Stupid RW talking point: Hitler was a socialist

[ButterflyBlood]

Anyone get annoyed by this? I've been having people say it rather frequently recentely for some reason. The whole argument basically boils down to that the full name of the Nazis was the National Socialist Workers Party. Therefore Hitler was a socialist, and was thus really a left winger.

My reply has been to say by that logic North Korea must be a democracy, as the official name is the Democratic Republic of Korea.

Anyone got more info on Hitler's UnSocialist policies?

[mcctatas]

1. Hitler was a socialist in the same way that W is a

compassionate conservative (name only). Hitler was a fascist plain and simple.

[jurassicpork]

9. Look up the definition for fascist...

...and it sounds eerily like the definition of the latter-day republican party:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Other definitions also include include collusion with big business.

Maybe someone should buy Dick Cheney a Webster's and highlight that passage.

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

[enid602]

21. No

Hitler was a socialist in the same way that Bush is a Christian. Both rulers took advantage of popular contemporary movements to use to their own advantage.

[cascadiance]

2. And China must be Capitalist...

because they do big business with their future big company over there "capitalist" company Wal-Mart:

[Erika]

7. China has become a corporatist country

much in alignment with the Bushbots.

[Erika]

3. Hitler used the right wing Christians horribly

He's very close to the likes of Robertson. He hated gays and tortured and killed them. He hated non-Christians and did the same thing.

[mcctatas]

12. He wasn't to fond of Christians either...

He WAS the state religion, a cult of personality revolving around an evil man with beady little eyes and a drug problem. Thank goodness that would never happen now. :sarcasm: :puke:

[Maple]

22. Hitler was devout

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm


“I am completely convinced that I am acting as the agent of God. I am now a Catholic and will always remain so.”

— Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf


"Today Christians stand at the head of the nation... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian Spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developements in literature, in the theatre, and in the press- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past few years."

From The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1, pg. 871-872
(London, Oxford University Press, 1942.)

[mcctatas]

23. He persecuted Catholic nuns and priests sending some to concentration

camps: (From "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer)
In Germany they adopted the policy of “gradual encroachment”, which meant that they pretended to be good friends of the Churches at first, then gradually deprived them of all opportunity to affect public life; persecuted those Christians and priests who criticized the Nazi regime and sent many of them to prisons or concentration camps.
Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise).
A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
<snip>
Gee, another leader pandering to religion just to get elected and then doing whatever the hell he wanted anyway!

[Maple]

24. Hitler was a devout Christian

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." Adolph Hitler, My New World Order, Proclamation to the German Nation at Berlin, February 1, 1933

If he sent anyone to concentration camps, it was because they opposed him...not because of religion.

[mcctatas]

25. You say devout Christian, I say not so much....

Perhaps he was a devout Christian in theory, but in his treatment of Christians, again, not so much. Try information later than 1933, but we will just have to agree to disagree.

Peace,
Mcctatas

[Maple]

26. Say what you like

History has already spoken

[mcctatas]

27. See...

We agree on something ;)

[Maple]

30. I'm not sure what

we supposedly agree on, but I'm almighty tired of so-called Christians palming their disasters off as atheists.

Don't blame atheists for 'christian sinners'. It isn't our fault or our problem.

[Maru Kitteh]

88. I didn't see the poster blaming atheists for anything - that would be YOUR

agenda not the poster's, and so you put words in her/his mouth.

You provide "proof" of Hitlers so called devotion by providing snippets from speeches. I could do the very same thing to "prove" that George W. Bush is a compassionate man who really cares about working people, but you see his actions show us a different truth. Same way with Hitler. See?


Saying that Hitler was not devout and did not practice Christianity but instead used it for gain is NOT the same thing as saying he was an atheist or blaming any atheists for anything at all.

Wow, some atheists are SOOooooo touchy. :eyes:

[Rich Hunt]

37. you are correct

Later statements of Hitler show him denouncing Christianity.

[Maple]

43. No they don't

[DivinBreuvage]

89. Your statement is incorrect. Read the "Table Talk".

Hitler certainly paid lip service to Christianity early in his career, when he was working first to gain power then to solidify it. His comments attesting to devout Catholicism or belief in Christianity must be viewed in the same light as other assertions from that period such as his support for socialism or his claim that he did not want war. It was all claptrap designed for public consumption.

You seem to have jumped the gun in post #30 on accusing other posters of calling him an atheist. I find that part of the problem in discussing Hitler's religion (and the subject keeps coming up here on DU) is that too many people seem unable or unwilling to treat the question with the necessary subtlety of thought; particularly in the "atheist" camp, some of whom appear to believe that there are only two possible poles of thought: either Hitler was a devout Christian or he was an atheist.

The truth of the matter is that Hitler was somewhere in-between. Certainly one cannot strongly contend that he was an atheist; nor is there any meaningful basis on which to conclude that he was a Christian -- his intended approach toward Christian churches is enough to expose the fallacy of that assertion. It is, however, almost certain that he did believe in some higher force or power, though he appears to have thought of it more in terms of destiny, fate, or some other impersonal force rather than an anthropomorphic god.

If you are interested in a more accurate portrait of what he really believed, I would point you to the lengthy monologues he delivered late in his career to his inner circle, which were recorded "for posterity" by Martin Bormann. In them you can note how many times Hitler compares Christianity to a disease, which in itself is very meaningful to those who know what significance the theme of disease had to his mind.

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together...."

"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>."

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity."

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself...."

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity...."

"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity...."

"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse...."

"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....

"Christianity <is> the liar...."

"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer...."

"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery...."

"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."

[Prism]

32. Spooky

It's like a diorama of a parallel argument within the argument. Like concentric circles of irony.

Hitler wasn't a Socialist. He took advantage of the movements of his day to throw the thinnest patina of digestible ideology on his plans.

Neither was he a Christian. He made that claim to polish his evil with a lacquer of piety.

Just as, in truth, he was a fascist in socialist's clothing, so he was a pagan in Christian robes. (much of his fascination with aryanism, magic, etc. hearkened to pre-Christian ideas of various frankish-germanic tribes).

I don't think blaming any present day ideology or religion for Hitler is appropriate. I think we can all agree he was a force of hell unto himself, no mainstream belief system required.

[Maple]

33. Sorry, but he was a Christian

Not a pagan, not an atheist, not a Zoroastrian, not an alien...christian.

No shifting of the blame to someone else...not this time. No. Sorry.

[Prism]

34. Uhm, no.

He could paste a cardboard paper towel tube to his forehead and call himself a unicorn - it doesn't make it so.

Hitler claimed to be an awful lot of things. In the end, he was simply a genocidal maniac.

This is what the original poster was talking about. How people try to label Hitler something in order to sully it. If it's not ok to do with Socialism, it's not ok to do with Christianity.

Many of Hitler's beliefs were paganistic in nature, but no way in hell I'd call him a Pagan, and certainly not in any way that relates to the Pagans who exist today. He was, at base, an opportunist who borrowed heavily from a variety of religions, political ideologies, and philosophies to justify and lend credibility to his maniacal schemes.

It's poor form to use Hitler to grind a contemporary axe.

[Maple]

36. Umm yes

Hitler was a christian. Take responsibility for your own and stop trying to palm him off on everyone else.

[Prism]

38. My own?

Uh, for a start, I'm not Christian.

The difference between you and I is that I palm Hitler off on no one. Hitler was one of those unique personas in history that's so horrid, so purely evil, you can't really figure out where the heck he went wrong.

You're the one assigning labels to him in order to grind the ideological axe of your choosing.

Which, IMHO, is wrong.

[Maple]

40. Hitler was a christian

plain and simple. Not an atheist.

The record is plain. Stop trying to palm him off on everyone else.

[teknomanzer]

62. You are clearly ignorant on this matter...

DO MORE RESEARCH! You will find out that Nazism was originally supported by an occultist group called the Thule society. Check out some of the Nazi pageantry it was all based on cultish Tuetonic rivivalism. Even to call Nazis pagans is to make a gross error. Nazi mythologies were based on the occult belief in some mythical aryan race that came from the northern homeland of Thule. They believed that the swastika was the symbol of the aryan race. Before the war Hitler sent teams of archeologists to uncover proof of this insane belief.

Hitler was not a christian. He may have said so to dupe the public. In truth he was an occultist. And he wanted to the people the worship him not God.

[BiggJawn]

66. "Oh, he wasn't a REAL Christian"...

"Hitler was not a christian. He may have said so to dupe the public"

Some people have a REAL problem acknowledging that they could have monsters in their religion, don't they?

Eric Rudolph?
David Koresh?
Timmy McVeigh?
Hitler?
Why, I'll even venture that Il Duce was Catholic.

[teknomanzer]

69. I'm not a christian so I don't care either way...

I know there are many christians in history who were bloodthirsty beasts. Many have been killed by the christian faithful from the killing of the scholar Hypatia, the stamping out of "heretics", Charlemagne's conversion of the Saxons, to the inquisition and witch trials. I also know that the Catholic church looked the other way during the holocaust.

I also know Hitler was not a christian. He thought of christianity the same way Nietzsche thought of it. It was a slave religion. Hitler rolled up Nietzsche's philosophy of the ubermensch with the occult views of the aryan master race extolled by the likes of Goerg Lanz von Lieberfels and Guido von List.

Facts are facts... Hitler pandered to christianity knowing full well that the majority of Germans were not ready to move along to his Nazi occultist views.

The Swastika as the symbol of Nazi Germany is ITSELF proof of Nazi occult begginings. You should also investigate Himler's castle in Wewelsburg the occult center for the SS knighthood. Hitlers ultimate goal was to sweep out christianity and replace it with a cult of Teutonic neo-paganism.

Perhaps you are not aware of this simply because you take things on first impressions. DO SOME RESEARCH!

[BiggJawn]

72. We must have looked in different places.

Because MY research says he was raised christian, went to church, hammered out deals with the Pope and NEVER did he publically renounce his Christianity.

Now, maybe you have some "secret Hitler Diaries" or something, but I'll stand by MY research (which DOES goe deeper than "first impressions", Thenk Yew Veddy Much).

I won't argue with you about Himmler's Thule-like SS cult. I've read the accounts.

But Hitler isn't Himmler, now, is he?

[teknomanzer]

76. Explain the use of the swastika...

Do you even know where it came from? Hitler himself approved of its use. It has even been said he designed the Reich's flag. If Hitler was such a devout christian then why use a clearly non-christian symbol for the third reich. Why not just use some version of the German imperial flag if he was simply a nationalist christian?

And no Hitler was not Himmler, but they were birds of the same flock. Very little went on without the Fuhrer's approval.

[DivinBreuvage]

97. You don't need secret diaries... research his relationship

with the German churches AFTER he came to power. Hitler had no love or respect for Christianity despite his early lip-service statements; unless, of course, you believe that he was a man of peace forced into war by International Jewry (because he made that claim too) and that he was a Bolshevist (because he hammered out deals with Stalin).

He wasn't an atheist, but he wasn't a Christian either. He did believe in something, but it was more along the lines of some amalgamation of social-darwinism, world-historicism, and fate.

You say that "Some people have a REAL problem acknowledging that they could have monsters in their religion, don't they?". This is certainly true, and plenty of "devout" Christian monsters can be named. You did name some. But in light of your posts on this subject here and on past threads, it appears that you yourself have just as deep an emotional or psychological need to convince yourself that Hitler was a Sunday-go-to-meeting Jesus freak. This is not meant to be a put-down or an insult; I think you're one of the more intelligent posters here. It is simply an observation.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. Oh, brother! That's a mighty big shovel you're using.

[Rich Hunt]

39. who are you talking to?

Hitler has indicated this in a speech at Nuremberg in September, 1935. "Christianity," he said, "succeeded for a time in uniting the old Teutonic tribes, but the Reformation destroyed this unity. Germany is now a united nation. National Socialism has succeeded where Christianity failed." And Heiden has quoted Hitler's remark, "We do not want any other God than Germany itself." This is a vital point. Germany is Hitler's religion.

"The basis of much of the madness of Hitlerism was his incredibly severe and drastic desire to purge Germany of non-German elements, to create a hundred per cent Germany for one hundred per cent Germans only. He disliked bankers and department stores -- as Dorothy Thompson pointed out -- because they represented non-German, international, financial and commercial forces. He detested socialists and communists because they were affiliated with world groups aiming to internationalize labor. He loathed, above all, pacifists, because pacifists, opposing war, were internationalists.

Catholicism he considered a particularly dangerous competitive force, because it demands two allegiances of a man, and double allegiance was something Hitler could not countenance. Thus the campaign against the "black moles," as Nazis call priests. Several times German relations with the Vatican neared the breaking point. Protestantism was -- theoretically -- a simpler matter to deal with, because the Lutheran Church presumably was German and nationalist. Hitler thought that by the simple installation of an army chaplain, a ferocious Nazi named Mueller, as Reichbishop, he could "coördinate" the Evangelical Church in Germany, and turn it to his service. The idea of a united Protestant Church"


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/9587/attrelig.html

I like The Straight Dope, personally.

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-Nazi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

In other words, he was an opportunist. Like a lot of leaders.

[Maple]

41. Hitler was a christian

In his own words.

Stop blaming everyone else for him.

[Rich Hunt]

61. nice eloquent argument

Who do you think we're "blaming"?

Which Hitler are we talking about here? Because if you look at his writings and speeches, it sure looks as if he morphed over the years. He can be found making all sorts of negative statements about Christianity.

[teknomanzer]

70. This has been the only thing you have said...

this whole post... "stop blaming everyone else."

I'm begining to think you have your own axe to grind! If you have issues with christianity then get it out and move on! You haven't offered one substantive arguement against any of the others made on this post. You just keep repeating the same old tired line!

I think its clear... Hitler was a political opportunist, an occult Nationalist seeking the restore some fictional Teutonic order.

I'm not saying this because of a need to defend christianity, because I don't share in that faith. I'm saying it because it happens to be based on facts.

BTW Just because Hitler said he was a Christian does not make it so.

I can say I'm the King of Norway. I said it myself. It must be true. Therefore I am the king of Norway. From now on EVERYONE on this board must now refer to me as "Highness" or "Majesty" or "King of Norway" Next week I will say I'm King of the world. Then later I will announce that I am Emperor Of all existence.

[Prism]

42. Thank You

You made my point much better.

And - Teutonic! That was the word I was probing my mushy little mind for. "Frankish-german?!" I can't even blame this on pot or anything.

Maybe insomnia =)

[Maple]

44. Hitler was a christian

By his own words.

I know everyone would rather forget that...but that's what he was.

Stop blaming atheists and pagans for him.

[Prism]

45. I blame no one for Hitler

Maybe his parents, but even then, it's not like they were aiming to raise a lunatic.

Nowhere will you find me blaming atheists or pagans for him. In my original post, I said he held some paganistic beliefs. But he was not pagan in the modern or the ancient sense. I think his actual beliefs might be better termed "tribal mysticism." It was a really rather screwy collection of the supernatural, the bloody, and the flat out insane.

If you don't like Christianity, that's just fine. You're certainly entitled to. But calling him a Christian because you seem to dislike Christianity is a pretty low thing to do, IMO.

And since you're going to repeat yourself most likely, I'll just stop with this subthread here.

[Maple]

46. Hitler was a christian

and not pagan in any sense. And certainly not atheist.

Grocery store tabloids notwithstanding

[U4ikLefty]

51. Soon they will claim Bush is not a Christian.

n/t

[immoderate]

67. On the meaning of words...

`Don't stand chattering to yourself like that,' Humpty Dumpty said, looking at her for the first time, `but tell me your name and your business.'

`My name is Alice, but --'

`It's a stupid name enough!' Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. `What does it mean?'

`Must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.

`Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: `my name means the shape I am -- and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like yours, you might be any shape, almost.'

If you have been reading threads around here long enough you know that the term "Christian" has so many definitions as to be meaningless. A George Bush Christian is not anything like a DU Christian. And it goes beyond this board. I have found in talking to them that every Christian is unique, differing on at least some aspect of what they would claim is a common religion. Atheist also means something different to the DU Christians than it does to DU atheists, again as evidenced in threads. In short, most arguments are about what words mean, and this thread is a perfect example.

Hitler could be called a Christian or an atheist but not by any definition I would offer. socialist is another one. Freepers think Hillary Clinton and the New York Times are socialist.

I agree with the OP if the point is that people will make associations to discredit things they don't like. If they don't like the left they will point out that Hitler's party had the word socialist in it. If they dislike Christians or atheists they will tag Hitler with that.

Isn't it great that we still have Hitler to kick around (anymore)?

--IMM

[teknomanzer]

73. Surely you mock me...

and others who have done a little more investigating of the Nazi phenomenon than yourself. The only proof you offer for your arguement is that Hitler said this or he said that. But our evidence is much more clear, and compelling if you look at Nazi symbolism, pageantry, and the plans of his cronies for the 1000 year Reich.

"Grocery store tabloids notwithstanding," you say... indeed.

I'm going to say it as plainly as I can due to your insulting tone. You don't know shit.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. The symbolism and pageantry of the Nazi Party was engineered....

...primarily by Goebbels, and individual who knew exactly what he had to do to whip up public support for Hitler.

Hitler was a Christian, no matter how many times you claim he was not, and no matter how ugly you want to get defending your POV.

[teknomanzer]

98. Yes maybe I'm getting ugly about it...

But it is highly insulting to have ones arguements compared to "grocery store tabloid material." I don't know why all of you are so convinced that Hitler was a devout christian when all the obvious evidence is so contrary. Publicly Hitler had to appear as such for a time. But is is quite evident through some of his writings, beliefs, and associations that he had the same regard for christianity as did Nietzche. How can you claim that the LEADER of a group of occultist loons was anything but one himself. His number 2 man Himmler was constructing an occult center for the SS in Wewelsburg... do you think Hitler was ignorant of this. Do you honestly think he did not share in the beliefs held by top party members, and by the Thule society? Where do you think all this Master race shit came from? Why use the swastika as the Reich's symbol? Why was the Ananerbe sent around the world looking for proof of the Aryan race? Why would Hitler be so fond of Georg Lanz and Guido von List? WHY? Why? why?

Any suggestion that none of the above matters would indicate that there was so much was going on in the Third Reich that Hitler had no knowledge, concern, or control over. Incidently that same arguement is proposed by people who say Hitler never gave orders for the holocaust.

Christians can be right murderous bastards, but they hold (albiet twisted) christian beliefs, and associate with other "christians" not with occultists with wholly different beliefs.

[Rich Hunt]

63. it's not clear from the public record

We can best guess, judging from precedent, that he was an opportunist. Therefore his alleged religious beliefs are pretty much irrelevant.

However, you can bet there were atheists and "pagans" who supported Nazi ideology.

Moreover, I loathe how all talk of Nazism revolves around Hitler, and not the ideology and the people who supported the Nazis. As if everything could be blamed on Hitler alone.

[teknomanzer]

78. How succinct!

Moreover, I loathe how all talk of Nazism revolves around Hitler, and not the ideology and the people who supported the Nazis. As if everything could be blamed on Hitler alone.

You are totally right. The ideology, and the people who believed followed and developed the ideology of nazism is what empowered Hitler and others to do horrific things. Hitler without Thule, nationalism, racism, ubermensch philosophy... would have been a failed artist maybe working as a clerk someplace.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. He didn't persecute them for being Catholic

He persecuted them for standing up against Nazism.

Christians priests that played nice were left alone.

[Brightmore]

52. Hitler wasn't a Christian

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.
-Adolf Hitler

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.
-Adolf Hitler

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.
-Adolf Hitler

The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian; he views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race.
-Joseph Goebbels, in his diary, December 28, 1939.

And there is this as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism

[CentralEuropeanDude]

60. Link please ...

for your quote from "Mein Kampf".

I can't find anything like that in the german version.

[redwitch]

92. devout?

god-fearing and law abiding? I don't think so. And while organized religion has caused an enormous amount of anguish and suffering in the world I don't think we can blame Christianity for Hitler.

[noahmijo]

4. Well gee where do we start?

one word NATIONALISM

Nationalism is facist trait through and through which Socialism does not prescribe to.

One thing I say is that in the name of Patriotism we're suppressing civil liberties but is that truly patriotic? it's all bullshit word games which is all the cons have left at this point.

[underpants]

75. Wouldn't "nationalism" retard socialists's world domination goal?

One of the main aims of socialism was to spread socialism (any political ideal really) mainly through the supposed brotherhood of the workers (exploited of course). So nationalism would not help in linking, say, Polish workers with Hungarian workers. They would stop their support at the border of their own country.

[rooboy]

5. And these people explain the invasion of Russia how???

Geez Louise...

[gratuitous]

6. My standard rebuttal to a nonsensical point

"Prove it." That is, what is the person's reason for calling Hitler a socialist? Political parties can call themselves anything they want. The American fascists have called themselves by another name for years (hint: It starts with "R") hoping to confuse the gullible.

What specific actions or policies did Hitler enact or pursue that makes him a socialist? You might want to bring along a nail file or the New York Times Sunday crossword as the other person's long silence will draw out uncomfortably.

[GetTheRightVote]

8. I do not believe a socialist would kill his own country people for one

:kick:

[tulsakatz]

10. someone shared a page with me awhile back............

it's a pretty lengthy page so I won't post all of it here but here's a summary of what it says:

'Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.'

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

[evilqueen]

15. excellent

Could it be that socialism and worker-ownership of companies (where the workers elect their managers) is what the corporatists truly fear? Is this the reason Chavez is demonized?

[julianer]

47. Yes n/t

[Maple]

19. Hitler was not an atheist

[teknomanzer]

82. Wait - let me guess...

You must be an atheist... why else would you be so insulted by the mere suggestion.

But you are right Hitler was not an atheist. In fact when he survived the last bomb attempt against his life he said "providence" had preserved him for a special purpose. Providence - Not God, not Jehova, not Jesus, not Wotan... Providence... hmmmm...

Oh by the way that monster Stalin was an atheist. When are all the atheists going to claim resposibility for that one?

[moc]

57. Wow. Sounds just like a

Republican

[ThoughtCriminal]

11. So the Peoples REPUBLIC of China

must be Republican. Oh wait - they are.

[teknomanzer]

83. Thats right...

No monarchs in China.

[Maraya1969]

13. Tell them that Canada is a socialist society, (at least their medical

situation is concerned). Socialism is when all work for the common good. Hitler wanted domination and gained control of his soldiers by various types of brainwashing.

A good rolling of the eyes gives them a clue of how stupid that argument is.

so·cial·ism Audio pronunciation of "socialism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

[Maple]

20. Canada is not socialist

Canada is third way. Even in the health system.

[sasha031]

14. he use to pillaged all those he would invade and murder

and give to the troops so they could send the goodies to the families and be in support of the war machine.He murdered socialist and communist.
if that make a lefty with the dumb right :puke:

On the other hand our leader gives massive tax breaks to the wealthy,closes VA hospitals, lack of equipment, hides coffins,Hitler love coffins (war heroes) on and on.
Good for you if you can talk to those people, I sure could not,tell them to pick up a book.

[applegrove]

16. That is old. They claim fascism is only a leftist thing. Facism in the

20th Century was almost wholly a right wing thing.

See if they just clean up history then they can be right wing militarists with no history.

Also why they don't want to be named "neocons".

Nothing exists if they don't want it to.

[gumby]

17. Not Again!

The people arguing this crap are obviously covering up their own fascism through disingenuous word-play. Phooey!

Do Neo-Nazis think Hitler was a socialist? No.
Do members of Storm Front think Hitler was a socialist? No.

Just what, exactly, did Leo Strauss, the Godfather of the neo-cons now in power think about Hitler and Socialism? I'd wager that Strauss couldn't care two whits about "labels." Strauss preached that the acquisition of ultimate power is the only goal, no matter how it is achieved. Seems like the same political philosophy as Hitler to me.

Power for power's sake is the same fascist goal, now as then. The linguistic harangue over "National Socialist Workers Party" is just as bogus as the argument that Bush was 'elected' in 2000.

[swag]

18. Yup. Pretty fuckin' stupid. Unsurprising.

[Peter Frank]

28. The Extreme Fringes of Any Ideology...

...are all pretty much the same. The scary part is when their party is in power. Look at the facist Hitler & socialist Stalin regimes -- both generated genecide on a monsterous level.

Scary for me is that I cannot think of any individuals more on the fringe of the Republican party -- than those currently in power.

[moondust]

29. One of my favs: Saddam's REPUBLICAN Guard.

Saddam's right hand men!

[magellan]

31. National Socialist German Workers Party -- the name is misleading

The National Socialist German Workers Party arose from the German Workers Party, a nationalist group whose worker-friendly platforms Hitler used to woo the unions and downtrodden who were suffering under Germany's depression. He expanded its tenets to anti-Jew, anti-socialist, anti-liberal, anti-capitalist, anti-communist, and anti-democracy -- all of which Hitler blamed for Germany's failure in WWI and after. Kneejerk reactionaries loved this 'victimization' plank and perceived Hitler as a strong leader who would turn things around for them.

So let's get this straight. Hitler was a rabid nationalist with a stark authoritarian viewpoint who brooked no opposition and felt every good German should fall in line...for the betterment of the State, not themselves. There's a distinct word for that: Fascist. It appeared in its contemporary form in 1921 under Mussolini. There are different forms of Fascism but generally it shares these principles (from Wikipedia):

* exalts the union party above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.

* stresses loyalty to a single leader, and submission to a single culture.

* engages in economic totalitarianism through the creation of a Corporatist State, where the divergent economic and social interests of different races and classes are combined with the interests of the State.

So basically, anyone who calls Hitler a socialist doesn't know diddly about Hitler OR socialism. If they cared about the truth, trying to equate Liberals to Hitler would never enter their minds because it simply doesn't parse. Instead they'd be concerned by the disturbing parallels between BushCo's neoconsters and fascist policy.

[donco6]

48. Yes.

There was a reason Hitler and Co. despised the communists - they were antithetical to just about everything Nazi. So to equate socialism with national socialism is admitting to ignorance.

[VOX]

53. Excellent analysis, magellan. Thanks. n/t

[akarnitz]

35. Doublespeak

Just like "Clean Skies Act"!

All the facists and totalitarians are using it. Get hip!

Not that I'm accusing any Rethugs.... :sarcasm:

[julianer]

49. Hitler was neither socialist or christian

But he used the rhetoric of both in order to gain support.

The original nazi movement did have a 'left' nature represented by the SA's street gangs, but this was inextricably linked with hatred of jews, communists, socialists etc.

The SA was a considerable threat to Hitler and just about his first act after his nomination as chancellor was to unleash the 'Night of the Long Knives' which saw the murder of the SA leadership. Eric Roehm, the SA's leader, along with many thousands of others were shot and the SA's importance was dramatically reduced.

This had two benefits for Hitler - it removed a threat to his power with in the Nazi party, and it ended the 'leftist' demands of his movement, reassuring the capitalists who had supported his rise that he knew who his true friends were.

The Nazi conception of a national religion was a mixture of nineteenth century christian morality and nationalist paganism. He was interested in promoting a mystical force of nature, something deeply inherent in what it was to be German, a mixture of Valkyrie and mountains, forests and puritanism, spirit and nobility - in order to encapsulate himself as the representative of this mishmash.

[Maple]

50. Hitler was a christian

Please stop dragging tabloid stories about paganism into it.

Pagans do not appreciate it.

Neither do athiests.

Hitler was Christian...by his own word, and by the word of his church.

[akarnitz]

54. Hitler was a sociopath

and non-religious. He put on the christian "mask" to appeal to those Germans who were christians. Christians(Catholics and Protestants, both) in all of Europe have a long history of anti-semitism. Hitler realized this, as he also realized wearing the "mask" bonded him closer to the Bund.

Hitler was born in Hapsburg Austria at a time when a virulently anti-semitic brand of German Nationalism was taking root. The Empire had been rocked by the revolutions of 1848 and the war with Prussia in 1866. It lost its primacy in pan-German politics and its tenuous economy was plummeting. The Germans of the Empire were suffering, and as they looked to the north they realized their cousins in the newly formed Germany(fronted by Prussia) were enjoying boom times. The Germans of Austria could not find it in themselves to blame their beloved, if incompetent, Kaiser Franz Josef, so they fell back on the old scapegoat, the Jews.

This feeling spread across the borders into the areas of Germany, such as Bavaria, when those areas hit hard times. When WW I came and went, all of Germany was economically ruined. Hitler, the Austrian transplant raised in the ideology of German superiority steeped in scapegoating anti-semitism, saw a void and sought to fill it. Germans
felt they should have won the war. In the spring of 1918 they nearly did. They were defeated, but not soundly. They looked to place blame.
So Hitler put on his "mask" and pointed at the synagogues. Since many of the signateurs of the Versailles Treaty and many leaders of the Weimar Republic were Jews, many Germans believed.

Had Hitler not made the appeal to the traditonal Christianity of the Bund, he may still have achieved his goals. But if one watches Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will", (s)he might note the demonstrations of traditional(pre-christian) German values with a hint of Christianity. This because, I believe, Hitler would only make
gesture towards the christians for he was no believer.

[Lilith Velkor]

71. Yeah, believers are never sociopaths, right?

Unless they belive in a pagan religion, right?

:eyes:

[akarnitz]

84. No, sociopaths are users

they don't make real connections w/others.

Take, for instance, Ted Bundy. Bundy worked at a crisis center, on a suicide hotline, as he was beginning his killings. The work was just a cover: who'd believe this guy could be anything but a kind and loving person.

I never said Hitler was a pagan. I think the closest thing to a god for Hitler was Wagner.

Hitler was nominally a Roman Catholic. So was I. Hitler drifted from the church. I dumped it(as well as any organized religion). When asked my religion, I say I'm agnostic. Hitler still claimed Catholocism, but I wonder how often he practiced the sacraments.(And, BTW, if you call my devoutly Roman Catolic grandmother a Christian she feels offended. Then she mutters something in french that I'm pretty sure isn't very complimentary.)

[Lilith Velkor]

87. ROFL!

Wait, lemme guess: Your other grandmother is devoutly Shia, but if you call her a Muslim, she'll cuss you out in Arabic?

:spray:

And you still haven't explained how Christians cannot be sociopaths, you have only described a sociopath as if it were self-evident that the definitions are mutually exclusive. Does calling oneself Christian make one immune to mental illness? If so, how does that work?

[julianer]

55. Well I suggest you stop

your endless assertions and do some reading.

It is a little insulting for you to assume that my post was 'dragging tabloid stories' into the debate.

There was quite a tradition of Nordic and Germanic mysticism and the ideas of the primacy of will represented by people like Wagner, Chamberlain and Neitzche - a mixing of myth, mysticism and morality, helping to develop the idea of both Germanic racial superiority and the corresponding inferiority of other races - that goes back deep into German culture. The Nazis tapped into this claiming that the will of the leader was in some way a distillation of these primal forces.

Wagner was criticised for being anti-christian (as well as being anti-semitic) and Hitler is quoted as saying that to understand Nazism you must understand Wagner.

The point is that Hitler promoted the idea of German racial superiority and this necessitated a break with traditional christianity, but was helped by a link with the ideas of paganism.

In practical terms Hitler was only interested in power and both dealt with and repressed organised religion, but the idea of paganism found many echoes in the Nazi movement as a whole.

[PowerToThePeople]

58. I keep making un-backed up statements

Many people on this thread have listed sources to show that Hitler was acting and operating against Christianity in Germany. YOu have not given any sources to back up your position, just state it over and over and say you are right. You are beginning to sound like *.

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." - George W Bush

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Really?

Just because he persecuted a lot of priests WHO STOOD UP AGAINST HIM?

I have yet to see evidence of the Nazi establishment persecuting Christians for the SOLE reason of them being Christian, like they did to the Jews and Gypsies. If there is one in this thread and I missed it, please point it out because I may be developing sight problems.

[Hubert Flottz]

56. The Republican Guard

Were Republicans!

[mtnester]

59. "Look Over There!!!!!!"

eom

[Mutley]

64. Many of the uninformed seem to think

that Socialism, Fascism, and Communism are all the same thing. I don't claim to have changed minds, but I have caused people I know to pause and rethink some of their talking points after I have informed them of the difference between those three political ideologies.

Here is a link that I've found useful in this debate with conservatives:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm

<snip>

Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Many of the socialist leaders in Germany, including Kurt Eisner, Rosa Luxemburg, Ernst Toller and Eugen Levine were Jews. So also were many of the leaders of the October Revolution in Russia. This included Leon Trotsky, Gregory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Dimitri Bogrov, Karl Radek, Yakov Sverdlov, Maxim Litvinov, Adolf Joffe, and Moisei Uritsky. It had not escaped Hitler's notice that Karl Marx, the prophet of socialism, had also been a Jew.

<snip>

Information supplied by Hitler helped to track down several soldiers involved in the uprising. His officers were impressed by his hostility to left-wing ideas and he was recruited as a political officer. Hitler's new job was to lecture soldiers on politics. The main aim was to promote his political philosophy favoured by the army and help to combat the influence of the Russian Revolution on the German soldiers.

<snip>

Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end.

<snip>

To appeal to the working class and socialists, the programme included several measures that would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing in large industries, nationalization of trusts, increases in old-age pensions and free education.

===============================================================

So, I take this to mean that Hitler only used a few socialist talking points to appeal to the many socialists in Germany at the time, but in reality he despised the ideology itself.

[tanyev]

65. A group of fascists seized control of a political party which

happened to be called the National Socialist Party. Much like the modern group of fascists that has seized control of what is called the Republican party. Names become quite meaningless in such a situation.

[Gruenemann]

68. EVEN WORSE....

The actual name was the National Socialist DEMOCRATIC Worker's Party!

[Postman]

79. the propaganda starts in the "name"

they weren't socialist they were fascist.

[LSK]

74. so ask them why Hitler attacked the communists in Germany 1st

He even attacked them before he started messing with Jews. Hitler blamed the Reichstag fire on communists. One of his 1st acts was to outlaw the communist party.

But I guess Freeps dont care about facts.

[Postman]

77. Just like Communist nations were/are "Democratic Republics"

And the United States is a "Democracy"

It's not the name that correctly identifies political economies but what they actually represent and how they are carried on...

There certainly may have been forms of socialism in FASCIST Germany just as there are forms of socialism in capitalist countries, including the United States (i.e most of the socialism going to wealthy corporations)

[Zenlitened]

80. Therefore... Democrats believe in Democracy. Republicans don't.

:D

[tomg]

81. About the origins of the charge,

I posted this on another thread, but it might be more relevant here.

Originally at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4462497

Thanks. I started thinking that
some right wing pundit had started it, and that I had just missed it.
The canard could come from the fact that while the Nazi party started as the German Workers Party, when Hitler ousted Drexler he only kept some of the worker's right rhetoric as a way of bolstering the membership among unemployed and disaffected working class.

As I was researching some of this, I think I found one of the originators of this nonsense. It is Erik Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, about whom I knew nothing. He published for Regenery Gateway ( rw publishing house)and his chief book is Leftism Revisited, From de Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot. Here is a quick quote:

"The three fundamentally leftist revolutions, those that spawned France's democracy, Russian's international socialism, and Germany's national socialism, formed and fashioned the history of the last two hundred years and established the 'Centuries of the G'— guillotines, gaols, gallows, gas chambers, and gulags". Leftism Revisited, pg xvii.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_von_Kuehnelt-Leddihn


Just added: Erik, it seems, was a Catholic Monarchist. While I am not familiar with Erik-von- etc., I am familiar with far right Catholic Monarchists groups of the 1930s, and not just Action Francaise ( actually I know more about British groups of the 1930s than continental). Among some of them, it was believed that the geater threat was "godless" communism, although there was also a general distrust of liberal democracies and the whole concept of modernity in general. Some times, at least in the UK, the political alliances gets really strange on the fringe, and our distinctions of right-left, conservative-liberal are utterly meaningless.

[PATRICK]

86. More on the history of redefinition

I tried finding out about American Nazis or enablers in WWII and tried the Google thinking to get the usual names. Instead I get lots of diatribes by mainly the GOP of the post war era trying to call commies and leftists fascists or nazis. The sheer noise of the counter-intuitive effort seems to have paid off. I also remember my history books trying mainly to lump fascism and communism into the one term "totalitarianism" and putting together the common denominators although Hitler fought Communism except for a brief alliance of convenience and Russia was our ally in the war. During the Cold War the white hats and blacks hats seemed to get lumped into their respective beds in totally hypocritical ways. We used Nazis ops and the Soviets got labeled fascists. Using that broad abuse of the term we are certainly on firmer ground. Newt Gingrich did not invent doublespeak or newspeak. Nor did Orwell.

Those who decry us trying to specify the real experience and ideological comparisons more sanely at least are the same ones who very much do NOT want their WWII pro-fascist words and deeds ever examined. Same party, same families, same businesses, same RW corporatist philosophy, same passions. Historians, who are even more accurate and sane, point out the specific differences in the term fascism and the particular RW problem today. The trouble was that defining the WWII criminals and their movement was too specific. The world was searching to purge the evil. The political and business leaders were trying to isolate it to the defeated perps and "move on" all the real problems intact, most of the supporting ideas and people totally untouched. Not only untouched by scared by the meltdown and global abhorrence of the Axis, but determined to project and protect in a reaction every bit as bad as the goals of the Third Reich.

Now the minimal responses, The U.N., World Courts, are trying to be swept aside by the America-who-became-its-enemy-crowd. Facing an upsurge of democracy, justice and human development all the despicable things are borrowed from Stalinists, fascists and ancient aristocracies . This is not comic book Nazis redux(only in the comic book RW hacks and WH neocons), it is the root of evil poking up out of your lawn bigger than ever.

A root the current Democratic party is not (yet) committed to eradicate, to put it mildly. But the thrust of this is still the same. These type of Mammonite ideologues or "Christians" have their own brute way of interpreting "Do unto others".

Our paerticular pleasue in using the term is not defensive projection but the tweaking of the current RW hacks with the monster/loser image of their great global corporate Empire gone bust- which they had to demolish as loyal citizens of democracies they always intended to undermine. The flavor of the month is Neocon Delight, the triumph of the shill and shrill.

As for Christianity, Hitler had a Romanticized or reduced to expediency
view of religion in general. After the Concrodat and runins with Churchmen of conscience Hitler was as enamored of neo-paganism(which he ridiculed off the record) as of anything. His cult was of himself. The trajectory had this lasted beyond him would have been same as that of the Caesars or any other Asian empire. W is showing the same compressed signs, but then he is a feeble man all in all, much preferred by his handlers who aren't too swift or "strong" either.

[mcctatas]

99. "His cult was of himself"

Exactly the point I was trying to make when this whole shitstorm started, not that he was an atheist, pagan, Zoroastrian or a ham sandwich!!! You stated it much better!!:toast:

[Roland99]

85. heh heh. I love it when Freeper-types call me a Fascist.

Ignorance is bliss.


I guess Freepers are the happiest morans on earth!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. Absolutist thinking

For those types, not only everything leftist must be evil, but everything evil must be leftist too. It's a higher level of insanity.

[ComerPerro]

96. Bear in mind, these are same people who think Bush is a man of God

Because he tells them he is.

Yeah, Hitler called his party the National Socialist Workers Party.

He was lying.