Last week I mentioned Bob Graham. any takers?

[PretzelWarrior]

Would that be more of the same as what we've got right now? If you truly believe anyone but Bush is better, could you imagine him with Wesley Clark getting in there and straightening out some of the worldwide mess BUshco has made?

Would you rather a guy like Dean makes it through nomination and gets clipped by Bush because Bush carries FLorida, Texas and all the battleground states, or take a chance on people being tired of the Bush message and confusion and get a moderate in there?

I absolutely agree with some who've said these moderate candidates may not be all that bad of a choice because Bush may be masquerading as a moderate in slogans and campaign, but he is certainly no moderate.

[ewagner]

1. I'm in

...think I said so last week.

[Eloriel]

2. What a weak sales pitch

Not to mention predicated on utterly unfounded and IMO specious speculation:
Would you rather a guy like Dean makes it through nomination and gets clipped by Bush because Bush carries FLorida, Texas and all the battleground states, or take a chance on people being tired of the Bush message and confusion and get a moderate in there?


Edit: and an untruth (Dean isn't a moderate).

Has Graham had 3200 and 2000 people turn out in Austin and Dallas, respectively, to see him speak and cheer him on in the last month?

Those who think Dean can't win are either not informing themselves adequately, OR are being disingenuous.

Eloriel

[PretzelWarrior]

5. I admit it is a weak sales pitch because I'm not a supporter of him

but since he started to at least make statements that sounded more along the lines of someone who will not timidly sit out of any conflicts with Bush, I decided to give him a second glance.

I take your point on Dean being a moderate. I hadn't really thought about that in exactly that way, and I'm sure examining the record would show him to be conservative on some issues--liberal on others with a good average for him.

Believe me, right now Dean sounds too good to be true so I'm trying to get myself informed enough on others that I won't be completely appalled if someone other than Kerry or Dean makes it through.

[w4rma]

34. Massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43435&mesg_id=43435&page=

Gov. Dean's position on free trade (pro-fair trade)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

[PretzelWarrior]

36. thanks. I will check those out. I really do want to look at their

positions in detail.

[Northwind]

40. Right on!

Bush will not be getting Texas!!!!

[cjbuchanan]

3. I must disagree with some of your statement

I do not think a Dean nomination will cause us to lose all (or even any) the battleground states. I think Dean (or Graham) can beat Bush. Remember, it is a long way till next November.

As far as Florida, recent polling showed Graham losing to Bush. I don't put much stock in such polling, but I just wanted to put that out there. To be fair, it showed Bush winning Florida no matter who got the nomination.

We can win; we just have to work together once a nominee is selected.

One final thing, no matter what the press and the Republicans want to say, Dean is a moderate

[PretzelWarrior]

7. Well, I'm pretty practical and so are Missourians..you might be right

re: battleground states. It really is tough to say how a funny lot from MIssouri or Iowa might vote in Bush vs. Dean. Pennsylvania, Michigan, WIsconsin, etc. might go toward Dean depending on how he does in putting out the credible foreign policy plans (which means in my mind naming some of his foreign policy team EARLY during campaigning) as well as putting out a sound economic plan.

What battleground states exist south of Missouri? Are all definite republican? NOt talking desert southwest. FLorida one of the only ones?

[cjbuchanan]

10. I think

New Mexico and Arizona are considered battleground. The difference in 2000 was very small and the Latino community has grown in the last 4 years.

[lkinsale]

15. Poll in perspective

That poll was taken in early May, at the height of Bush's war triumph. It might look considerably different now.

[JustJoe]

4. I hadnt seen much of Graham till

Sunday. I was impressed, He had a quiet toughness
& determination about him. I'm going for Dean at this
point, and wonder if Graham would be a good Dean VP.
One guy a lot of folks around here like that I dont
get is General Clark. I dont think he'd have as
much support if he wasnt an anti-war (at least this war)
ex-military man. He just dont do nothin for me. He seems
mild, too relaxed. I admit I have visceral reactions.
I heard Dean give a short interview with Warren Olney
here in LA, and I went, "Huh, this guy has got something.
This guy coiuld be the real thing." I also try to imagine
whether the average boobs in the middle 20% would go for
a guy. Of the top tier, I cant see Edwards or Kucinich
capturing those swing boobs, based on, unfortunately
but true, appearance. Graham might be a little over the
hill for Pres but good VP stuff. Kerry I go back & forth
on more than any candidate, one day he seems like a
pompous machine, others he comes down to earth & I see
his strength & smarts. Clark I dont get.

[bryant69]

6. a Moderate?

I do think that President Bush will have a harder time this time campaigning as a moderate--granted he won't have any challenger in the primary to move him to the right--but he's going to have a harder time obsuficating his loyalty to the hard right wing.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

8. No takers over here. He is goofier then Bush

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:OG_MLsxkdH4J:www.tayyar.org/files/revuedepresse/GB/NewYorkTimes_Graham.htm+Focus+on+Iran+and+Syria,+Not+Iraq,+Senator+Graham+Says+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Focus on Iran and Syria, Not Iraq, Graham Says

These interviews are the seventh and eighth of a series in which national and world figures reflect on the terrorist attacks and their effect on a year of public life and policy.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 9 - Senator Bob Graham, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, calls the Bush administration's focus on Iraq a distraction from the campaign against terrorism and lists Syria and Iran as countries that should be the first targets of any aggressive effort against state sponsors of terrorist activity.

In an interview reflecting on Sept. 11 and its consequences, Mr. Graham, a Florida Democrat, also said he feared that the United States was becoming "bogged down" in an unproductive manhunt in Afghanistan and that the nation needed an "aggressive war plan" to strike at terrorist organizations.

"Victory is going to be won on the offensive, going to where the terrorists are and aggressively taking them on,"Mr. Graham said. The senator said Iraq should not be the priority, given President Bush's own criteria: countries that were accomplices in the Sept. 11 attacks or that provided a sanctuary for terrorist groups.

"By those two standards, Iraq does not make it very high on the list of a terrorist state," Mr. Graham said.

He said the antiterrorism effort should focus on countries that had a significant Qaeda presence or terrorist training camps. "Those are primarily in Syria, in the Syrian-controlled areas of Lebanon and in Iran," the senator said.

more

[PretzelWarrior]

9. funny thing is...I think his statements make sense.

I really believe Iran and Syria DO pose more of a threat for state sponsored terrorism. Of course, I'd actually put Saudi Arabia and Yemen at the top of that list. (IF we're assuming US is not under consideration as a state sponsoring terrorsim in this context)

[NNN0LHI]

16. What is even funnier is that there would be no terrorists coming here...

...if we were not going over there creating them by supporting dictatorial regimes like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, and many others. Unless you actually believe they hate us for our freedoms as Chimpy suggests. Ask yourself this question. What would make someone hate us more they care for themselves to the point they would commit suicide attacks against us? You think our freedoms do that to them?

Don

[PretzelWarrior]

18. you're preaching to the choir.

but I don't think Graham necessarily thinks we should send in armored divisions to deal with the real threat of terrorism from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria, etc.

Of course I know some of the reasons they are so hateful. I will also say they are separate from the traditional "freedom fighter" terrorists who want something better. Many of them really are indoctrinated by extremist clerics and charismatic leaders. They blow themselves up. That is as radical as you can get.

I think we have to address this nation's foreign policy and the devastation it causes, and I think we need to address the religious extremism creating the seeds of terror.

[NNN0LHI]

20. Whos religious extremism. Ours?

When we quit supporting the kinds of thugs that we do on a daily basis, and stealing their national wealth by keeping a few very of these scumbags wealthy and leaving the rest of the population in these countries dirt poor so we can have cheap oil their will be no takers for the type of religious extremism that we are currently breeding.

Don

[NNN0LHI]

21. Whos religious extremism? Ours?

When we quit supporting the kinds of thugs that we do on a daily basis, and stealing their national wealth by keeping a few very of these scumbags wealthy and leaving the rest of the population in these countries dirt poor so we can have cheap oil their will be no takers for the type of religious extremism that we are currently breeding.

Don

[PretzelWarrior]

22. yeah. I know that. but even Dean getting in the WH won't change that

dramatically. You'd be kidding yourself if you believe so. It will take constant and near universal support from American people to get the US out of these corrupt regimes. Only problem is--no one wants to cut back on use of their precious oil.

[PretzelWarrior]

23. yeah. I know that. but even Dean getting in the WH won't change that

dramatically. You'd be kidding yourself if you believe so. It will take constant and near universal support from American people to get the US out of these corrupt regimes. Only problem is--no one wants to cut back on use of their precious oil.

[dansolo]

30. The real Axis of Evil

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Kuwait

[Perky]

11. Graham-Richardson

A Bob Graham at the head of the ticket wins Florida
A hispanic on the ticket puts texas in play...or at least makes Bush have to spend alot of time at Home. I think that locks the ELectoral math.

I think Richardsopn is the ideal runningmate Great credentials. Sitting Governor, Former Ambassador...Former Cabinet Secretary, former Congressman. Elequent Speaker...Cerebral....but way overweight.

[Perky]

12. Graham-Richardson

A Bob Graham at the head of the ticket wins Florida
A hispanic on the ticket puts Texas in play...or at least makes Bush have to spend alot of time at Home. I think that locks the Electoral math.

I think Richardson is the ideal runningmate Great credentials. Sitting Governor, Former Ambassador...Former Cabinet Secretary, former Congressman. Elequent Speaker...Cerebral....but way overweight.

[lkinsale]

13. I'm a taker.

Silly to claim he's "goofier than Bush." He does think we should address Syria, where they have "conventions of terrorists" as some pundit put it.

I wrote a long post about Graham in an earlier thread here so I won't repeat myself.

I'm in agreement on Dean's ultimate chances against Bush. I don't think they are that good. I would much rather see a guy like Graham who has the executive experience and sensible stances on security go up against the Pugs. I realize this isn't a popular view on DU, but I truly believe, particularly NOW, that swing voters will be desperate for a moderate Dem who looks like he has a real clue about security.

I also think Graham appeals deeply to rural Southern ex-Dems. He polled as the most popular candidate among Hispanics. I think he can tap into areas that have some real potential, without losing the base.

[Perky]

14. Unfortunately I thinky you are correct

I do no think Dean is electavle. My problem with Grahma as that wile probably and effective president, he does not seem to have the charisma necessary to excite the base.

Graham and a woman might well work.. But HRC is not the woman.

[PretzelWarrior]

17. the thing is...we have the math to get it done against Bush...

we have a nice array of candidates (and some who haven't entered the fray yet) that could produce a winning ticket.

we just need to be really disciplined in our support of whoever it is. I hope people do realize that elections are political. They aren't a vote for "If you could have any wish in the world..." like some kind of parlor game. The decision is a very important one that has to use some calculus of probabilities based on shifting issues.

I ultimately think we need part of the ticket from the south and the candidate more than likely will succeed if he has executive experience.

I just like Graham's good combo of foreign policy experience, southern background, governor background, senate background....just my take.

[lkinsale]

19. Interesting and an ongoing question

People say often that Graham has no charisma. I guess I must be odd, cause I find him the most personally appealing of all the candidates when I've seen him on TV. He has a warmth and soft-spoken grandfatherly astuteness that I think would stand up quite well to Bush's hollow vanity. To me, Graham just oozes "integrity." He doesn't have to claim it for himself, you just see it in him.

I think the deal with Graham is, you either like the fiery Dean type or you prefer someone who seems like they handle stress calmly. Maybe it's just personal preference. A lot of voting is.

My negative reaction to Dean came directly from watching the SC debates, when I had no opinions on any of them. I just really did not like Dean's red face and body language, I felt he appeared immature and unable to handle a tough situation. (NOTE: this is my considered opinion, it is NOT an attack.) I called the New Mexico State Dems and got into a convo over something else with the person who answered the phone, and Dean's name came up. Spontaneously, she said, "I don't like him. He has too much of a temper." So I'm not the only one who has come away with this negative impression.

If he becomes the nominee, I will certainly support him. But I sure hope he takes some of that money he's collecting and gets lessons in handling stress.

It may be that Graham's lack of "exciting the base" will cost him the nomination. Which I think is too bad, because I think he's got everything it takes in the wider world to beat Bush.

[GBD4]

24. well I certainly am!

Gep said in his kickoff speech "experience matters" well it's Sen. Graham who has the experience! Americans want a candidate with executive (Governor) experience and Graham can also win swing states in the South, the ones Clinton carried but Gore didn't. He will win over voters with fiscal conservatism and social liberalism with an overall aim of winning back the trust of Americans in their government. He is for government openness and for common sense approaches. Bush said he'd bring all of us together, and he never did. Graham wants to bring America together and he has said that throughout the campaign. If Florida Republicans vote for him (and in large numbers!), I am confident swing voters nationwide will find appeal in his message.

[LondonReign2]

25. As VP

Many believe he is actually running for VP, and I think in that position he would make a great candidate. Here's a winning ticket:

Dean --President
Graham -- VP. Helps carry Florida, adds weight to Foreign Policy based on his Senate committeeship

And, just like Bush announced ahead of the election that Powell would be his Sec of State, Dean announces:

Wesley Clark -- Sec of Defense. 'Nuff said
Richardson -- Sec of State. So masterful Shrubbies had to call him back in on NK. Helps with Latino vote. Secures potential battleground state of NM.

On Edit: John Edwards -- Attny Gen.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. yeah. I've said that before too.

either Kerry and Graham or Dean and Graham would catch people's attention. I just think he makes a good case for himself as the patriarch who can evenly handle the crises of a presidency.

[seafan]

26. Bob Graham can certainly be MY president!

He is, without any doubt for me, the BEST chance this country has in rehabilitating herself, both in our own citizens' eyes and in those of the world. Senator Graham's depth and breadth of experience and natural ability to lead confirm itself continually.

His integrity and concern for Floridians put him into office in 1966 and he is still at it. Two terms as Governor in one of the largest, socially and politically diverse states and now he's serving in his third term as our U.S. Senator; he now says he is so concerned about George W. Bush's disastrous policies that he is determined to clean up this debacle by serving as our next President. This man can do it. Unequivocally.

Finally the media are starting to listen to what he is saying, and has been saying for many months, even years. He knows the risks we face with undaunted threats of terrorism. He's fighting for port security. He first became aware of the serious problems with unchecked container cargo when he worked at the port of Tampa on the docks, during one of his workdays. He listened to what the dock workers were concerned about. And he issued legislation to tighten security. This was 1997.

He looks out for the Everglades, older folks, children, young families, health issues, women's concerns, our water quality, working people, national security, our educational system, and if you are ever introduced to him by name, don't be surprised if he can recall it later. You might just be noted in his logbook.

This man is a statesman.

While Bush and his lackeys are now under investigation, Senator Graham is looming ever larger on the radar. He's fighting for us, people.

We need to fight for him.

[Kahuna]

28. Graham and Clark are the silver bullet...

I've long advocated Graham/Clark or Clark/Graham. Graham is hardly a repuke-lite. So stop saying that. :o

[dansolo]

29. I like a Dean/Graham ticket

n/t

[seafan]

31. Graham-Richardson deserves serious consideration.

But I'm sure Bob has some serious possibilities of his own in mind for a partner. This is getting VERY INTERESTING!

It's difficult to be patient when primal screams aimed at Bu$hCo continue to smoulder in my gut. What Bush lays to waste, may he never escape.

[MaverickX]

32. What Dean doesn't have..

Is national security, intelligence, or foreign policy experience. The question is will these things be issues in 2004?

[lkinsale]

33. Good point

I still like Graham's rationale for opposing the war (that it was a pointless diversion from the true threat of al-Queda) better than Dean's. I think it makes more sense and will make more sense to the electorate at large.

And you bet it will be an issue in 2004. I can't see any scenario in which it won't be as important or more important.

Click to subscribe to Graham04

[PretzelWarrior]

35. thanks for the link. Yes, I've been using same argument about Iraq

namely, it is clear the US should have focused attention on terrorist breeding grounds Pakistan and Saudi Arabia rather than launching attack on Iraq because it was an easy target.

I think Graham should be given more time on the air to make his points. He has definitely not been given fair opportunity to get out there like Dean and Kerry.

[PretzelWarrior]

37. any more Graham thoughts out there? I don't want to reduce field

just yet. I think he is one of the upper tier candidates even though his very early ratings have not been really high. Thoughts about his chances once he gets more well known in Iowa, NH, etc?

[madfloridian]

42. I think Graham will come through near the top.

He is someone respected, intelligent, but not exciting. However, he will come out with what he perceives to be the truth. He is a good guy with a long history of service.

I think a lot of people are starting to get some good ideas about him.

We differ with him on some issues, but usually after he clarifies we aren't too far apart on things.

We are supporting Dean right now, but there are others we like....Graham is one of them.

[PretzelWarrior]

43. you would be one of the experts to listen to

you've seen what he's been up to down in Florida for some time. It just sort of clicked with me that I felt he was different than some I cannot deal with as serious candidates like Lieberman and Gephardt.

I am looking forward to the fall when things really heat up and hopefully we get some of these guys visiting out in Oregon.

[neuvocat]

38. Graham seems ok.

I'm still gonna wait before I make up my mind.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. Graham is the guy who says Bush isn't Capitalist enough right?

Is he going to get rid of all those tedious regulations our poor corporations have to follow?

What does Graham the Capitalist think about Communist China? Business opportunity yes? Get those workers cheap, beat 'em if they complain?

[MaverickX]

41. when did Graham say that..

Bush was too socialist?