Compare Red States map with Slave States map. Any questions?

[Czolgosz]

[meow mix]

1. what happened ohio and indy

???

[DanCa]

3. Traveling inbreeds?

[Czolgosz]

5. Diebold

[Lorien]

27. Exactly; with Diebold and Blackwell the fix was in for Ohio

I grew up in that state; it was liberal when I was a kid, and I seriously doubt that * "won" without considerable help last year.

[MojoXN]

41. Die, William McKinley, Die!

Thought you kight like that one...

MojoXN

[carpetbagger]

9. Read up about Copperheads.

link:

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=582

[OnionPatch]

40. One of my ancestors was one!

He lived in Ohio across the river from (modern day) Follansbee, W Va. and spent a few months in prison for being a southern sympathizer! It bummed me out when I found out about this. I had hoped my ancestors were more liberal since they were not southerners.

[MojoXN]

43. He lived in Mingo Junction.

I grew up in Follansbee. George Washington visited Old Mingo Bottom and reported seeing Indian campfires where Follansbee is today.

Wow! Someone on DU has heard of my town!

MojoXN

[BlueCollar]

2. none here...eom

[donco6]

4. Kansas and Nebraska were Free States.

But what the hell *is* the matter with Kansas?

[Zynx]

6. They haven't voted Democrat since 1964 and before that 1936

They only vote Democratic when they really need the Democrats or the Republicans are really out there. There must be something in their blood against voting Democratic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. The map says they were territories

open to slavery.

And to answer your question - there's nothing the matter with Kansas that a few good liberal minds can't fix.

[donco6]

14. I grew up in Kansas.

Your map is too old. It became a state in 1861 along with NE in the Kansas/Nebraska Act. Both states were allowed to hold elections to decide which way they would enter the union. In fact, it was during this decision time that Kansas became known as "Bleeding Kansas." William Quantrill - a proslavery agitator from Missouri - would raid Kansas settlements to punish them for abolitionist teachings. Both states eventually voted to enter as free states.

[Czolgosz]

16. It's a map reflecting the nation from roughly 1854 to 1861. When you say

it's "too old," what do you mean (i.e., the map's too old for what)?

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. I know that

I am a Kansan.

Where did that map come from? It's wrong.

And don't forget John Brown. He played a role in the 'Bleeding Kansas' battle as well. His picture is in the capitol building.

[Czolgosz]

11. The Kansas–Nebraska Act effectively repealed the Missouri Compromise by

granting both the Kansas and Nebraska territories the authority to separately decide whether to allow slavery within their borders and slavery was allowed in both territories during the fairly long period while the issue debated, fought over, and then ultimately resolved.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

7. One question...

Your point?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. I see the point as being, the Repub/Dem political fault line is primarily

the Civil War fault line. I've felt this to be true ever since the Civil Rights movement/LBJ years, then the "Southern Strategy" of Nixon that is a linchpin of Repub politics ever since, especially under this Prez.

[ultraist]

12. Then how do you account for the midwest, the Nwest and Swest being RED?

The South is only one of four regions that are red.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

19. I didn't say the maps corresponded exactly. It's just that in recent

times it seems the Repubs have relied most on the South as being their "home base" or most reliable support. When a Dem has made any inroads there (Carter, Clinton), they've won.

[LoZoccolo]

17. I see any attempt to characterize people based on them living...

...in red or blue states as not useful, because of the differences between the election results before the civil war and those of the 2004 election.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/civilwar.asp

[Czolgosz]

15. I thought the two maps provided some historical context to the current

rift splitting the country. it seemed like an interesting topic for discussion.

[cynatnite]

25. Living in a 'red' state myself...

it seemed like the OP was making a characterization about those residents of the past and the current ones.

That's how I read it and given the crap that was posted here at DU in regards to 'red' states, I am still a little on the defensive about it.

[Czolgosz]

36. Don't take is so personally. I'm also from a red state (Texas) so this

was not intended as a personal attack on the good people of any state.

[johnaries]

13. Ever hear of the "Solid South" after the Civil War?

"The phrase "Solid South" describes the reliable electoral support of the Southern United States for Democratic Party candidates for almost a century after the Reconstruction era."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_South

So, what are you trying to say? Being a liberal from Tennessee, I'm very interested....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. Well it seems like "Solid South" for Repubs ever since Civil Rights.

Didn't LBJ forsee this as a consequence of the Civil Rights movement and legislation? And racist response to these developments has been ruthlessly and effectively exploited by the Repubs.

[MisterP]

21. cause the Dems for a while were the "red" party, so to speak

note the Dixiecrats and Zell Miller

[petronius]

32. Remember, though, the Democratic party hasn't been the same

for that entire century. From your article "It was maintained by the Democratic Party's willingness to accommodate the South's Jim Crow laws and racial segregation, under the rubric of "states' rights". So, the "Solid South" wasn't exactly the 'progressive South.'

I think it's true that much of the Republican success in the South has been due to opposition (on the part of some Southerners) to Democratic stances on Civil Rights, affirmative action, etc. - this opposition has it's roots in Reconstruction and the slavery era. However, these map-comparison analyses are far too simplistic - they ignore the diversity of opinion in all regions (progressive ideals are not uniquely non-Southern and racism/reactionary-ism is not uniquely Southern) and they tend to veer far to quickly into regional bias. Summing up the South as 'former slave territory' does a major disservice and is an insult to progressive (and even many conservative) Southerners.

[thefloyd]

18. Missouri was not a complete slave state

Missouri was half and half if I remeber my Highschool History correctly

[Kosmos Mariner]

28. Missouri...

Missouri was a slave state, but it did not secede from the Union. The state had passionate Union and Confederate supporters. Pro Union German immigrants from St. Louis and Central Missouri helped keep the state from falling to rebel sympathizers who had recently relocated from the South. Much of the current "Red", "Blue" dynamic in the state mirrors that of the Civil War.


:dem:

[Czolgosz]

37. This is a pre-civil war map which reflects the state of the nation before

Missouri refused to join the Confederacy during the period when it allowed slavery.

[VPStoltz]

23. In reading a short history of the U.S recently,

I was surprised at how the union has been manipulated by the south since the beginning of the country. Politicians of the south have always held to north hostage to their demands.

[T Town Jake]

26. Nah, no questions about that horseshit "comparison" map...

...you're trying to peddle like a desperate apple-cart owner in an orange grove.

But, as an aside, I am curious about the mentality of someone whom would choose the name of an assassin of an American president as their DU moniker...I simply can't imagine a registered poster with the online nick "Lee Harvey Oswald" or "John Wilkes Boothe" being long tolerated here - and for good reason.

So, how about it Czolgosz? Are you proud of that obviously deliberate and inherently scummy association?

[Balbus]

30. Probably hoping someone wouldn't recognize the name.

I had no idea what or who it was until the link you provided.

[T Town Jake]

34. Bingo.

The "OP" no doubt believes he's one of these clever types, and no one is going to notice. And as long as they can roil the pot to their satisfaction, they keep posting divisive horseshit.

Classic disruption, IMO.

[Czolgosz]

46. If I intended to pick a name no one would recognize, "Czolgosz" wouldn't

be a very good choice, would it? I hope you will agree that Czolgosz is very distinctive and uncommon name and that Czolgosz is a moderately significant figure in American history and he's mentioned in nearly any high school American history textbook. In this context, I hope you will reconsider whether I was "probably hoping someone wouldn't recognize the name." I should hope we could agree that the posters here at DU are generally smart enough to recognize such a distinctive name from American history and that I could have done a better job if it was my goal to pick a name no one would recognize.

BTW, the name's intended to be a reference to the Anarchist character from the movie Slacker, who was actually a professor of mine who I admired (the character was not my professor, the person who played the character was and he largely made up his own dialog for the movie).

[Balbus]

49. No, I still think you thought you were being clever and you fully...

intended to choose a lesser known person in american history that assassinated a president as your username. And also that you knowingly posted the OP in order to cause disruption among the population of DU. I would hope that someone with over 800 posts would be "smart enough" to know that this argument has been posted many times before by many other people and has always degenerated into a divisive and confrontational thread. So I can only conclude that that was the intent in the first place.

edit: spelling

[Czolgosz]

53. When you say, "this argument has been posted many times before" what are

referring to? The OP said "Compare Red States map with Slave States map. Any questions?" The rest was just two maps that I found. What argument do you think I made so succinctly?

[Sugar Smack]

54. I think "Any questions?" is provacative enough.

It implies that slave states are naturally going to become red states that house Bush-voting bigots. Did you notice the exit polls or the vast number of voting machine discrepancies? Your backpeddling is weak. It's perfectly obvious that you intended to get some sort of attention with this comparison, and you've done it. Good for you.

[HereSince1628]

35. The "9 nations of North America" fit the distribution better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:9nations.png

The US _is_ a nation that can be divided into cultural regions.

Not surprisingly, voting geography reflects, imperfectly, patterns of culture and economics.

[Czolgosz]

39. The name is a reference to the Anarchist character from the movie Slacker.

I just thought the juxtaposition of the two maps was interesting and discussion-worthy. Where did you get the idea that I was peddling anything? Please tell me what it is I'm supposed to be selling so I can refine my marketing plan which seems a little vague to me at this point.

[PowerToThePeople]

42. After reading Wiki, I am not against your name.

I truly believe that we "workers" will end up having to kill off most of the oligarchy on this world to establish governments with fair and equal rights for people. There will not be any legal way to achieve this end. They will not allow it to happen. Czolgosz was correct in many of his ideals.

[MojoXN]

45. I wish I could change my handle to...

Charles J. Guiteau. And for what it's worth, I think that Czolgosz is an EXCELLENT handle.

Just because McKinley was an American President doesn't mean that we should afford him particular reverence. Remember, Bush is the President, technically, and so was Tricky Dick Nixon.

I don't know about you, but I would admire anyone who had the balls to make an attempt on *'s life. Some people are just too evil to live.

MojoXN

[kineneb]

29. being a Californio

I find the correlation interesting. And the Dems lost the south to the Reprehensible party after the 60's civil rights legislation passed. Then there was Nixon's southern strategy to solidify their gains. It is not a matter of party name, but what they stand for and who they support. The positions of the Rs & Ds are (at least until recently) exactly opposite what they were in the 1850's.

At this point I am just about ready for the "Nine Nations of North America", and we will pick up our toys and play elsewhere. There was a reason great-grandpa packed up the family and left Kansas in 1908...

[melody]

31. oy, this again

There were lots of large regions in the south where slavery was NOT tolerated - namely the Appalachians. In fact, the southern Appies were largely neutral during the Civil War. My ancestral-grandfather had to leave home to join the war because they wouldn't let him do it locally.

Also, many sections of the north benefited more from slavery on a financial level than did the south.

It's incorrect to assume all red states are right-wing and all blue states are not. We're a mixture of many in various degrees.
(edited because I'm old and tired)

[Liberal In Texas]

33. My take? The OP is mean and divisive. It does not belong on a

progressive site.

You are comparing apples to oranges, and trying to incite divisiveness.

This is region bashing, pure and simple. I do not know why it is not allowed on DU. The civil war was like a hundred fifty years ago. Stop trying to fight it.

Stop it.

[Czolgosz]

48. Which region do the historical maps bash? The South, parts of the Mid Wes

parts of the South West (i.e., about half the nation)? There is blame enough to go around for the tolerance of slavery. I don't see how the maps single out any one or two regions. I ran across this map comparison and thought that it made an interesting graphic depiction that suggested that the fault lines currently dividing the nation might have deeper historical roots than you hear discussed by the pundits. I thought it discussion worthy. I guess at least the two people who recommended the thread agree and you disagree. I'm cool with that because I don't demand or expect that everyone agree which topics are discussion worthy and which are taboo.

[SoCalDem]

38. been there done that

:)

[CBGLuthier]

44. Oklahoma was not a state

Yes, slavery was present in the territories, but Oklahoma was not a state.

Someday, I pray, all those who continue this red state blue state shit will grow up and realize that insulting people will not win them over.

[Czolgosz]

47. On the map, Oklahoma was listed as Indian Territory and not as a state.

[CBGLuthier]

50. The legend is wrong then

The legend says slave states.

My eyes are not strong enough to read the tiny words. :-)

[Czolgosz]

52. Fair enough. Also, the title of the OP says "Slave States" when "Slave

States and Territories would have been more accurate (I shortened it to fit in the subject line).

[Pepperbelly]

51. Yes ...

what is your point?

[Czolgosz]

55. I think the maps suggest that the fault lines currently dividing the

nation might have deeper historical roots than you hear discussed by the pundits. I thought it discussion worthy. I don't think that the maps saying anything bad about any individuals in any location (of course there are great people even within the least progressive states -- the mayor od Salt Lake City and those who support him prove that every day). Also, I do think racial undercurrents do affect many aspects of the current political landscape, but i don't think these maps prove or disprove that proposition.

[Sugar Smack]

56. This line of thought is total and utter BULLSHIT.

It's not in the least bit "interesting" or "discussion worthy", particularly when the OP states "Any questions?". It's flamebait, pure and simple. You can't just explain yourself away by saying, "Oh, well, what kind of argument did I start by putting comparison maps up?" I'm SICK of this kind of flatulence spewed by those so buried in their own vegetable torpor they can't get their head out of their ass for a second and consider rigged Dieblod machines. We're not all rednecks with refrigerators on our front porch and tires in our yard. Grow up.

[pinto]

57. Locked.

Original post seems to be a regional bash and inflammatory.