PNAC and why we are in this mess

[nadinbrzezinski]

(To Mods this deals with far more than the Israeli Palestinian issue)

Ok, ok we have heard it, we are in Iraq because of Israel... no, we are not. Anybody who has bothered to read all the dry white papers at their site knows the reason we are in Iraq is... because they have our oil under their sand.

Yes I know all the conspiracy theories that Mossed is there and Jews were not there on 9.11... yes I've heard all of them,

Now lets try to explain something, PNAC was formed in 1998, but their ideas, including Pre-Emptive war, go back quite a bit longer. I don't know how many of you remember that Paul Wolfowitz was under Secretary of Defense under Sec Def Chenney. I don't know if many of you remember a 1992 New York Times Article that was literally a shot that rang around the world. In this article, an op ed truly, Wolfowitz proposed a more muscular approach to US Foreign policy, including the use of the armed forces. In many ways that Op Ed, which Wolfowitz had to take with him into "exile" after President Clinton was sworn in, had all the bullet points of PNAC. Nowhere in that article was the mention of securing the Middle East for Israel... what was in that article was securing geo strategic energy areas for the United States... yes it was about oil...

Now how do you sell an Imperial Policy? Com'on people think.

Jews: we are in there for Israel
Fundies: Armageddon
Joe Six Pack: Sadamn was WMDs (never mind Sadam had nothing to do with 9.11)
The Rabid RW: Hey we get to blow some aryabs and prove we are superior.

and so on.. listen to all the messages on why we are going to war... try to remember that far back, everybody heard what they wanted to hear.

Now lets be honest if they came and told you, ok folks we need to fight this war because quite frankly we are running out of oil and we don't control it China will kill us... is too complex and most Americans would have said ... YOU NUTS? Granted it would have been refreshing but these Straussians don't work that way.

Now I am not going to defend Israel's actions in the ME... they are at times quite indefensible, but so are the actions of Hamas.. but we are not in the ME for Israel. Now let me ask you all something, all who think that we are there for Israel, let me posit you a scenario... the true radicals in the ME on the arab side, actually accomplish what they have wanted to do since oh... 1948 and drive all them pesky Jews to the sea or just kill them man, woman and child... how fast do you people think we would be leaving the Middle East? If you are honest, you will admit we won't leave until the last drop of usable oil is extracted from under their sands.

This war is about geo strategic interests and the ME just happens to be it, (once again). We have been intervening in their internal affairs for decades and not to defend Israel, they did not become a client sate of the US until 1967. In fact, due to the wonderful Socialist policies of the very Young State, the Truman White House did not want to support Israel and Israel came this close to falling under the Soviet Sphere of Influence... now that would have been a nice what if... Israel became a Client State of the Soviets and Egypt a client state of the United States, but that is a what if scenario... it did not happen because of 1956 and the brits.

Now what is happening is that wittingly or unwittingly a mythology has risen that places Israel as the central reason for this mess, which is convenient for now Jews are at times accused of being Israelis first and Americans second... seen this song and dance. The Palestinians and the Israelis have a role to play in this mess but best case scenario it is a tertiary role and if there was no oil under them sands, nobody would give a hoot. This is driving many Jews to the Right, go ahead keep doing this and one day you may ask why is it that Jews who always voted Democratic, all of a sudden are voting Republican? You may want to remember the last five years. I think it is foolish for these fascists will use these votes and then discard them or blame them, but that is another story. The fact is, many Jews who otherwise are naturally allied to left wing causes, feel that the seat at the table is not there. So slowly but surely they are being radicalized to the right. And no, most American Jews are not politically aware or Likudniks... they believe Israel has a right to survive, but if you ask most American jews to explain you the issues, beyond the propaganda, they will have lots of trouble putting a coherent statement together. For the record the same happens most American Palestinians... and we are into sounbytes of why we should hate each other.. if you wonder I am Jewish and one of my friends is palestinian, and we have discussed this many a times... and how the Palestinian cause will be eschewed as soon as is onnvenient... we have also reached an agreement, this is an issue for the people IN THE REGION to fix... not us.

Now let me deal with the next issue... Al Qa ida and Hammas are NOT part of the same terror network, as much as our lovely propaganda channels have successfully linked Al Qa ida, Hamas and even the PLO, they ear not the same. For starters AQ cause is to fight the great Satan, that is us... and to drive us from Arabya and to get rid of the House of Saud, and spread the wealth to the people. Al Qa ida is also convinced that they can create a new caliphate and defeat the US... after all they are the reason that the USSR fell... I am talking of mythology here, not reality, as AQ is in many ways of our own making. They also know our play book and they are very dangerous... and so far they have actually succeeded, we are almost out of Arabia... by the way... oh and the principal event for the formation of AQ is Gulf War 1 and the fact the House of Saud told OBL no, and instead took Christian troops in.. by the way Titan and Caci are STILL training the Saudi National Guard... that should make you nervous... and Western Oil Companies are still there, and if the House of Saud ever falls, rumor has it, they will blow up the infrastructure... what is more SA may have reached peak oil this year, so their strategic value will go down... slowly, but it will.

Hammas they have discovered religion and it sells well, but they did not start as a religious group... they were quite secular and they are the descendants of the Arab Militias that were formed during the Lebanese Civil War... over the years they have morphed due to political and regional events, such as Israel's invasion of Southern Lebanon and the creation of the Phalangist militia. By the way, many recognize that invasion as a strategic mistake on the part of Israel... the US and France... and one reason why some of the groups hate the west... of course they also hate the west because of the summer of 1919 but that is another ball of wax and will take books to cover correctly and well.

The PLO, there are literally volumes written on them and all their splinter groups.. what is clear is that they are SECULAR and AQ cannot stand secular groups. Why do you think the PLA is having a heck of a time establishing authority in the Territories? They are corrupt but Hamas is not (really) and Hamas has established clinics.. again another ball of wax on how you win hearts and minds and radicalize a population.

As to Israel, it has its own demons to contend with, but I will contend quite clearly that every time people scream at a demonstration FREE PALESTINE.. not understanding the complexities of the conflict, they are actually playing into the message management that keeps you distracted from the true cause of PNAC... which once again, repeat after me is about oil and peak oil and who controls the resources and whose economy will survive and whose economy will not... hence why you must start paying attention to the real reason we are there, and to China and to all the alliances being formed because everybody knows, we are running out of oil and he who controls it will control the world stage for the next 20 years... and this is not a game...

Oh and by the way we COULD have divided those resources without 1900 + US Troops and 100,000 Iraqis killed... but the oil men who are running this and going, see shiny bauble, don't play well with others, so they decided to engage in a pure resource war... the kind this world has not seen since oh WW I- WW II, which some historians see as a continuum. Yes WW II was a resource war or you all have forgotten one reason that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor? Did I mention Oil?

[PowerToThePeople]

1. PNAC- Project to Neuter/Negate the American Constitution. n/t

[mike_c]

2. kicked and nominated....

Excellent post! NB, you might want to edit the typo near the top-- I presume you meant "pre-emptive war," not "pre-emotive war."

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. dione

thanks, I do need an editor from time to time

[acmavm]

4. Wolfie has been called the most dangerous man on this earth today.

And with good reason.

But then again, they're ALL totally unhinged. From Wolfie clear down to the drooling fanatics like little Dougie Feith.

And yes, Israel does have a lot to do with it. But the oil is the main attraction for these clowns. Anyway that's what I believe. And I'm sticking to it.

[valerief]

6. I think the next big march should have a lot of comb sucking

in deference to Mr. Danger Man.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. Chemical Engineering 101 (Industrial Stoichiometry)

If "X" is 1000 times bigger the "Y" - you can usually ignore "Y" in your calculations of the effect/role of "X". "Y" is lost in "slide rule error" or "round off error."

You posted: "And yes, Israel does have a lot to do with it. But the oil is the main attraction for these clowns. Anyway that's what I believe. And I'm sticking to it."

Comparing oil's role to Israel's role - to put it in "oil patch vernacular" --- "Israel wouldn't make a good pimple on a tool pusher's butt cheek."

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. this group does not care about Israel

this is so much about Israel that if Israel is no longer useful, they will stand back while they are driven to the sea... they will use whatever means they can or have to in order to achieve their pure goal to control OIL... this is about OIL, keep your eye on the ball.

But they smile when people go, FREE PALESTINE... see shiny bauble, the people are distracted.

[Coastie for Truth]

25. "Anyway that's what I believe. And I'm sticking to it."

I'm considered an ignorant boor on account of because I are a injunear and didn't have to take but 30 credits of librul arts. But a librul arts major can screw off in the student union - not take no science or technology (cept maybe how to use windoz and word) -- and just lots of underwater basket weaving - and he is considered "edcated."

Life ain't fair.

[annabanana]

44. (who attacked you?)

just curious...

[Coastie for Truth]

47. Was specifically directed at a previous appender's

conclusory comment made without backup or references, viz., "Anyway that's what I believe. And I'm sticking to it." - certainly not the Progressiveism of Hubert Humphrey or Adlai Stevenson.

[acmavm]

46. ?

.

[valerief]

5. Was there ever a non-resource war waged by the US?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. The better and more apropriate question is

was there ever a non resource war?

[valerief]

10. I guess it all depends which side of the wallet you're on

For the rich, it's always a resource war and the rich are the only ones who can call a war. The folks on the other side of the wallet, the poor, need those abstract reasons, like religion or honor or the rhetoric du jour.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. there you go

you need to convince the people to go to war... there is this famous quote atributed to Goering, and even if he did not say it, it is apropriate.

[valerief]

18. Your Goering quote

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. thanks,

and this is how this works

[Brother Buzz]

49. Goering - Strauss - Wolfowitz - PNAC

Herr Goering's blueprint was lifted by Leo Strauss and his philosophy thrives in the Bush administration's foreign policy which is entirely Straussian inspired (Wolfowitz is the #1 Straussian). Undoubtedly you will hear from people who will object to comparing our administration to the Nazi's, but truth be told, there really are many similarities, and they are being manifasted through PNAC. A study of Leo Strauss and his Straussian followers in the Bush* administration will shed some light on this huge deception perpetuated on this nation and the world. We would do well to learn more.

'Vilify the enemy' and 'The noble lie' (WMD) are the two leading Straussian tenets that were used to get us into this damn war and the sooner we educate the public and make the connection between the Straussians, the PNACers, and the Fascists, the better. Nobody listens to me because I've been discounted and marginalized as a commie pinko hippy socialist liberal homo-loving idiot that is giving aid and comfort to the enemy - see how easy our society is being manipulated?

Here are a few of of Strauss's tenets that illustrate how we are being manipulated:

•Strauss asserted "the natural right of the stronger" to prevail. But he was skeptical of triumphalism, and conscious of the dangers of foreign occupation. "Even the lowliest men prefer being subjects to men of their own people rather than to any aliens."

•Like Plato, Strauss taught that within societies, "some are fit to lead, and others to be led. But, unlike Plato, who believed that leaders had to be people with such high moral standards that they could resist the temptations of power, Strauss thought that "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right, the right of the superior to rule over the inferior".

•For Strauss, "religion is the glue that holds society together”. Irving Kristol, among other neo-conservatives, had argued that separating church and state was the biggest mistake made by the founders of the US republic. "Secular society in their view is the worst possible thing," because it leads to individualism, liberalism and relativism –– precisely those traits that might encourage dissent, which in turn could dangerously weaken society's ability to cope with external threats. "You want a crowd that you can manipulate like putty".

•He believed that "to make the world safe for the Western democracies, one must make the whole globe democratic, each country in itself as well as the society of nations."

•"Isolated liberal democracies live in constant danger from hostile elements abroad", and where policy advisers may have to deceive their own publics and even their ulers in order to protect their countries.

•"Perpetual deception of the citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be led, and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them”.

•Defending Western democracy against barbarous enemies was a natural right, but it was a right that entailed responsibility. The victor had the obligation to teach and transmit its values, not to impose them.

•As long ago as 1964, he recognized the tension that had accumulated "during the centuries in which Christianity and Islam each raised its universal claim but had to be satisfied with uneasily coexisting with its antagonist." Four decades later, nations at the heart of the two civilizations are engaging in a violent clash and — for the moment — the Westerners have won. (Huttington’s “Clash of Civilizations!)

•The fundamental aggressiveness of human nature could be restrained only through a powerful state based on nationalism. "Because mankind is intrinsically wicked, it has to be governed. Such governance can only be established, however, when men are united –– and they can only be united against other people."

•Strauss thought that a political order could be stable only if it was united by an external threat. If no external threat existed, then one had to be manufactured.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Thanks I have bothered to try to read some of

his writings Plato's Republic is readable, his are amazingly muddled, and that was on purpose... and people also need to understand the incubator for this was the Chicago School of Economics... I am not against freedom in education, but this is the danger we live with... when a bunch of true believers take power (regardless of the philosophy) and yes they are nazis.

[Brother Buzz]

54. Strauss was a compartmentalizer

His writings are truly muddled and intentionally confusing to the point of being unreadable. I think the idea was so simple, yet devisive; you can not be an elitist if you don't understand this crap, and nobody will admit not understanding it for fear of being shunned and turned away by the elitist cult club. A real conundrum - a Catch 22 moment.

I understand he kept his star students separate, and taught, or indoctrinated them with different versions: historians would get one story, economists another, while poli scientists still another - each given just parts of the puzzle. Their infighting and debate was the glue that held that crappy Straussian gibberish together and alive. Even from the grave, Leo Strauss is still the manipulator.

[CJCRANE]

72. Supremacism creates its opposite.

Good analysis.

Makes me wonder why these neo-fascists don't seem to learn from history:

The neocons are doing exactly what Hitler did - by taking on the world they are actually bringing America to its knees more effectively than anyone else could.

(Just an observation having recently watched "Downfall").

[leftchick]

42. that quote has been on my fridge for 3 years now...

I believe my two young sons finally ubderstand it.

[valerief]

55. I wish a certain 30% of the US understood it

[obxhead]

7. Kick

[still_one]

9. excellent post. The reason people link PNAC with Israel is because

many of the people involved in PNAC are Jewish, i.e. Richard Perle, and Paul Wolfowitz, to name just two obvious ones.

First of all let me state I am Jewish, and I detest everything that PNAC has done, and is trying to do. But most of all because when this is over, and the bums are finally thrown out, people will note that a large percentage of Jews are involved in PNAC, and they somehow speak for all Jews, which is blantly false.

I would hope people will remember that 70% of the Jews voted AGAINST bush in 2000 and 2004, and not to use a broad brush, to assume that the few speak for the many

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Which leads me to the next point

who does Bush pray to? How about Powell, Rice, Rumsfeld? People mention the religious believes of Wolfie and Feith, who are ass hats, but for the most part nobody cares what the rest of the ass hats are...

It is time we call a spade a spade, but the only reason people mention that Perle (who very technically has not been a member of the administration, very technically), Wolfie, Feith and some of the rest is a product of an internalized sense that we must mention them Jews in power. It is time to call it for what it is, the same kind of latent antisemitism that exists in Europe... and we Jews are part of the problem when we start going , but this administration (insert administration here) has this Jew in there. Ok that is the local boy who did good... but it is time to stop it, and consider that a true public servant (which none of these ass hats are), is in there to serve the American People, not a particular group... for the record for this goop they serve themselves and their quest for power.

[still_one]

37. absolutely, but this is what I hear at work, i.e. PNAC/Jews

I am able to correct it, but if you were to present it to the extreme left, or right, there would be no conviencing them

It is very interesting that when you reach the extremes at either end, they share many things in common

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. As i like to say it, they fall of the table and meet

each other, and both need enemies

[Coastie for Truth]

17. Query

Where did the following people celebrate their briss (ritual circumcision), celebrate their Bar Mitzvah, and sign their ketubah (jewish ritual pre-nuptial agreement)?

1. ExxonMobil CEO Lee Raymond
2. ExxonMobil President Rex Tillerson
3. TexacoChevron CEO David O'Reilly
4. Occidental Petroleum CEO Ray Irani?

BTW - I am a chemical engineer - and Lee Raymond, Rex Tillerson, David O'Reilly, and Ray Irani do not speak for me.

I am also Jewish - and Richard Perle, Larry Franklin, Dennis Feith, and Paul Wolfowitz don't speak for me either.

[still_one]

38. that is why we are here to point it out

[JohnyCanuck]

20. It's not just that some prominent PNACers are Jewish,

There's this too:

The Spies Who Pushed For War
Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

<snip>

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.

"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.

The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.

In 1996, he and Richard Perle - now an influential Pentagon figure - served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe. (emphasis added /jc)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Yes, yes they are

and the point is? Nobody cares what others are... their christianity does not come to bear...

And that is my point, we hear about those in power who are of the Jewish faith , we have for years... since WW II to be exact, but we don't hear about others

And that is part of the latent antisemitism that exists in Western Societies.

Personally they are Americans, who are doing amazing damage to this country... for OIL... and Geostrategic concerns... and what is worst, they believe they are doing the right thing... but that goes for ALL PNACers who are former Trotskytes and for the most part students of Leo Strauss.

The only time I will care about their faith is when they go to jail... if they keep Dietary laws... otherwise, I don't care, and neither should you.

[Just Me]

56. I am disturbed that people associate the likes of those extremists,...

,...with all Jewish people. It's no different than associating al Qaida with all Muslims or Jerry Falwell with all Christians.

Now, the interests of Israel is within the realm of geo-political planning by these extreme neo-CON imperialists. There can be no doubt about that. However, as you succinctly summarized, the anchor to the plan is all about geo-political and military and economic dominance: a global fascism/corporatocracy.

[still_one]

39. but keep in mind Clinton threw them out of his office

and so did every other administration before this idiot was elected

[ninkasi]

22. I'll make a deal with you

Don't blame me, as an American, for Chimps disastrous policies, and I won't blame ANY Jews for Israel's policies. This is much bigger than being affiliated, at peon level, with any particular policy. The ones who call the shots don't ask for our input, anyway. Yes, the few end up speaking for the many, and thus drive a wedge between us. I'm not buying it.

[still_one]

40. but unfortunately, in the eyes of most of the world

they believe the chimp speaks for us because he won two elections

[Coastie for Truth]

11. Some Back Up

DU Fora

1.

2.

Some Boring Geology Stuff

1. "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes

2. "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes

3. "Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein

4. "An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact" By: Anthony M. Evans

A very good, very readable introduction geology

Some General Reading

1. "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy" by Matthew R. Simmons

2. "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" by James Howard Kunstler --This one is popular with DUers

Counterpoint to Kunstler: "Winning the Oil Endgame" By: Amory B. Lovins. Persoally, I'm a Lovins optimist, and not a Kunstler malthusian pessimist.


3. "A Century Of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" by F. William Engdahl

4. "The Prize : The Epic Quest for Oil, Money & Power" by Daniel Yergin

5. "House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties" by Craig Unger

6. "Petrodollar Warfare : Oil, Iraq and the Future of the Dollar" by: William R. Clark

7. "Oil Addiction: The World in Peril" By: Pierre Chomat

8. "Secrets of the Kingdom: The Inside Story of the Secret Saudi-U.S. Connection" By: Gerald L. Posner

9. "The Exception to the Rulers : Exposing Oily Politicians, War Profiteers, and the Media That Love Them" By: Amy Goodman, David Goodman

Vanity

1. "Chemical Data Guide for Bulk Shipment by Water by U.S. Coast Guard
I was a project officer on the first edition, red, loose leaf binding

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. thanks you know the so many posts about

this is about israel have been bugging me for months... and I see the result when I see friends of mine who have had it with the rise in antisemitism

[annabanana]

45. try bringing up PNAC

on the Washington Journal, and see what you get accused of.

[deep_thwart]

23. Has anyone ever researched ...

regarding American investments in the pre-war Nazi economy. Were bankers and investors involved in pre-war Japan? And that, as Hitler conquered European nations, he was able to go to the Swiss Bank and obtain those nations' gold reserves?

It appears that these forces were at work back then, and probably before. Oil is a driving machine, backed up by the Military/Industrial complex. We can produce lots of military hardware, but unless it is expended, it would be a limited market. So, we go find some poor country that has oil > and "voila" our military shows up!

It appears that these "investors" will back anyone (many times both sides) in order to make their profits. But the windfall to their profits is > political dominance.

So, now we have an administration (insert regime) that is going all out for world dominance at our expense (blood, sweat and tears and offspring) and we are mislead into believing that our government is still, to an extent, a government by the people and for the people.

If we don't pull these items from behind the curtain, we will not have a regime change, we will not have a government by the people and for the people, we will not have a Constitution. You will be able to test the waters on this account: That when honest, hardworking people become a threat to their own government (insert regime).

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Now that you ask

George Grand Daddy was involved in the Nazi machine... in fact he financed IG Farben's construction of that lovely spot called Aushwitz... nice place for a vacation really.

I an not being facsious, but google Prescott Bush and WW II... you will find a lot of info on that one alone. Then again take back the media has a great short on it, two.

Yes, many of the bankers in the US financed the Nazi war machine.

Oh and welcome to DU

[The Doctor.]

26. I've been playing that xylophone for a while....

And you seem to have all the strokes down better than I.

Unfortunately your message does not have pictures, so most Americans will drive their SUV's straight into the same history books as the Romans drove their... well, we'll just go with chariots.

The ambitious plan of the PNAC has been carried out by some of history's most incompetent people.

One thing I think you may find interesting which you did not cover was just how much control of the American Media the Saudi Royals have invested in.
I do not know the exact numbers, but if they own enough votes, they can play the American media like a fiddle... and therefore they can play us.
Indeed, they could see the entire Bush Crime family deposed in a weekend.

That would mean they are using us just long enough to dispose of some of their own problems before finally doing away with the very dangerous and despotic BFEE... effectively neutering the US.

So what about OBL? We keep him around in the hopes that the Saudis don't pull the trigger?
What about China?
They could pull the plug on our economy anytime. That would effectively starve our war machine.
But there's no doubt we would 'accelerate' our agenda in the ME. And what would that mean?

:nuke:

Yep... and quite a few of them.

So China won't pull the plug as long as the BFEE is in charge.
They'll do it ater the impeachment proceeding which the (perhaps Saudi-controlled) media will make sure to help along.
Sure China knows that will spell doom for the world's economy, but controlling the largest army the world has ever seen will give them quite the advantage at securing energy supplies.

He who controls those supplies during the time it takes to get fusion up and running will hold the mortgage on the future of the Human Race.

And with these incompetent Idiots trying to pull it off...

That ain't gonna be us.

Listening to Shinzeki would have made a very big difference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Well I did not want to complicate it more than necessary

the best evidence of how much they control were the We are the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia commercials after 9.11

The second best evidence was the fact that 17 of 19 bombers were Saudis but ahem we did nothing... and the Ben Ladin family was allowed, in fact taken out, of the US when there were no flights going in or out.

Now I will complicate this a tad.. I think they are both using each other and both believe they control the other.. let me elaborate...

The Saudis know just how much we depend on their black gold... we could literally not drive them SUVs without it... so they know it and that is their carrot and stick

We know that the masses in SA are restless and that one wrong move from the Royal Family and we could cause a revolution quite fast. Granted will not lead to a gov'ment allied with us... here it is where it gets interesting.... but if SA has peaked, then their strategic importance goes down by orders of magnitude and dead men tell no tales. Oh and if the BFEE wants to truly cover its tracks, even allow the mases to act out their anti Israeli programing of the last fifty years... yes I do believe they would do that... and it would please the fundies to no end.

As to the Chinese, there are rumors floating that they have already pulled the plug and it is a matter of time, and right now we are buying out of our own reserves... for that one, knowing how fast that would show up in the world economy, I will lend you my tin foil hat... but they are closer to doing that than people expect, and soon after they will retake the wayward province and might even go to war with Japan for the Natural gas Field in the sea of Japan\ China... (resource war)

As to the US, I have said it a couple times, we are a has been super power... the best indication the conference of five, with N. Korea, the terms were dictated by the Chinese, not us... they are the ones driving that train... not us.

We still have a military, but not for long... and I think the world is waiting until we bleed ourselves to the point that only nukes will be left to us... and yes this crew is rather incompetent... and if they had listened to Shinseki we might be singing a different song, but war on the cheap is never cheap.. and those who have never worn any uniform have a problem comprehending that.

[The Doctor.]

48. And the good news just keeps on coming...

Wouldn't it be nice to be wrong? Unfortunately I have yet to get a comprehensive argument to the contrary out of the right wing sheep.

Call it wishful thinking, but I should like to believe that China won't let the bleed out go too quick. I'm fairly sure they will at least time the overt effects to coincide with the end of the Bush pResidency.

That would mean we have at least two years of bubble-living before the big alarm clock goes off.

I'd love to see any source you can give me, or any extrapolations you've made regarding China's pull out of our debt-cycle.

The chaos and poverty will be astounding. Then we can calmly explain that we wound up in this mess because we refused to become energy independant.

Maybe in 30 years we'll be able to restore some of what we lost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Asia Times has been running stories

on this issue... as I said I think that is not the case yet, or we would see signs aleeady but they have run stories

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

28. Karl explains to Dubya why we're in Iraq...

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. RLOL

You have me in stiches... that is good

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

30. Thanks. nt.

[Must_B_Free]

31. countdown to the lock

flamebait is verboten

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. ?????????????

and we have not seen any flamebait, but you can do a count down to the lockdown for other reasons...

;-)

[Extend a Hand]

32. Kick their ass and take their gas

Now lets be honest if they came and told you, ok folks we need to fight this war because quite frankly we are running out of oil and we don't control it China will kill us... is too complex and most Americans would have said ... YOU NUTS? Granted it would have been refreshing but these Straussians don't work that way.

I wonder if they PNACers won't try this before it's over. I saw a picture of a freep protesting in Crawford with a sign that read:
"Kick their ass and take their gas." Sadly, they might even improve their current numbers with this strategy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. At the pace they are going, they may

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. kick for the night crew

[entanglement]

36. OK, here's my response, (it's a bit lengthy and some of it not PC)

The Israelis considered Saddam Hussein a strategic threat; Getting rid of Saddam without a drop of Israeli blood shed at American taxpayer expense is about the best thing the Israelis could have wished for (which is why Israel supported the war enthusiastically); So I'd say Oil + Israel, not just oil. I'm not blaming the Israelis, hey they were working for their interests, not ours.

I agree that American Jews have been moving right wing steadily but it has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned; the initial liberalism was a manifestation of their natural fear of the Christian right wing; but the Christian RW have been professing love for Israel / Jews for so long now, that these doubts have died out.

Surely you have to agree that Jews are disproportionately represented in the right wing establishment / media / think-tanks; For every left-leaning Noam Chomsky, there are a dozen rabid Horowitzes and Daniel Pipes and Michael Savages. I can't fail to notice that they get away saying things about minorities that NO ONE COULD GET AWAY WITH speaking about Jews. They get a free pass because it is politically incorrect to speak about right wing Jewish racism; (Ask yourself, how often you've heard of 'liberal anti-semitism' as opposed to 'right wing Jewish racism')

The 'persecuted Jew as a natural ally' thing doesn't sell anymore. Maybe it was true in 1950s America, not today. Jews are more than adequately represented in every position of power / influence and truly disenfranchised groups have a HARD TIME swallowing the idea of modern-day Jews as fellow sufferers. Hence, the Black / Jewish alliance is just a fable, convenient fiction for those who wish to believe nothing has changed.

I've been very candid in this post and hope you will recognize that, even if some of it was unpleasant reading for you.

[still_one]

41. and they were represented in the Democratic administrations also

please note that 70% of the Jewish population in the U.S. vote against bush in 2000 and 2004

In fact the big move toward bush was from the Catholics

The biggest problem we faced was that most people didn't think it was worth their time to even vote. It was a dismal showing in 2000 and 2004.

your premise is wrong, most Jews are liberal. The reason you name the "rabid Horowitzes, etc", is because right wing radio has dominated this country for the last ten years. Springer, Frankin, Sam Seder, Jon Stewart, Barbara Boxer, Russ Feingold, etc

The point is that no group should be painted with a broad brush. Wrong conclusions will be reached

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Ok let me go through this point by point

The israelis did not support the war enthusiastically, this is another canard that is used since the Likkud did, the Likkud is NOT Israel. If you bothered to tead the Israeli Press on the road to war (I did) you would have seen a major split. Moreover if you talked to Israelis, again you would have seen that Israelis overall did not support this madness. They saw far more problems, many of them also seen by us, than people give them credit, for, why? as you said our right wing Establishment presented to you the view that israelis were enthusiastic. Hey they counted on two things: Most Americans don't bother to read the paper let alone foreign press and two, most Americans don't read hebrew. This meant that Americans were limited to the Jerusalem Post (Murdoch Rag) or Ha'Aretz, English edition... but they were not treated to the other four major papers. For the Record Yedhiot Ahronot is the paper of record in Israel, and they are still working on their English site.

Now American Jews, I speak to them, I am one, are moving to the right because of the antisemitism. Most American Jews do not understand the danger of the Christian right. When you speak to them and mention that they are doing this in preparation for a second holocaust they are astounded... and usually they want proof... by the way the Book of Revelations is your friend... as well as some of the rabid writings of the Christian Right... and some Jews have discovered Religion, as much of the western world, fundamentalism is on the rise and for some arrange reason I cannot fathom yet, this fundamentalism is right wing.

No they are not disproportionately represented, it is just that those on the left side don't get the press. Just like the left wing of anybody else doesn't get the press. That said, Wolfowitz, Perle, Deshowitz and even Savage started as young Trotskytes, and now went to the other extreme... there is a joke that most Americans don't get, but sadly it applies to them... if at your twenties you have not been a red, you have not lived, if by fifty you are not a conservative you have not learned... this is a common joke in Europe and it applies to these people who wear it like a badge...

Jews are adequately represented, they have fought for that representation, that does not mean they are not natural allies. The rise of antisemitism is quite obvious to anybody who pays attention, and as a daughter of the holocaust and Historian I see it, not only in Europe where it is becoming quite rabid, but here. Also the fact that people care when a Jew rises to any position of power (and Jews enable this) is notable. When a Christian does the same thing nobody gives a hoot, but a Jew, that is noted in any news paper article... and that is part of the latent antisemitism in the West.

Na it is not unpleasant readying, I hope this gives you a view of what needs to be done... insofar as that alliance between the christian rigfht and Jews... as I said, Revelations is your friend, most of these people are unaware what the true agenda of those loons is... and as I have said above, most Jews, like most Americans are politically unaware..

Oh and at your peril yuo ignore the voting record of most Jews and the ones on teh left wing like Seder, Franken, Boxer...

[leftchick]

43. This is a nightmare

nominated. Great job!

[rustydad]

57. Why?

Do people think things as complex as world politics can be distilled to a single reason for a war on Iraq. Here is a non priority list of some of the causes of our actions in Iraq.

1) Stupidy at the top.
2) Arrogance at the top.
3) The Bush family sickness (Jr. hates dad)
4) Money for friends (Hilliburton, defense contractors)
5) Permanent military bases in the middle of the Middle East
6) Jewish lobby
7) Fundie lobby
8) Oil, but for whom?
9) Iraq's switch to pricing oil in Euros instead of dollars
10) Need to keep the "ball moving" ie, taking the focus off 9/11 and LIHOP (or MIHOP)

The oil companies did not promote this war. They prefer political stability. Their lead times in costly infrastructure development requires predictability and stability well into the future. And they sell on the world market. The idea that by invading Iraq and soon Iran and perhaps Saudi Arabia in the future the US can ride out Peak Oil without changing our life style is "Stupidity at the top", see number 1. And Israelis that don't see that a wider Middle East war will leave their worthless piece of desert just that, a worthless piece of destroyed desert, are delusional. Bob

[hootinholler]

58. I love you!

Gawd I hope yer a female ;)

WOW. Just fuckin wow. Thanks for that cogent background.

Then really add on to this the chance to fiscally rape what was the largest economy in the world and Iraq becomes inevitable. It was just a matter of time before the powerful could consolidate enough power. Took 'em what all of 30 years since the last smack-down.

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. femate but happily married Hoot

and yes took them 30 years and plenty of propaganda a la Rush and Hannity and all of that....

By the way spaeking of distractions, there is ANOTHER white blond female college student missing... ah the media

[Coastie for Truth]

59. An interesting DU append about the American Petroleum Institute

Interesting quote:

"Recently, a lobbyist from the American Petroleum Institute (the lobbying arm of big oil) was overheard at a bar saying, "we're the richest trade association in town." That comment sums up their response to record gas prices before and following Hurricane Katrina. As gas prices shoot up, they're counting their money and buying drinks for their friends.

Not coincidentally, while families pay those record prices, oil companies' profits have shot up. According to an Oil Daily report before Katrina hit, the ten major oil companies are on pace to post an astounding $100 billion plus in profits in 2005. I'm all for American businesses doing well, but we must make sure these record profits aren't reaped at the expense of America's families."

Harry Reid's web site about the American Petroleum Institute and soaring gas prices, and API's lobbying -- http://www.giveemhellharry.com/page/petition/gas>

The sheer power of these American petroleum Institute illegitimati

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. They need to be exposed

Today at the store... gal every time she fills up her truck it runs her fifty bucks.... she has to do this every four days... she is PISSED... I used the oportunity to indtroduce her to PNAC... I also gave PNAC to a friend of mine who is a true conservative... he said you have to be shitting me... they could not be into this... so I did send him the whole document... The section that has him fuming is that beaut... we will need a new Pearl Harbor to carry out this agenda... he ain't voting for any in this crew again.

[carl_pwccaman]

62. Re: Strauss/Straussians...

First of all, it was mentioned that Strauss seems to have pulled asside certain students, and directed different ones in different ways, according to their interests.

Secondly, consider that what you are calling neo-conservative, isn't necessarily 'Straussian' as it isn't entirely clear what is meant or should be meant by 'Straussian'.

=========

It is true that there are key neo-cons who have an interest in Leo Strauss. They combine this with an interest in certain militaristic views of another thinker, who I can't recall the name of at the moment, but my point is that they are indebted to the political-strategic militarism of another thinker as well.

Strauss has appealed to people in the intelligence community, people who are into practical aspects of politics and covert messages. This is understandable, as Strauss spoke of how certain writers were very careful in their texts, to make it hard for people to get some of the more controversial ideas, or to understand some ideas that the public wouldn't understand or approve of. So anyone trying to understand how to decode statements of foriegn officials or terrorist groups, could conceivably be interested in whehter Strauss's writings could be helpful in decoding disinformation, diplomatic obfuscations, statements that are addressed to different people at the same time.

It is conceivable that a liberal who understands Strauss, could get very good at de-coding what the neo-cons are up to, and effectively counter the agendas that are unacceptable.

But let's face it, liberals can be Straussian, if Straussian is taken to mean a certain way of deeply reading texts and looking for problems and layers of meaning, hidden suggestions.

Strauss spoke of the problem of Heidegger, the challenge he brought. It is difficult to thoroughly understand, much less refute Heidegger, sufficiently to prevent the sort of fascist manifestation of Being that you find in Mussolini or Hitler. Strauss said that it would help to return to the ancients, that it is a matter of bringing up the problems between the ancient and modern philosophers, to apply philosphy better today. As such, how can you defend an open society against the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or various tyrants in the Arab world? Clearly the answers of liberal and conservative alike are not entirely satisfactory, and can leave you wondering if we can survive.

So the dialog, the questions that are brought up, the unresolved issues, are what Strauss emphasizes, and in doing so he deals with little details that seem to contradict or lead in unexpected directions, when reading philosophers who seemed to wish to write cautiously and know how to write for careful readers, for the sake of safety and to deal with issues that the public would get irate about.

Think of the public today, the average person is not very aware of issues, and proposes reactionary notions far too often, and the relativism on the right is extremely dangerous, look how they relativize about torture. To say what one really thinks about religious fanatics, about neo-cons, about the white house, is sometimes not easy to do directly, blatantly, and there are situations where liberals may wish to speak more politically, and to have a really political philosophy about how to proceed. For the sake of practical strategy and the demands of communication in such an age, for protest movements, etc.

So I suggest that people read Strauss and think about civil/human rights and principles that separate powers and hold the government accountable, along the way of reading Strauss. Maybe there would be some insights. It helps to shake up assumptions and explore the issues and unresolved questions.

Strauss is relevant to fifth-column work, to surviving potential persecution while getting your message out to those who may be able to hear the message, and issues of society, humanity, and dealing with tyrants of all kinds.

Today, fox news, Christian Broadcasting, and right-wing radio represents the Tyranny of the mob, Democracy as Tyranny. If you think about that, and read some Strauss, you might get some insights.

I'd suggest starting with The Rebirth of Classical Political Rationalism. From there, Persecution and the Art of Writing, the City and Man, Natural Right and History, and other such works, explore different sides of his thinking, that can get the mind working on different issues from various angles.

It is good to challenge the mind to struggle with the issues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Good point I have read a little of Straus

but not much... will go back and get one of them and go through it, if nothing else, know thy enemy....

Seems to me that Heguel may also apply and given that many of them started as Trotskytes...

[hootinholler]

64. I was going to suggest Machiavelli (sp?) n/t

[carl_pwccaman]

67. Strauss on Machiavelli is important...

But I haven't got through it all, and not deeply enough, yet.

One of the conflicts between ancient and modern, is that the ancients were restrained in how they expressed themselves, considering the good of the public who might read the texts, as well as hoping to lead the deeper thinkers to explore further in other directions, if they were inclined and capable.

For the ancients, what it means to be human, the limits of nature, and the paradoxes of public life, were important issues to deal with, while moderns have deconstructed what it means to be human and have acted as if change will magickally be positive progress inevitably.

Dealing with these issues, in a way that reflects YOUR OWN ideals and principles, YOUR OWN insights into civil/human rights, etc., can lead to great insights.

The problem is that reckless militarists, utopian cynics, and sociopathic fops, are thinking about such issues practically, strategically, effectively, without any moral compunctions whatsoever, while their opponents are not so strategic or insightful on the issues that count.

If our strategy and insight increased, yet we held on to the principles we hold dear and didn't sink to excusing torture or bigotry or reckless warmongering, we could achieve much.

The moral highground does not get won by being seen as aloof intellectuals who pretend to be moral. It is not won by hypocrites who win over large numbers, either, because the moral high ground is not up for a vote. But the hypocrites who succeeded in pretending to be ordinary joe blow religiously sympathetic guys, did get power.

Now, there are in fact, people in the Democratic party, who can stand up with moral conviction about civil/human rights and helping the poor and fighting corporate corruption and dealing with sociopaths... and without pretending... and without aloofness. They listen to lawyers, they listen to professionals, they are willing to listen to very educated people, but they themselves do not come across as aloof and it could be because they have kept more down to earth or daily deal with people in more grass-roots ways.

The experts, lawyers, PR people/lobyists, and professors, have guided the party, and their views are often really helpful.

But too often their advice has been to avoid making a staunchly moral case for civil/human rights or for helping the poor etc., so as not to offend or appear reactionary, etc. They have too often waffled on facts as if truth was up for grabs, so as not to offend those who had different views.

To be firm and compelling and passionate is not to be bigoted and reactionary. That was a mistaken assumption of previous experts.

So people with grass roots sense in the party need to speak with their own voice more freely, and others who used to be careful about pr and appearances, have to let go a bit and realize that their expertise is on facts and legalities, and to speak on where they really are the expert instead of presuming they are the expert on everything.

Together we can learn, but we have to let the grass-roots voices speak in ways that are relevant.

And that doesn't mean in that cliquish activist-lingo with all the assumptions of a fund-raiser.

That means Democrats who are in unions, teachers, small business people, all kinds of Democrats who aren't into pr or lobbying or speaking exactly the way Democrats have been speaking, should speak more, and the ones who are concerned about the different manner of speaking and focus on issues, should listen and learn a bit before assuming that their advice and steering is all that helpful... because what's been going on for a while now isn't really working.

Democrats need to be principled and to maintain positions and have a vision. Let the impulses of those who are 'regular people', find more expression. Of course expert advice is welcome, but experts in this or that aren't necessarily general all-purpose leaders or strategists.

Those who really do know some strategy, may be very well educated, or may not be. But the typical educated voice representing Democrats, has been too aloof, too fuzzy-minded on truth/facts/passionate conviction about ethics and moral principles that can make America great.

So without becoming Republicans, Democrats can learn from Strauss. The author of Closing of the American Mind, Alan Bloom, wasn't he a lifelong Democrat?

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. No not quite Bloom was a conservative

a product of the Chicago School and his book was in many ways a Conservative Screed. There are many valuable lessons in it, such as the need to study the classics... which Americans in general roll eyes at... but it was a book about what has been not what will become

We also need to remember, and this is the reason to really study the classics, to understand what the Founding Fathers wanted out of the US, one needs to understand the Republic, the Cave, all of the Dialogues, as well as Cicero and Aristotle... the Founding Fathers used those as their guides.

Is that a tall task? Yes.

But what you say is a product of the modern US... the masses, the base, on both parties, are relied upon but not listened to... even when that base is the salt of the earth common sense that at times has the solution... it may be time for another base revolt and the foundation of a third party... after all a third party is the reason for the New Deal... and the conditions were that similar to today... but this is getting partially out of the subject matter, so it might be a good idea to write an essay on the classics, the Federalist, the Constitution and yes, even Alan Bloom.

[carl_pwccaman]

73. Great idea for Essay

I agree that understanding Plato's Republic especially the Cave, Aristotle on Politics, Cicero... as well as Machiavelli (the concept of separation/balance/division of powers is found in the Discourses, as a Straussian professor told me in class), and various Enlightenment thinkers on social/political theory, is helpful to be able to respond to simplistic claims of the Bible being THE foundation, and also to understand deeper issues about society/politics/humanity.

It would make an amazing essay, if it was done well.

I have heard that Bloom's Closing of the American Mind is in many ways conservative, in many ways a screed, but I also heard that he was a lifelong Democrat. He was also homosexual. I've heard lots of things. It seems to me that while he may point much to the past/ancients and to high culture, American greatness, great literature, that does not make him a Republican or Neo-Con at heart. To be a critic of multi-culturalism or of varoius forms of relativism, does not necessarily mean being a bigot or inflexible or myopic/rigidly monoculture.

There is a notion in Strauss, of how important it is to appeal to values and public morality, for the sake of the nation, especially for the sake of those who would go nuts otherwise and create problems, especially to handle ideas that are complex and not listened to by people who want something simpler.

But Democrats can speak of the nobility and morality of civil/human rights and of the virtues that the philosophers and founding father spoke of and the great tradition of the growing struggle for freedom and consistency to the best values in the constitution that have helped our country correct its mistakes. They don't have to just pander to the religious right, to appeal to public morality, nor do they have to be school marms or very rigid. That is one thing I think needs to be considered.

Progress need not always be beneficial, that is another point to consider. As long as 'Progress' is taken as a kind of faith, blindly, 'Progressives' especially, but any Democrats as well, will take their licks. To seriously consider when progress creates unintended problems, can do much to allay fears of conservatives.

[hootinholler]

70. Thanks for that as I don't know Strauss form Bach ;)

I generally concur, but, I wish to point out a subtle difference in our view of the moral high ground.

It is never won, only yielded. In other words, it is the strongest place from which we all start. Once you abandon morality you cannot go back. You might be able to make the appearance of going there, but, you will be found out eventually and the public's re-assessment of you will be traumatic. Witness current events. This is why Republicans eat thier own. Thier base is basically honorable and moral, as is ours.

It seems to me to be that we as a people have problems seeing past the facade, or can't connect the actions of our leadership to the abandonment of morality until it's too late.

Is it time for a Truth Party?

-Hoot

[carl_pwccaman]

74. Being Found Out...

Yeah, pretence can be found out... IF the rhetoricians are very skillful, and the conservative rhetoricians ARE very skillfull (note: Gorias) but I dispute that the Republican base is basically honorable and moral (note: Protagoras)... SOME republicans are misguided and leaning towards being well-meaning and seeking virtue, but not all.

I think a big problem is that Democratic leadership and liberal lobbyists, etc., aren't speaking TO THE MAN, to the audience they should be considering, appropriately. (note: compare Lysis with Protagoras and Euthydemus)

Plato's dialogs, especially the more Socratic ones, give great examples of listening well, speaking/responding according to the person and their point, etc.

[Stephanie]

71. the other is Wohlstetter, I think.

[anarch]

65. nearly every war throughout history

can be traced to conflict over resources, at some level. Political complexity and revisionist history tend to mask this, but if you look closely it's there.

This is an excellent post. It's amazing to me that, even in liberal circles, this seems to be sort of a taboo subject. That's how deeply addicted this culture is to oil -- we can't face the facts because no matter what, the way of life that we have now will not last, and the degree to which everything in our lives is dependent on oil will make the next century or so one of very painful transition.

It's also amazing to me how successful the distraction and propaganda campaigns have been, to keep people buying shit and driving their cars and so on as if none of this is real. Any world where the "last superpower" can flat out bomb and invade another sovereign nation without any provocation at all...an act of bald aggression if there ever was one...and have half its population simply consent without any question, and just ignore the other half...I dunno, things just seem to keep getting crazier. Maybe facing the truth about the real, basic reasons for all this is the first step.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Yeah I believe it is time to face the truth

all of this is about power and black gold... and peak oil.

Once we do that we can start doing something about it

Now I have the sneaky suspicion that the crowd in the WH may have realized their plan is going to hell in a hand basket... hence all the sudden talk about conservation... but that is just me... not that bush is in charge, not at all... but that talk just made me go... hmmm

Oh and welcome to DU

[buzzsaw_23]

69. PNAC's New World Order

is Old World Colonialism

Thanks for this excellent post



I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now form this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. it was a beautiful dream...the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer and the sacred tree is dead--Black Elk