The school buses are IRRELEVANT. Here's why.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

Let's think this through.

Suppose, just because we're in right-wing fantasyland here, that the city of New Orleans had managed to load ALL its poor, disabled, and frail elderly onto school buses, city buses, horse-drawn carriages, motorcycle sidecars, or any other combination of vehicles.

Then what?

Because "Then what?" is the relevant question, NOT the number of school buses.

Imagine a convoy of poor, disabled, and elderly people streaming out of New Orleans.

Where do they go?

Can the mayor order that they just be dumped off in the nearest unaffected town? All 100,000 of them? Or maybe 1,000 in each of the unaffected towns along the Interstate? Right, just what every town wants. One thousand people showing up unannounced. One thousand people with no money showing up unannounced.

Should they be dropped off one by one as soon as there are motels with "No Vacancy" signs? (Never mind that motels were booked solid for some incredible number of miles around.) Ooookaaaay, but how do they pay for their motel bills? What do they eat?

Should those who have relatives out of the storm area be allowed to go to those relatives? Not a bad idea for those who have relatives--but who pays their way there?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If you argue with right-wingers about how many buses there were, you're missing the point. The Republicanite strategists know that spreading the talking point about the buses will get everyone into fruitless arguments about how many buses there were and take the focus off FEMA's lack of regional coordination for the widely foretold inundation of New Orleans.

The mayor of New Orleans had no authority to dump evacuees on other towns. The other towns were unprepared to take them, and those in Mississippi had their own displaced persons.

This is why disaster relief plans for large cities need to be on a regional basis, because most of them have a sphere of influence that extends beyond state borders.

The disaster plan for New Orleans should have included stockpiling survival supplies in public buildings every community out of the flood zone, determining how many evacuees each community could absorb, and designating someone in that community to manage disaster relief.

On the New Orleans side, there should have been a "block captain" on every block whose job it was to find out who had a car, who had financial resources to evacuate independently, and who would be willing to give a ride to a neighbor. The block captain would have reported back to regional FEMA headquarters how many people would need transportation out of the city and how many would need subsidized shelter. The block captain would also designate a deputy, who would take over if the block captain was killed or injured in the disaster.

FEMA would then decide how many buses would be needed to transport the non-mobile and where the displaced from each neighborhood would be sent. If possible, people from the same neighborhood would be kept together.

That's what should have been done.

Because it wasn't done, it doesn't matter whether there were 200 school buses or 200 thousand.

The fact remains that 100,000 people had nowhere to go and no way to support themselves, even if they did evacuate.

[samdogmom]

1. Good point! n/t

[electropop]

40. We know exactly what happens.

Those who did manage to get to the borders of New Orleans, whether on foot or in vehicles, were stopped by neighboring sheriffs and by the feds, who fired guns at them. New Orleans was officially under siege. No supplies or rescuers allowed in, no trapped people allowed out. This was genocide.

[Llewlladdwr]

50. Not really.

All the OP has really done is point out the complete lack of any disaster peparedness/recovery planning at the state/local level in Louisianna. There shold have been a plan to use the buses and emergency shelters should have been set up inland. The shelters were a state responsibility. Or rather, the plans that did exist should have actually been implemented.

You may as well just say "Hell yeah the Governor/Mayor down there in Louisianna was completely incompetent! We all know that. That's why the Feds should have just taken control."

[me b zola]

55. Yes, really

Here is a wonderful link that will explain why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4715042

~snip~

Various hurricane studies suggest that a slow-moving Category 3 or almost any Category 4 or 5 hurricane approaching Southeast Louisiana from the south could severely damage the heavily populated Southeast portion of the state creating a catastrophe with which the State would not be able to cope without massive help from neighboring states and the Federal Government.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please read the entire OP of that thread.

[Garbo 2004]

58. FEMA was to address those issues after the summer 2004 hurricane pam

exercise. It was to work with state and local authorities on improving evacuation and other things. Funds for that were cut. So it didn't happen.

[Guaranteed]

2. You need a number in there. 60,000? Where do *60,000* people

go?

(Edit: looks like you've got 100,000)

But, the point is that everyone was NOT going to get out of the city, no matter what. There were going to be thousands and thousands of people left, between the authorities, medical workers, those who couldn't leave (for whatever reason) and those who simply did not WANT to leave.

80% of the people out was just fine. It was the BEST that could have been expected.

****If the federal government was thinking everyone was going to get out, that's just more evidence of incompetence.**** HELL- THE FEDS CAN'T EVEN GET EVERYONE OUT NOW!!!!!!!

THEN, once it was clear to everyone that NOT everyone had gotten out, that 10's of thousands of people were still there, what did the Feds do? NOTHING.

Lick my nuts, Wolf.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Okay, I wasn't sure of the number--I was just guessing

that 20% of 500,000 was 100,000.

[Guaranteed]

4. Yeah, I just didn't see your number.

Great post! :)

[political_invader]

5. Ty for articulating my thoughts... great post ... nt

[Blue Belle]

6. Excellent Point!!

I was wondering myself when my father was bitching about the unused busses... okay, now that they're loaded and on their way out of the city - Where do they go?? At that point it stops being a city/mayor problem and starts to be a National problem (i.e. people being re-located to Houston).

[ananda]

32. even loaded..

.. those buses could hold only a fraction of the 100k that needed to be evacuated..

.. and, then of course, there would've been the problem of sheltering them and providing for them.

The problem was of a scale way too large for a poor state like LA to handle, exacerbated by the fact that most of their NG and equipment were in Iraq.

Bush and the Feds were absolutely essential and they dropped the ball. It looks like LIHOP... am I wrong?

Sue

[Blue Belle]

51. No... you're not wrong.

I totally believe Bush LIHOP... and it appears I'm not the only one if his poll numbers are any indication of how the rest of the country feels.

[Dr.Phool]

7. I'm sure the Preznit would have welcomed them

To his pig farm in Crawford. After all, he is a compassionate conservative!:sarcasm: :spank: :sarcasm: :spank:

[Gabi Hayes]

8. the problem lies in how to answer briefly, in the manner of the question

posed

this is one of the FEW things the fascists do well: determine the parameters of debate, and they almost always win the battle of soundbite, putting dems on the defensive

the way to answer these ''questions" with essentially false premises is to find a way to turn them back on the questioner, and it's essential to do it in a way that's just as meme-forming as the question itself

the bus thing is the one that resonates most at this point in the fascists' battle to win the war of words, and I'm afraid it resonates, because I've heard people at work using it already. they
re blaming Nagin AND those who didn't leave.

how to best turn this bus question around 1) in just a few words and 2) in a way that will be REMEMBERED, and help replace the bus meme?

[TheDebbieDee]

9. FEMA never told the Mayor where the busses

of evacuees should be taken? I've heard this reason posted somewhere else on this site in the last week.

[sandnsea]

10. Not just "1,000 people"

1,000 poor BLACK people. We've already seen some of the comments about the evacuees, like from the mayor of Tulsa.

And even if they had evacuated numbers of people, there is still the matter of many thousands who just didn't want to go, rich or poor. What about the FEMA response for them?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Right, racism is definitely a factor

How many all-white towns would be willing to take 1,000 black people unannounced?

I 'm sure that the righwingers didn't talk like this about Grand Forks, North Dakota.

This disaster has turned up some real ugliness lurking under the rocks.

[Mairead]

12. Lydia, I love you but you're wrong on this issue

The Number One problem was to get people out of the way of the storm. Where to take them was a secondary problem, but even that had already been sorted out: Houston had already set up their stadium as a refugee point--that's where Jabbar Gibson took his busload. The people in Houston were surprised that he got there so early, so there was some kerfuffle before they opened the doors. But they had their stadium all set up to take evacuees.

[Joebert]

14. You're right, they should have started driving.

BUT, who was going to drive the buses? Who was going to pay for the gas? Who was going to direct each bus to a certain location?

There was a failure locally to have a well developed plan to escape. There should be money ready, there should be drivers assigned, there should be agreements made where to go.

This was the failure before the hurricane. The failures after the hurricane are well documented.

[Mairead]

24. "There was a failure locally to have a well developed plan to escape."

You're right, and that's my point too. The failure was in not having a plan--or even an ad-hoc decision!--to get people, human and non-, out the door before the hurricane hit. The resources were there.

There are so many people here at DU who want to play politics, saying in effect the same thing they rightfully deride BushCo for saying: "nobody could have known, so our side did fine". It's really saddening.

[K-W]

42. Your DU bashing is the only saddening thing here.

Nobody is saying "in effect the same thing" that is a rediculous accusation.

What is saddening is those people who buy into the conservative 'fair and balanced' horseshit and think that you arent being objective if you dont pretend that the locals did as bad a job as the feds.

They didnt. They did an ok job. They could have done better, but they did an ok job. The feds DROPPED THE BALL.

There was a plan, there were ad hoc decisions. Were they the best plan or the best decisions, maybe not, but you are completely mischarecterizing the events.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

46. Says the person who introduced name calling to the discussion.

Now, what makes me say that? It's because I know that your politics, as expressed here at DU, are good.

Thanks.

Now, why wouldn't you know the same about me?

Because I dont remember your postings well enough to render any judgement about your politics. I wouldnt presume to know what your politics are or arent.


Immaturity on your part would be my guess.

So I am immature because I dont know your politics?

You imagine that politics are received rather than personal, making anyone who rejects any part of the received party line not someone who thinks for herself, but a freeper! Eeek.

I did no such thing. I have made no commentary whatsoever on your politics. My commentary is strictly about your unfair DU bashing in that post.

So, while I know your politics are good, other aspects of your character leave much to be desired. And that's something I don't relish having learned.

Considering the fact that you feel it is appropriate to make sweeping judgements about my charecter based on the fact that I dont like your DU bashing I think that I would be far more justified than you to name-call, but I will refrain.

[Mairead]

47. I saw your post before you edited out your 'suggestion' that I might

be happier at FR. So your pose of innocence is a bit late.

[Mairead]

48. I saw your post before you edited out your 'suggestion' that I might

be happier at FR. So your pose of innocence is a bit late.

[K-W]

49. I am making no pose of innocence you are mistaken.

My suggestion that you should go to FR was not a commentary on your politics, nor did I indicate it was.

I was, as I explained, merely commenting on your post. The reference to freerepublic was meant to point out the ridiculousness of your rhetoric and generalizations about DU'rs, not to in any way suggest that you were a conservative.

I edited it out because I suspected it would be read the wrong way, apparently I was right.

Edit: spelling

[nyhuskyfan]

19. Still going with that line of thinking?

Did you read that Shreveport suffered severe hurricane damage during the 1980's? So there pretty much isn't anywhere in the state that you know is safe from a Category 5 Hurricane.

Houston set up for evacuees three days after the storm -- after the Superdome was deemed uninhabitable. Jabbar Gibson commandeered the school bus well after the city was flooded -- not before.

[sandnsea]

21. You're flat wrong

Why would the Astrodome be announced as an evacuation point BEFORE the flood? No reason, and it wasn't. No, Gibson was evacuating people out of the flood because there was a flood, it had nothing to do with anything that happened BEFORE the hurricane.

[TahitiNut]

22. When was the Houston Astrodome actually ready? Friday?

How was the Mayor of NOLA supposed to know that 5-6 days earlier, or even 3 days earlier, one day after Katrina blew through? :shrug:

Then there's the logistical nightmare. Loading up buses with willing people, their possessions, and with qualified drivers - with gasoline to make the trip. Maybe 40 persons per 66-student bus. Students with knapsacks aren't the same as adults with even a minimum of personal goods.

[Mairead]

25. Wednesday at the latest: that's when Jabbar and his busload arrived

"Maybe 40 persons per 66-student bus. Students with knapsacks aren't the same as adults with even a minimum of personal goods."

Jabbar transported "50-70" people, per the news account. But okay, let's call it 40 + non-human family and personal treasures. It took him 7 hours. The evacuation window was on the order of 56 hours (see below), but call it 36. That's 2.5 round trips. With ca. 1000 busses (500 school, 500 muni + commercial) That's 40,000 people per trip, 120,000 people toto (since they wouldn't be coming back after the third trip).


Timeline (from CBC):
Aug. 26, 2005
Katrina weakens over land into a tropical storm, before moving out over the Gulf of Mexico. It grows to a Category 2 hurricane with 160 km/h winds, veering north and west toward Mississippi and Louisiana. 10,000 National Guard troops are dispatched across the Gulf Coast.

Aug. 27, 2005
Eleven people die in Florida. Katrina becomes a Category 3 storm, with 185 km/h winds, and a hurricane warning is issued for Louisiana's southeastern coast, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain, and for the northern Gulf coast. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declares a state of emergency and urges residents in low-lying areas to evacuate. Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency. A mandatory evacuation is ordered for Hancock County, 65 kilometres east of New Orleans on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. Coastal Gulf residents jam freeways and gas stations as they rush to escape.

Aug. 28, 2005
Katrina grows into a Category 5 storm with 260 km/h winds, and heads for the northern Gulf coast. Mayor Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans, but 10 shelters are also set up, including the Superdome, for those unable to leave. Evacuation orders are posted all along the Mississippi coast. Alabama Governor Bob Riley declares a state of emergency.

Aug. 29, 2005
Katrina, now a Category 4 hurricane with 230 km/h winds, makes landfall near Buras, La., at 6:10 a.m. CT (7:10 a.m. ET). U.S. President Bush makes emergency disaster declarations for Louisiana and Mississippi, freeing up federal funds. Katrina rips two holes in the Superdome's roof, with some 10,000 people inside. At least eight Gulf Coast refineries shut down or reduce operations. Airports close in New Orleans, Baton Rouge, La., Biloxi, Miss., Mobile, Ala., and Pensacola, Fla. Hundreds of flights are canceled or diverted.

[TahitiNut]

27. It took him 13 hours, according to the Houston Chronicle.

:shrug:

They looked as bedraggled as their grueling ride would suggest: 13 hours on the commandeered bus driven by a 20-year-old man. Watching bodies float by as they tried to escape the drowning city. Picking up people along the way. Three stops for fuel. Chugging into Reliant Park, only to be told initially that they could not spend the night.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory2/3334317

Maybe that's just another of many misreported "facts" of the last 2 weeks.

[Mairead]

29. Okay, he was stopping to pick up people, so I can believe 38mph avg

Particularly as all other numbers, including his age (18 or 20 seems favorite, but one station had him a 15-y.o.) and the count of people on the bus seem hard to pin down. So why should trip time be more firm.

So let's call it 13 hours and say the same slow-speed, ad-hoc nature of the trip applied to all other busses. (When I specified a 36 hour window rather than the 56 that was available, I was implicitly assuming the first 20 would be spent in getting everything sorted so that the trip itself would be quick)

That allows only 1.5 round trips rather than 2.5 -- 80K people rather than 120K. But that's still 80,000.

So with those busses we have a picture where somewhere between 80K and 120K people and their treasures could have been shifted to safety. That's almost as good as the Cubans do. And much better than was done.

[Wilber_Stool]

60. What you are forgetting is

that school busses have governors on their engines that limit there speed to 45mph. If you're lucky. Most drive slower. Have you ever seen a school bus loaded with adults. They are made for children and teens. There is no way to get 50 people on a school bus.

[TahitiNut]

61. What on earth makes you think you know what I'm forgetting or not?

I'm fully aware of both of those factoids. I've said, on a couple of occasions, that a 66-passenger school bus would do well to transport 30-40 people with some minimum of supplies and personal belongings. That assumes a fairly normal distribution of ages and degrees of infirmity. I've noted that it was reported it took Jabbar 13 hours to travel 300 miles.

FWIW, just how many folks do we suppose have a commercial driver's license?
When we start ignoring our laws, where do we stop? Which ones do we choose to ignore?
One would think such things would be decided beforehand. :shrug:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lisa]

66. press release from Texas Gov. -- Astrodome shelter discussed Aug 30

It was formally announced on the 31st (Wednesday) -- doesn't say what time.

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/pressreleases/PressRelease.2005-08-31.2748

"Perry’s office yesterday discussed with Harris County Judge Robert Eckels the idea of turning the Astrodome into a long-term shelter to meet the housing, food and medical needs of those already stranded here in Texas."


This article said it was quite early in the morning.

"The transfer of 25,000 people to the nation's fourth-largest city was set in motion shortly after 2 a.m. Wednesday when Texas Gov. Rick Perry asked Harris County Judge Robert Eckels, who runs emergency management in the county, to open the little-used Astrodome for hurricane victims."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-31-astrodome_x.htm


Regarding preparations:

"The Astrodome's floor was still bare by midafternoon Wednesday. No cots had been set up, and only one table with two trays of food was in place."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3334074



They were supposed to be set up to receive people on Thursday morning (breakfast ready, etc.)

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.refugees.ap/?section=cnn_topstories


Gibson's "unofficial" schoolbus arrived at 10:30 PM on the 31st:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory2/3334317


Likely the place was still being set up, which might explain some of the delay in admitting them.


Texas had some shelters set up on the 29th, but not on the scale of the Astrodome. There seemed to have been some plans for shelters (for Louisiana evacuees) as early as the 28th, but it doesn't sound as if they had expected anything of this magnitude, back then.

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/pressreleases/PressRelease.2005-08-29.1036
http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/pressreleases/PressRelease.2005-08-28.2916

[Dogmudgeon]

13. And the BIG point is ...

... FEMA/DHS has all responsibility for disaster "management". Period. They had the responsibility to know what assets and resources were where and for how many people.

This is part of the FEMA charter, the DHS charter, and several dozen Public Laws and congressional acts that have been enacted since the 1960s. All of it is available at FEMA's and DHS's website(s). The pResident's own actions regarding Katrina have been on the White House web site for days now.

The Executive branch handles all emergencies. And since Bush is the Chief Executive, it's his responsibility. Bush could even invoke USA-PATRIOT and assume immediate command that way. He has the power to crack the whip and set a million hands to the machinery of Federal effort. He was able to push a war through Congress, he was able to stop research in two major fields of biomedicine, he was able to get enronmous tax breaks for the rich, but now he claims his hands were tied when he approached the Governor of Louisiana, his cap in his hand, and begged her to let him help with a clean-up he knew would be big.

All of this "it's not his fault, because ...", mes vieux, is a big ol' honkin' collective whine and excuse.

No one expects Bush to be perfect. We just expect him to do his job, not dilly-dally and stall to get petty revenge on a governor and blame everyone else in the country for his failures.

--p!

[TahitiNut]

20. AND American taxpayers already paid for FEMA to have done this!

FEMA took the tax money and claimed to have done the preparation and planning.

[Mr Rabble]

15. Great post.

If you say this to most Rwingers, there heads will explode.

Ive done it a few times in the last week.

Lots of stammering, followed by something about it being "their" problem.

[William769]

16. It still would have been better than what they had to go through.

[nyhuskyfan]

23. Unless the Hurricane killed them...

The first issue is shelter from 150 mph winds. The second issue is the rescue effort. The first issue was provided (in less than ideal conditions, but provided) -- the second issue was bungled.

But if you don't get through the first part, then the second is irrelevant.

[TahitiNut]

17. Yep. That's what I've said twice on DU and many times IRL.

(1) Evacuation doesn't mean kidnapping.
(2) EVERY person on each bus of 1,000 to 2,000 buses must agree to go where it's going and be able to return, eventually.
(3) The authorities at the destination must be prepared to receive these people. That means shelter, food, water, and safety/security -- ALL of which the people on the buses ALREADY HAD and PAID FOR before the storm and the failure of the infrastructure. The Mayor of NOLA (no more than any Mayor) had no authority over this. That's why FEMA exists!


Really. We need only look at who finally got around to doing the job - a "job" made bigger by its own delays and abysmal preparation. FEMA and relief agencies and organizations operating under FEMA authority and coordination.

People AREN'T cargo. They AREN'T cattle. They AREN'T prisoners.



As I said Thursday, in reply to a now-dearly-departed visitor ...

OK. Tell you what. You're mayor. Take the buses. Now what? Who's going to get on them? Who's going to drive? Most important, just where the fuck are they going to go? Are you going to send them to Biloxi? You're not Mayor of Biloxi. Are you going to just drive them north, find an open field, and dump the people on the ground? Whose ground? What'll you do about the trespassing charges? Now, I'd like to hear, in detail, exactly how you're going to load buses with people, all of whom are willing to go to the same destination (unless you want kidnapping charges), and arrange for food, water, and shelter (those minimum things they've had to leave behind, that they've already paid for!) at that destination. Let's assume we have 100,000 (that's low) people. Let's assume we have school buses that can carry 50 (that's high) passengers along with a minimum of personal belongings. Let's even assume we have 2,000 school buses, all fueled, in working order, and with drivers. Now ... tell me what 2,000 destinations you'll send them to ... and how long it'll take you to make the arrangements ... with absolutely no fucking authority whatsoever in that destination jurisdiction!


Now, let's climb on the clue train. Have you at all noticed what's been going on since Der Fuhrer, over four days later, hugged the imported 'colored' girls and lamented the tragedy borne by the poor, disadvantaged and bereft Trent Lott?? (Trent Lott is really a tragic figure of David Copperfield proportions! In Bushworld, I guess.) Just whom do you suppose has actually done the job ... even long-belatedly. That should be a clue. They're the ones who were supposed to do it all the time!!! Do you really think, in some delusional condition, that something changed in responsibility?? Non-fucking-sense!

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[exsoccermom]

26. I can't imagine that sitting on the side of the road

in a school bus during a hurricane is a very safe thing to do. I've heard something about military bases near by the could have taken people, but were these places made available? Did FEMA have anything lined up outside of Louisiana (the whole state was pretty much covered by the hurricane warning). Obviously, the mayor of New Orleans or the governor of Louisiana can not make space available for these people in other states by their own say so.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Right, I'm just now (9/9, 10PM Central)watching C-SPAN, an interview with

John Barry, who wrote about the 1927 flood, and he points out that one of the "nightmare" scenarios for New Orleans was to have thousands of people stuck in traffic on the freeways out of town, only to be swept away by the hurricane.

[Cassandra]

39. Someone called in from Shreveport this morning..

and commented that the motels in her area were full up before the mandatory evacuation, so where were all those buses going to go?

[Barad Simith]

30. recommended for greatest page (nt)

[Oilwellian]

31. Here's a point that shuts most wing nuts up

80% of the city WAS evacuated. That's a phenomenal rate given the short time span.

[rateyes]

34. and, with all the bus-drivers gone..

who was going to drive the damned buses.

[bushisanidiot]

36. Hey, school bus drivers get paid $7/hr! that's plenty of money to risk

their lives and leave their families behind to fend for themselves.

/sarcasm

[Senator]

35. Especially because...

...only 60% was expected to be achieved in all the plans and models.

--

[unblock]

33. i bush were a genuine leader, he would have cut through the crap

if, and i mean IF there really were red tape in the way, bush would have found a way around it or, AT A MINIMUM just stand up in front of the cameras and say "state and local officials are in charge now but i am ready to take over if they ask me to; in the meanwhile i will do everything i can to assist them in their efforts".

whatever.

REAL presidents find a way. they don't hide behind bureaucracy and red tape to explain away their incompetence.

[laureloak]

37. Nothing was wrong with the NO hurricane evacuation.

It was the FLOOD evacuation that didn't work. With all communication down, executing an evacuation on a local level was impossible. IMO, the military is the only means by which an evacuation could have been successful, and if the flooding had been in Florida the President's response would have been a hell of a lot different.

An idea I really liked in your post was that of networking the citizens down to the local level, but I don't think any government could withstand the cost of evacuation and stockpiling for every storm threat.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. The stockpiled supplies would last for years

as long as you didn't include perishable food.

[FlaGranny]

38. Whoah, Lydia, you've put into words what has

been going around in my head for some time - organization right down to the "block" level.

Excellent!

[EVDebs]

41. IEM, Inc had the Bush outsourced contract worth $500K plan

IEM Team to Develop Catastrophic Hurricane Disaster Plan for New Orleans & Southeast Louisiana
June 3, 2004

""The IEM team will complete a functional exercise on a catastrophic hurricane strike in Southeast Louisiana and use results to develop a response and recovery plan. A catastrophic event is one that can overwhelm State, local and private capabilities so quickly that communities could be devastated without Federal assistance and multi-agency planning and preparedness.

Thomas said that the greater New Orleans area is one of the nation’s most vulnerable locations for hurricane landfall.

“Given this area’s vulnerability, unique geographic location and elevation, and troubled escape routes, a plan that facilitates a rapid and effective hurricane response and recovery is critical,” he said. “The IEM team’s approach to catastrophic planning meets the challenges associated with integrating multi-jurisdictional needs and capabilities into an effective plan for addressing catastrophic hurricane strikes, as well as man-made catastrophic events.”"

Hmmm. FEMA outsourced this plan...didn't execute the plan...blames state/locals they knew could be "overwhelmed" in a "catastrophic" event.

Who's playing the blame game here ? Looks very Rovian to me.

[kbm8795]

43. Excellent point!!

And moreover, I would challenge every city in this country to produce such a plan with block captains in place and shelters designated in other cities and small towns in safe areas. You can bet none of them have that kind of evacuation plan.

[Kazak]

44. I still don't think leaving them to die or fend for themselves...

is the best solution either though. How about finding a nice stretch of land which is relatively undeveloped, there must be some space around somewhere, and building a huge refugee camp, diverting some money from this god-awful war, and taking care of these people.

[EVDebs]

52. Related thread on busing evacuation...FEMA too late; state acted too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4675980&mesg_id=4701350

[RSchewe]

53. I agree to your conclusion on a city level. What about the state?

It is a useful and constructive point made here. One question I would ask beyond this point is, "What responsibilty does the governor have then as far as prearranging shelters or facilitating the routes and providing larger scale transportation?

I don't know the answer to this, but I am not sure where the line is drawn between what the state can and should do, and that for which the Federal government is responsible.

Personally, it seems that something of this scale can only be handled by the Federal government and its access to more resources to handle such a catastrophe.

So my point is, what could the state have done to help the city that it did not? Or did it do what it could?

[KT2000]

54. Exactly

their models predicted the number of people who would/could not evacuate. Those without means to charge a motel room/fill the tank/ drive the car to safety were a burden. As with most burdens - they were ignored.

In order to set up shelters outside the city, they would have to have made arrangements and recieving facilities would have had to agree to take them.

[DemonFighterLives]

56. Way to go Lydia

Busses were not on my big list. I kept wondering when the choppers would show up. This emergency escalated to that stage very rapidly and dubby just sat on his hands.
:dem:

[stevedeshazer]

59. Excellent post.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

62. Walter Meastri on Bill Maher's show said the school buses were used

Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish was interviewed last night on Bill Maher's show last night. Maher put the question to him about the photo of the school buses stranded in the water. I could swear I recall Maestri saying that Mayor Nagin in fact used those buses to evacuate the city. He said that the buses were returned to their yard before the storm hit. Did anyone else hear this?

There was supposedly a similar plan to evacuate the Florida Keys but it failed during Georges when drivers opted out. "The problem is that we may have the buses but we don’t have the drivers," said Irene Toner, director of the county’s emergency management office. "In Hurricane Georges we had 25 people on our bus-driver list and only five showed up." The bus driver union contract in New Orleans apparently didn't have an agreement whereby bus drivers would agree to handle a hurricane evacuation.

At any rate, there were about 400 to 500 buses in New Orleans, between city and school buses. At 40 people each, that's about ten percent of the people who were actually stranded without transportation. It wouldn't have helped to any significant extent, even if they actually were used.

[noamnety]

63. The buses WERE used at first

Until people began dying on them - or from dehydration shortly after getting off, because they were stuck in traffic for hours and hours in the heat, and the school buses don't have air conditioning. The people that were being evacuated on them were nursing home residents. The mayor called a halt to that after the deaths, and begged for air conditioned buses at that point - and FEMA ignored his request.

The US Government recommends evacuating school children FROM school buses when the heat index is too high, because they aren't safe.

"Extreme Heat

<snip>

* Evacuate the students to shade: trees, an overpass, or the opposite side of the school bus from the sun."

http://nhtsa.gov/people/injury/buses/UpdatedWeb/topic_8/handout9.html

[Carolab]

65. Exactly.

Which is just why a lot of people actually refuse to leave now!

They have nothing besides their home and they don't want to leave it behind...to go to what? Bogus "FEMA debit cards"?