Why I won't be saying the pledge tommorow...

[Idioteque]

I am a senior at a public high school in St. Petersburg, Florida.

Every morning on the school morning show, the pledge is recited. Most kids stand up but quite a few don't and they usually aren't looked down upon or ridiculed and most teachers don't mind.

I'm not a big fan of having the pledge said at school. Not only do I think it is stupid to force kids to pledge allegiance to anything, as an athiest, I don't particularly like being told that I am in a country under an imaginary being that I have no belief in.

I usually stand, because it doesn't hurt me and I don't really have any reason not to. I have two friends in my class, however, who choose not to. Today, after the pledge, the teacher called up my friends and told them that from now on they are to stand for the pledge. While they didn't argue, they have decided that tommorow they will continue to sit during the pledge. I am going join them and sit it out tommorow in protest as are a few other people in my class.

It seems to me that the Constitution and the Supreme Court are on our side. This teacher has a history of trying to impose her right-wing views on her students. Wish us luck!

[dissent1977]

1. Good for you

I admire students who stand up, or in this case sit down for their beliefs.

[Guaranteed]

2. Just say "With liberty and justice for all."

That's all that matters.

[Nite Owl]

3. Good, don't be intimidated

do what you believe is the right thing. Let us know what happens.

[distantearlywarning]

4. Good for you! n/t

[Stephanie]

5. Very proud of you.

Very glad to hear that you will stand up for your beliefs and for the rights of your friends. Good luck!

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. I am a teacher

and I can assure you that this teacher of yours has no right to impose her RW views on students. You should encourage your parents to contact your principal or the school board to complain. This is unethical at the very least.

I admire your choice to sit during the pledge. Good for you!!

[kbm8795]

18. You are absolutely right !

And while I'm teaching at the college level, I would never think of imposing my views on any student. As a senior in high school, you are supposed to be getting prepared to either go to college or the work world, and in either case the ability to think independently is supposed to be encouraged.

I am so careful with my own students (and they are legal adults) - because I want them to develop their own identities, not an identity I've decided to choose for them. What your teacher is doing here is completely unethical. . .this country does not have a required loyalty oath.

[BikeWriter]

7. Good for you! Recommended for Greatest Page

I think you'll find you have a lot of support here!

[Chipper Chat]

8. If you haven't already......

Open up a page on "MySpace.com" It is about 50% teens, it's free, and a great springboard for emerging bands and political agendas. You can reach millions of people (like the story of Zach, a Tennessee gay high school student that was sent to a "change camp" by his parents. He told his story via a daily blog in MySpace & that helped get the story out & it became national news.
(just google MySpace - do it tonight!) Good luck. You are brave.

[Idioteque]

10. I do have a MySpace...and I am a member of the FreeZach group :)!

Ten steps ahead of you, but thanks for the advice :P.

[Chipper Chat]

28. Dude....you are so......today!

Maybe I'll run into you on MySpace. Lots-O-luck!!!

[tanyev]

9. Be strong!!!

I, too, find it very odd that a nation that supposedly cherishes its freedom and democracy would require its youth to participate in a daily recitation of a 31 word pledge. Is it a mantra? A magic spell? I guess when communist China and the Soviet Union started forcing its citizens to do such a thing, the U.S. didn't want to be left out of all the fun.

I taught elementary school for a couple years and it never occurred to me to make them stand up and say the pledge. We did have a flag in the room. If one of the kids hadn't asked me toward the end of the school year why we never said it, I might never have realized my omission.

[Ms. Toad]

42. In Ohio,

you wouldn't have had a choice.

It was common when I grew up, then pretty much vanished, and a few years ago - likely during the first gulf war, school boards in Ohio were required to adopt a policy one way or the other - either their district will recite the pledge or it will not. I am not aware of any school district that adopted a policy not to. Can you imagine the next school board election if they had?

Children cannot be required to participate - but it is rare that children who are able to withstand the peer pressure that comes along with the morning loudspeaker, mass rising and recitation.

[tanyev]

43. I was teaching in a private school in Texas.

I was a new teacher. I don't even know if it was school policy that we had to recite the pledge. Nobody ever told me I should, and it just never occurred to me. I was waaaay too busy trying to keep up with all of the lessons. It wasn't until one of the students asked that I realized that all the other classrooms probably did recite the pledge every day.

[teach1st]

11. I run a message board for Pinellas Count teachers...

..I'd be interested in reaction from teachers if you'd care to post anonymously in the public area.

http://www.tuff-teach.com/

[cheezus]

12. thanks for standing up (even if it means sitting down) for them!

You're fighting for what that flag stands for, which is far more noble than fighting for the flag itself.

When I was in school the only one who didn't get hassled for not doing the pledge was the Jehovah's Witness girl (who, given the whole no false idols before me thing, you'd thing the right wing would be with). I always ommited the "under god". It was only added in the 50's to intimidate atheists.

[Mich Otter]

22. You can say, "without gods"...

You can say, "without gods" if you are inclined to say the pledge but don't accept the religious bull.

[Starone]

13. I am also a teacher

in Indiana. A state law was just passed mandating all public schools to provide the pledge and a moment of silence in all classrooms. We start Monday. My plan is to provide the time in my classroom, but to not participate myself. I surely would respect all students who wish to say the pledge, but will also respect those who wish not to participate. Supposedly the law is written that no student shall be forced to say the pledge, it is just mandatory for all schools to provide the opportunity. I agree with others who posted before me; have your parents call the school to ensure that you and others are not forced to participate. If that doesn't work, contact the ACLU.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. It's a law where I teach

but I don't push it. The law doesn't say the kids have to say it; it says the schools have to provide the opportunity at least once a week.

I also do not say the words 'under God'.

[roguevalley]

14. good luck, honey. we are proud of you.

[Bucky]

15. I say the pledge gratefully every morning at school

Your teacher is an asshat, however. Compelling people to say it is frankly unamerican. I could never tell kids they also have to recite something. I think you should report her, raise a big stink, fight for your rights. What are they gonna do, fire you from school? Deny you an education because you showed that you were awake during your social studies class?

I really admire the kids in my class who don't say the pledge. I like saying it, altho I skip over the part I don't like ("under God"). I enjoy the ritual and the moment to reflect on what our country has meant to history. But only a rank one idiot could think saying the pledge was something worth throwing your weight around for.

[noamnety]

16. Good luck

We've only done the pledge during assemblies where I teach, and 2 years ago we had students that stopped standing for it. Last year the school just stopped doing it altogether - I'm not sure if they didn't want visiting parents to notice the kids who didn't participate or if they forgot, or what.

It's been nicer without it - as a teacher and an atheist, I was not comfortable with the under God part. I don't know how to set a good example with that - say the pledge out loud except for that, in which case my beliefs become an issue in the school, where I think they should be private ... or say it and my example becomes "go against your own beliefs to fit in." Ugh. There is no right decision for that. Even without the nationalistic indoctrination aspect, I object to public recitation of the pledge as an invasion of privacy because of that phrase. Nobody should have to stand up in a public school and state their religious beliefs.

[struggle4progress]

17. Some stuff you could say:

1. Hey! Wasn't this written by a socialist?

2. It's against my religion to repeat this stuff: the Bible says not to take The Name in vain and not to bow down before idols

3. Ask me again after we really have "liberty and justice for all"

4. Mah Pappy an is confederate kin never done cotton to that thar "indivisible" part

5. Does anybody else here feel stupid pledging "allegience" to a piece of cloth?


I often enjoyed trying lines like this in high school (some decades ago) -- but the teachers and administration really didn't appreciate it

[Mich Otter]

20. If the pledge is such a sacred thing...

why does anyone ever have to repeat it? If you have pledged once, isn't that pledge good till you take an "un-pledge"?
Can the teacher tell you the words to the "un-pledge" and are you free to "un-pledge" if you wish, or is there a limit on your freedom in America?
How about something like;

I un-pledge allegiance to the liars who run this country,
and to the evil they represent.
I un-pledge to the racists and bigots who are all around.
I un-pledge to the corporations who put profits ahead of the needs of Americans.
I un-pledge to the imaginary gods, who don't rule me.

[girl gone mad]

21. Good luck.

Let us know how it turns out.

[donco6]

23. No one can make you stand.

But they can come after you for making a vocal or physical disturbance. A quiet, visual protest will make the most impact and they can't do a damn thing about it.

[Hamlette]

24. good luck

and "god" bless you, from one atheist to another

[Mr_Spock]

25. I'm very proud of you for taking a stand

I wish I could go back in time and take a stand where I just "went along" while I was in public school. Good for you!

[KarenS]

26. Good for you and Good Luck with this!!

Please let us know what happens.

[Hun Joro]

27. I don't think I ever said the pledge when I was a student.

I stood with the other kids, so as not to appear conspicuous and make myself more an object of ridicule than I already was, as the only vegetarian most people had ever encountered in those days, but I did not say the words. I remember wondering, even when I was pretty young, why I should pledge allegiance to a country that might and probably did do things I thought were terrible. I grew up against the backdrop of the civl rights movement and the Vietnam war. When my daughter began school, I told her she did not have to say the pledge either. I think the American custom of forcing children to pledge blind allegiance is a form of brainwashing which is, in large part, to blame for the gung-ho jingoistic nature of much of the population.

You are a bright and thoughtful young person. Keep thinking for yourself.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

35. It's pretty clear to me that he understands it just fine n/t

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestateguy]

30. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

The law is on the students' side. Your teacher would be the one breaking the law, so ironically, it is she, not you and your friends, who are committing civil disobedience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion."

[unblock]

36. it's not 'civil disobedience' when the government does it

civil disobedience is done by, well, civilians.

if the school is public, then the teacher is acting as a part of the government, and when they violate the law it's not called 'civil disobedience'; rather, it's called 'abuse of power'.


one interesting aspect of the barnette decision was that they key unconsititional part of the pledge was the requirement to pledge allegience to that flag, to which the jehovah's witnesses objected as a graven image.

if the pledge were to be modified so that allegience was pledged only to the united states itself (but not its flag), then perhaps that would survive constitutional muster. personally, i think ANY loyalty test should be unconstitutional, but sadly, i do not sit on the supreme court....

[spuddonna]

31. Go for it!! Good luck, and let us know how it goes! n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Good For You!! I was mumbling the "Under God" line in grade school in the

early 1970s. It seemed wrong to me even then, and I was only dimly aware that what I was was called an "atheist"...

But it's not even about that. It's about being forced to stand for something when the Supreme Court has clearly said they can't do that to you. Beyond the whole "Under God" thing, what is the value in coerced displays of loyalty, particularly when the primary thing you're being asked to display loyalty to is a nation obstensibly founded upon the notion of freedom of speech and conscience? And in any case, shouldn't loyalty be earned... or at least offered freely?

I'd get in touch with my local chapter of the ACLU if you run into any trouble. Also Americans United for Separation of Church and State is an excellent resource.

[Tigress DEM]

33. OR... You could all stand, but turn to face the back of the room ..

and remain silent... my son would have gotten creative to get out of trouble and still prove his point.

If she confronts you, remember to remain peaceful. State your views calmly and say you are simply exercising your freedom of speech by not choosing to follow along. Don't let them make this about you and your friends being disruptive or surly.

Shame her with your civility if she gets out of line, just smile and say, "I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, but that's the great thing about America. We all get to have our own ideas, beliefs and values and are allowed the freedom to express them, right?"

If she sends you to the principals office, state your case again calmly and outline anything she did that was over the line.

Indy news websites might cover this. You could even write up your own article describing your personal protest.

[Tactical Progressive]

34. Maybe try: "One nation, of no religion, ..."

in place of "One nation, under God, ...".

That's assuming that the religious aspect is what's bothering you the most.

I think "of no religion" is a more appropriate representation of what this country stands for than "under God", and would like it to become the new standard for anyone who doesn't want a prayer as pledge.

[fleabert]

37. rock on.

that kicks ass. I was forced to stand in class many moons ago, but I stood silent. for different reasons, but similar principles. :-) let us know how it goes. If the teacher tries to get you punished, call the ACLU.

[Mich Otter]

38. Make a phone call to the ACLU just to wake the school board up.

If the ACLU sends the school board a letter, try to get a copy of the letter and send it to the newspapers.
This is an excellent opportunity to make a stand and raise some hell.

[WMliberal]

40. I'm a teacher and an atheist.

Most days I stand and recite it (sans "under God"). I don't ask anyone else to do it. I don't make a stink if my students are talking or still getting their notebooks and pens out instead.

I know what country I live in and I'm loyal to. I'm pledged to it whether I say so every day facing a flag or not. It's not like I'm going to suddenly forget and choose another country :crazy:

There's nothing in law and little in etiquette that says one must do it.

[teach1st]

41. Hope everything went OK

Here's the relevant Pinellas County Schools code:

6.13 PATRIOTIC OBSERVANCES AND PERIODS OF SILENCE

(1) In order that the youth within our schools be given the opportunity to develop within themselves national pride and patriotism, there shall be conducted within the Pinellas County schools the observance of patriotic exercises at the beginning of each day, consisting of the pledge to the flag and, when appropriate, the singing of the National Anthem.

(2) Immediately following the daily patriotic exercises, those students and faculty members who wish to observe a brief period of silence for reflection or recollection, which shall not be construed as a religious observance, shall be given such opportunity.

(3) Those students and faculty members not wishing to participate in such patriotic observances and silent periods should maintain a respectful silence, refraining from any act that would interfere with such observances.

(4) The School Board regards such patriotic exercises at the beginning of all formal school sponsored programs, i.e., assemblies, parent-faculty programs, public forums conducted by the schools, athletic games and other forms of competition, etc., to be in keeping with the American way of life; therefore, the Board enthusiastically endorses such observances within our schools.

[Massacure]

44. Congratulations Idioteque,

I too am a senior, but from Wisconsin. The pledge was done over the PA every day during my history class last year, don't know what it will be this year though. Normally my teacher didn't care if we stood or recited it, but one day we had a sub who did. Nearly no one stood for the pledge, mainly out of laziness, but when the sub got pissed off, most my class sung "Oh Canada." Of course they cannot punish a whole class. But you are not alone. Good luck!