Help! My 18 year old nephew wants to join the army!

[shaniqua6392]

He had a recruiter even come to the house yesterday. We have convinced him to delay his decision until we all talk to him first. He wants to be a police officer and the recruiter told him he can be a military police officer and they will pay for his college, etc. The usual B.S. Does anyone know of any reference material source or websites we can use? We are desperate to stop him, but the recruiters have been working on him and we did not even know it. I know someone at DU could maybe help me to prepare for my "talk" with him. I just want facts to back me up. Thank you to anyone who hears my plea.

[Acryliccalico]

1. WHY?????

[shaniqua6392]

8. He is in college right now.

He does not even have to pay any tuition because his grandparents are willing to pay for everything. I think the recruiter is making it sound so glamorous, it is hard to resist. They even told him he probably will not have to go to Iraq! They are making it sound like all his dreams of being a police officer will be instantaneous. I wondered if you joined, do you automatically get to be an MP? I just have lots of questions to debunk what he has been told. Thank you all for your input though.

[_ed_]

15. See my post below

But I wanted to answer a few things here first:

I think the recruiter is making it sound so glamorous

They always do. Ask him if he likes bagging body parts of dead Iraqis or scrubbing toilets. A private in the Army gets the shittiest jobs around.

I wondered if you joined, do you automatically get to be an MP?

Probably, because MPs are in very short supply. However, recruiters often bullshit you initially, and then change what job you'll have later. If he does join, have a lawyer look at the contract.

[SouthernDem2004]

21. If he goes in with the MP MOS he will be a MP.

[Ladyhawk]

30. I believe they told my brother's stepson he wouldn't have to go to Iraq.

Guess who's doing two tours in Iraq?

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Ok ok from real experience

1.- recruiters make it sound like everything you ever wanted, if it is NOT in writing, it did not happen.. so have a lawyer look at the contract

2.- IF he fails any part of AIT they can do whatever they want with him, including promising he will be an MP and making him a line grunt.

3.- He has to look at what the local PD has and will offer, becoming a cop even after he leaves the services, still involves going to a civilian academy since EVERY state and EVERY city has its own rules regarding the use of deadly force and all that crap.

4.- Recruiters will promise he will not go to Iraq, a kid who joined last year, we told him you will.. no I won't they said such... is it in the contract? No, why would they lie to me? Technically they have not lied YET... his ass is in Afghanistan right now... his brother, same song and dance, he is deploying this week to Iraq with the 101st.

[WA98296]

23. Police Departments are hiring. Military not a requirement. And...

How about sitting him down with the F-9/11 movie?

[bryant69]

2. ONe reference

Is to talk to someone who's served, who was recruited, and aks them how many of the recruiters promises held true.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[knitter4democracy]

3. Has he watched "Over There"?

That show's pretty graphic and pretty intense--and it's also clear that it's not even close to how bad it is.

Has he talked with a police officer about his dreams? There are other ways to get there, better ones, and it would be best to talk to someone who's been there and knows the ropes. He needs to know his options.

Has he talked with a vet, preferably at a VA Center? That might change his mind.

[SeattleGirl]

7. That's a great suggestion

He needs to make an informed decision, and he cannot do that if he has only one side of a many-faceted story. Talking to a police or sheriff's officer would be a good idea, as they could tell him what it takes to get into the academy and do the job.

[knitter4democracy]

70. My stepbrother's a sergeant with the country sheriff's dept.

He didn't get the criminology degree or go through the service. He got a history degree and then went through the police academy. Of course, he had some connections, family-wise, to get into the county sheriff's dept, but he would've gotten a good job anyway.

There are other routes, and a good talk with a police officer will help him see those. I'd recommend the school guidance counselor, but many of those just shunt kids to the military without really thinking it all the way through.

[kiki]

4. Has anyone told him...

That a police officer and a MILITARY police officer aren't the same thing, or even close?

[Angry Girl]

5. Here are some links that may help:

You've probably heard the recruiter's sales pitch -- travel, training, money for college. Sounds pretty good, doesn't it? All advertising does. But if military life doesn't live up to the advertising, you can't bring your enlistment agreement back to the recruiter for a refund. You're in for eight years of your life (including inactive reserve duty). You wouldn't buy a car without looking under the hood. Don't enlist before you check out the reality of military life that lies behind the glamorous television ads and glossy brochures. Check it out carefully.
http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

Radioactive Wounds of War: Tests on returning troops suggest serious health consequences of depleted uranium use in Iraq
http://www.ngwrc.org/index.cfm?page=Article&ID=2043

Soldiers still waiting for armor reimbursements
Pentagon fails to figure out how to pay back troops' personal expenditures
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9524109

US Military Personnel Wounded in Iraq & Afghanistan:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/wounded/

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/index.php#us

[shaniqua6392]

10. Absolutely perfect!!!

That is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for. Thank you everyone for helping me. I want to be armed with everything I have before I talk to him. We are so afraid.

[Tiggeroshii]

6. Maybe if you tell him to serve after he finishes college.

once you have a BA and sign up, you're automatically a lieutenant... Maybe trying to encourage him to sign up after colege would be best. It will give him more time to think about it and the benefits are better.

[MildyRules]

12. Whoa! That's not true!

You have to be accepted into OCS to be an officer. Just because you have a BA does NOT mean the army will accept you into OCS.

[Tiggeroshii]

24. OCS?

HAH. wow. I thought it was true, but had my doubts. Thanks for calling me on it.I understood there was some kind of Officer's Training program you had to go through. What's OCS?

[MildyRules]

26. Officer Candidate's School

Just because one has a degree, it doesn't mean one can get into OCS.

[Tiggeroshii]

45. there a test to take for it? n/t

[MildyRules]

47. Yes, plus other "screening."

[Tiggeroshii]

51. what would that involve?

sorry so many questions. I've been seriously considering the military as an option after i get out of college. Are there any links that might explain this stuff that you know of?

[MildyRules]

53. Here's a couple

http://www.armyocs.com/portal/index.php
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/

[Tiggeroshii]

54. hehe. Thanks a bunch!

[MildyRules]

56. I'd recommend another service besides the Army ,though.

[losdiablosgato]

59. Yeah, the air force

Their idea of roughing it is basic cable in the air conditioned barracks.

[MildyRules]

60. Barracks?

The Air Force doesn't even have barracks (none of the services do except for in war zones/deployment locations and during basic). They have dorms these days.

[Tiggeroshii]

62. I was thinking something along the lines of the navy, marines, air force..

Not sure yet. I have a few more years to decide though...

[JHB]

55. Remember "An Officer and a Gentleman" (the movie)?

Richard Gere & pals were college grads who'd been accepted into OCS and were going through Officer Candidate training.

[Skidmore]

9. Find the pictures of coffins and the injured and

tell him this how some people come back. Show him the pictures of dead babies and women. Tell him by agreeing to go to the military, he'll be contracting to be able to kill someone on command. Ask him if he's capable of this--to search his soul. That the moment he points his gun toward another human being and pulls the trigger, his life will be forever changed. Ask him if there was anything in what he was taught in life that would support this choice. I had this conversation with my son about 3 years ago. It worked.

[_ed_]

11. ...

I spent 9 LONG years in the Army. Maybe I can help a little.

First, if he wants to be a cop, then why does he have to go to college? That doesn't make sense. Military Police and Cops are like apples and oranges. He might learn a few things that will help him, but it really won't. He'll be behind his peers that join the police force while he goes to the Army.

The recruiter probably gave him the standard info, which is probably true. If he joins the Army for one tour, he will get the GI Bill money, which will pay for almost any good state school. That's fine, but also tell him the other side...

He will go to Iraq. There's no "if." MPs are in VERY short supply right now, which is why the recruiter is after him. I knew MPs who served up to 1 1/2 years at a time in Iraq because they are needed so badly. In a 4 year enlistment, there's a very good chance that he might do two years of it in Iraq. MPs are in such short supply that they were hiring civilian contractors to do "police" duties on bases in America because all the MPs were deployed.

If he wants to go to college - TAKE A LOAN!!! APPLY FOR FINANCIAL AID!!! It's not worth dying to go to college. There are myriad options that don't involve enlisting.

Oh, yeah - STOP LOSS! There is a very, very good chance that they will involuntarily extend his enlistment under stop loss. There's nothing you can do to stop it.

If he does manage to get out when he wants to, he'll be under IRR (Involuntary Ready Reserve) for years afterward. One of the things that is confusing when you enlist is the IRR thing. EVERY contract for the military requires you to serve 8 years TOTAL. If he signs up for a 3 year enlistment, he will still be under IRR for 5 years after that. 5 YEARS! They can call you up at any time, for any reason, regardless of what you are doing with your life.

Please do all you can to stop him from joining the Army.

[shaniqua6392]

18. Thank you for posting that.

And thank you for your service. I am not normally anti military. I just am right now the way things are. Our service people are heroes and our government is using them to promote their agendas. I am going to show him all of your responses and hopefully it will work. I thank all of you at DU from the bottom of my heart. I knew I could count on you. I am just heartbroken right now, but I will fight this. I am not going to let Bush have him.

[_ed_]

22. No problem.

It's not "anti-military" to talk someone out of joining right now.

If it were 10 years ago, I would fully support anyone serving their country. It's a great way for some people to find direction, gain discipline, make some money, pay for college, etc. I had several soldiers in my units that did one tour, turned their life around, and went to college.

It's just not like that now. It's a shame what Bush has done to our Army.

[caligirl]

39. Just reading along here, hey you don't have to apologize,

we left the marine corps and that was one of our big reasons. The separations and raising kids without a dad around too.

I agree, at another time the military is a good option, just not now.
Best wishes, hope all goes well.

[whatever4]

13. Gee

I'm so sorry.

I'm not sure what I'd say, but maybe ask him if he thinks he'll still want to be a police officer after he has to shoot and kill children. Ask him if he'll still be proud after killing families in drive-by/checkpoint murders? Ask him if he'll like the rejection from former military types like me? I'll have little respect for those that go there willingly, knowing it's all about killing civilians, and doing it anyway. The contempt. The ridicule. The anger. This is NOT how the military is suppose to be, and this is NOT my military.

If he joins, he won't be freeing anyone.

As him if he's going to keep on killing civilians when he comes back as a police officer?

As him if he ever wants to have children, and I'd personally recommend having that preventative surgery NOW, because depleted uranium can cause some pretty nasty birth defects. Kids with brains outside their bodies, and on, and on. That is Iraq now.

Our nation has destroyed another nation.

He wants to be part of that?

Ask him if he's only going over to rape kids.
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/15/hersh_children_raped.html

Ask him if he really thinks he'll be able to stop other soldiers from doing it.

Tell him I'm sorry if he goes. He won't come back the same, if he comes back at all, and that's a given which NO one will argue with. At 18, I'm surprised he's so willing to throw his life away. As bad as our nation looks to be in the next few years, he'd do better to stay here, stay healthy, and be around to help his family in the very difficult years to come. He goes over there, he might be useless to everyone. If he cares about his family, he ought to stick around, because we're going to be in bad shape the nation over.

But if he likes raping kids, I guess it's the place to go...

Maybe a little shock tactics are in order with him, if the recruiters have gotten ahold of him. So, don't hold back. It maybe be your ONLY chance to save his life. Worry far less about hurting his feelings. Be mean. You still won't be any meaner than boot camp. And he really won't be the same if he goes. Rip into his reasons as much as you can. You'll be the last voice of reason he hears.

[MildyRules]

29. Yeah

"Ask him if he's only going over to rape kids."

that's sure to get him to engage in an adult discussion about it.

[apneaman]

14. 18 year old nephew wants to join the army

Sounds like a good idea. There is nothing wrong with serving ones country, learning a job, and getting money for college. Most police departments will quickly hire honorably discharged vets.

[LeftyMom]

41. That risk of death thing sure sucks though

especially in an illegal war with the potential for war crimes prosecution.

Let the war-mongers fight thier own battles!

[Nay]

61. Not only death to worry about--If he gets a permanent injury of any

kind, no police department will ever take him. He won't pass the physical.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. Unless you die, of course... nt

[Richard Steele]

63. And don't forget the candy and free ponies, apneaman!

pfft.

[newyawker99]

64. Hi apneaman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Maru Kitteh]

72. Enjoy your stay here, however long or short it may be

That being said I do hope you are gracing us with your presence from somewhere in Iraq, because if you're not, that makes you a flaming hypocrite.

Perhaps better advice to the young nephew would be to remain in school so that he can gain the kind of quality education that would prevent him from sputtering awkward phrases like "learning a job".

It almost sounds like something a freep would say, not that I blame them for trolling this message board. FreakRebulik is so very dull, like so many of it's members.

[0rganism]

16. Does he understand that the chances of his deployment to Iraq are 100%?

Does he understand that the promises of college tuition assistance are very often overstated?

Does he understand that the V.A. budget and facilities are no longer adequate to support the load placed upon it by those needing medical assistance?

Does he understand that the federal government is even now reneging on its agreements to provide health care to veterans through the V.A.?

If so, if he knows all this and still wants to serve in Iraq with no guarantee of higher education or medical assistance on his return, then maybe you should step aside and let him make his own mistakes, no matter how tragic. It is not your place to "stop him", any more than it is his to force you to enlist -- IMHO.

[punpirate]

17. Wants to be an MP?

Find some of the Abu Ghraib photos and ask him, "if someone orders you to do this, what will you do?"

[edbermac]

19. Nothing wrong with the army; just their Commander-In-Chief.

[apneaman]

32. Nothing wrong with the army

The Army is a pretty good deal for most young people. They taught me how to do my job (in the medical field), and help me buy a house (with the G.I. Bill). Just because you don't agree with something does not make it wrong.

[rocktivity]

65. DING DING DING! Edbermac, you're our grand prize winner!

Nothing wrong with the Army; just their Commander-In-Chief.

Why in the world is your nephew thinking of selling his soul to--and gambling his life on--such a man? With all the lies Bush has told? With all the stealing and cheating he's done? The way he's allowed his troops to go underequppied, understaffed, unreimbursed, and even underfed? With the way he's systematically cutting military benefits? With his refusal to attend soldiers' funerals? With a service record of his own that he has YET to account for? With the kind of judgement, intelligence, and competence he's exhibited?

I used to help write ads for the U.S. Army, and I didn't let anyone put me down about it because at the time, it WAS a good way to learn a skill and get money for college. But the reason WHY it was good is that you didn't have to worry about the commander-in-chief pimping you out as hired muscle for his self-serving business deals.

It doesn't sound like your nephew has paid attention to the last four years at all.

:headbang:
rocknation

[rocktivity]

67. And speaking of being unreimbursed

Troops Wait For Body Armor Reimbursements

(UK Guardian, September 30, 2005)...For Marine Sgt. Todd Bowers, that extra piece of equipment--a high-tech rifle scope bought by his father for $600 and a $100 pair of goggles--turned out to be a life-or-death purchase...(He) was shot by a sniper during his second tour in Iraq, but the round lodged in his scope, and his goggles protected his eyes from the shrapnel..."We weren't provided those going to Iraq," he said Thursday. "But they literally saved my life."

...Under the law Congress passed last October, the Defense Department had until Feb. 25 to develop regulations for the reimbursement, which is limited to $1,100 per item. Pentagon officials opposed the reimbursement idea, calling it "an unmanageable precedent that will saddle the DOD with an open-ended financial burden"...

If they deduct $72 million from their next payment to Halliburton instead of giving them another performance bonus, that would be a start...

:headbang:
rocknation

[gkhouston]

20. he can be a cop *without* joining the army

but can you train to be a cop if you're missing some of your limbs? As much as we talk about the death toll here on DU, let's not forget the even higher number of young men and women who have been grievously injured in Iraq. A recruiter's promises as to where he will and will not serve are meaningless. Once he signs the papers, he's basically surrendered control of his life for who knows how long. I've got nothing against military service, but he needs to understand what he's signing up for and be realistic about what's likely to happen next.

[SouthernDem2004]

25. I would suggest not being confrontational. You will force him on

the defensive and he will not listen. Express your views but try to avoid being negative about the military itself.

Personally I see nothing wrong with joining. <shrug>

[insane_cratic_gal]

27. Unless he gets it in writing

they are lying and passes the test for placement the Asvab

He can become a cop without the military! Nothing he does on military police detail is going to allow him to become a police officer.

Military cops are a dime a dozen and blown up at check points and forced to fire upon people who don't stop at check points. Chances are your nephew will not make it out alive to become a cop and he needs to know that.

[cynatnite]

28. He's an adult and the decision is ultimately his...

They offer programs to soldiers that helps pay for college and if done right, the person won't have to pay a dime for it.

This is what I have told others who have considered going in. Be aware of all the facts and don't take what recruiters say at face value. Make sure whatever they tell him is on paper. If it's not, he shouldn't expect that promise to happen. Oh, and whatever bonuses they might offer, tell him to ignore it. If it comes with it if he signs up, that's fine, but don't allow it to be a motivating factor. Money comes and goes.

Also, being a cop doesn't mean he has to go into the military. I would also suggest he check out the other branches of the military before making a decision. Coast Guard is a good one that I've heard a lot of positive things about.

What I would also tell him is that to consider this carefully. M.P.'s usually wind up in combat and with the war, the chances are greater. I would highly recommend he speak to other vets...mostly ones who have been M.P.'s and get their two cents. Maybe talking to cops would help as well.

The circumstances are much different now and the stakes are higher with a war going on. He could find himself in Iraq on an extended tour. It might be much longer than most others since he would be in a desirable job and the military really needs bodies to fill the ones left by wounded and dead.

Keep in mind the military is desperate to up their numbers and if these recruiters are worth their salt, they will be honest and upfront about what you're nephew is looking at. Some are.

Tell him, and I can't emphasize this enough, to take his time. There is no hurry at all. The military is not going anywhere and he's only got one life. If he doesn't wind up dead, he could wind up without an arm or a leg. He would not be able to fulfill his goals.

It is admirable he wants to serve his fellow man and his country. I would tell him that, but it will not do any harm by taking his time and thinking this out all the way.

Good luck!

[happyslug]

31. Military Police training is generally NOT considered Police Training.

While many police forces give veteran preference to people who have served in the Military, the training the Military Police get is NOT proper Civilian Police Training. Any police force hiring someone out of the Military will have to re-train the officer to meet Civilian guidelines. Most of this has to do with the fact MPs are less "Police" than Prison Guards. As to being Prison guards, their training is for being guards over Prisoners of War (POWs) where the Geneva Convention applies as opposed to the law applying to Civilian Prisoners, for example no Civilian prison will permit the prisoners to elect their own representative yet that MUST be permitted to POWs in POW camps (Remember POWs are NOT imprison as punishment but to be held to prevent them from attacking America, any limitations over and above the need to prevent the POWs from attacking or escaping violates the Geneva Convention).

Other functions of the MPs are security guards (Where force is generally NOT authorized) or directing traffic. Where force is authorized that is provided by armed guards who had training independent of MP Training (often Civilian Contractors who have had regular Civilian Police Training).

I once talked to a Police Chief and in his opinion the Training people get while an MP does NOt carry over to Civilian Police Work and as such gives the recruit NO edge over someone without any training.

Now many police forces give special preference to "Veterans" but I expect that not to survive the next Constitutional Challenge. In the 1970s and 1980s when the preference was last challenged the courts upheld it do to the fact that men had been subject to the Draft prior to 1972 and the Veteran preference was to compensate them for being drafted (or enlisting to avoid the draft). The problem is since 1972 the DRAFT has been abolished and now the men who had been subject to the draft are all over 50 years of age and as such unlikely to apply to be a police recruit. Given this I see the preference being ruled illegal discrimination against women for women can NOT join the Military in the numbers men can (Women can NOT join the "Combat Arms", i.e. Infantry, armor or Artillery). The Veteran preference given is NOT for someone who served time in the MPs but anyone who was in the Military, thus I see such veteran preference being struck down as unconstitutional against women (and once struck-ed down as against women will NOT survive against men who had NOT served in the Military).

Sorry to go on this rant, but recruiters do try to use these state and local Veteran preferences as tools to show young kids that joining the military is good. The main advantage for someone in Police work is NOT the MP training but the mere fact one enlisted in the Military and served his time. Such State and Local Veteran preferences have no end time limit (unlike the Federal Veteran preference which ended in 1975 as the last person subject to he draft ended his first enlistment).

My point is the only advantage for joining the Military of you want to go into law enforcement is the Veteran preference NOT the MP Training. AND THAT PREFERENCE IS MARGINALLY CONSTITUTIONAL given the limits the Military puts on women enlisting. I do NOT see such veteran preference surviving any court challenge unlike the 1980s when the Courts permitted such preference but on split decisions (i.e. some appellant court judges wanted to rule then unconstitutional even than but the Majority of Judges bought the argument of the draft, a draft that ended in 1972).

[MildyRules]

34. what are

"the limits the Military puts on women enlisting?" Women can enlist just as freely as men. Some career fields are closed to them, but the CAN enlist.

[insane_cratic_gal]

36. In the Navy

it depends on how many bunks are open on a ship.

They have a years waiting list, I believe for Women in the Navy.

[MildyRules]

37. Really?

My wife is assigned to the Pentagon. Lemme ask her if that's true.

Edited after phone call to wife. Says she knows of no such waiting list for women to enter the navy.

Do you have a source for that?

[insane_cratic_gal]

38. Yes

It depends on how many bunks are open on a ship. My husband works for the Navy Recruiting district in PA.(as public affairs, so don't beat me up!)

Now for other branches I'm not sure how they do business. But with women not allowed in combat, I'm not sure how that works out.

[MildyRules]

40. Women ARE allowed in combat

Just not in infrantry and some special forces units.

[happyslug]

52. I am taking both Historically and today.

In the 1970s and 1980s both the Air Force and Navy could not have more than 10-15% of their recruits being Female. This was changed in the early 1990s when enlistment by men dropped do to men having more options as to jobs than joining the military. Given this problem of getting recruits the limits were removed (i.e. it is only in the last ten years that women could LEGALLY join the Air Force, Navy or Marines in the same number as men).

Now the US Army had different rules. Unlike the Air Force, Navy and Marines the US Army had NEVER HAD ANY LEGAL RESTRICTIONS as to how many women could enlist. This was due to the wording of the underlaying statute governing enlistments passed in 1947. In that Act Congress set forth restrictions as to enlistment into the Navy, Air Force and Marines but failed to mentioned the Army when it came to enlistment. This was NOT an oversight, the big fear in 1947 was some Northern National Guard Unit would appoint an Afro-American over white enlisted ranks and that unit than be mobilized and transfered to the South where such a situation was illegal (or Worse the Black Officer being put in charge of southern white troops).

Under the Act the National Guard, for the first time, came under the same act as the Regular forces but retained its "dual" identity as also being a state military force (The National Guard had been under Federal Control since at least 1903 but under a separate set of Laws passed by Congress than what covered the Regular Army and Navy).

While Congress could pass restrictions as to Regular Forces, it could NOT do so for such State Military Forces when such state Military forces were under state Command (Congress could pass laws Governing the NAtional Guard once the National Guard was under Federal Command). Thus Congress to avoid the race issue decided not to address the issue of who can enlist or be commissioned into the National Guard Portion of the Army by permitting the Army as a whole to set its enlistment requirements by Regulation instead of statute. Such Regulations were to cover both the Regular Army and the National Guard (in and out of Federal Service).

Till the 1970s the above was a legal difference without any real significance (Do to Truman's Administration movement to integrate the services and the Stresses of the Koran War most US Army units were integrated by 1955, while Southern National Guard units stayed all white till the 1970s). Than the draft ended in 1972 and the Army had a problem getting recruits. The Army than spotted this loophole and changed its regulations to permit greater number of women to enlist. Women could not enlist into the "Combat Arms" i.e. Infantry, Armor and Artillery (and related special forces units) but could enlist into any other type of unit (including MPs). During the 1970s up to 40% of people enlisting into the non-combat arms of the Army were Female (and this continues to this day).

Anyway, while the Army could enlist women in such high numbers, the Air Force, Navy and Marines could not without a change in the Statute authorizing who they could enlist. The statute was not changed till sometime in the early 1990s. The change seems to have been driven by a need to increase the pool of people recruited to be pilots for the Navy and Air Force than a problem getting people to enlist (But Congress just change the Statute to the statute the US Army had been working under since 1947).

Thus since the 1970s women have only been permitted to enlist in the same numbers as men in the last ten years (and this is even subject to restrictions, i.e. can NOT enlist in Combat Arms, can not enlist if separate quarters are NOT available, i.e. most ships design and built before the early 1990s). Thus the number of female who have served in the Military since 1975 are much less than the number of Males who have served in the Military since 1975 AND THIS WAS THE RESULT OF LEGAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN.

The decisions of the 1970s and 1980s upholding State and Local Governments Veteran Preference reflected the fact that the Draft only ended in 1972 (and the last draftee left the service in 1975). Given that no man HAD to serve in the Military since 1975 while a number of women could NOT serve in the Military who WANTED TO BUT COULD NOT SERVE BECAUSE THEY WERE FEMALE, the decisions upholding the State and Local Veteran Preference Against such women have very weak legal support (and if the law has weak support against such women it also has weak support against women who did not even think of enlisting do to the prevailing LEGAL discrimination). My point being that I suspect such Veteran Preference will NOT survive a Constitutional Challenge (and the chief reason Congress did NOT give such preference for Federal employees if their time of service is post-1975).

My previous thread was just to point out that such preferences are constitutionally suspect and as such it is NOT worth enlisting into the Military just to get a "leg up" on someone who had NOT served in the Military. You may find that "legal leg" gone by the time your enlist ends.

By the way, everyone criticized my comment on the Veteran Preference but NO ONE MADE A COMMENT THAT MP TRAINING IS NOT THE SAME AS CIVILIAN POLICE TRAINING?

[MildyRules]

58. This is not true

"i.e. can NOT enlist in Combat Arms"

Woman can enlist in the combat arms, just not in the infantry.

Your comment about MP's being different from civilian police is, mostly accurate.

[happyslug]

66. Various Sources says the ban on women is wider than Infantry:

Marine Corp Site saying Women can NOT join "Infantry, Artillery, Armor..." (it goes on to say in the 1990s Women could fly combat planes but the ban on women Infantry, Artillery and Armor still stands.
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/womenmarines

Article on Women in Combat banning women from "Infantry, Armor or Special Forces":
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1265/context/cover

Than the Actual regulations issued in 1992:
http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r600_13.pdf#search='AR%2060013'

Section III
Policy
1–12. Overall policy for the female soldier
a . The Army’s assignment policy for female soldiers allows women to serve in any officer or enlisted specialty or position except in those specialties, positions, or units (battalion size or smaller) which are assigned a routine mission to engage in direct combat, or which collocate routinely with units assigned a direct combat mission.

"Direct Combat" means, Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Special Forces and any other combat arm (See 10 USC § 116(b)(1) below for Federal Statute defining a "Combat Arm Battalions".

10 USC § 116(b)(1):
(b) In this section:
(1) The term "combat arms battalions" means armor, infantry, mechanized infantry, air assault infantry, airborne infantry, ranger, artillery, and combat engineer battalions and armored cavalry and air cavalry squadrons.

Note not only are women forbidden to be in a "combat arm" but are also forbidden to be in a unit that "collocate routinely with units assigned a direct combat mission". Thus if a non-combat unit ends up sharing an area with a combat unit, all of the women in the non-combat unit must be reassigned. This is NOT happening in Iraq, but I am just pointing out the regulations now in force.

[Walt Starr]

33. Military Police Officers in Iraq generally guard prisons

Make sure he sees the new Abu Ghraib pictures when they come out. Tell him, this is the job they'll want you to do."

[AllegroRondo]

35. remind him that enlistment is for 8 years

even if your initial contract is 2 years (or 3, 4, whatever), you must stay in Ready Reserve until 8 years after you sign. During that time, they can recall you for any reason. And it has happened to MANY people due to Iraq.

So unless he is willing to spend the next 8 years at the whims of the Army, dont do it.

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Show him the true images of war

See if he's still interested then.

[Guaranteed]

71. That's exactly my thought. Specifically, the images of

our soldiers when they were alive.

"They're dead now."

Almost 2,000 of them.

[IN-dem]

43. Finacial aid for college here is the website

fafsa.ed.gov/

[Marleyb]

44. two words...Depleted Uranium

have him listed to this audio by Dr Doug Rokke
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/rokke-depleted_uranium-k19b.mp3

[npincus]

48. SHOW HIM THS LINK

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=60bd261e5fa8b6862608681e2e95677a&threadid=1672449

This link was posted on DU recently...

A guy posted REVOLTING pictures his brother took when he was a soldier in Iraq. I looked at a few- ugh.

Show this to your nephew- I hope you can stop him.

[bleedingheart]

49. tell him this about "police training"...

my cousin joined the army, got scared about going to 'Nam...got a Section 8 ...and went straight to the police academy...how he got in there with a Section 8 I will never know...

[AlCzervik]

50. My nephew redeploys in 5 days, he's already done one tour and a year in

Afghanistan and this time the sense of dread is worse, his normally calm parents including my BIL who was a Col. in Army are scared shitless this time.

[SaveAmerica]

57. And what if there's something in the works for after Iraq (or while Iraq

is going on?). I don't put anything past Bush and Rumsfeld, he has to be prepared to do what the commander in chief orders him to do without question. They don't think twice about abusing their authority, is he able to go along with their illed-planned next adventure? My kids had planned on joining their long line of relatives who proudly served but I'm reminding them of this important aspect and suggesting they wait until there is a commander in chief and secretary of defense who have an inkling of what duty, honor, and country mean.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. True experience my niece

she wanted to be an MP, she is working supply in the AF because she did not pass the physical

Also tell your nephew that most PDs you don't need a college degree, just pass the physical and go to the academy, though he will have to wait until he is 21 (by the time he is sworn in) so take the time to get physically fit, and take Criminal Justice, he will have the time to get his AA before the Academy.

Oh and my husband is a cop... in his graduating class there WAS a 21 year old kid, who is very mature. Oh and he did 20 in the Navy and he got out becuase these bastards have made it impossible even for the Navy.. the up tempo is insane

[Parche]

73. military

The military is a great place for young people

But not while GW Bush is in power
That is what I told my nephew, and now he is planning
to go to college...so I think I saved him

[liberalitch]

74. Tell him that you can shoot at him right here at home if he wants