Talked a Republican into voting for Clark

[janekat]

I filled her in on Traitorgate, the lies about Iraq, Cheney-Halliburton, Rush Limbaugh, Arnold - she said she's totally digusted with the Republican Party - that Bush doesn't know what he's doing...

She's really P.O.'d about the leak and that Bush & Co. is fighting against the CIA.

Told her Clark was A Rhodes scholar, had been a professor of econ, has master's degrees in Economics and Philosophy and that he was very intelligent. She was really impressed with that.

[WillyBrandt]

1. Good work

Inside every good Republican there's a Democrat trying to get out.

(yes, I just came up with that myself :) )

[neverforget]

2. LOL! I love that saying!

Good job Janekat on your conversion of a Repub to Democrat!

[janekat]

3. She was a die-hard Republican before also - she has kids in the

military - so she like the "General" bit I'm sure.

[Cocoa]

4. if she's disgusted with the Republican Party

why is she voting for Clark?

edit: just a jab. Clark is a dem, he's just the most republican dem running.

[Julien Sorel]

6. Because she's smarter than the conspiracy theorists here.

Not all Republicans are dumb. Most conspiracy theorists are, however.

[Cocoa]

9. I don't think Clark is a mole

I do think, however, that we now have eight democrats and one republican to choose from for the democratic nomination.

[WillyBrandt]

10. Two Republicans

Lieberman and Dean.

[liberalnurse]

30. No need for falsehoods....

Dean has always been a democrat; since college when the voting age was 21. Lieberman is and always has been a registered democrat.

Can't say that for Clark....sorry.....the truth is what it is....

[JohnKleeb]

67. oh you meant registered I am so sorry ln

I saw you say this earlier and you said life and I read somewhere and there aint a problem with this because I am almost positive they were Rockefeller republicans, I read that growing up the Deans were republican not a thing wrong with it.

[Julien Sorel]

14. Same as a conspiracy theorist, since you continue

believing something that's highly improbable, and for which there's plenty of countervailing evidence that you willfully choose to ignore. Again, the Republican lady has more sense.

[Wonk]

19. Next you'll be telling us Clark never said this:

Wes Clark, in his own words, 200k

Oh, and re: "Conspiracy theorists are dumb", are you trying to say that Watergate, Iran/Contra, Standard Oil, 9/11, etc were just coincidences?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00092.htm

[Julien Sorel]

22. Clark has said and done plenty of other things as well.

Selective perception is one of the problems conspiracy theorists have -- they tend to see a different version of reality than most other folks do.

[janekat]

29. Dean: welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem, If they did, they'd

be working"

"Dean was the type of leader who, while supporting a 1996 welfare-reform bill, said welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem, If they did, they'd be working." Does this sound like an individual who understands the needs of Americans in jobless economy?"
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/08/3f5bfae969924

[Wonk]

35. You're now hijacking your own thread with non-sequiturs about Dean? nt

[liberalnurse]

39. This has been going on since this morning!

Dean bashing with every stroke of the keyboard.

:puke: Same old shit posting......

same old republican-lite rants....

Its a damn shame .....I ask myself, "Can these people actually be democrats?"

[SWPAdem]

50. That's a question I have been asking myself all day

Let's go back and count the number of anti-Clark threads, shall we, and see who has been busiest....or are we not allowed to respond?

[liberalnurse]

60. Not me.....

do a search...Only 2 threads...all responding to Dean Bashing!!!!!

[SWPAdem]

68. Answer this question

Why did you enter this thread if not to engage in Clark bashing? Nothing about Dean in the title......

[Forkboy]

73. Maybe somepeople just read all the threads and comment

when they want to.Public discussions boards are like that.
Can we assume that you wont be entering any threads that do have Dean in the title unless it's only to bash Dean?

[SWPAdem]

76. It's a legitimate question

Liberalnurse is complaining about all the Dean bashing but she has done nothing but bash Clark and Clark supporters in this thread. What would you think?

BTW, show me a link where I bashed Dean or any other candidate. My focus has been on the tactics of bashers, not their candidates.

[Forkboy]

79. and my answer could be a legitimate answer

[SWPAdem]

82. Irrelevant point as the question was not directed to you

n/t

[Forkboy]

84. oh well

thats discussion boards for ya :shrug:

[janekat]

77. That's how I'm choosing to repond - with actual quotes from your Hero.

I'm dealing in facts - NOT conjecture. BTW - I only respond when the Deannieboppers start bashing.

If I start a thread it's with an article with links. Never see a lot of you Dean fans do that... There's a few who do.

[Wonk]

83. Hold on a second. Are you talking to me or voices in your head?

Point me to any thread on DU where I've called Dean "my hero". I'm still open minded on most of the field of Dem candidates.

Find me a thread I've started on a potentially volatile subject matter where I didn't back up my claims with links.

If you have a problem with some DUers posting habits then take it up with them, preferably in their threads.

[Cocoa]

23. his being a republican isn't a matter of "truth"

I don't think there's some knowable "truth" about whether he's a republican. It's not like a reptilian monster with a mask on.

It's more complicated than ripping a mask off, I'm going to have to hear him at debates. I'm sure the other candidates will do a good job in challenging him to articulate and defend his views, and we'll see how much of a dem he turns out to be.

[Julien Sorel]

24. Now you pretend you have an open mind;

but a couple of posts ago you made the absolute statement that he's a Republican.

Post with integrity, or don't post.

[Cocoa]

31. you're right

I edited the post to clarify it was just a jab. :-)

[ShaneGR]

17. Name me a Republican who is the following:

pro-choice, pro-labor, pro-environment, and willing to cut the Pentagon budget.

He said exactly that during the debate in NYC. You may choose to believe the right-wing hype but I would only ask you to take a second look.

[Cocoa]

21. I have an open mind about Clark

but at this point, with eight dems with long records as dems, I can't imagine him overcoming my doubts enough for me to vote for him in the primary. I can't even imagine him getting ahead of Lieberman on my list.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. *cough cough*

I have an open mind about Clark

*cough cough* completeandutterbullshit *cough cough*

DTH

[Cocoa]

44. why?

You'll see as the campaign progresses that I will be making posts asking for more info about Clark, and I will be paying attention to his answers at debates.

You may have seen posts where I praised Clark for things such as issuing a statement on the Census report released last weekend on increased poverty, which Bush as far as I know has not addressed.

[janekat]

8. Wesley Clark on the Issues

I'm going to post this EVERY time one of you Deannieboppers says that.

Wesley Clark:

"would consider cutting defense spending if elected, he said. "We are trapped in .....an endless occupation" of Iraq".

Supports University of Michigan's affirmative action plan. (Jun 15)

"I'm concerned about the lock-up policy, the 3-strikes policy, putting people in jails and the way we've treated people in prison. We've got to look seriously at the American penal system and what it does when it returns people to the streets."

Full sunshine review of PATRIOT Act. (Jun 19)

We went into Iraq under false pretenses. There was deceptive advertising; you'd be taking to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq.”

”We're taking casualties. We haven't made America safer by this. We've made America more engaged, more vulnerable, more committed, less able to respond. We've lost a tremendous amount of goodwill around the world by our actions and our continuing refusal to bring in international institutions. “

Compared Bush to Nixon in abusing his power to bully Congress and US allies. "This is an administration which has moved in a way we have not seen any administration since Nixon to abuse executive authority to scheme, manipulate, intimidate and maneuver.”

"We've found many times in our experience that it's best to use force only as a last resort."

”Why are so many here in America hesitant to speak out and ask questions? We're going to ask those hard questions. And in a time of war, we're going to ask those questions in the highest sense of patriotism. We are going to hold the administration accountable for its policies and results.”


Disturbed that we suspended habeus corpus for War on Terror. (Mar 23)

"we should be very reluctant to use force. It has incredible, difficult and unintended consequences, which we are once again beginning to see as we deal with the situation in Iraq."

Supports funding for all-day kindergarten

Establish 18:1 student-teacher ratio for grade school. (Mar 1999)

Decries lack of funding for No Child Left Behind. (Apr 28)

“The way to deal with Castro is to send Cuba American tourists, American goods and American farm products. There could be no better way to deal with this last vestigial form of Communism than to turn American business and American agriculture loose on them.”

Work with the International Criminal Court. (Jul 2002)

Invest 3% of GDP on development assistance abroad. (Nov 2001)

Supports ban on assault weapons

Supports universal health coverage

Immigration is vital to prosperity. (Jun 17)

I am very pro-immigration. (Jun 27)

The military needs to reconsider the "don't ask, don't tell" policy for gay service members.

$5T tax cuts for the rich are legalized theft. (Jun 20)

Supports redistribution by progressive taxation. (Jun 19)

Supports a "freeze" on Bush's tax cuts that have yet to take effect for people earning $150,000 or more.

Need Marshall Plan for Middle East and Afghanistan. (Jun 17)

We went into Iraq under false pretenses. (Aug 17)

Israel: bring in Syria and Iran into peace talks. (Jun 17)

NATO was the reason for our victory in Kosovo. (Sep 2002)

Palestinians decided to return to terrorism after 2000. (Mar 2002)

Solution to terrorism is not bullets but world community. (Oct 2001)

[HootieMcBoob]

12. Thank you.

Please. Every time.

Clark will be able to accomplish things that no other president would be able to because he'll bring the country together again. When the issues are looked at without a personality attached to them the country leans more to the left of the political spectrum over all then the right.

Clark is capable of the Nixon to China thing. He'll be able to move the country in a much more progressive direction.

Please keep posting his issues.

[janekat]

37. You or anyone else is welcome to use them also - just copy and

paste the whole thing.

[liberalnurse]

54. Well now...

:puke:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. Cocoa Wants To Be Educated, LiberalNurse Apparently Takes Offense at It

The social habits of anti-Clarkers are just fascinating.

DTH

[liberalnurse]

64. There lacks any substance which should indeed follow

open ended statements.....It's like falling off a cliff....into the air...empty.....


These are just bullet statements!

[janekat]

74. I don't think you'll ever be convinced. A case of Cognitive Dissonance

Cognitive Dissonance:

"if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning. Even Carl Rogers recognised this. Accommodation is more difficult than Assimilation, in Piaget's terms.

if learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are not likely to admit that the content of what has been learned is not valuable. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned"."

[Cocoa]

18. send it to Clark

he can create an "On the issues" page on his offical campaign website, so people don't have to rely on unoffical sources to find out where he stands.

[neverforget]

16. All right. A Du'er does something good: converts a Rep into a Dem

and this is all you have to say? How about good job?

[Cocoa]

25. oh, I didn't take this as something that literally happened

I took this as more of a parable to illustrate Clark's ability to attract republicans, thus his being the candidate to beat Bush.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. So In Other Words, You're Calling Janekat a Liar. Nice.

:eyes:

DTH

[Cocoa]

36. I wouldn't consider it a lie

just a story to illustrate one of his guy's strong points. Nothing really wrong with that if that's what it is, but just my reason for my not saying, or thinking, "good job."

[janekat]

42. Yup - I'm a liar, Wesley's a liar - guess I should be honored to be in

such good company...

[Cocoa]

45. I don't think either you or Clark is a liar

I think you are a Clark supporter and I think Clark is the most republican of the dem candidates.

[liberalnurse]

27. Probably because Clark is republican based.

.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. I Love It When They TRUMPET Their Ignorance

he's just the most republican dem running.

It's really incredibly amusing.

DTH

[Cocoa]

38. it's not ignorance

It's my opinion.

To refute my opinion, you'd have to find a candidate who is more republican than Clark.

That could make a good discussion.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. Your Mind Is Already Made Up

And it has been for weeks, it's crystal clear to anyone who's been following the candidate wars with any degree of attention.

I have better things to do with my time than waste any significant amount of it on you.

DTH

[Forkboy]

46. To be fair DTH

It seems your mind is made up as well.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. The HUGE Difference, Forkboy, Is That I'm Not Pretending Otherwise

I mean come on. I've admitted many times that I'm a Clark partisan. You'd have to be blind not to see it, especially given both my avatar and my sig!

DTH

[Cocoa]

48. It's not made up

I've been a Gephardt supporter, though I'm thinking more and more about Kucinich.

At this point, Clark is at the end of my list, so to be honest I don't think it's likely he's going to end up being my choice.

Looking ahead, I'm predicting, though I could be surprised, that Clark is going to continue to be as vague as he has been so far. If this turns out to be true, he has almost zero chance of getting my vote.

But like I said, he could surprise me, it's early still.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. Go Educate Yourself

There's plenty out there. Sorry, I'm not buying your "open" mind and your "please educate me" lines. I've seen more than enough of your negative posts on Clark to know better.

DTH

[Cocoa]

61. I actually am going to let Clark educate me

I ignored the "Clark on the issues" post above because it was unofficial.

Let him put it on his official website, then the other candidates can challenge him with it. Clark has disavowed some things that appeared on his many unofficial sites.

[janekat]

69. If you are a true Progressive I would think you'd be voting for

Kuchinich. The Greens even like him for crissakes. Howard Dean is NO Progressive.

http://www.az4kucinich.org/compare.htm

http://www.kucinichdeancompare.com/

Kucinich on the Issues
As President, I will lead the way in protecting our oceans, rivers and rural environments -- and I have been speaking out on these issues across America. I will also lead in fighting for clean, affordable and accessible drinking water --which is an emerging global concern. Over the years, I have worked hand-in-hand with the environmental movement on many battles, from thwarting a nuclear waste dump to boosting organics to demanding labels on genetically-engineered products.
Kucinich.us

Presidential Hopefuls Push Energy Alternatives, Pan Kyoto
Former Vermont governor Howard Dean has sided most closely with the Bush administration, endorsing the National Governors Association policy, which opposed the Kyoto Protocol.
Inter Press Service / CommonDreams.org 06/10/03

[Cocoa]

72. who said I was a true progressive?

or any kind of progressive?

Who said I didn't like Kucinich?

Who said I like Dean, or that Dean was a progressive?

In other words, what are you talking about?

[SWPAdem]

52. a candidate more Regug than Clark is Bush

n/t

[Dookus]

43. but... but...

how do you reconcile that with the fact that he's one of the most liberal candidates running?

[KittyWampus]

5. Brilliant! Did Same With My Dad

:)

[HootieMcBoob]

7. Nice Job

Remember Reagan Democrats? Now it's gonna be Clark Republicans. He'll be able to use his upcoming landslide as a mandate to work toward a truly liberal progressive country. It's gonna happen!

[janekat]

11. Except he's pretty liberal - wants to cut defense, Univ of Mich Affirmativ

Action case. Who else can get away with all that...

[janekat]

13. Wow - even Colin Quinn was ripping on Bush. EVERYONE'S po'd now

n/t

[w4rma]

15. Awesome! (n/t)

[TennesseeWalker]

20. A LOT of Republicans will vote for Clark.

Enough for us to win. :)

[janekat]

51. The problem is getting him past the primaries. He may not be able

to overtake Dean. The Primary voters are VERY different from the General election. THAT's what worries me.

I very strongly feel that Dean does NOT have a good chance to win the general election. Rove & Co. will just rip him to shreds.

Most of the professional campaign people I talk to say the same thing. I don't really mind Dean that much - in fact believe it or not I had really liked him - he used to be my #1. He is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. When he moves WAY to the center there is going to be a lot of VERY upset people.


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030803/nysu013a_3.html
"But some Republicans are so sure that a Dean nomination would spell a second term for President George W. Bush that they're "supporting" Dean's campaign. Tom Bevan, a 38-year-old former advertising executive from Chicago with a conservative bent wrote a $25 check to Dean last week after seeing him surge. "The further left he goes and the Democrats go, the better for my man Bush," Bevan says. "Some of the more centrist candidates would present more of a challenge to a Republican."

[liberalnurse]

26. I'm sure that wasn't so very difficult.

Republicans know Clark voted republican most of his adult life.

[IranianDemocrat]

28. No evidence! No reason! No doubt!

Just make some shit up and post it on the board.

[Forkboy]

40. Dont be so hard on yourself.

[IranianDemocrat]

70. lol

I gotta admit that got a smile out of me.

[liberalnurse]

47. It is so very true......

He is still is not even registered as a democrat!

he voted for Nixon, Reagan and H.W*bush. He gave a gleeful speech in may 2001 at the Arkansas Republican Convention...We all saw the home video....

Lets be honest here. Face the facts......Get you head out of the sand!


Clark seems pleasent enought but we are talking Democratic Presidential Candidate...Not some Jessie Ventura Independent!

[SWPAdem]

57. What would your response be

if I told you to get "your head out of the sand"? Would you think that I was implying that you were incapable of making your own decisions?

[liberalnurse]

71. No, in fact it refers to folks

who are not looking at the big picture. Clark has not identified with detail and clarity, his stance on many issues. He has only offered vague "cheerleading" statements typical of campaign rhetoric.

He has share he is working on his issues platform but it remains to be see as of yet.

I sense many Clark supporters are seeing the "John Wayne" in Clark, the General ....who has only verbally stated he is a democrat....

We all need more facts and clarity on Clarks positions before we drink his kool-aide.

[SWPAdem]

78. In other words, you know what is good for me?

I couldn't possibly have the capability to research and make my own decisions? I'm not smart enough, old enough, Democratic enough...which is it?

[janekat]

62. He did NOT vote for HW Bush - he voted for Clinton.

To be honest - I could care less WHO he's voted for as long as his stance on the issues is good. The environment is very important to me and Dean's record is TERRIBLE. I don't know whose worse Dubya or Howard.

I live near the Gulf of Mexico and don't want to see offshore oil drilling down here. Congress keeps trying to pass it and Bush actually prevented it (to help Jebbie win the Governorship).

Howard Dean has never said "No" to a developer in his life. He is against the Kyoto Treaty. I also have a very hard time with his support the death penalty AND his attitude on gun laws. I can't see that he is going to be very popular with women voters.

[bhunt70]

80. he also voted for

Clinton and Gore, so your point is?

[janekat]

55. The last time he voted for a Republican was 18 years ago (Reagan)

He voted for Clinton and Gore.

[liberalnurse]

58. Thats only 11 years ago if he voted for Clinton

in 1992. That is a big if too.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. So He's Telling the Truth About Reagan, But Lying About Clinton?

Even though Clinton was his friend and a home-stater, you don't think he voted for him.

You've just crossed the threshold into absurdity. See ya.

<PLONK>

DTH

[liberalnurse]

65. Did you forget.....

Clinton ran for 2 terms.....Who did Clark vote for in 1992?....*bush.

[janekat]

66. I just wonder if some of these people have ever read anything about

any of the candidates. I seem to know much more about Dean than THEY do. I honestly think all they like is his personality. Most don't even know his stance on the issues or about his record in Vermont. If they did - they'd all go running to Kuchinich.

[Forkboy]

75. I am a Kucinich supporter

so you constantly bringing up Dean as a defense for Clark doesn't really impress me.

[janekat]

87. Well then I have a new respect for you.

You may actually be an informed voter. I actually wish that more Dean supporters would go for Kuchinich. He is honest and has REAL values that he is not going to back down from. It actually annoys me when a lot of people who should be Kuchinich voters go for a lot of glitz, smoke and mirrors.

[Forkboy]

90. "...go for a lot of glitz, smoke and mirrors."

Then you should be the first to understand why some people feel that way about Clark supporters as well.

[Donna Zen]

63. That's why you need night-vision goggles

Wes Clark from tomorrow's speech to military reporters and editors:

"This administration is trying to do something that ought to be politically impossible to do in a democracy, and that is to govern against the will of the majority," he said. "That requires twisted facts, silence, secrecy, and very poor lighting. That's why you need night-vision goggles to see what's going on over there."

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6919170.htm

"...very poor lighting..."Hahhahhha. I miss digitalclark. I really, really, want to see this one.

[janekat]

81. Isn't it a shame that we had a nice positive thread going and then

the Dean bashers had to come along. Even the news that Bush lost a vote gave them no pause for joy. Very negative people. I'm not saying that about ALL of them I've run across a few nice ones. It really seems to be pretty widespread.

I don't know if the candidates anger and negativity rubs off on them or if they just happen to be negative people who are attracted to the negativity.

It's not just the Clark people who get a hard time. Workers in the other campaigns complain about how obnoxious they are - they have a reputation for bean nasty - pulling dirty tricks. It really gives their candidate a bad name. It doesn't help their cause at all.

Maybe we should call them "deepers"

[Forkboy]

85. it's a shame that you think all the negativity

is A :only from Dean supporters,and B :that Dean supporters have a lock on said negativity.

You Clark supporters are no basket of festivity either you know.

[janekat]

88. We're usually pretty postive UNTIL we're attacked

n/t

[Wonk]

86. Would've been a positive thread if you'd convinced her to vote Dem in the

Nov '04 election. As it was (assuming it wasn't a parable) your story is about convincing a Repub to freep the primaries. Way to go :eyes:

I'm going to quote now from your post before you edit it:

"Isn't it a shame that we had a nice positive thread going and then the Dean bashers had to come along."

Who was 'Dean bashing' in this thread? YOU WERE.

I think someone might be up past their bedtime... Try again tomorrow.

[janekat]

89. eeeek - You're probably right about that - LOL!

n/t

[janekat]

91. I think as long as we have Clark, Kerry, Gep, Edwards or Graham - she

would go for them. Just can't see her voting for Dean. Truthfully - I can't see too many people over the age of about 40 voting for him. It's not really even his views. I can't quite put my finger on why. Just can't see a serious "adult" voting for him.