I remember the "Is Bush a Nazi" arguments that raged on DU

[burythehatchet]

about 2 or 3 months ago. For the record, I believe Bush is a nazi. I even got through on the phone to Jerry Springer and made the point that Hitler didn't start out with 6,000,000 killed. He had to start somewhere also.

So anyway, now that dubya's body count has pumped up by at least 40,000 (I have estimated 100,000 BEFORE counting the deaths that will come from disease), is there anyone who wishes to reconsider their perspective? You know the "when you call Bush a Nazi you insult you, you insult me, you lower the level of discourse on DU, blah blah friggin blah blah blah.

Any converts?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

1. I Could Visualize Shrub Shaking Hands With Hitler.

If there was something in it for him, Shrub would have no problem associating with someone like that, which basically makes him the same.

This country is on it's way to becomming a Facist state, if not there already. Too bad nobody really cares anymore, and the right wing has basically put us back 50 years.

[porphyrian]

4. His family did, didn't they? - n/t

[Taxloss]

13. Like this?

[onecent]

2. The only difference between Bush & Hitler is the mustache!!!!n/t

[Splatter Phoenix]

34. I resent that remark.

Hitler, though a monster, was a genius--there's no denying that.
Bush, though a monster, couldn't follow an episode of Sesame Street.

[texastoast]

51. LOL! You are right

Sesame Street. I wish I'd thought of that.

:dunce:

[bunyip]

68. ;)

Other differences btw Bush and Hitler

Hitler was a twice-decorated war veteran.
Bush was a coke-fiend and a deserter.

Hitler wrote his own speeches.
Bush needs a teleprompter to ask for the salt.

Hitler was actually elected.


Bush is just a lesser class of menace.

[cssmall]

3. It runs in the fucking family.

nt

[TahitiNut]

5. I'll continue to regard him as a fascist of the Mussolini kind.

Bushoilini. Afghanistan was his Ethiopia.

[I Have A Dream]

52. Here's a relevant quote...

"Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

I think this perfectly describes the current state of our country. (Hopefully it's not beyond repair.)

[Atman]

6. This wasn't a figurative argument

Prescott Bush supported the Nazi party financially. When his bank was shut down by the feds under the Trading With The Enemies Act, Bush was allowed to keep approximately $1.5 mil of his ill-gotten gains. He gave this money to the election campaign of #1 son GHW Bush, who bought himself an election to the Connecticut legislature with it.

GHW was big into the Eugenics movement of the 50's; race purification and Nazi-ism by another name.

So, while W may not directly be a member of the Nazi party, he owes his very career to bloody Nazi money going all the way back to grandmpa.

Oh, but did you hear? Clinton got a blowjob!

[benburch]

7. I think he's a fascist, not a Nazi.

More like Benito Mussolini.

http://peau2banane.free.fr.nyud.net:8090/mini-mussolini_dead.jpg

[robcon]

8. Bush is no Nazi

To call him one is to belittle the suffering of the millions under the Nazis, IMO.

[benburch]

10. That's a nonsense agrument, IMO.

And it prevents proper recognition of future Holocausts before the occur. You HAVE to be able to call a leader a Nazi if you are to keep the "Never Again" promise.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Thank you!

I see us slipping into another horror that will not be THE Holocaust, but will certainly be A Holocaust.

We need to be able to call out leaders and governments when they start behaving in a way that genocidal leaders and governments have behaved in the past. That is the only way to recognize them before the bulk of the damage is done.

[TahitiNut]

72. You don't get it.

We're supposed to WAIT until eleven million people are murdered.
Only then will the political correctness police issue permits allowing us to Hail the Fuehrer.
:sarcasm:

[corkhead]

14. When I first skimmed this message,

I thought you were saying that calling * a Nazi was an insult to other Nazi's.

sorry, the mind does strange things.

[K-W]

25. You want to explain your logic? EOM

[txindy]

29. Ridiculous. Hitler didn't start off by murdering millions at once

It built gradually. If we don't learn from history, we repeat it. Or haven't you learned even THAT much from history?

[norml]

33. Nazi is as Nazi does. Anyone behaving like a Nazi deserves to be called

on it.

Sure, the Soup Nazi didn't kill millions of people, but we know it's his behavior that's being talked about.

The methods and ideologies of the movement that calls itself conservative are Nazi methods and Nazi ideologies.

In time they may out Nazi the Nazis and the Stalinist body count.

They have the potential to kill not just millions but billions.

[Occulus]

39. It's the same evil, though,

so WHAT THE FUCK?

[stepnw1f]

41. Debating Your Point, Would Belittle the Suffering of RW Propaganda

Suffer.

[mitchum]

71. Oh, give him time

give him time

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. Herr Busch is just getting started. One more point....

...nobody here is belittling anyone, so as far as I'm concerned you can skip that discussion.

[cynatnite]

74. He can be a Nazi without having murdered millions

bush murdered thousands, so far.

[Moochy]

9. tricky

Definitions like that are tricky.
Do you mean he actually is a closeted schwastika wearing boot stepping hitler lover? or are you meaning that his political allies (read controllers) just want the same thing that hitler wanted and execute from the same playbook?
Bush and many bushlovers are too blindly patriotic to see the difference.
He's a republican neo-con fascist corporate whore who's rapidly approaching world class war criminal status. :wow:

Who knows if he's got a hankering for sharp uniforms and anti-semitic genocide on his mind. I kind of doubt it.

[burythehatchet]

11. no, I mean more so his view of humanity and his

absolute incapacity for compassion.

[Moochy]

15. See now that's an important distinction!

... dontcha think ? :shrug:

[burythehatchet]

49. nah. that would be a distinction that matters very little to a

non-caucasian who has no political power.

[jmowreader]

48. He loves sharp uniforms!

As for Bush's genocide...he isn't anti-Semitic. At least I don't think he's anti-Semitic. He is very much anti-poor, and anti-anyone whose land is over his oil.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stillcool]

17. Who's a wacko?

Way more than 40,000 deaths can be placed squarely in the hands of George Bush. You need to read some more, and take something for that memory problem.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

23. How about 3000 for 9/11 (8/6/2001 PDB), War in Iraq almost 1900

US soldiers, over 100,000 Iraqis and remember DU, the gift that keeps giving. How many were killed in Haiti after our coup? How many now from Katrina???? Oops! Forgot the EPA report to NYC saying it was safe to go back to work and live in the WTC vicinity. Well thousands have severe respiratory problems now...

He has lots of blood on those hands of his.

[redsoxliberal]

31. oh i agree he has blood on his hands, but be reasonable

3,000 for 9/11?
He did not act... but he didn't DO it. It wasn't done under his command.
100,000 in Iraq?
I disagree with the war most strongly... I believe that he was and still is wrong with his Iraq policy, and that he must take a lot of blame for the deaths that have taken place... but he did not systematically kill them or order them killed. There have been shameful things taking place as a result of the war... but to compare any of it to Hitler is outrageous.

What I see when I look at Nazi Germany is the systematic murder of millions of innocent... independent of any war initially... pure human cruelty.

When I see George W. Bush, I see bad judgement, politics that in most cases I strongly disagree with... but 9/11 certainly wasn't carried out by him... his neglegence may have contributed in a small way, but comparing it to nazi death camps is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on the "internets." Not to mention idiotic.

Posts like yours make the far left look crazy to the rest of the country, and ruins our credibility.

[mvd]

35. I see more than bad judgment

Bush is a psychopath - and an dangerous leader. He might not have killed his own citizens or ordered genocide, like Hitler did - and I use fascist instead of Nazi - but if we play down Bush's crimes, we risk more ruin coming. We should focus on the whole right wing movement, too.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

36. I happen to believe that at best he let 9/11 happen and at worse that

he had his hands in it.

Iraq blood is totally on his hands! It was an illegal, immoral war. By his going in there, he was a cold blooded murderer.

This is the way I feel, and I know I am not a far left crazy minority on this board. As to what the rest of the country thinks? One day I pray to God/Goddess that they wake up before it's too late.

People were silent or worried about what others thought too as Hitler rose to power.

[redsoxliberal]

37. well then I can leave this discussion knowing

that I wasted my time with a couple of lost causes.

Most people would consider me pretty damn far left... but you just don't know your history.

[Sterling]

61. Give us a history lesson please.

Tell us how the posters you are responding to do not understand history plz.

[redsoxliberal]

69. basic: Bush has not been trying to kill civillians

he may have little regard for the lives of many... but Hitler HATED many, and actively tried to kill any civillian he deemed unworthy of living in the third reich.

As I said, Bush has bad politics... I disagree with him on most issues... but comparisons to Hitler are assanine and they ruin the credibility of the left.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. I would argue that "shock and awe" was definitely,....

...and specifically, used to kill civilians in the hope that the Iraqi people would be suitably intimidated.

I would also argue that the effects of "collateral damage" on the Afghan and Iraqi civilian populations was all part of the NeoCon plan for the Middle East.

Additionally, you don't have a clue who the Bush family hates, but the fact that Prescott Bush helped fund Nazi Germany tells me a great deal about the thinking prevalent in that family.

IMHO, your attempts to discredit comparisons between Hitler and Herr Busch are "assanine and they ruin" your credibility on this board.

[Occulus]

40. And do you think Hitler just woke up one fine day and said,

"I think I'll start killing off Jews today!"

No. That is NOT what happened. That was near the end.

Even Hitler started somewhere.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

43. Hitler was 5 years into power when he created the Nuremberg Race Laws.

George has a running start.

[smirkymonkey]

57. I believe he started with the homosexuals and the leftists.

Hmmm....

[burythehatchet]

47. thanks you. the last line of your post is off by a few words

but it'll pass. blah blah fuckity blah blah blah

[I Have A Dream]

54. At first, I didn't know which way I felt about this.

However, I think that the difference between B* and the Nazis is that people aren't dying under B* because he's purposefully going after them to eliminate them. This is a very big difference.

The results of his actions are still absolutely terrifying, but they're mostly caused by his just... not... caring.

[burythehatchet]

19. how can anyone blame hitler

for killing all those Jews. How many did he actually kill? There were so many people who ran the camps, and the railroads?

and

I'll wait a few minutes for you to edit the contents in your post. Mods really like to delets my posts, and its usually because some &^%&**% person thinks its ok to call someone a wacko:mad:

[redsoxliberal]

32. see post 31. I continue to believe you're nuts.

[FloridaPat]

16. I said that in 2001. * is doing a good job of following Hitler's playbook.

However, I heard Hitler was charasmatic. Can't say the same for *, although people who have actually met him say they like him.

Another main difference between the two is Hitler was competent with competent people behind him.

[firefox]

18. Yes, he is a fascist and a wannabe dictator

I can accept Nazi as shorthand for fascist, so therefore Bu$h is a Nazi.

[librechik]

20. I KNOW Shrub is a Nazi, here's why:

Mark Felt, AKA "Deep Throat" thought that group (Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Nixon, Bush Sr, Kissinger even) were Nazis. Not Nazi-like, but actual Nazis with a capital N: dedicated footsoldiers who sneaked a bunch of German Nazi Uber Officers into the country in 1946 and into cushy jobs with the CIA. In 1972 they were in control of the country, and they are (again?) now, too. Why would the deputy Director of the FBI think this if he didn't have info to convince him?

He wouldn't--it would have been as risky to mistakenly believe that then as it is now.

Shrub is a Nazi, his Dad is a Nazi, His Grandpa was a Nazi, and all their important friends (Cheney and Rummy are in this group) are Nazis too. Period.

[burythehatchet]

21. Rummy sure doesn't need a costume does he?

[librechik]

26. nope. he's from central casting!

[Mutley]

22. I'll say this...

Get ready to shop for armbands with a big fat "L" on them...

[Dem Agog]

24. I have called him Boy Hitler from Day 1...

Is he a Nazi? No, I don't think he's smart enough.

He's the short bus version of Hitler.

[Cleita]

27. I was on the "Bush is a Nazi" train long before then.

There was even a post by a DUer several years ago in which she said she dreamed Bush was the reincarnation of Hitler. So she looked up the dates of Hitler's death and about the time George HW would have impregnated Barbara/Echidna (the mother of all monsters in Greek mythology) and the dates were in sync. However, we were just amusing ourselves with that.

Seriously, though, how this administration is repeating history is truly alarming.

[havocmom]

28. Have ta tell ya, I was damned nervous about all the people on busses.

Very glad they made it to their shelter destinations. In the back of my mind, there was real fear for those people while they were in transit.

[txindy]

30. You mean the ones in fenced shelters who have no access out?

And the media and public have no access in? Like this one: http://www.denverpost.com/carman/ci_3006502

There are others.

[jokerman93]

38. George Sr.'s New World Order

A corporatist/theocratic one world government in the mold of Amerika 2005 c.e.?

I don't know. Sounds a lot like the nazi wet dream of a fourth reich to me. Can any historians here briefly outline the difference between the Neocon vision of a world empire and the aspirations of the nazi conquest?

Could be a useful discussion "at this juncture".

[tx_dem41]

42. I can't believe people waste time with this crap.

I know...no one made me open the thread. Bye.

[burythehatchet]

46. Your profound disappointment and disapproval noted. n/t

[faithfulcitizen]

44. 100,000+++ Iraqi civilians alone have died.

[mogster]

45. I think the nazi-image may be a ruse because it's so tied to the past

The nazi-image are so imprinted in people's minds as a German, foreign phenomenon, so it may work against what is actually the purpose with a comparison; to see Bush' cruelty and the danger he poses to us all. If you want to reform the rightwingers, that is. I guess most liberals already have made the comparison themselves.

But I agree there are ample evidence that this regime has both ties to, and are inspired by, the nazi-regime of Hitler. 911 was the Reichstag fire, wether they planned it or not. PNAC has admitted to be inspired by 'empires of the past' - do we really believe they would have skipped the fastest and most successfull revolution ever?

Here's a snippet from Hitler.
In his speech in the Reichstag on 23 March 1933, two months after he took power, Hitler said:

"Hardly ever has a revolution on such a large scale been carried out in so disciplined and bloodless a fashion as this renaissance of the German people in the last few weeks."

Can you say Washington year 2000?

In his speech to the Reichstag on 30 January 1937 Hitler said:

"During the last four years a revolution of the most momentous character has passed like a storm over Germany. . . When the Party took over power in Germany, after overthrowing the very formidable obstacles that stood in its way, it did so without causing any damage whatsoever to property. I can say with a certain amount of pride that this was the first revolution in which not even a window-pane was broken."

It would suit the neocons very well.

And then there's the propaganda element.
Look at this - it's a very strong picture. How cunning was the people planning this rally (probably from Nurnberg in '38)?
Dive into it. Feel the strength glowing from that mass of people. How was it to stand down there among the moving crowd? It's almost like an organism.



Bush has the capacity to do much, much more damage than Hitler, and the most important thing; they do not have any normal limits, these people. We live in the most dangerous of times.

[burythehatchet]

50. well said dude/ette

wish I could nominate your response.

[Cats Against Frist]

55. Awesome post.

I tend to think that the use of "nazi" to describe the neo-theo-corpo fascists tends to backfire, as well. Even though I believe that it is damn near apropos, as far as philosophy goes, that the Nazis were their own specific brand of supremacism, magical thinking and genocidal verve. As kind of a stickler for detail, it seems to me that calling Bush a Nazi, is like calling Howard Dean a Maoist -- not because of degree or severity but simply because it not nomenclatur-ally (?) accurate.

I think that, though I don't attribute all the power to the Chimperor, that the right-wing philosophy that is currently a part of this country is ever bit as dangerous as Nazi occultism, idealism and "final solutionism." I've said this, before, but no matter how kooky-sounding, the Holocaust was rational and a product of modernity, and authority -- something that we could understand, and defeat on the "merits," if you will. The neocons are postmodern n'er-do-wells, and the theocons are pre-modern n'er do wells -- and the corpo-fascists don't care, so long as they make money. At any rate, the neoocons -- the brains behind this operation -- are fully aware that there are no "absolutes," just OPINIONS, and, as they were so damningly quoted in the Suskind article "history's actors," creating "new realities," that we can all watch them create and take away, at will. That is, perhaps, the most postmodern political statement ever uttered in the history of humans.

Couple this with the magical thinking of the theocons and the whole shebang's reliance on the power of myth and the "perception" of reality, and you've got yourself a new kind of fascism that completely eclipses the modern tripe that Hitler thought up, on his most villainous day. This thing deserves its own name. I like the umbrella of "fascist." I say we leave the Nazis to the Nazis, and figure out, specifically, what the fuck we're dealing with, here.

[jokerman93]

78. I think you nailed it

"Couple this with the magical thinking of the theocons and the whole shebang's reliance on the power of myth and the "perception" of reality, and you've got yourself a new kind of fascism that completely eclipses the modern tripe that Hitler thought up, on his most villainous day. This thing deserves its own name. I like the umbrella of "fascist." I say we leave the Nazis to the Nazis, and figure out, specifically, what the fuck we're dealing with, here."

Hi Cats. Thanks for introducing this into the meme-stream!

:-)

At this point we probably do need to move past the sport of naming the beast. It's an academic exercise anyway. For me, "Neocon" works just fine. After all we've witnessed over the last five and a half years, I'm guessing the label "Neocon" probably means something like: millennial christo-fascist hypno-authoritarian global corporatism" (did I miss anything? :-))

Which is to say, a nazi is a nazi; a neocon is a neocon, and they are both from the same dangerous neighborhood.

I'd say "Nazi" is a unique flavor, or maybe more aptly, a sub-species of this authoritarian fascism that just seems to not want to go away. It should be obvious to most folks by now though, we really do need to get this all out on the table and examine the nature of the beast we're dealing with here - though it might be an uglier exploration than we care to think about.

This Neocon thing isn't going to just go away. It will only grow unless the people of this country start deciding seriously what kind of outcome they really want for America, and by extension, what kind of world we want to leave as a legacy to our children and grandchildren.

This isn't politics anymore and it's certainly not a game.

J

[Dinger]

53. Wasn't The bu$h Family Fortune Built With Nazi Money?

You know, Prescott, Trading With the Enemies Act, WWII, etc., etc.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Check out www.tarpley.net for a background history

[Dangerman]

59. I said it before...

Bush is a murderer.
His father is a murderer.
His grandfather supported a murderer.

It runs in the family.

[Qibing Zero]

60. I'm working on a writeup of this administration vs nazism myself actually.

There are striking similarities...

[burythehatchet]

62. be sure to post it here when you're done.

[Qibing Zero]

64. I will definitely.

I had the idea recently, and started writing a few days ago. The entire work seems to be moving toward the current situation in America, with a declaration of sorts for the finale, but the nazism/fascism part continues to hold even more weight than I originally thought.

[burythehatchet]

63. here's your paper

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2069007

[Qibing Zero]

65. Hah, some of the same ideas there

Completely different format, but that is a very good summary.

[MojoXN]

66. If a German city had drowned in 1937...

Adolf Hitler wouldn't have waited five days to send food and water. He actually CARED about his people, at least the Aryan ones. Monster that he was, even HE wouldn't have sat on his ass and compounded the situation, making a bad thing so very much worse.

MojoXN

[Skittles]

67. you never got any argument from me

I've always thought bush acts like a Nazi and that all his supporters goose-step to him

[Bonhomme Richard]

70. They may not be Nazi's but they are.................

just as dangerous to this country and the world as the Nazi's were to Germany.

So in my view..........Same Difference

[titoresque]

76. I've always thought he's a Nazi

and every decision he makes just proves it more and more. Also.....he's from a long line of Nazi's....it's in the blood.
Gramps helped Hitler, and the rest is family history.

Just a vile family! Ick!

[Gregorian]

77. Hitler was a failure. A loser. But he got lucky.

The similarities are frightening. The more I discover about how Hitler got started, and how he thought, the more I cringe with fear. Hitler didn't know his own strength. It seems that he ended up in his postition through some luck. He was, after all, attracted to being an artist. I think the most important thing I have learned about the rise of Hitler is the importance of the peripheral people around him. This is where I get the most frightened. It's as though the birthing Nazi party engulfed and promoted him to be their man. I see the Cheneys and Rumsfelds and Wolfowitzs on the same level as those who dragged Hitler into position. But Hitler developed a vision. His imagination grew like a cancer. He went from loser, to leader. That is where the similarities end. Bush couldn't do anything. And in fact, I think all of this attention that Bush gets is a big waste of time.
I don't know. I'm probably full of it. I know one thing- the evil that lurked within the Nazis is the same evil that lurks today. THAT is what we're up against. Regardless of Bush, when men congregate and grow hatred, like the Nazi party, it can become a monster. I'm still scared. You can see the monster when you put the pieces together. I don't think they're as obvious as they were back then. I just hope we can work this other end, to cut this thing down that's growing in our capital.

[Moderator]

79. Locking....

This is flamebait.