DU and Race

[politick]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I'm still curious.

Liberals/ progressives/ dems always talk about race issues, but I think the issue is much more complicated than the platitudes with which we address it. of COURSE there should be racial equality. OF COURSE we believe in equal rights for all. Yet I still struggle -- less and less, but still -- with prejudices I've learned through growing up in a racist society. I think just recognizing them is a step in the right direction, and I can also make the distinction between my heart and my brain, an instrument easily affected by outside stimulus and programming. Furthermore, I would never, ever consider myself a racist, but I can realize that I am a white male in a society dominated by white males, and I also know that friends of mine of different races have opened my eyes to insensitivities I would never even have noticed; even after many race theory classes.

I ramble on. But all I'm wondering is how many people who post here are of color, and how everyone who posts here sees the state of race relations in the progressive community. (I was inspired to do this by the post "From a Black Perspective" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4689895&mesg_id=4689895

My intent is not to draw any conclusions -- there are myriad reasons why black or hispanic people might not post here - but just to get some thoughts.

(Sorry about the length...)

[catnhatnh]

1. I am a racist...

Born in a pure white enclave,I never MET a black until middle school.My Dad in my early years would occasionally refer to black people by epithets.Yet in even that millieu he would introduce me to black workmates as "say hello to Mr. Brantley." So even at 10 years old I knew there where both (Fill in the blank) and black folk whom my father both worked with and respected.Through school I made several black friends who were actually welcomed to our home,though, no-it was not the norm.Summertime (non-school) months were spent sailing Long Island Sound with the local gentry.When it came time to be in the service, things actually eased, they hung with theirs, we hung with ours. The Big division came between the "dopers" (read us) and the "goat ropers" (read lifers,or THEM) with a slight bias of blacks to our group.Without recounting my life in painful detail, the following have occured....
....as a foster parent, I loved and then surrendered several multi-racial kids.
....Since one of my uncles had adopted 2 multi-racial children, I got to here one of my favorite uncles implore me not to " bring anymore little ******* kids into the family.
....I married a women with a half black child I raised as my daughter.This Summer I photographed her wedding.

So how am I a racist??? Because those filthy thoughts still come into my head.Because I can still have a SINGLE black idiot send me to the edge of prejudice.And I believe that until my generation dies there can be no mistaking racial equality for the norm.

There it is...I ain't beaten none,nor owned none...but until I and my generation are gone the RESIDUALS will remain.Have you been in ANY city and not seen better relations coming along...the melting pot is HAPPENING in this generation and the results should be splendid...

[johnnie]

3. Thanks for posting this

I am aware of things that I heard and saw as a child too. Although it wasn't extreme, it was confusing and as I got older I realized how wrong those things were. As anyone who grew up in any situation, they will always remember and have the residual left somewhere in their mind. It doesn't make anyone a bad person to have been raised in that situation, it is just the way it is. It's what you realize and do about it that counts.

[catnhatnh]

7. My gentle uncle,who lived alone....

...with his pet squirrel,lived his last ten years and died in a sobriety I admire.After he achieved his sobriety, he begged forgivness for those remarks.He died at 56,heading out to pick up his daughters wedding ring.After a minor traffic accident at the end of his street he died at the roadside in what I fully expect was grace.He was 15 years older than I, and came to understand the entire racial thing was a joke...May we all so realize...

[politick]

6. God bless

you and your honesty.

(I wonder how Free Republis would respond to this...)

[politick]

10. they

would prolly be offended at my saying "God bless"...

[cynatnite]

13. I actually think it'll take more than a generation dying off...

many times these things are passed from parent to child.

I will say this. When I was growing up, I never thought much about race. I grew up in an all white town, went to an all white school and never really interacted with any other races than the few mexican families I went to church with.

It was when I joined the Army that it all changed. I learned a lot about myself and my own views. I also learned how racist our media can be. I carried those images in my brain not knowing or understanding what they meant or how they would affect me and how I behaved.

It took two very good black friends who understood this. I was called a racist by someone and it affected me deeply. My friends saw how much it upset me and I told them how I was brought up. They were surprised because they had never met anyone like me as well. I was very fortunate to have such patient friends and we still keep in touch after all these years.

I do agree that it is getting better among many people, but this govt we have is racist and looks down on the poor. The combination of the two makes those people worthless, IMO.

[manic expression]

19. It's not just your generation...

to this generation, gays are the lightning rods of bigotry. People say f** like it is nothing. I myself need to get out of the habit (6th grade insults die hard).

My genereation is not innocent of bigotry either. Intolerance will usually try to influence any group. It takes an individual to fight prejudice and intolerance.

[catnhatnh]

2. And as a kick to the thread...

...I should point out that anyone over 45 who is white and raised outside of "black influence" should admit the same.It doesn't put a hood and cross in your hand-it says, yep sometime I'm wrong...

[politick]

4. Yeah

I just think it's imprtant to be honest with ourselves about this. There's no shame in admitting prejudices. In fact, it's the struggle against it, I think, that is more noble than broad statements about equality.

Otherwise, IMHO, we're all being dishonest.

Truly, these responses caused me to well up a bit.

Gosh, I AM a bleeding heart...

[yorkiemommie1]

14. lots of young racists of all colors

being raised now. I think it's something we'll always have with us.

in group, out group. my tribe vs. the other tribe.

the differences my husband and i have are NEVER racial . They're Political ! ( But I almost have him convinced to vote for the Democrat whose campaign I've been working on - HUGE STEP ! )

[yorkiemommie1]

5. I was brought up in Hawaii

... the ideal melting pot, one would think and a truly non-racist, non-prejudicial society.

I am of the Vietnam generation, not white, not black. Asian descent.

The impression I got growing up was that Japanese married Japanese, Chinese married Chinese, etc; and 'if you date white men, no decent Chinese boy will date you'. ( AIN'T TRUE, LOL ). The mantra for me growing up was, ' Why can't you find a nice, Chinese boy? '. My dad had prejudices against every ethnic group in the state, and there were many. I was brought up w/ stereotypes of ALL of them !

We all got along in school; there were never any racial tensions. We all got along in public areas, no problem. But in the home, my parents froze up when I dated out of my ethnicity. ( When I married my white husband, however, they loved him at first sight. ) When my cousin married a black man, my mother did not invite him over, then after he did her a favor once, it was "Petey this and Petey that".

As for my inlaws, it was love at first sight w/ them too and THEY were true Democrats, unlike their son, lol. He's got his own stereotypes, when we first married, he didn't understand why I took offense at his lousy imitation of asian and spanish accents. He's gotten over that, though.

Bottom line, it's not only whites who have prejudices. ( My mama told me whites only bathed once a week, lol !!! )

edited to correct spelling .

[catnhatnh]

11. "Them People Smell Funny"...

...From a clown I worked with.In fact it was an influx of Indians (whom my boss judged (correctly)as credit worthy.The "smell" was curry powder.....And GREAT FOOD....

[politick]

12. well

thank you for bringing that up I'll also admit that i was a little wary of talking about pracism by other races, partly because of my strict liberal education :)

But it's definitely true.

Can you hear the hum of Buddha as we all harmonize and grow...?

lol

[justiceischeap]

8. Everyone has racism inside us

There's no getting around it. Racism is an unravelling thread in our society. Just like sexism and homophobia will never go away. It is engrained since childhood, if not by your parents then by classmates or television. What one has to keep in mind is any of the "ism's" come from fear and ignorance.

A perfect example of this is the whole white people finding bread and soda and black people looting bread and soda. Those kind of statements breed racism.

Homophobia is really the last acceptable class of discrimination. When people tell off-color jokes about religion or race, it's almost always done in hushed tones but those gay jokes are told right out loud for everyone to hear. Same with sexism, no one hides a blonde joke or a "bad woman driver" joke. Sorry, got a bit off track there.

The point is, it's everywhere, we are all caught in it's web, though, hopefully through each generation, it will get better.

[yorkiemommie1]

24. as for the media

well, no agent, no job, right? when you are asian and interview w/ an agent the first thing they ask is , ' can you speak chinese, ( or japanese, etc ' . If you are black, they ask if you can speak 'ghetto'.

so the agents have a mindset already . the next thing they tell you, if you are of mixed race, is ' i don't know how to place you in a family'. gee, i didn't know all roles are family roles.

so there is a mindset in hollywood as to what is cast and the agents and casting people are gatekeepers of who we see and how we see them, whether or not they are aware of their own prejudices.

btw, i hated how the word 'chinese' always seemed to be paired with the word ' inscrutable '. that was the subject of my Letter to Time Mag. waaaay back then. if it's anything i'm NOT it's inscrutable!!

[johnnie]

9. I understand what you are saying

Being around things as a child is nothing to feel guilty about. And being around it enough, you just don't shake your head and it goes away. It's like telling a child that was abused that it was their fault and they should just move on as an adult.

Sometimes people overcompensate for their guilt and go overboard on their accusations.

[politick]

17. And to clarify

my parents always bent over backwards, as their parents did (so they say), to make sure I never drew any conclusions based on race. Their greatest trait was to let me make my own decisions. I remember in Gulf War I being very pro America, and they gave no opinion. It's only in later years that I realized how much the media, et al, affected my perception of race and reality of America.

[johnnie]

25. My parents weren't too bad

My father gave us a lot of room to make up our own minds about a lot of things.

He was raised in a lot more of a racist environment than he raised us, but some slipped through. Today he doesn't say anything like that.

[catnhatnh]

15. I live in what is, in NH a "large City" of 25K....

there are not 500 blacks here.They are almost a tourist thing..In the old days I hung with some black guys..up here I don't see that happening.

[politick]

16. where are you from?

Portsmouth?

I'm from NH, originally...

[catnhatnh]

18. Originally the Lordship section of Stratford ,Ct...

an enclave of about 5000 mostly republican fools...

[catnhatnh]

20. The southern peninsular area in a town of 50k...

[politick]

21. ?

Stratford County? Or stratford connecticut...?

What town?

[stillcool]

22. In order for me to discuss racism...

on any true personal level...requires a couch and a medical degree.

[politick]

23. bah

HUMBUG!

[stillcool]

29. for sure...

racism and identity, or self-image are hard to seperate.

[catnhatnh]

27. Couch-unavailable..

...BUT tell the ABSOLUTE TRUTH past justifications..

[catnhatnh]

31. No..Im way drunk.Stratford CT

[politick]

33. oh

coz there is a Strafford county NH -- and I thought you posted s;thing about NH...

[catnhatnh]

50. Sorry Politick....

...last night was (as the C&W) song goes, a "straight tequila night"...I was raised in the town next to Bridgeport Connecticut (stratford) and now live in Rochester New Hampshire...LOVE Portsmouth but don't get down there often...Regards, Cat

[politick]

26. No one

has really responded to how many "people of color" are on DU...

(Sorry to be so definitional -- is that a word?)

[progressivebydesign]

28. There have been threads past asking that question.

People of color are here, but everything is not framed through a racial looking glass here. There may be a comment, for reference, about a DUers own race, but I think we all just co-exist and are united (mostly) in our beliefs and willingness to learn from others about their beliefs rather than who or what we are.

[politick]

30. yes

and i did want to avoid making it a race thread about RACE
but i'm still curious. maybe i'm missing the point...

[politick]

32. maybe

i'm trying to take a very difficult "people in glass houses" kind of approach, especially given the charges of racism in the federal gov't's response to katrina (which i find to be undeniable). I still think wwe ought to look at ourselves, too.

[Ravenseye]

41. Well I think the Democratic party has helped the lower classes much more

...and that tends to help minorities and blacks who tend to be poorer.

Liberals and Progressives have worked through various means to make the lives of the 'little guy' better, from labor unions, to civil rights laws. It tries to protect those that need protecting, to give a hand to those who need help, and to give equal rights to those oppressed. I say liberals and progressives, because which political party that belongs to changes with time. Right now though that's the Democratic Party in the mainstream.

So would I say that the majority of the white democratic senators have racist tendencies and thoughts, even if they don't think they do? Sure. Probably even the black senators do. All those black senators. So many of them.

Anyway actions speak louder than words.

[politick]

43. yep

Probably even the black senators do. All those black senators. So many of them.


a low wind whistles across the corridor...

[Karenina]

35. Not many as there are too few posters

like ProudDad and Catnhatnh who are open and honest about racism and white denial TRULY gets tiresome. It's the insult heaped onto the injury.

[catnhatnh]

45. Why "Bless you pea-picken' little heart"...

...as Ernie Kovacs used to say...Nights like last night, I drink, I think, and occassionally tell the truth...And as "give 'em Hell" Harry Truman used to say "I don't give them hell-I tell them the truth and they THINK it's Hell"...

[Redstone]

34. Christ, I don't have any answers. But since you asked,

I'll tell you that I am half Irish and half American Indian (with a bit of Welsh mixed in the Indian side. My wife is half French and half Mozambican (with a dash or Portuguese thrown in to the African part). There's always a honkie in the woodpile somewhere, isn't there? (That's a joke, goddammit.)

I have never had a problem because of my racial makeup. In fact, our parents didn't even tell us we were Indians until we were teenagers.

Mrs R, however, had her share of problems because of her ethnic background when she was a child (she didn't grow up in this country). She has not had any of those problems since coming to the US, though.

So there you have our story. Make of it what you will.

Redstone

[scarletlib]

36. Speaking as a white person with an interracial family and who

has spent the bulk of her career working with and among African-Americans, I am sad to say that most white people, even progressive liberals like me, harbor the disease of racism within us.

I don't think we will ever end this as an issue in this country until we have a real national conversation on the issue. To many white folk are afraid to bring these issues up and discuss with people of color.

In my humble opinion racism and its negative effects on all of us but especially on African Americans is the great STAIN on our country. We need a real national discussion and acknowledgment of what slavery did to and for all the people in this country: how the nation benefited from the unpaid labor of slaves, how property of free black men was stolen and on and on and on. Until we acknowledge the wrong that was done, the continuing harm and the debt we owe to our brothers and sisters this stain will remain.

People can say what they will about why what happened in New Orleans occurred but for me it was primarily racism. If these people, poor as they were, had been mostly white I truly believe the crew of assholes running this country would have gotten off their rich white asses a lot sooner to get aid to the victims of the storm. That's just my opinion. I am deeply saddened and outraged by what I saw but given what is going on in this country today, I am not really that surprised.

[politick]

38. Yeah

But for me, sadly, the racism is so institutional that to say the response was strictly "racist" as we understand it, direct acts against another race, isn't exactly true in the case of Katrina.

But that also gets into a weird place of semantics -- but I do believe that the race issue has almost dissolved into differences of class by now.

That said, the INSTITUTIONAL racism in this country is undeniable and permeating. AS Chomsky put it, the genocide on American Indians -- that's what it was -- is our Original Sin. And bnuilding the infrastructure of our country with black slaves is something we cannot escape.

So now what?

[Ravenseye]

37. Arab American

I've been not just verbally attacked but physically attacked for my ethnicity (there is no 'race') in the past. Thanks to the darker color of my skin and my black hair I've been assaulted on multiple occasions, and not just post 9/11 but all along through my life.

What's worse is that I've found that even people who proclaim they aren't racist will say or do things with a straight face that are. There are many people in this country with a deep hatred and disrepsect of Arabs that extends well before 9/11. They say things about Arabs that if they were about Jews or Blacks would turn back upon them, yet very few people react when it's about an Arab.

I think the progressive community needs to get off it's high minded horse and realize that while we have far fewer outward racists these days, that the stereotypes and predjudices remain in many of us.

[politick]

39. yes

outward prejudice against Arabs is the last acceptable one in the US. We can make jokes about Arabs -- and, actually, Asians, too -- without repercussion.

And you're right. I remember, with shame, just after 9-11, seeing an Arab man on the subway in Boston, and feeling frightened, wondering if he was one of the armies of evil doers. All the while, I was entirely anti-Bush and repulsed by the country's response to all this. Nonetheless, I recognized, even in that moment, that I was having a racist/ prejudiced/ bigoted reaction to what had happened, and it made me really look at myself.

And my beautiful mind...

btw, at Freerepublic.com last night (I tried to post but was kicked off) they were referring to journalists who may have wanted to photograph dead bodies in NO as "Arabs." Why? Because it's something they can say to reflect something they hate and fear. And on there, that's totally aacceptable.

[Ravenseye]

40. Yup. Arabs are evil.

I remember sitting in an american history class in high school and the freeper in training next to me made a comment about "all ragheads are 'baby killers'". I turned to him and said 'Excuse me?'. He said "What?" with a blank look on his face. When I explained to him that I was an arab, and then asked him if he thought I was a baby killer he said "Come on that's not what I meant."

And crap like that.

The teacher of course did nothing.

Can you imagine what would have happened to him if in the middle of an american history class he had said "All niggers like to rape white women" or something equally offensive? He'd have been at the very least removed from class, if not suspended.

Meanwhile there's someone out there reading me saying this thinking "It's not the same thing." That's part of the problem. Even among progressives I meet people who just can't equate saying negative things about Arabs with any other racist statement, because the hatred and distrust of Arabs is really that deep. It's so deep I've wondered if it really does go all the way back to the crusades for european decendants.

[politick]

42. totally

and yet, i want to avoid being sterile and overly academic about all this. because i think it's important to understand where we are and where we're coming from. and to see how it not "different" to make jokes about arabs. part of the way i deal with it -- i do standup -- is by joking about it. theres a fine line there, somewhere, and i'm very interested in exploring it.

where do you find the line in "racial humor"?

[Ravenseye]

44. Well the line is difficult to place

Definately a member of an ethnicity is free to make any joke about a stereotype or use a term of disparagement. I've had other arab friends who have been like "What's up raghead?" though we don't do it much. Still if someone else were to do it to me who wasn't arab I would generally not like it.

I think it has to also do with familiarity. I have a jewish friend and we'll make those kinds of comments to each other as jokes, simply because we know they aren't true.

Yet the jokes we'll make in private amongst friends, if heard by someone else....well you'd think we were totally evil.

So it's a matter of trust and familiarity. Joking relationships and the like per I think VG Childe.

[tjdee]

46. There are plenty of black posters here...I'm one.

There are a number of other minority posters (Asians, etc.) here as well. There's an African American issues group, also.

I think as far as race relations go, things are viewed differently according to generation. I'm at the tail end of the Gen X'ers, and our experiences are clearly different than the Boomers.

In the progressive community I think people are trying, which is more than I can say for the rest of folks.

[catnhatnh]

47. Can you expand on your experiences?

How old is a "tail end" Gen Xer?

[tjdee]

48. I'm almost 29.

(that looks really old ugh! And I know it's not, blah blah blah).

What I mean, basically, is that we have no memory at all of the civil rights movement. We know it from television, but we didn't live it. When we lived in the South for a few years, I could sit wherever I wanted to on whatever bus I wanted to, and use whatever rest room I wanted. I don't immediately distrust white people, for example, as many of my older relatives do.

But racism has gotten a lot more sophisticated. It's in fact hard to give concrete examples off the top of my head because I'm tired, LOL, but also because people cover their asses a lot more...actually I think at this point racism and classism have merged quite significantly. When someone mentions the poorest city in the area, and you see the white people get uncomfortable, you know it isn't because they're afraid of the poor people. They're afraid of the black people.

But that isn't the progressive community...with the progressive community, some the older white folks I know (like, my friends' parents) tend to do some of the 'liberal guilt' thing...it's kind of cute that they seem to want to impress upon me how cool they are about race. For instance, talk about some black person they saw on tv and isn't that great that he fought so much and is a great example for everyone. I know they mean well...but oy! Not everyone is like that, obviously.

[catnhatnh]

49. Thanks for the quick (but interesting) reply...

...and I'm so old I couldn't picture what your view might be...Nice to know that certain of we old people could be considered "cute"..Major improvment over back when we were just commies or racists LOL...Your comment on the melding of racism and classism rings of the truth...as in comments about "them" (poor whites) being "no better than" etc,etc...I lived for a time in low income housing and as one of the 10% or less whites there I have a pretty good idea of what it feels like to fear your police department more than your supposedly "dangerous" neighbors...Heres to the improvements already made and hope for a democratic future....

[bobbieinok]

51. helpful discussion at this time

learned about it in the African-American group