a time-bomb. According to the link below for Heather Mills-McCartney's website - there has been a huge push to ban this stuff - this is not new and J. Crew could have chosen to not buy fur items from China to circumvent the possibility of this publicity.

[LoZoccolo]

37. Probably.

Would you want a muddy accusation of this nature thrown at you?

Probably not.

[Coexist]

48. But if I purchase something from a questionable source

I open myself up to being questioned also.

[LoZoccolo]

49. I would think the same would apply to questionable information sources.

As in, PETA used this manipulative tactic in it's rhetoric, which would call everything, even the footage, into question.

[Coexist]

60. but in this case, they have video of the practice.

so I choose to believe it is occuring. Did you watch the video?

[LoZoccolo]

63. They have video of skinning cats.

Yes, they eat cats in some Asian countries. This is nothing new.

[Coexist]

65. and of the cat fur stretched out on racks to dry

they are curing it for a reason - to sell as fur.

[LoZoccolo]

68. Well, yeah.

And people wear leather from cows.

[Coexist]

72. most of the masses don't keep cows as pets.

therefore it is an emotional issue for most Americans to wear what they think is rabbit fur - and would be pissed if they found out it is not - when they have a beloved dog or cat at home.

[LoZoccolo]

73. Oh, so it's all about emotion.

I told you they were manipulative.

[Coexist]

74. oh please.

who is twisting things now. I am done with this discussion.

[flvegan]

31. I guess that the BBC fell for it too, then:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3009537.stm

Main exporter: China
12 to 15 adult dogs needed to make a dog fur coat
Up to 24 cats needed for cat fur coat
Cat and dog fur also used in hats, gloves, shoes, blankets, stuffed animals and toys
Dog fur sometimes labelled as: Gae-wolf, sobaki, Asian jackal, goupee, loup d'Asie, Corsac fox, dogues du Chine, or simply fake or exotic fur
Cat fur sometimes labelled as: house cat, wild cat, katzenfelle, rabbit, goyangi, mountain cat

[LoZoccolo]

39. The BBC article makes no mention of J. Crew.

You are either deliberately skirting my point, or don't know it. In either case, don't return to this conversation until you can explain it to my satisfaction.

[flvegan]

56. Easy enough to connect the dots.

And when this board belongs to you, I'll obey your demand. Don't like it, put me on ignore.

Bye.

[LoZoccolo]

62. I don't have to own the board...

...to manage who is wasting my time and who is not.

[flvegan]

66. Okay,

manage it by using the Ignore feature, or your own abilities. DON'T tell me what conversation I can be in on. You stop replying, it stops being a conversation, get it?

[LoZoccolo]

69. I'm not telling you what conversation you can be in on.

I'm telling you what conversation I will pay attention to.

[flvegan]

79. Your post, #40 in this thread

And I quote:
" In either case, don't return to this conversation until you can explain it to my satisfaction."

[LoZoccolo]

82. Right.

I'm giving you advice about how to increase your chances of being listened to.

[flvegan]

86. Strawman response. Yawn.

You said what you said, now you try to deny it. I'm reminded of a certain group of folks that do this a lot...can't quite place it...

[LoZoccolo]

90. Right I said what I said.

What, did you think that I thought that I had some sort of authority to ban you from replying until I saw fit? Of course not. What did you think I was saying?

[meow2u3]

47. The only cat fur I want is on a live kitty!

All others will be rejected.

I never liked the idea of a Maine coon skin hat...or giving a new meaning to "Persian rug."

[Karmadillo]

29. What part of the posted article do you find inaccurate?

nt

[LoZoccolo]

41. The implication that J. Crew sells cat fur. n/t

[Karmadillo]

45. Why?

They buy fur from China. That fur has been mislabeled and sold in the United States. How do we know the J Crew fur is not similarly mislabled? If you know, please tell us. A link or two would help.

[LoZoccolo]

46. I don't have to prove a negative charge against J. Crew. n/t

[Karmadillo]

50. What charge are you talking about?

nt

[LoZoccolo]

59. The implication that J. Crew sells cat fur. n/t

[AZBlue]

67. Let's say fur going to JCrew isn't from cats/dogs, it's still from China &

therefore supports the Chinese fur industry, which indisputably does kill cats/dogs.

[LoZoccolo]

70. Most people wouldn't care.

Trying to get them to by getting them to acqueisce to tenuous connections is unlikely to compel them to, as well.

[AZBlue]

75. Don't know that it's "most" - some obviously don't but anti-fur is growing

And, this is about cats and dogs and many will think of their pets when they hear this, so this will also affect some who might wear a mink or rabbit, but won't wear the family puppy. Plus, the connection isn't tenuous - it's there.

[LoZoccolo]

77. PETA thinks my grandma should have died.

She has a pig valve replacement for her mitral valve. That connection isn't tenuous - it's there. Also, Animal Liberation Front is a terrorist organization. That connection isn't tenuous - it's there.

[flvegan]

80. Where exactly did PETA state that. Or, are you inferring.

And you and that whole ALF-PETA terrorist (right wing talking point, ahem) thing...

[LoZoccolo]

81. They don't believe in animal research and stuff.

Also, ALF and PETA are both in the business of animal rights activism. Supporting one means you support the whole industry.

[AZBlue]

85. So if I support the political activism industry, then I must

automatically be a fan of the GOP?

Supporting the retail industry means I shop at Wal-Mart?

Supporting the news media industry means I watch Fox News?

I could go on, but obviously supporting one DOES NOT mean you support the whole industry - no matter what industry it is.

[flvegan]

87. Then you're implying that I wanted your Grandma to die too

Incredible.

So, you being here, means you support the whole political industry, by that same mindthink.

How is Halliburton these days?

[LoZoccolo]

91. My argument was not serious.

It was an analogy to the accusations made against J. Crew due to their purchasing fur from China. The reasoning is parallel, and, ridiculous.

[AZBlue]

83. What on earth does that have to do w/the connection between JCrew

supporting the Chinese fur trade and the Chinese fur trade killing cats and dogs?

Nothing at all.

Trying to change the subject when you don't have a response to the original conversation is also a bit manipulative, to use your own description.

[LoZoccolo]

84. There IS a connection!

Just like there is a connection between the Chinese fur industry and J. Crew!

[AZBlue]

88. If there's a connection, please explain it to me.

That is a connection between the JCrew/Chinese fur trade discussion and your comments on PETA, etc. Other than the obvious connections that (1) they appeared on DU or (2) they have to do with animals.

[ErisFiveFingers]

99. Why would a Wookie live on Endor?

So, the way I understand this so far:
1. J. Crew has started selling items with fur. This has (quite reasonably, based on their goals) upset PETA.
2. PETA has offered evidence that the Chinese fur trade often uses domesticated animals for fur.
3. PETA has offered *no* evidence, at all, that the J.Crew items being sold are actually using fur from domesticated animals.
4. However, PETA is *implying* that J.Crew is using domesticated animals, without offering any form of viable proof of such.

Is that about right?

These PETA threads get a tad confusing. For me, it's an easy issue: J.Crew is a mass-marketed corporate mall store, therefore, I don't buy their stuff.

[zanne]

89. Oh No! I'm a "terrist"! n./t

[AZBlue]

30. I agree with your comments on manipulative statements, but there are facts

...and video here. It's not conjecture, there's proof in this instance.

[AllyCat]

7. What is the matter with people? I realize there are different customs

in different countries, but how on earth could anyone treat a living creature that way?

I hope people realize what a monster "Chinese-made" is. We do horrible things here in this country too, but to outsource to a place like China (or just about anywhere in the pacific rim) just to save money is unethical and degrading to the people who work there and obviously cruel to the poor animals stuck in our unending quest for cheap crap.

Poor things!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

8. One more reason to be glad...

the only fur I wear is strictly "faux" -- the more lurid, the better. :)

It's my greatest hope that we as a species finally let go of all this old, sad crap and evolve.

[madrchsod]

12. i saw the cat fur crap in walmart several years ago

some group in california nailed them on it...so sorry, we "didn`t know"

[RebelOne]

14. Harrod's in London and Burlington Coat Factory just started

selling fur recently. And Burlington is selling garments trimmed with dog and cat fur.

[Coexist]

19. is it labeled as dog fur?

[txaslftist]

16. Can't say it bothers me...

...the Chinese eat dog. Skinning them beforehand just makes sense.

What bothers me is the fact that the Chinese execute 3000 people annually, make the family pay for the bullet and sell the organs to rich Americans for transplant.

Animals is animals. Gotta get a burger.

[expatriot]

42. watch this video

http://www.furisdead.com/feat/ChineseFurFarms/

watch the video link they have, about two minutes into it it gets really "good."

[tatertop]

17. Wool, maybe. Alpaca or Lama hair, fine. Fur, never.

[AZBlue]

21. Wool is not cruelty-free - it's a common misconception that it is -

For more info check out savethesheep.com

[tatertop]

27. It can be cruelty free and some are working toward that goal

albeit very slowly.

[Catchawave]

20. Heather Mills McCartney website:

***WARNING: contains graphic photos you may find very disturbing****

http://www.heathermillsmccartney.com/dogcatfur.php

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Wouldn't this be easy to figure out

with dna tests and stuff like that?

[Igel]

28. Probably wouldn't even need that.

Hair from different species is often structurally different.

[Igel]

32. And lots of people will read that and conclude

that they've actually read a claim that Crew is selling cat/dog fur.

Ask question. Provide evidence that it might be happening with some brands. Ask question again about specific brand.

What thinking person would fail to conclude the obvious: that specific brand is selling cat/dog fur?

All of the thinking people, that's who.

[expatriot]

54. compassion starts at home...

find the most compassionate alternative to everything you purchase. teach compassion, breathe compassion, spread compassion.

buy fair trade, union, ecologically-friendly AND vegan products.

[blindpig]

55. useless killing

Killing for food is part of the circle of life. Killing animals for an unnecessary commodity is disrespectful. In this age fur is a bourgeois affectation. As we disrespect animals we disrespect the animals which we are. It is part of our sickness.

The way we raise our meat animals is also grotesquely disrespectful. I would happily pay 2-3 times as much for the meat that I eat if humanely raised meat were available where I live. As it is I pay 3 times as much for eggs from free range chickens.

[flvegan]

57. They sell guanaco, too (listed on the CITES II Schedule)

They should look into gopher tortoise handbags as well, maybe.

[spunky]

58. I have to question everything that comes out of PETA these days

and its sad. I've been a vegetarian for 10 years, and I used to support PETA, but I have to agree with some others in this thread who have said this is an unfair charge. Unless they can prove JCrew is using cat/dog fur (intentionally or unintentionally) they should just not bring it up.

Besides, isn't it bad enough that they sell fur PERIOD? Who gives a damn what animal they killed to get it. It was a cute little critter, now its a fashion statement.

And if I may be cynical for a moment, PETA is only doing this because they know most Americans won't care about the fur of other animals, but tell them Spot and Fluffy are being made into coats and they'll get angry because we anthropomorphise cats and dogs more than other animals. Its just another stunt by a group more interested in shock value than substance. EDIT: And who do more harm than good to the animal rights movement by making us look like wackos.

[flvegan]

64. Some of what you said isn't true.

PETA is doing this to draw attention to the fur trade, and to push the fur issue with J.Crew specifically.

Part of the fur trade is the brutality inflicted on dogs and cats. China being the main culprit of these exports, and being a major supplier to J.Crew, PETA draws that conclusion and runs with it. BTW, JCrew has yet to deny the charges, from what I've seen.

I think that if you peruse the website in question, you'll see a great deal of substance, though it may, as you suggested, only draw one in if they are suspect to JCrew's fur animals.

[MoonRiver]

94. There was a MSM documentary about this years ago re: another store

Can't remember the entire name, but it started with "Coats..."
I saw the dogs and cats being killed for their fur. It was HORRIFIC. I would not doubt that this is going on again (if it ever stopped. Although there was a huge outcry that negatively impacted the store. Wish I could remember the name :(). After all we now have a totally corrupt adm. that imposes ZERO regulations against companies which exploit animals AND/OR humans. Be afraid. Be very afraid. And NEVER buy fur.

[nicknameless]

95. Horrible.

Sad spectacle of some devout animal haters on DU too.

[Opusnone]

96. Here, here.

I have said it before. I do not trust anyone who does not like dogs. Period. (And I don't mean "like" as in their flavor).

[PinkyisBlue]

97. PETA

As a PETA supporter, I applaud their tenacious stance in supporting the ethical treatment and rights of animals, ALL animals (not just the cute, cuddly cats and dogs).

I don't know about ALF, but I do know the primary goal of PETA is for the humane treatment of animals. To accomplish this goal, PETA investigators sometimes work undercover to find and expose instances of illegal and unethical treatment of animals (like in a lab that conducts animal experiments). Once animal abuse is documented, PETA takes legal action to force the abuser to comply with the appropriate standards of care and treatment. And PETA does a lot to educate people about mistreatment and abuse of animals. I admit that some of its campaigns are a little extreme; however, they do get people focused on the issue, and that's the whole point.

Corporate America puts out a lot of misinformation about PETA because this group is a thorn in its side. It costs a lot more money to conduct animal experiments or to raise farm animals in a humane way, ncluding clean cages, well-fed animals, and proper veterinary care; some companies would rather treat animals as mere commodities. PETA has exposed horrendous abuses of animals in some of its undercover operations. Many of the abuses stem from attempts to save money by withholding appropriate care of the animals.

It sounds like there are some corporate shills on this thread. Why should a company have to obey environmental or animal treatment regulations? It takes away from the corporation's profits, after all. Well, it's because rules and regulations are established for the public good and because we, as humans, are supposed to be better than the ones "below" us. Animals are not just property but are living, feeling creatures with rights (not enough, I'll admit) of their own.

The poster on this thread who wrote about PETA's objections to his grandmother's pig valve is wrong. It is my understanding that PETA doesn't object to necessary animal research but only to redundant, unnecessary research (which a lot of research studies using animal subjects are, sadly). You should know your facts if you're planning to critique an organization. Any violent acts committed by animal rights activists are not condoned or encouraged by PETA.

And one more statement I want to make and explain is this, which has been misinterpreted by corporate elitists and others: A boy is a dog is a rat (or something similar). This means that humans and non-humans alike are living beings and have certain basic rights. It doesn't mean that a rat's life is equal to that of a boy's life. If you think about it, the whole philosophy behind PETA is the philosophy I see being trumpeted here on DU: to treat others respectfully, fairly and humanely.

[girl gone mad]

98. I recently bought a couple of thongs from JCrew...

over the internet. I received them in the mail last week, along with a catalog. When I looked through the catalog, I saw that they were selling a jacket with coyote fur trim.

That disturbed me so much that I immediately returned the items I had purchased.

There is a pack of coyotes that lives near me. I often see them running through the fields surrounding my home. They are beautiful and playful, as intelligent as any pack animals I've encountered. While there may be justifiable reasons to kill a coyote, using its fur as trim for a little pink sweater just doesn't strike me as one of them.

[ErisFiveFingers]

100. I've gotten to know a few coyotes over the years...

And hunting them for fur seems bizarre to me. They're smarter than most other animals I've known.