Are you radical yet? (late nite rant)

[jokerman93]

DUer, Ulysses started a thread called "am I an extremist" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4963456
(Great post by the way.)

It got me thinking about the irony of what's happened to America on a lot of levels under the glamorous spell of Karl Rove and the Neocon regime. It's ironic that a person these days who values the common sense principles honored by any civilized Human society would be considered extremist. Believing in the functional foundations of vital communities, thriving cultures and tolerant civil societies is extreme? Yeah, maybe for some doomed little tribe of Murkan hyenas. Even more than ironic it's grotesque.

Ha! Dubya's entirely fictional and vulgar "Murika" and the under educated people identify with it represent the new century's aesthetic: American Grotesque! Anti-civilization un-lead by anti-leadership all under the militaristic aegis of an anti-pentagon and the watchful eye of an anti-security apparatus.

:think: mmm...

If I was a religionist in any noticeable way, I'd probably be thinking this is some very nasty shit we've got coming down on us here.

As far as politics, I've actually never really considered myself a "liberal" or even a "Democrat" in any definitive way. It was more vague than that -- generally leftist with socialist leanings I guess. I also happen to believe in things like beauty, compassion, creativity, imagination, dignity, cooperation, justice, sustainability, strength in diversity, futurist planning, respect for individual perspectives, and Peace with a capital "P". To me they're a subset of values we'd choose for the future of our America. You know, the America we have no choice now but to consciously choose and build from the rubble of the Bush empire...

That America.

:patriot:

I believe "We the People" really need some kind of a large project - like a populist Manhattan project or a NASA Apollo moon program - but this would be first to find ingenious new ways to take back the power to frame the debate. Hey, the Necessity is the mother of invention, right? And while we're at it, we need to intentionally choose the highest values we can imagine and manifest for our newly envisioned America.

We need to take back the choice of what course we take as nation and a people. :-) Yeah! We need a project like Noah had! A large foolish project! America needs an Ark! One built from the ground up, designed to carry the consciousness of this country to its excellent potential and try to undo this terrible mark on our history.

:mad:

In the twenty-first century where the world is constructed out of words and images for mass consumption, the bloodless revolution is the revolution of the re-framed and manifested reality of an America and world that WE choose.

As far as building a humane world society, I'd say we're running on all engines in the wrong direction these days -- and who that is not asleep can argue that time isn't short?

So maybe these "extremes" of the so called left are reasonable and necessary values for a species of talking monkeys who must aspire to their HUmanity or perish -- and to establish finally a humane civilization on our little planet.

Arguments against: Can't be done? Unlike any other, human nature is self-destructive and ignorant of itself and therefor we live in the best of all possible worlds? It's not the way the universe works? I've noticed people who talk like that enjoy yamering about excellence and impacting reality -- buy only for personal gain. They never put up. I call that status quo apologist bullshit. I say we can take countrol and change the outcome. I say there are a thousand ways this can play out that we' haven't even thought of yet, and this country will rise from the ashes.

So call me liberal. Call me hopeful. Call me irresponsible... But PLEEEZ don't call me "terrorized". 'Cuz buddy, i'm not even impressed, let alone afraid.

:silly:

Guess like a lot of people, I like to take my positions on a case by case basis -- using whatever sense of "the bigger picture" I can get from available facts. Always felt marginally represented in the public discourse though - just off-mainstream I guess, but not extremely far off. These days though where I stand politically seems to keep magically "shifting leftward" by the sheer force and volume of RW bullshit. What they do fits the definition of sorcery in a way when you think of it! lol. Hell, at least now I know there's really an enemy and it's time to face that fact.

That's a good thing, I guess...

:shrug:

Obvious isn't it? The re-framing of "liberal" as a form of marginal extremism is all about how the RW controls the the public ethos by skillful and unethical manipulation of imagery and language. With the news media and complicit corporate advertisers, they conjure up an illusion of mainstream consensus that has the fringe freekazoids thinking Bush is an American God and it's their world now. It must be demoralizing for anyone who still believes there's more of them than there are of us but it ain't true, darlin'. Twern't never true neither! Have a beer.

:beer:

Under the sway of Karl Rove's switches, levers and psychedelic neckties, I've now not only somehow shifted to the extreme left without having to lift an ideological finger, I've become a true radical insofar as I now believe the underpinnings of our entire system in this country is broken and corrupt.

:banghead:

We need to go at it from all angles. We need to throw the bastards out at the top. We need to tell the media to tell the truth or become irrelevent! And we need to transform American common culture - not pop culture, not ethnic or religious culture. We need to use the connective tissue of common American culture by using it somehow as a mechanism to convey change the way American's treat one another. We can't be defeated if we find the common thread we share as Americans and make that the strong basis of our union as a movement. We have the capacity and the will - but how do we do all this? Or, is it being done already? Who's attempting this? In times of uparraleled trouble, how do diverse voices come together to overcome?

So I'm a radical. I like to ask strange questions like "How do We the People take our America back and reinvent it in the process?" Why should anyone mind asking ordinary questions and expecting extraordinary answers? That's what free people do.

I say, if you can't or won't fight the system with regulated politics, through the public media or by means of violence (remember they WANT civil conflict to erupt - they're banking and betting on it), then it's high time for We the People to invent a new form of radical activism that is both legal and unstoppable, using the knowledge, technology and wisdom at hand. Like Judo, there's always a way for a smaller fighter to position himself far enough outside the oponent's center of gravity that power and force switches to an advantage for the one who pivots first. I have a confidence which amounts to faith though, that there are folks out there who have enough depth, scope of knowlege and skill to propose some radical approaches that could be worth taking a risk for. I always think of Cornell West when I start thinking along these lines. Don't know why, maybe he's just a good example of the kind of quality thinkers one finds on the left. At any rate, I've decided to operate from a frame of mind where the only legitimate America is the America that IS still a free country, and I assume we have many opportunities and choices yet to even begin to imagine or consider. :-)

:headbang:

Radical. I'm starting to think that change will be dificult if pursued only at the political level. Although competent and progressive leadership is critically needed, we're going to need to hit it on other fronts too. For my money, a revolution of civil society is on the menu. A cultural revolution, if you will, has to happen for us to pull us up out of this slide to the bottom we're in. It starts with how Americans treat with eachother. Fairness, civility, openness, tolerance, watching out for the other guy; traditional American values. Small things first. I hesitate to call it a "spiritual" change though, because unfortunately, religion has been co-opted in the public debate by philosophical institutionalists, businessmen and posturing neocon fascists.

Personally I think organized religion is anachronistic in a world where we're exposed to so much diversity every day. If we are to be a nation with any kind of soul we need to get far past the use of religion, race, sexuality and fear as traditional weapons of power structures. We do need to somehow move the public conscience torward the values that honor and nurture the astounding potential of our common HUmanity. (I'd include liberal values in there somewhere wouldn't you?)

O8)

Hey, I'd take it even further too. If we are to envision and choose a path toward the kind of world we most want to inhabit, learn, and unfold through life in, we need to set the bar much higher. We need to reach out to each other. We need teach our children and each other. We need to have intelligent, speculative conversations about all the possibilities, opportunities and choices we have before us as a nation; the rich resources we have; the genius of many individuals and subcultures of vastly different perspective and knowlege. Personally, I imagine an American society where that genius and promise of our common humanity is what we educate and bring about in action for all people.

So I'm a Radical. But am I an extremist???

:evilgrin:

:patriot:
citizen J

[McKenzie]

1. ain't had time to digest it all friend

all I'll say is this>>> long, thought provoking posts such as this one are good brain food; they make us REALLY think.

From the snippets I have taken in I think I might have found a kindred spirit (sorry if that sounds a tad sycophantic - not intended as such). I'm going to save your post as an .html file and read it this evening.

Thnx 4 taking the time and trouble to post the sort of material I can read and then think about.

[jokerman93]

5. Hi McKenzie

I'm sure we are kindred. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

:toast:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I, too, need more time to really give this post the thought it

deserves, but one thing stands out to me. Even though I always vote Democratic, I have always considered myself rather conversative. I celebrate things like social and fiscal responsibility, minding my own business, dignity, thrift, treading lightly on the earth, self-sufficiency, creativity, love...

And suddenly here I am at home with a bunch of left wing moonbats at DU! I haven't moved left! I am the same person I ever was! My government has moved away from me!

For the first time I envision a world where the military could show up at my front door and take my grandchild away because he has a fever.. or keep me from my house after a disaster... or allow me to die of thirst when the water is around the corner... or take away my house and land to put a new Walmart up on it.

You know, I wish that GWB WAS whom he pretends to be. It would be great to have an all apple pie American who speaks plainly and sees a vision and goes for it. But that man is a fantasy. A product. These folks have taken the worst tragedy ever on American soil and made us hostages of it. We see terrorism around every corner and in every baby buggy. I know there are people who hate us..I know there is a cultural war going on, but let's fight it with common sense. I'm tired of being afraid.

[jokerman93]

7. Yeah, self-labeling is a drag

You said:
"And suddenly here I am at home with a bunch of left wing moonbats at DU! I haven't moved left! I am the same person I ever was! My government has moved away from me!"

And I laughed!

And Shakespeare said:

Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows.
~"The Tempest"

I think that would go for TallahasseeGrannies too, I think! :hi:

Then you said:
"You know, I wish that GWB WAS whom he pretends to be. It would be great to have an all apple pie American who speaks plainly and sees a vision and goes for it. But that man is a fantasy. A product. These folks have taken the worst tragedy ever on American soil and made us hostages of it. We see terrorism around every corner and in every baby buggy. I know there are people who hate us..I know there is a cultural war going on, but let's fight it with common sense. I'm tired of being afraid."

I reply:
Couldn't agreer with you more here. They've been using us to wipe their butts and fill their coffers for five years now. I was for scared for about a week after 9/11 and then with the build up to the Iraq invasion. I never saw them as legitimate. I've opposed them vehemently since.

Thanks for responding! :-)

[Arkansas Granny]

3. You've given us a lot of food for thought. I've never considered

myself to be extreme anything. Some of my opinions are quite conservative, truth be told, while others are more liberal. I'm not that concerned about labels, but does that make me a moderate?

As polarized as the right and left are these days, there doesn't seem to be any room for discussion of ways to bring us any closer together. Compromise is considered a dirty word. No one wants to give on anything. Battle lines are drawn. Those who reach out to the other side are often called traitors. There must be some common ground where we can at least feel like we are in the same discussion.

Our current administration has encouraged this divide by pandering to the wishes of the very vocal right wing extremists that make up their base. It's easier to get your agenda accomplished if you can divide people on the issues and then demonize the opposition.

If something is not done to heal this breach, we will, in the end, destroy ourselves from internal strife, not from external forces.

Does the mean that the terrorists win?

[jokerman93]

9. so far, whoever did 9/11 is winning

If something is not done to heal this breach, we will, in the end, destroy ourselves from internal strife, not from external forces.

Does the mean that the terrorists win?

I think it would mean that no one wins. So we do need to find new non-political ways to to reach out to our fellow citizens and change the ethos out there in America. There ARE ways to to accomplish this. I have no doubt.

Seems like first we need a dialog about how healing the breach can be done and what needs to be communicated.

[ulysses]

4. aren't we all extremists yet?

:D Great post, jokerman! :thumbsup:

[jokerman93]

8. Ullysses

:toast:

Great user name btw!

[ulysses]

11. this is the kind of discourse we need in America

and the kind that we'll likely never have on a large scale, at least in my lifetime.

Again, great post.

[jokerman93]

12. Hey, why not at least

Why not at least try a thought experiment like the kind Einstein used to do, where you imagine a dialog beginning to occur and move like a fresh wind across America and take notes on what the results of that are. I say, it's too early to know what can or can't happen. All the data isn't in. There's still all those possibilities we haven't thought of yet.

In order to ever happen, something has to be imagined as possible first, right. I happen to be a big advocate of active imagination to solve problems. Sometimes the solutions that come to you can seem quite radical but turn out wonderfully efficacious. That's what I say, anyhow.

Pleased to meet you.

J

[lildreamer316]

6. Great post.Thank you.

Lots of good brain food there........

[jokerman93]

10. thanks for replying n/t