Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Debunking the NOLA School Bus Myth

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:16 PM
Original message
Debunking the NOLA School Bus Myth
I haven't been able to keep up with all the developments lately, so I think I missed something re: Katrina and NOLA.

Yesterday or today on Stehanie Miller, she mentioned Hannity's claims about the school buses in NOLA. She went on to say that this had been completely debunked, and I think she said "in a variety of ways" or "by a variety of people" - can't remember specifically, but it was something like that. I had heard the original buses story but not any subsequent follow-up to disprove it.

I searched Snopes, but their article on the buses is basically non-commital and avoids the factual issues. Can someone please either
1)explain to me how the original school bus story has been debunked
or
2)point me to the stories that debunk it.

Thanks!

Mostly

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Media Matters
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:48 PM
Original message
That helps. Debunks the "2000" number. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radar Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Think Progress.org has some stuff
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The first helps...
I could swear Steph. said something about how Nagin didn't have authority to actually use the buses or something. That was what really piqued my interest.

Mostly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Some Thoughts...
I remember hearing Mayor Nagin interviewed on WWL regarding this matter. This was during the height of the crisis and when the first charges of "flooded busses" were to come out.

He stated that the busses earmarked for evacuation, according to the plan, was Mass Transit, not school busses. The busses were better suited for long haul driving and the pool of drivers on call was larger.

Also, there was a report that those busses, in a yard near the 9th ward, was an old bus yard...either busses that were not operating or were in need of repair. The address checks out to a repair facility. Nagin had stated busses had been staggered throughout the city...but that the time and speed of the flooding made any use of the busses impossible.

Lastly, my long-held contention...and borne out by the now all-but-forgotten mess in Houston last week. Where were those busses supposed to go? Just get on I-10 and keep going? Plus imagine clogging up the already congested roads out of New Orleans with 1,000 or 5,000 barely roadworth school busses?

Focusing on this meme diverts attention from the real questions as to why it took so long for food, water and other life support services to arrive to desperate Americans trapped inside an American city. Why did it take 5 days? This is the question you should be asking!

Peace...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Focusing on this meme...
While I won't argue that this small issue is a distraction from larger issues related to Katrina, I wanted to know simply because I wasn't aware of any response re: the original story. I hate not knowing what people are talking about. Not because I'm obsessing over it, but simply because I want to know.

I get the same way when I watch ESPN. They're constantly talking about "the incident involving <insert player's name here> from last Thursday" and I'm all "What incident? There was an incident?" I hate not knowing the whole story.

And it's even worse when the story is one that's being used to prop up ridiculous claims by the right.

Mostly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Also the Greyhound offer of "free" buses was turned down by FEMA
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 12:46 PM by papau
I guess one needs to subcontract via Haliburton lest the Bush folks might leave a dime or two in the tax payer's (or tax payer's kids via National Debt) wallet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Hadn't heard that. Can you source it? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. talking heads after the storm hit asking why offers of buses were turned
down - the name "Greyhound" was mentioned as one that offerred up assets as a civic duty and was told to wait and then "no"

I have no links to transcripts unfortunately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Some additional thoughts
1. The busses belong to the school district, not the city. Nagin had no authority to order their use.

2. Who was going to drive them, the moms who take kids to and from school as a part time job?

3. Nagin also did not have authority to ship his cizizens out of his jurisdiction (RTA), he used the busses available to him to move people to shelters within the city.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Follow-up questions...
"1. The busses belong to the school district, not the city. Nagin had no authority to order their use."

This, I think, must be the point S. Miller was making in a very shorthanded way. Do you know much about how the relationship between Nagin and the school district would have worked? I live in Cols, OH and have no idea whether our mayor could commandeer the city's school buses if he needed or wanted to.

If it really comes down to Nagin having no authority to order the buses, that seems like a 100% debunk right there and the arguments about how many buses there were, etc are completely moot - could have been 1 bus for every person in the city and Nagin wouldn't have been able to do much due to lack of authority.

"2. Who was going to drive them, the moms who take kids to and from school as a part time job?"

Agreed. However. I think this is one of those points that makes sense but can't hold as the focus of an argument because the other side can always "What if..." you: "But if Nagin HAD used the buses, who's to say how many of those drivers would have done their duty and showed up." So, sadly, this is a good point that can't find footing.

"3. Nagin also did not have authority to ship his cizizens out of his jurisdiction (RTA), he used the busses available to him to move people to shelters within the city."

Hadn't thought about that - tell me more. Is this a verified fact? That would be a GREAT piece to use in an argument because it appeals to the right's fealty to local politics and autonomy. This, to me, seems like a significant rhetorical buttress to the idea that the "2000" buses meme is not only a myth, but a completely baseless fallacy.

Mostly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. My replies
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 03:56 PM by never cry wolf
1. I don't know the relationship nor do I have time to research it but they are separately elected bodies paid for out of separate funding. The buses were owned by the school district. Who would pay for the gas? Who would assume the liability (FEMA would not allow school buses to be used after the fact because there surely would be casualties from the heat in un-airconditioned buses.) Who would pay the drivers, assuming they could be found. He would have no more right to commandeer these buses that to comandeer a chevy dealers stock.

2. I think this is a very valid argument. The vast majority of school bus drivers are part time, they are not professional bus drivers. They drive a few miles in the morning and afternoon and maybe a cross town football game. These people have families too and were evacuating them. Do you think a mom who works part time and has 3 kids would feel a sense of duty to leave them in a time of crisis? The school buses and drivers are designed for their use, short local trips.

3. Unless arrangements were made beforehand, how could he make another community accept his citizens? Heck, Gretna armed police wouldn't let NOLA citizens into Gretna.

on edit: Let me add that 75% - 80% of the area was successfully evacuated. That is unprecedented for a major US city. In the disaster planning it was expected that 65% would be about the best that could be expected. Someone did something right.
Another thing to consider is that each bus trip would be one way only. Even if you could find the drivers, and found some willing to return they would not have been allowed to.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
41. Never Crry Wolf:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your points were somehow invalid or meaningless. If I did, that was my mistake and I apologize.

I'm really just trying to get factual information re: the whole bus issue because I want to know, if for no other reason than my own satisfaction. That's it - it hasn't come up between me and a rightie in conversation (thankfully, I work with other liberals and those who are politically ambivalent). I just wanted to know for my own sense of perspective on the situation.

I saw the now-infamous picture of buses in a flooded lot and my first reaction was "that doesn't seem right". Then Stephanie Miller mentioned that it had been debunked and I couldn't find anything, so I hopped onto DU to see if any other users could steer me in the right direction.

When I asked if you knew, factually, that Nagin could have commandeered the buses, I was really just asking because I thought you might know, not because I wanted you to do the research for me. It seems like this is, at minimum, debatable (see post #15 for a differing viewpoint) as an argument. That's really what I was trying to get at - is the idea that Nagin could not have used the buses a proven and verified fact, or a "speculative fact". Like I said, I started this topic because I wanted to know for myself, so it's an important distinction to make: verified fact v. speculative fact.

As to point 2, I guess well have to agree to disagree. As I said, I think it's a valid and important point BUT I differ with you in the sense that I don't think it's a really strong rhetorical argument because it's open to speculation: "Well, IF Nagin had ordered the buses into use, who's to say the drivers wouldn't have shown up." So it's not that I disagree with the point, it's that I see it as problematic when used as an argumentative device, that's all.

Point number 3, as I said, is a good one but again it goes back to actual fact v. speculative fact. I think it's a very good point that he could not have ordered a city to accept his own city's evacuees. And that's probably iron clad, as an argument, without any supporting evidence. I think most people would get the fact that one city's mayor has no right to impel another city's mayor to accept evacuees. It's just that I hate to get involved in arguments where I'm using arguments that I can't back up with provable fact, etc. Chalk it up to growing up in a house full of legal rhetoric and such.

So, for what's it's worth, my apologies for any offense caused, because none was meant.

Mostly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Oh no offense taken.... np ....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Sorry but Nagin had authority to commander private or public resources.
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 04:44 PM by jody
§727. Powers of the parish president; penalties for violations
"(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the local disaster"

Under that same law, Nagin had authority to "(5) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the boundaries of the parish if he deems this action necessary for mitigation, response, or recovery measures."

Blanco declared a state of emergency under that law on 26 Aug 05. See CHAPTER 6. THE LOUISIANA HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE AND DISASTER ACT that includes the §724. Powers of the governor

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks, duly corrected
I didn't know that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The only resources he could commander were those that belonged
to the City of NO.

He could not commander shelter in other cities or states to take his evacuees. That was up to the state and Feds to oversee. Plus the school buses are not appropriate for the 8 hours estimated road time between NO and Baton Rouge because of the lack of AC and bathrooms.

Besides, Nagin did evacuate 80% of city using the resources he had available which is 20% more then anyone thought was possible.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Governor Blanco had authority under the law I cited "(4) Subject to
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 05:11 PM by jody
any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency."

See §724. Powers of the governor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Nagin asked for buses
and HS/FEMA told him they were on the way. Then HS/FEMA sent them somewhere else instead.

Blanco and Nagin did their job while BushCo couldn't bother to interupt their vacations.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You've changed the issue, post # 8 said "Nagin had no authority to order
their use", i.e. school buses.

I cited the Louisiana law that gave Nagin authority to commandeer public and private resources within his jurisdiction.

Please tell me what part of the following don't you understand?
QUOTE
(2) Utilize all available resources of the local government as reasonably necessary to cope with the local disaster or emergency.
* * * * * * * *
(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the local disaster.
UNQUOTE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Sorry, but school buses are not private property
Nice try.

So many helpful DUer sticking up for the right wing fucking murders.

Anyway, to get the school buses or other property of any other government subdivision, he has to go through--this is almost funny in a terribly sick sort of way--he has to go through: FEMA.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. I cited the Louisiana law that gave Nagin authority to commandeer
private resources within his jurisdiction.

That same act also said "(2) Utilize all available resources of the local government as reasonably necessary to cope with the local disaster or emergency."

Nagin had authority to use public and private resources as I said.

Have you read Louisiana law on the topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Weembo Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. I don't see where that said that a mayor had the right
Only the parish president or the governor. Nagin is neither.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Please read definitions for the law I cited. It says:
QUOTE
(5) "Parish president" means the president of any parish, mayor-president, mayor of New Orleans (Orleans Parish), or police jury president.
UNQUOTE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. The bus problem identifies planning failures at local, state, & federal
levels and paralysis of execution by the three responsible executives; mayor, governor, and president; when unexpected contingencies occurred.

Of the three, Bush had the most resources and was the most incompetent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The mayor & governer were not 100% perfect...
As they dealt with the storm.

But Bush only interrupted his vacation for a trip to California before he finally pretended to pay attention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I agree completely. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. What failure?
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 05:02 PM by DoYouEverWonder
80% of the people were evacuated.

Everything fell apart after the storm when the Federal Government decided to withhold resources and assistance.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I guess we disagree, I see some failures while you see all successes. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The evacuation was a success
It was the disaster response by the Federal Government that was a miserable failure.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I believe the people in the Superdome and Convention Center who were not
evacuated would disagree with you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Do you enjoy this?
The city of N.O executed it's emergency plan. It has been known for a very long time that the city cannot be entirely evacuated. The city is responsible under all previous plans for 48-72 hours, after which FEMA and the federal government is to step in an provide assistance.

We all know how well that went.

Sheesh.

Hurry , you're missing Hannity.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Apparently you agree "The evacuation was a success". Do you enjoy that? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Have your read the plan?
I suspect not.

Do you, or have you lived in New Orleans or the metro area.

It has always been understood that it is physically impossible to get everyone out.

If you bother to read my blog, or other posts on DU, you will discover that there aren't enough busses in all of New Orleans (including those of the school board) to take every one out.

So who, in your queenly wisdom, would you have left behind? Probably (since most people in New Orleans) you would have left behind the weakest, who couldn't fight there way onto a bus. You would have left behind those who refused evacuation and started to walk home from work because their normal bus was diverted, and they weren't about to leave their children or elderly parent alone across town. You would have left behind the very people you profess to care about.

Katrina was the worst case scenario, and those who they always anticipated would not or could not leave suffered terribly.

But those who left them there to suffer and die will pay not any penalty if you have your way. You will successful spread the Big Lie and muddle the issue until cold blooded killing goes unpunished.

Why am I having the same conversation I've had twice with the host of our local Two Hour Hate with a registered DUer with 1,000 plus posts?





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yes I've read the plan, have you? Go to
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You haven't answered my question. Pick 66,000 people
and leave them there.

Who do you choose?

(P.S.--Yes I've read both the city and state plans, and the disaster act. I don't notice where it confers the magical power to conjure buses and driver. The state plan allows as how someone in the mayor's position may use school buses. The agreed upon procedure was if you want things from another political subdivision, and in Louisiana the schools are an independent government agency outside the city's authority, one is supposed to go through FEMA. Isn't that a hoot?)

Might I ask what good you hope to accomplish for the advancement of Democratic politics by repeating GOP nonsense?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I'm not here to answer your questions, I said "The bus problem identifies
planning failures at local, state, & federal levels and paralysis of execution by the three responsible executives; mayor, governor, and president; when unexpected contingencies occurred." That is an indisputable fact.

You harm our Democratic Party when you ignore basic truths.

Thanks for the exchange.

Goodbye :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Gosh, but you do sound just like my local right wing radio host
Sorry have facts interfere with your conclusions.

Again, there are not enough buses, even with school buses, to get more than 1/3 of the carless people out of New Orleans. And that is presuming that the mayor has some power to compel those school bus drivers not to evacuate.

If you insist that the buses should have been used in the evacuation, you shall damn well tell me which 66,000 people you would leave behind and why.

Or apologize.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. Whew! Thought we were wasting time on an insignificant RW talking point
again.

Good thing we're too smart to play thier game!! :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Oh, well, pardon me.
I'm not "playing their game". I'm asking questions - since when is an honest query playing into RW hands? Is that how far we've gone down the rabbit hole - we're no longer allowed to ask questions to sate our own need to know because those questions aren't important? Questions, I might add, spurred by listening to a LIBERAL talk show host.

Pardon me for wanting "information" or to fully understand all sides of an argument. It's part of my nature as an evolved human to seek answers to those things I don't know or understand. By now, I can't believe I haven't glommed onto the nascent, ever-growing sentiment here on DU that the only good posts are those that mindlessly seek "Me too" replies. I must be pretty dumb, huh?

Pardon me for lack of knee-jerk defense of all Democrats. I'm not on this board because I'm a Democrat - I'm here because I'm a liberal. I hold no loyalty to either side, Dem or Rep, when they fuck up, nor do I shirk from kudos when either side, Dem or Rep, gets something right. There's more than enough culpability in the Katrina situation to go around and I'm not going to play dumb "it was all the Republicans' fault" games until I have more information.

Pardon me for asking such a loaded question as "what are the facts?" How very sublimely Freeperish of me - asking for information that would rebut and refute their claims. I must be a master of subterfuge, what with the allowing other members of DU to help me understand an issue. What kind of game am I playing? It's so subtle, even I don't get it. Maybe you could help me.

In conclusion: Pardon me for not having received your approved list of valid questions, righteous answers, reasonable inquiries and taboo topics. I must have been reading other threads that day.

Mostly



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Well said.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. Regarding those darned buses...
The NOLA evacuation plan was followed, and 500 city and school buses were called on to evacuate people to the areas that were selected to house people (i.e., the Superdome).

Like many cities, New Orleans had such an evacuation plan. City officials knew that approximately 100,000 city residents had no personal transportation, and their intent was to use public buses to ferry them to safety.

It was a plan filled with flaws, and New Orleans officials knew it.

A test of the plan last summer during a simulated Category 3 hurricane revealed that as many as 300,000 people might remain trapped in the city, many for lack of private transportation, according to a report by Louisiana State University. A national review of hurricane evacuation plans by the university's Hurricane Center in 2001 determined that plans to use buses, especially in New Orleans, were inadequate because existing fleets could accommodate only a fraction of those needing help.

As Katrina bore down on New Orleans two weeks ago, little had been done to fix that shortage, experts said. New Orleans' plan called for about 500 city and school buses to hit the streets. But it did not include provisions for driving people out of the city. Instead, the few buses that made the rounds at 12 pickup points simply delivered the poor, the disabled and the elderly to the Superdome, which had inadequate provisions.

One major problem was that the plan contained no details for deploying drivers, especially those who pilot school buses, said Chester Wilmot, an LSU professor who consulted on the city's plan. In addition, the plan neglected to designate shelter outside New Orleans.

"It failed," Wilmot said. "The plan didn't go into the detail that is necessary."

The statewide plan in Louisiana for evacuating people with access to private transportation was a success, however, guiding 800,000 to 1 million people to safety outside New Orleans.


Cont'd
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.evacuate12sep12,1,431498.story?page=1&coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

As ineffective as that was, that was the plan and that was the plan that NOLA created with FEMA's input, as I understand it.

'Hurricane Pam' exercise offered glimpse of Katrina misery

Friday, 6 p.m.

By John McQuaid
Staff writer

The document’s cover page reads: “Southeast Louisiana Catastrophic Hurricane Functional Plan.”

It maps out detailed instructions for emergency managers responding to a deadly hurricane that floods all of New Orleans, killing more than 60,000: how to rescue and evacuate hundreds of thousands of people stranded on rooftops or trapped by rising waters; how to quickly mobilize federal, state and local agencies; how to drain water laced with toxic sludge and clean up a ruined city.

But officials never put this plan into action...

~snip~

The exercise grew out of an initiative at the Federal Emergency Management Agency started early in the Bush presidency to develop plans for the worst possible disasters that could hit the United States.

~snip~

It assumes a high degree of coordination between federal, state, and local officials – something that has been a thorny issue in Katrina. But Jones said the Pam exercise was valuable simply because it drew everyone involved together to sit down face-to-face – something that is paying off now.

The report recommends a massive mobilization of transportation assets to evacuate the region after the hurricane has passed, another problem that plagued response last week. “A major limiting factor in executing this plan will be a shortage of transportation facilities,” it says.

For example, it says that 400 buses per day would be needed to transport an estimated half-million storm victims out of the affected area to temporary medical facilities set up some distance away. Katrina victims waited for days for buses or other transport out of the city.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_09.html


BTW, if you haven't read this report, I highly recommend it:

http://www.walterbrasch.com/katrina.htm

Here's an excerpt concerning those darned buses:

SPECIAL REPORT:
‘Unacceptable’: The Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina
by Walter Brasch

~snip~

An attack that quickly spread throughout the conservative blogs, websites, and talk shows, focused upon Nagin for not using than 300 school buses and more than 300 city buses for evacuation. Pictures of yellow school buses, surrounded by flood water, became a battle anthem to attack local government. However, the Mayor would have had to find certified drivers who had not already evacuated the city and whose own homes were not about to be buried by the flood. Further, he would have had to have found a place to take those evacuated by bus. By the time mass shelters outside the flood zone were able to handle large numbers of evacuees, the buses were surrounded by water. Nagin’s demand to the federal government was justified. He told WWL-AM:

One of the briefings we had they were talking about getting . . . public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here. . . . I'm like—you've got to be kidding me. This is a natural disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans.


In most instances, the local governments couldn’t be faulted. In such a widespread disaster, it is the responsibility of state and federal emergency management agencies to coordinate assistance for the local level. But, more important, because the Bush Administration was pushing a terrorist prevention agenda and neglecting other disasters, local and state governments had figured out that to get the abundant federal grant money, they had to place an emphasis on anti-terrorist training and to buy equipment more suited to the threat of terrorism than to protection against natural disasters. The other main problem was that FEMA was working less and less with local and state governments. To prepare against a catastrophic natural disaster, the federal government needed to help local and state governments understand what was needed and to help fund it. It didn’t.

Michael Chertoff told the media in Washington, D.C., according to the Washington Post, that FEMA’s response was slow because “our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor.” He was wrong. The National Response Plan directs FEMA to “ prepare for, respond to, and recover an incident or potential incident is of such severity, magnitude, and/or complexity that it is considered an Incident of National Significance.” FEMA does not have to wait for local or state officials to request its assistance. That plan also allows the Department of Defense to provide immediate assistance, even if not requested by local authorities. Two days before Katrina hit land, President Bush, upon strong recommendations of the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, which had already issued their own declarations of emergency and requests for federal assistance, had declared a “state of emergency,” which should have moved FEMA into action.

To mitigate criticism of the slow federal response, the Bush administration asked Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco to turn over her state’s National Guard and to cede all authority to the federal government. Well aware that such a move would have led not only to the Bush Administration trumpeting that the local and state governments were mostly at fault for the problems resulting from the disaster, but also of the establishment of martial law, Blanco declined. Before returning to Louisiana one week after Katrina came ashore, Bush not only didn’t have the courtesy to tell the Governor the schedule, but deliberately chose not to meet with her to discuss how best to proceed with the rescue and recovery. Blanco, however, learned the President’s schedule, met him at the airport, and forced a 90-minute meeting...

~snip~


And, Hmmm....about those OTHER buses:

The school bus issue is really old hat now, and is really just a way of diverting attention from the bigger problem: Where was FEMA?

September 20, 2005
EVACUATING NEW ORLEANS....One of the great and enduring mysteries about the aftermath of Katrina has been the Great Bus Question. Where were they? Why weren't they used to immediately evacuate the Superdome and the Convention Center? National Review posed this question vividly — and tacitly placed the blame for the lack of buses on local officials, not FEMA — by filling its cover with a famous photo of a fleet of New Orleans schoolbuses trapped and useless in three feet of water after the storm passed.

A couple of days ago, Michelle Millhollon of the Baton Rouge Advocate got Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco's side of the story:

Hours after the hurricane hit Aug. 29, the Federal Emergency Management Agency announced a plan to send 500 commercial buses into New Orleans to rescue thousands of people left stranded on highways, overpasses and in shelters, hospitals and homes.

On the day of the storm, or perhaps the day after, FEMA turned down the state's suggestion to use school buses because they are not air conditioned, Blanco said Friday in an interview.

....The state had sent 68 school buses into the city on Monday. Blanco took over more buses from Louisiana school systems and sent them in on Wednesday, two days after the storm. She tapped the National Guard to drive them.

....On Wednesday, with the FEMA buses still not in sight, Blanco called the White House to talk to Bush and ended up speaking to Chief of Staff Andy Card....Card promised to get Blanco more buses.

...."I had security in the knowledge that there were 500 buses," she said. "Mike had emphasized the buses to me personally. That was not my first concern until I realized that they were not there."

Meanwhile, the state continued to send school buses into the affected areas.

One of Blanco's aides, Leonard Kleinpeter, said FEMA told him at one point that the state could stop sending school buses because the agency was going to bring in helicopters and use them instead of the commercial buses that still weren't there.

Blanco told Kleinpeter to ignore those instructions.


Is this the straight dope? It's certainly free of any wiggle room if Blanco isn't telling the truth. Will we ever hear FEMA's side of this, or has that chance disappeared completely with Mike Brown's resignation? —Kevin Drum


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007170.php

Here's the original:
Blanco says feds pledged buses

By MICHELLE MILLHOLLON

Capitol news bureau

Nearly three weeks after Hurricane Katrina raged ashore, Gov. Kathleen Blanco still wants one question answered.
Where were the buses?

Hours after the hurricane hit Aug. 29, the Federal Emergency Management Agency announced a plan to send 500 commercial buses into New Orleans to rescue thousands of people left stranded on highways, overpasses and in shelters, hospitals and homes.

On the day of the storm, or perhaps the day after, FEMA turned down the state's suggestion to use school buses because they are not air conditioned, Blanco said Friday in an interview.

Even after levees broke and residents were crowding the Louisiana Superdome, then-FEMA Director Mike Brown was bent on using his own buses to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco said.


http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Thank you, sir
Why are so many people on DU (and elsewhere) buying into the Republican spin?

I think there is more than an undercurrent of racism all through our society. People are inclined by everything they've been taught to believe the nonsense they're being told about New Orleans, because of the people involved.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. There was another point that the Mayor made right after the hurrican hit.
Those school busses are NOT air conditioned, and he didn't feel it was safe to put already ill people on the highway, in 90+ degree temps, only to have them die on the busses!

I also heard there were 20+ people uncoicious on a non-airconditioned bus while trying to evacuate Houston.

I only heard these reports once on CNN, but both make sense to me!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Thanks, I'll read these during lunch today. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. The bus drivers were told to evacuate...and most did
The RTA bus drivers (city buses) were used to evacuate people. The school bus drivers either evacuated or stayed to protect their homes.

Mass trans buses WERE used...the school bus drivers are not professionals and either left or stayd at their homes...

Next!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
40. It takes more than busses.
1. You need drivers. Many of the drivers had already left. Allowing ordinary, untrained, people to drive the busses is an invitation to disaster. Yes, I am well aware of that one kid that stold a bus and managed to drive it safely. However, if you take a hundred untrained people to drive the bus, SOMEBODY will screw up. Then the lawyers pounce on the city for allowing untrained people to drive busses.

2. You need a place to bus people to. You don't just run them to some town, open the doors, dump them on a street corner and go back to get some more. You need shelters to take them to.

3. The places that you take them to have to be waaaay inland. That means a loooong trip. Given short the warning time that Katrina gave, it would have meant two trips at the most for each bus.

4. Getting stuck in traffic for the hurricane was a very real danger. All routes out of N.O. lead over very long bridges, or through lots of swamp. As it turned out, the traffic was gone before the hurricane got there, but that could not be predicted.

So whether there were a bunch of busses available means nothing. There is much more to an evacuation then just getting people out of a city.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I agree it takes more than just buses however LA had shelter plans
that were activated by Gov. Blanco's declaration of a state of emergency on Friday, 26 Aug 05, before Katrina hit land at 6:10 am on Monday, 29 Aug 05.

Katrina was upgraded to a category 2 hurricane at 11:30 AM EDT on 26 Aug 05 which caused Blanco to declare an emergency.

The plans are:

EOP Supplement 1a - Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation & Sheltering Plan

EOP Supplement 1b - Southwest Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation & Sheltering Plan

EOP Supplement 1c - Shelter Plan

It seems that Blanco did her job on time. If failures occurred in Louisiana, it would have been in executing plans at the local and state level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Those plans assumed the leeves would hold.
If the leeves had held, then N.O. would have been held up as a model of how to handle a major hurricane, and Houston would not have over-reacted. After the storm had passed, everybody would have gone home and electric crews would have worked to get power back. It would have been a routine bad hurricane, like we have seen many times.

The leeve breeches caused all the problems, not the hurricane directly, although the storm did cause the breeches.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. The plan expected that levees in the Greater New Orleans Metropolitan
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 02:21 PM by jody
area might fail, see PART II: SITUATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS.

QUOTE
A. SITUATIONS
* * * * * * * * * * *
4. The Area is protected by an extensive levee system, but above-normal water levels and hurricane surge could cause levee overtopping or failures.
UNQUOTE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I accept the correction.
Then in that case, the plans were inadequate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. The plans are vague generalities, little thought given to resources needed
When all was said and done, more was said than done. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC