The "Immigration Issue" .... whats the issue... exactly?

[bee]

Preface this by saying I live in northern New England. But I just dont get it. Is this a real national issue or just an issue invented to fire up the neo-kkkon voters (the way gay marriage did). Seems like its going to be one of the R's "things" for '06 and '08. That being said.. Im just wondering what exactly the thing is. Obviously Im missing the big picture. :shrug:

[BlueJac]

1. legal vs illegal

[bee]

2. so its a crackdown on illegal immigration?

Do you know if the dems have a stance on this? Or is it just a repub issue...

[Lerkfish]

6. some "moderate dems" here at DU seem upset by porous borders.

so don't know if its just a repub issue.

Personally, I hope they keep the borders porous, for when this administration (if it survives recent setbacks) continues their goose-step march to nihilistic fascism, I want to be able to utilize those porous borders to flee.

:)

otherwise, like the war on drugs, they are attacking the wrong front.

If they truly wanted to eliminate illegal immigration, they would round up business OWNERS that employ illegals and send them for long sentences. If there were no jobs for illegals, they wouldn't come here, except legally. Instead, they focus enforcement on the poor saps looking to feed their families, instead of the snidely whiplashes guilty of enslaving them for pennies.

similar to the war on drugs. If you do not eliminate demand, there will always be supply.

[Legendary Mongoose]

3. I live in LA. Here's what I see

There is a lot of hyperbole on both sides. It's tough to sort out the truth from the frontlines, let alone from Northier USA. :)

The Situation:
Mexico, and most of Central America, is governed by organizations even more decrepit and corrupt than ours. In addition, there's almost no opportunity for poor people to reach upper class (there is almost NO middle class in Mexico).

On the other hand, despite our high-paying jobs being off-shored, there is a wealth of low-paying manual labor jobs in America. And all of them, even the under-the-table ones, pay better than any job in Central America.

So that's why they come. It's pretty straight forward. I think any of us in the same situation would be tempted to break the law and sneak in, if the opportunities were so much greater than where we were.


The Pros:
America IS the land of opportunity, and we should open our doors to the disenfranchised of the world. It encourages diversity, it brings new ideas, new cultures, and fresh "blood" for lack of a better word.

Illegals tend to do jobs that other Americans wouldn't want to do -- especially at the wages they're being paid.

Because they often use faked Social Security cards, the illegals who do get "real" jobs do pay taxes, despite the right's claims that they do not. However there is some contention as to how many illegals have "real" jobs.

The Cons:
In places like Los Angeles, the flow of illegal aliens have severely impacted basic social service structures, especially schools (which must educate, regardless of citizenship status) and hospitals (which must care for, regardless of ability to pay). This has been a significant portion of California's continuing budgetary woes.

By their very nature, illegals are.. "illegal" -- and are breaking the law by being here. This is why most legislation that is not specifically AGAINST illegals, are for making their status legal, which would remove that stigma, and maybe help incorporate them into American society.



I'm torn on the issue. They shouldn't be here illegally. But they have very good reasons for being here. We can't afford to feed, clothe, educate, and care for every poor person in the world. But we should be able to better allocate our moneys to try and help. If we could find a better method -- maybe easing the immigration restrictions with our central american neighbors, and better documenting all employees -- so that census data, financial records, economic statistics, and proper taxes are all taken care of -- then maybe that would be the best solution.

I would never want America to be a place that people DON'T want to come to. But I would hope that when people do choose to come work and live here, they do it in the way proscribed by law.



The Cons:

[bee]

8. excellent. thanks for the wealth of info!

Wouldnt it just be easier to negotiate some sort of open-door policy with Mexico? A mutually benefitial agreement.. as opposed to trying to stop illegal immigration? I mean, what are they going to do now that hasnt already been done? Build a moat?

[Legendary Mongoose]

12. That's what Fox wants

Vicente Fox, president of mexico wants an open border for workers to come to the US, and maybe live in Mexico, or have a sort of dual-citizenship.

Many politicians, especially those in the southern states with economic ties to companies that hire the illegals at slave-labor wages, are all for this.

Others are against it, because they fear an economic drain where wages are earned in the US, but spent in Mexico.

There are extremists who believe that this is a conspiracy by Mexico to try and retake the portions of American "stolen" from them during the Mexican-American war.

Your initial assessment that this seems to be a republican issue instead of a democrat issue seems to be true. For the most part, democrats are for open borders, and establishing better relations with our neighbors. Republicans are torn between the corporate slave traders, and the law-and-order moat-builders, and so it comes up as a campaign issue in-party.

[Kolesar]

4. A million immigrants came into this country officially

3 million came in without documentation to find what work they could without documentation. Employers are hiring.

Employers benefit by cheap labor they can exploit at low wages since their employees have little leverage. "America for Americans"-types get all up in arms (literally) because they don't want these people moving in. The way I look at it, the gops win both ways: exploit labor and fan the flames of a nasty political issue.

In all fairness, I think most immigrants actually return home at intervals so the sum of immigration is much less than the 4 million/year would tell us.

The net effect was the population of the US increased by 35 million in the 1990s.

[BlueJac]

5. Bush doesn't care.........

But when your neighborhood fills up with illegals makes you wonder about true homeland security!

[Legendary Mongoose]

13. An excellent post... How secure ARE we

if homeless men, women and children can enter the country. You'd think a well-trained militant would find it much easier.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

7. GastArbeiters: Guest Workers

Bush's base is up in arms over proposals to make reasonable rules for guest workers. Hence things like the FBI porn squad sop being thrown at them.

[bee]

10. see... rules for guest workers makes a hell of a lot more sense

to me. But hey, dont forget, adult porn destroys families. :sarcasm:

[SoCalDem]

9. Republicans fear "darker" people..and are sure they

intend to "breed" with their little Aryan princesses.. they have no qualms about hiring these people for slave wages..but they are conflicted because hiring them also means bringing them/allowing them here..

If they could figure out a way to castrate the men and hysterectomize the women at the border, they would do it in a heartbeat:sarcasm:

[bee]

11. exactly. So its the Americans that are hiring them...

that are contributing to the reasons they come here. Its sad that coming here illegally to work in some sweat-shop type environment is better than staying there. But as long as they can find work here... why would they stop coming? doesn't make sense. Seems like * is making an issue of the symptom... but not the underlying problem. shocking.