There's no way that a young family can get by without a minivan these days

[Skidmore]

I just realized that when my third grandchild was born to my daughter and her husband. They had been a single car family driving a fuel efficient sedan, but with the addition of a child, they needed to move to a bigger vehicle. There's no way you can seat 3 kids in a sedan with all the ever bigger seating systems required by law for kids these days. I don't think we'll see demand for those big cars go away anytime soon. Just an observation.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. back seat holds three car seats. nt

[China_cat]

2. In what car?

Not any of the smaller ones I've seen.

[radwriter0555]

113. The Scion minivan is AWESOME. Cheap, well made, safe, economic, well

built and environmentally sound. What's the problem?

[charlie]

121. Scion is indeed awesome

but it's not large enough for 3 differently aged kids. I own an XA, which oddly enough has more width space than the XB, but it's only 54 inches. That'll accomodate maybe 3 of the tiniest infant carriers abreast, but anything larger, fuggedaboutit.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. two on each side one in the middle

That would be why there are three belts on the back bench.

I raised three kids and we had the three car seat configuration lots of times. Sure it is more convenient to have a third seat but it is not essential.

[charlie]

15. Maybe not anymore

A lot of states nowadays require kids up to 60 pounds or 6 years ride in a child restraint system. Dunno if the OP's contention that a minivan is the only option is true, but it seems that finding a wide enough back seat for 3 of those gizmos won't be easy.

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/state_laws/restrain2.htm

[ohio_liberal]

127. Yep, they passed a law in WV

that any kids under the age of 8 have to be in an age-appropriate car seat. I have three kids and have to borrow a larger vehicle to take my Mom to work one day a week across state lines.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. Not in many cars today -- you seem to be talking about

bigger cars that you had while raising your children. I couldn't have fit three car seats in the back of my VW squareback that I drove from 1970-1982 and some cars today are smaller than it was. Ditto my VW bug -- no room for three car seats in the back.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. Not any more

Most smaller economical sedans have only 2 seatbelts in the backseat.

[Cocoa]

3. you should say a young middle class family

obviously there are young families that don't have any vehicle at all.

[HamdenRice]

5. Yeah -- last I checked the public bus holds about 75 bt

[dalloway]

8. ever try and carry three car seats onto a public bus?

[HamdenRice]

27. LOL! nt

[SmokingJacket]

42. Unless you have triplets, this wouldn't happen.

I've brought one and a toddler many times.

[plusfiftyfive]

4. Funny I grew up in a family of five

And we NEVER had a minivan, SUV, or even a station wagon!!! We all fit in the car, we put the other stuff in the trunk, it was a Ford sedan.

I think people find it easy to believe they have to have a lot of space when travelling and that they have to go thousands of miles in the family car. If you go on a long trip, RENT a van or SUV for the two week trip, but don't think you ALWAYS need to drive a big car. Most SUV's I see on the road are driven by ONE PERSON riding ALONE!!!! Talk about a waste of fuel!

Get over this obsession with big is better! My opinion!

[dalloway]

11. they didn't have car seat regulations back then.

The issue isn't how much space the kids take up, it is how much space their mandated CAR SEATS take up.

[dalloway]

12. or air bags which prevents younger children from being able to

ride in the front of the car.

[okieinpain]

64. sorry but you can't rent a suv or van for out of state trips. we have

a large truck (v-6), and a mini-van(v-6). I'm not going to trade them any time soon.

[City Lights]

68. We've rented minivans and driven them legally across state lines.

Lots of times. We rented a van in IL and drove it to Boston. Rented one in IL and drove to MO. Rented one in IL and drove to WI. Rented one in IL and drove through IN to MI.

On edit - We've rented a vehicle in one country (IRE) and returned it in another (UK).

[okieinpain]

124. well in oklahoma, you are not suppose to leave the state in them.

maybe it's different were you live.

[PaulaFarrell]

112. I did last year

Rented it in Virginia, dropped it off in Texas. No problem.

[okieinpain]

125. I guess you're right. I just called and inquired and they said you

could have unlimited miles. when we checked last year you could not leave the state. interesting

[RebelOne]

114. What state do you live in?

My daughter rented a van in Florida for a trip up here to Georgia.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. Did you all wear seatbelts?

Did you use car seats?

[dalloway]

6. I agree. I have 3 kids and it is next to impossible to fit three car seats

in the back because of their width. Not to mention the need to carpool with other kids. We had to go to a minivan and mine is often full. I only wish the automakers would make a hybrid minivan. Don't they know that moms like me are one of the best targets for such a sale?

[driver8]

22. Three car seats are almost impossible to fit into one back seat

We have two car seats, and our kids always want their grandpa to sit with them --there is very little room for grandpa to squeeze into.

Those car seats (required by law) take up a lot of room. We finally bought a mini van and it is definitely worth it. The gas mileage is about the same as my Toyota Camry, and the extra room definitely comes in handy.

[knitter4democracy]

83. I've only done it once with much squishing.

The one in the middle was a rear-facing baby seat for my friend's baby, and it only worked because my two have their boosters already. If it had been three boosters, we couldn't have done and needed two cars.

Honestly, it is crazy. I feel safer in my Outback than in a minivan any day, but I can only fit our two kids and dog in it. If we had three, I'd have to get something else.

[China_cat]

123. Honda has one in the works

We are watching for it, too. With 4 dogs, a mobility scooter, ramp and a wheelchair to haul around, even the biggest car is out of the question for us.

[crispini]

7. this should be good.

:popcorn:

[Solly Mack]

9. lol! I've been checking in & thinking the same thing

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. Really!

:popcorn:

[SmokingJacket]

44. I know a family with four kids that got by with a station wagon.

And a single one at that. Now that the oldest are teens, carpooling requires more space, so now they have a minivan.

What do you think people did before minivans were invented?

I had one for a while, and I was suprised that there was actually not that much more space in them. I think they're poorly designed. I felt like I was taking my life in my hands whenever I backed up.

[KittyWampus]

78. Thank You. It's Called A Station Wagon. They Don't Block Other Drivers'

view ahead on the road.

[knitter4democracy]

85. Remember the car seats issue, though.

Car seats are bigger and all these days. Try fitting all those car seats and boosters in a station wagon. I have an Outback, and I can't fit three in the back in booster seats.

[LeftyMom]

102. I have a station wagon.

It seats five, but a max of three kids because the two seats in the back have airbags.

Models with the rear-facting 3rd row seat usually have a weight limit on that seat so it only fits kids under 100 lbs or so, and since carseats and boosters can't be used in the rear- facing seat that means most kids would only fit back there for a year or two, making it almost useless.

I love my wagon, but when I have another kid I'll be getting a minivan. :)

[K8-EEE]

138. I Love My Saab Wagon

I hate minivans, but I only have 2 kids.

[Lorien]

134. Yep; I spent much of my childhood in a station wagon

with my best friend, her two brothers, two large dogs and her parents. We all survived annual trips up to Canada just fine.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

79. Got anything to drink?

:popcorn:

[jody]

13. But millions of young families are on minimum wage and can barely

afford an old clunker. Is it elitist to talk about minivans like this when people lack decent jobs, etc.?

[eternalburn]

16. Haven't you heard....

....It's against the law to be poor.

[jody]

23. I agree but that's an economic law from capitalism. n/t

[eternalburn]

65. I think that is the way things just end up.....

...no matter what "ism".

[jody]

69. Aren't there "ism" that share the wealth? n/t

[eternalburn]

122. Good intentions.......

....to start but never seem to survive over time :(

[sellitman]

14. Mini Vans are not SUV's

Although they are large they are generally built on a car body, not a truck body and get much better milage. With a Highbred engine they could get 30 mpg.

[cmd]

128. Thank you

Minivans are cars. SUVs are trucks. They fall into different catagories under fuel consumption laws.

[wishlist]

17. Many minivans get as good mileage (in the 20's) as small/medium cars

The mileage requirements for cars are lax and car makers have taken advantage of the "light truck" loophole in the mileage requirement law so that many small cars such as PT Cruisers actually get worse than some minivans. You can no longer judge the fuel efficiency (or the cost) of a vehicle from its size.

When I grew up in the 50's and 60's, it was easy to cram a whole family into a sedan because there were no requirements for seat belts, let alone bulky safety seats. I recall we had a car with no seat belts and my mom's only safety method was to hold out her right arm as a barrier in front of us kids in the front to keep us from flying forward if we were going to hit a bump or stop suddenly.

[theHandpuppet]

19. Population control works, too

But even here on DU we're not supposed to discuss THAT option.

[Pepperbelly]

21. what are they supposed to do?

Kill the third child? :sarcasm:

:shrug:

[theHandpuppet]

24. That's the kind of reaction I expected

...and it's ludicrous. You know EXACTLY what I mean. It's called PLANNED parenthood and yes, it should be voluntary and it IS socially responsible.

I get sick and tired of coming on to DU to discuss the problems associated with global warming, peak oil, pollution, and the wrecking of this planet when no one is willing to rationally discuss that big fat elephant sitting in the middle of our global living room -- OVERPOPULATION, and especially how burgeoning populations in developed countries are sucking the life out of this planet.

This thread provides just ONE example of how continuing to have large families contributes to the whole mess. Look how just having three kids as opposed to two or even one effects a family. The ramifications are too numerous to even list in one post.

So yeah, go ahead and flame me or respond with something as ludicrous as what you posted, and we won't have to worry about whether kids can ride safely in car seats because in the future we're leaving them that will be the least of their worries.

[matcom]

25. i'm grabbing the popcorn

although i agree with you 100%

sadly, i expect you (and I) to be jumped on but i don't weep for families who "have" to buy bigger cars because they "have" to procreate the masses

[theHandpuppet]

36. Yes, and no matter how hard people try to deflect the issue

... the original post is a perfect example of the greater issues we're talking about here.

[Pepperbelly]

26. if they have the child ... what are they supposed to do?

You grew mighty defensive over that question. It is too late for them to worry about populationj control so what should they do?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. I chose not to have children

because of overpopulation. My husband, who was married before, had two. We decided not to have children together.

Though I believe everyone should be able to choose whether to have children or not, it does concern me when people choose to have large families in this day and age. Overpopulation is the main cause of many of our problems, I think. But how do you educate people about this so they decide to limit their families? I haven't come up with a good way yet, and I'd hate to have any population control imposed by the government, like they have in China.

[Skidmore]

45. I guess you are anti choice then.

I always thought pro-choice meant you could have or not have children, as you desired and according to your means. I love how people here just assume so much about my daughter and her husband. First, they have more than adequate means to support their children. Second, they want a larger family. Third, they would never deny you your choice not to have children.

[pitohui]

53. anti-choice appropriate past certain point

they are stealing from the limited resources of planet earth when they take more than their fair share

they made a choice to have this child, you admit it, because they are richer than others and they had a "want"

they do not care about the increase in resources used, for they can afford it and if the earth dies that much sooner, no matter, they don't plan to be around that long and anyway they are richer than others so they can secure themselves

a want is not a need

what if they wanted ten children, would you still be posting how unfair it is that they must buy a larger vehicle to accommodate their car seats

no, at that point, we acknowledge only the tacky people have ten children

we all draw a limit somewhere

[theHandpuppet]

55. Well there you go then

So its about what THEY want, what THEY can afford. It's about THEM. I guess socially responsible family planning is only for the poor, when fact is the richer the family, the more of this planet's resources they consume. It's not the poor family with three kids wrestling with whether to "upgrade" to an SUV or minivan, its YOURS.

"Supporting" children is so much more than what you can buy for them. It's putting your ego and yes, sometimes your personal desires aside to ensure that everyone's children will have a future on a planet worth living in. A planet whose resources are not depleted, whose blessed myriad of species are not driven to to extinction, whose forests are not decimated to make way for even more billions of humans.

Yes, that's the choice. (If those people who truly want large families would ADOPT even one among the millions now waiting for loving homes -- now there's a choice I truly respect.) Everyone has a right to make their own choice(s) -- just don't expect me to respect all of them. Just look at where the biggest opponents to family planning come from -- the RW and the corporate world. Both need increasing numbers of followers and consumers to survive, and they don't give a damn what the eventual costs might be even if it means leading this planet down a road of self-destruction.

Y'know, sometimes I wonder why my partner and I, who have no children, even bother. Yes, we could afford to live a more self-indulgent lifestyle and sometimes its even fun to fantasize about it -- that is, until its time to direct our energies and monies towards yet another project that might ensure a better future for all children, everywhere. But what the hey -- maybe we should just say that if we can afford it and want it, to hell with the rest of you and the planet your children will inherit.

Here are the facts: http://www.populationconnection.org/

[Skidmore]

59. And your response is very much about

you, isn't it? Apparently, any number of children over zero is too many. I strongly suggest that you cease making assumptions about others' motivations or means. I think you'd be surprised to learn that you are way off base if you knew all the facts.

[theHandpuppet]

62. No, its about the planet

And how we must all share the responsibility for its future, whether we have six children or none at all.

You said, "Apparently, any number of children over zero is too many." Yet another exaggeration meant to deflect the argument for family planning and not worthy of a further response. YOU were the one who brought up their means and motivation, not me.

[kestrel91316]

140. It's about accepting responsibility for the decision to ..................

procreate beyond replacing oneself.

I don't like to hear moaning about having to get a bigger, more expensive car by people who PRESUMABLY have enough education and common sense to limit their family size if they wish. If they don't wish to limit their family size to two, then they really need to not complain about the logical consequences of that choice.

After all, nobody FORCED you to get pregnant and have that third or fourth child, right?

Edited to add sentence, correct spelling

[eek MD]

52. amen.....(and i'm not even religious)

Choosing to have a whole bunch of kids is a huge waste of resources. It's hugely unpopular on here, but it's true.

Personally I think we should provide tax breaks to those of us who make a choice not to waste the planet's resources. Instead, people who make the decision to bring a "litter" into the world get a nice big tax credit for it. :)

[SmokingJacket]

117. I have kids, but I mostly agree with you.

It's idiotic for me to get a tax break. Of course, I love it, and use it, but still -- what a waste. Put the money toward care for poor children or the elderly. If I couldn't afford to have them, I wouldn't have had them (that's why condoms were invented).

On the other hand, rewarding people for *not* having children is a creepy idea: it basically means that children are an unwanted burden on our society. For many people they are, but I wouldn't want that to be official policy.

The obvious solution is to massively tax unrenewable resources. No one wants to go that route, though. I daresay my family (with our single small car, foot-commute to school and work, no air-conditioning, no television, limited plastics use, home garden) use fewer resources than many childless couples.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

81. Bravo!

:applause:

[Retired AF Dem]

106. The planet has done a fine job wrecking itself

long before humans, suv's and minivans came into the picture.

[Mr.Green93]

136. If not for illegal immigration the US

would have a declining birth rate. What is your stand on illegal immigration?

[greatauntoftriplets]

28. Which triplet should we have offed????

:shrug:

[theHandpuppet]

32. Don't be ridiculous

That is not the kind of situation I'm talking about and you know it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

33. Then please don't make such broad brush statements.

They are ridiculous.

[theHandpuppet]

35. No, they're not

And until we start facing this problem and stop worrying about not stepping on the toes of people who choose to have large biological families, I really find it hypocritical to hue and cry over issues like global warming, peak oil, pollution, destruction of the environment and depletion of resources. I'm not going to assuage anyone's guilt over why having more kids means they just HAVE to have a bigger car, house, et al.

People who give a damn about population control actually CARE about the global future we are leaving to these future generations of human beings.

[Psychmd]

30. Watch what you say

My partner and I have 4 kids. A 15 year old, a 4 year old, 2 year old and a 9 month old. All were adopted out of the Foster care system. Some of us are trying to care for the kids already in this world that are cast away by their parents or the system. With that said, there is no car that I know of that seats six, three being car seats. Unfortunately, a mini van is necessary for my family. I too wish they would make a hybrid version of a minivan. Just thought I would share.

[theHandpuppet]

34. And I'm not talking about adopted kids, either

Y'all know exactly what I'm takling about, so don't bring up issues like triplets or adopted kids. I have nothing but the greatest respect for those folks who have brought adopted/foster children into their homes.

My post was directed at folks who choose to have large biological families and in reponse to the original poster, who so aptly illustrated how having large families can make major changes in lifestyles, the choices we make and how those choices affect us as a whole, globally.

[Psychmd]

86. I agree with you

Thats why we decided not to bring any biological kids into this world even though we had the means and opportunity to do it. we focused on the children already here and who needed a family.

[ultraist]

41. You adopted four children?

:yourock:

[Psychmd]

82. Thanks

[Cats Against Frist]

87. No, thank YOU

:yourock:

[Psychmd]

89. Love your screen name btw

[okieinpain]

66. and who will get to choose.

[theHandpuppet]

71. It's an individual choice, of course

All you can do is appeal to folks' sense of social responsibility and hope they set their selfishness and egos aside long enough to realize that family planning is a vital part of ensuring a decent future for ALL children.

[okieinpain]

126. ok, i can agree with that, and I'll agree with the tax credit for not

having kids. they should make it double the standard child deduction.

[knitter4democracy]

91. It doesn't work perfectly, though.

One of my best friends had a third child last year--and they were on birth control. She and her husband had a serious talk about whether to keep him or not and finally decided that they weren't comfortable with abortion. She is the biggest environmentalist I know, and she had a tough decision to make. Now they have three beautiful sons, and while things aren't perfect, I respect their decision because it is about choice.

Pro-choice goes both ways, respecting both the choice for abortion and the choice against. A fundamental part of human rights is a woman's right to decide about birth control and whether to keep a baby or not.

Enforced population control is evil, and there's no other way to make it work as perfectly as you envision. I agree that the Earth's resources are strained and that we're in a bad way, but I'm not comfortable with enforced abortions once a woman's hit her number of alloted babies, and I'm not comfortable with someone else telling any woman what she can and cannot do with her body.

[Psychmd]

101. very well stated

You make a great point

[eek MD]

105. I haven't seen anyone advocate Enforced population control.

Nobody's saying we should force people to limit how many kids they can have. Gotta love reading things into the conversation which aren't in there.

Being pro-choice means you have a choice. Even though it may be a self-centered one in many cases. :)

[knitter4democracy]

130. But the only way population control really works is through force

You're acting like the OP's daughter is some breeding cow with no choice, arguing that she should've decided to use Planned Parenthood to limit the size of her family. I was trying to say that they might have used birth control and then faced the decision to keep the baby or not by deciding to keep him or her.

How is the choice ever not selfish? I had children because I wanted them. We tried for a year each child to have them. If I had decided to abort a child, how is that not a decision based in my self-interest. What? Women get abortions for the good of the country? :shrug:

[eek MD]

135. Urging people to think of the planet before their own interests....

Urging people to think of the planet before their own WANT (Note, i did not say NEED) to raise a child is NOT force.

Nobody NEEDS to bring a child into the world. It's a personal decision. There's no limit as to how large your family can be. If you want 20kids, you can do it. Is it wasteful of resources? Absolutely.

If the world's population was dying out, and we needed more and more children to keep the human population alive, breeding like rabbits may be a good thing. (Unless you think that the earth might be better off without humans, which has some merit considering the harm we do)---When the earth's population is 6.5billion the earth doesn't have a NEED for large families.

If you bring a LARGE family into the world without thinking of the resources that those extra people will consume, that IS selfish. You have every right to do it if you want, but I have every right to think it's selfish. What's considered to be a "large family" may be debatable, but the 6.5billion number just increased by a thousand plus in the time it took me to type this. You're contributing to that.

Thinking of the planet over your personal WANT is NOT selfish. You could just as easily adopt one of the many children who are looking for good homes if you had a WANT for another child, and that would NOT increase the earth's population.

[knitter4democracy]

144. Urging still won't bring about the numbers change you want.

That's why I said that it would have to be by force in order to be truly effective. Would making all forms of birth control free, including surgeries, help? Sure! Would having curricula in school encouraging zero population growth help (btw, I used to get that stuff in the mail when I taught, including the essay contest forms)? Sure! Is it going to get the numbers down where you'd like them? Probably not.

I don't think I said that thinking of the planet first is selfish: I said that women don't tend to use birth control and get abortions for the sake of the planet. Maybe some do, but that doesn't ring true with my experience.

Btw, adoption isn't easy. It takes tons of money (more than actually giving birth does), and many agencies will turn middle-class parents-to-be away for not earning enough or whatever. It's happened to many of my friends and their family members. That's why many turn to foreign adoptions, but even those cost many tens of thousands of dollars once you add it all up. Fostering is an option, but it's not as solid, legally, and many aren't comfortable with that.

[kestrel91316]

141. We just want folks who deliberately have more than two kids to

accept responsibility for their decision and not whine about how HARD it is to cope.

Nobody forced you to have that extra child. NOBODY.

[knitter4democracy]

145. Then don't whine about how much your coffee costs.

Seriously, the OP is a concerned grandma who is shocked at how much all the stuff costs these days. If any of us are whining about that, and we are, so sue us. It's a forum where we can rant and talk about what we're concerned about.

Nobody forces you to buy anything, so then don't complain how expensive food is or how much gas is or anything else. Apparently, no one can complain about their choices here. :eyes:

[Retired AF Dem]

107. Like my mom used to say

I have become pregnant on every type of birth control.

[knitter4democracy]

131. I have a good story on that--and it's true!

One of my friends in high school dated and fell in love with a very nice girl at college when we were all freshmen. She was on the pill because she was anovulatory (didn't ovulate), and her doctor told her that he thought she would be infertile. Nevertheless, they decided to use condoms to be safe, as they knew they were getting married but didn't want to have children while they were in college.

One day in spring, she was having the most awful abdominal cramps, finally going to the ER that night. The nurse asked her what her due date was, and the girl laughed, saying she wasn't preggers. Yeah, well, a doctor and a fetal doppler monitor that picked up a good, healthy heartrate convinced her otherwise. You can imagine what the phone call to my friend was like.

A few hours later, she delivered a healthy, beautiful baby girl. Now, I'd seen the mom when she was preggers, and there's no way she looked pregnant at all. She was used to going months without a period and so didn't consider that a sign or anything, and apparently the baby wasn't very active at all. The mom only gained 15 pounds, but she was a frosh at college and thought that was normal.

They're married now and quite happy, but it was a shock to all of us, let me tell ya!

[Ms. Toad]

119. Population control can include large families...

My parents had five children.

Three were adopted precisely because my parents (back in the 50s) wanted a larger family but did not believe it was responsible to add that many additional children to the planet, and were aware that there were children already in existence who needed homes.

We currently have a number of friends with large families, all by adoption.

Not every larger family is the result of not paying attention to the burden bearing additional children places on our shared resources.

[HockeyMom]

20. I managed being a Hockey Mom with a Saturn

Took my daughter to practices and tournaments with her equipment and our luggage in my Saturn. I also carpooled other players. A few times I even took the goalie with us. Do you know how much room a hockey goalie's equipment alone takes up? They weren't little kids then either, but teenagers.

It was actually very funny. PUSH, PUSH, PUSH. We always had a very time.

[wellstone dem]

29. I have a toyota matrix

which I think could fit 3 seats in the back. Every adult that rides back there talks about how comfortable it is. Doesn't get nearly as good mileage as my corolla gets, but I have gotten 29 with it. (I think the brochure said it would get 32 or 34, but my daughter keeps opening the sunroof.)

[City Lights]

38. What about station wagons?

They have three seats.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

39. My old Taurus wagon has an additional 2 in the cargo area. It seats 8. n/t

[LeftyMom]

109. Can't put carseats in the rear-facing seat

and since they have a weight limit most kids only fit back there for a few years after they outgrow thier boosters. Assuming they don't get carsick.

In any case the milage of large wagons with 3rd row seating is pretty similar to minivans but minivans do better in crash tests and hold thier resale value better. Myself, I'd get the minivan, even though I do love my wagon.

[City Lights]

115. I didn't realize carseats can't be installed in the rear-facing seat.

Why is that? I could understand not putting an infant back there, but figured as long as the rear-facing seat had the required seatbelt, toddler or booster seats would work.

As far as the weight limit in the rear-facing seat (100 lbs.?), my two kids, 13 and 11, haven't ridden in a booster seat in years, and neither weighs more than 90 lbs.

I have no gripe with minivans nor people who choose to drive them. My gripe is with people who claim there is no way for a family to get by without one.

[LeftyMom]

116. They aren't tested that way

The crash tests are done with a forward facing bench seat that's moved forward at speed and then stopped. Since they aren't tested in rear-facing seats, manufacturer's instructions forbid them. As such installing a carseat in a rear facing position is generally illegal (since most carseat laws require the seat be used in a manner consistent with the manufacturer's requirements) and negates liabliity of the manufacturer should the seat fail in an accident.

The recomendation on booster seats is that kids should use them until they pass the five step test.

http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.pdf

When a child can do so varies from child to child and vehicle to vehicle, but generally children should use boosters until they're at least 8 years old and 4'9". Most kids would have only a few years where they'd fit in a rear facing seat with a weight limit (such as some wagons have) after that. There are other rear-facing seats designed to fit adult-sized passengers, but I've only seen them in VW vans.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. It depends on the ages of the children. I had a minivan for my biz, but

drove sedans for my two sons. There is 3 1/2 years between them, and there was very often a third, a friend of either one of my sons. I also had a one point a Suburu wagon, with no problems at all. I still have a Ford Taurus wagon that seats 8, but I very rarely use it, and in fact, now that they're teens, I drive an Acura Integra. It's so liberating.

[BiggJawn]

43. Oh, please, anything BUT a Minivan!

Cheaply-engineered pieces-of-shit. The American answer to the East German Trabbant.

Sure, they don't drink the gas that thirstily, but once they get about 50,000 miles on them, they get about 50 miles to the quart of lube oil. Cardboard engines. I was shocked when I started noticing the number of Minivans I see that are about 5 years old and puffing enough blue smoke out the ass to smear the following car's windshield...And the bodies rust through by the time they're 10 years old...

Cheap to buy, but then they eat up your kid's college fund with maintenance.

[Retired AF Dem]

108. I have a 94 Dodge Caravan

I drive it about 50 miles a day. No blue smoke and 200,000 miles on it with very little maintenance.
on edit
And no car payment :)

[BiggJawn]

118. Yeah, yeah...

I hear ya...Why, just last week our local paper had a feature about several local residents who've gotten 200,000 miles plus from their cars.... None of them were Mini-Vans, though...

I KNEW I shudda put "YMMV" in that post!
:D

[lynne]

143. LOVE my Caravan!

- We got a Dodge Caravan mini-type and loved it so much we then went and purchased a larger Ply Voyager. Both were used - both well kept - both with a good number of miles - and both reasonably priced.

Our three kids are older so I don't have to worry about car seats any longer but now am having to transport friends and in-laws and sports equipment, etc. with the family.

Would not go back to a smaller vehicle after the vans. It's great to be able to sit up higher and see where you're going.

[Cocoa]

46. your daughter and her husband made a choice

you can discuss whether they made the right choice, but there's no getting around the fact that they made a choice, which seems to be what you're trying to do.

And as I noted above, not everyone has that choice, which is important to acknowledge imo.

[Skidmore]

48. Whose getting around the choice they made? I made a simple

observation that mandatory seating requirements make it impossible to seat more than 2 children in the family car if it is a sedan, particularly since small children can only be seated in the back seat. Now how has this devolved into a discussion of what reproductive choices my daughter and her husband are entitled to make rather than a discussion of mandatory requirements versus environmental concerns, I don't know.

[Cocoa]

50. you said there's "no way" a family can get by

I know firsthand that a family in fact can get by without any vehicle at all.

I don't know about anyone else, but that explains how I reacted. :shrug:

[Skidmore]

54. Perhaps you can get by without a vehicle in a city with good

mass transit. Try it in rural America.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

76. I did it

I lived in rural America with a child and no car. Did that for about a year. It was not fun at all and was a lot of work and headache but as a single parent I could not afford a car at all so I did what I had to do to get to work or the grocery store etc. The issue I see with this thread are all the "it is Impossibles" It is not impossible. It's difficult, it's inconvenient, it's a pain in the ass but it's not impossible. That is part of the problem with today's society. "Oh my God it's just impossible for me to x so I have to have/do Y". No, no you don't. You just don't want to do x. That is a choice, not a must. And it's usually one of convenience. Citizens are not willing to do much of anything unless it's comfortable and convenient for them.

[pitohui]

56. same here

when a falsifiable claim is made people challenge it

[marions ghost]

93. of course you realized that 'reproductive choices'

is a logical subtext of your topic, especially on a political website in these times of extreme population pressure. Your daughter obviously is 'entitled' to her choices, and others are entitled to comment on them in a public forum. It would help if you'd consider another perspective. For many people, having three or more birth children is seen as a real extravagance. I'm afraid that is the reality we're living in today. And I agree with the poster who said that in the future, whether those kids and their kids will have big cars or not will be the LEAST of our worries.

[wtmusic]

97. well-stated

and I don't feel it's out of line to bring up overpopulation here. The notion of "having" to own a minivan, by most of the world's standards, reeks of conspicuous consumption.

[Lannes]

47. Have they looked at the Ford Freestyle?

Its about the size of a family sedan but can hold up to seven

[pitohui]

49. that's their problem

birth control is cheap

they made a choice to have 3 kids in a world where each american kid uses 40 times the resources of a kid in africa

they want an unfairly large share of earth's resources, they should pay

no pity here

[JanMichael]

51. No, not a mini-van, they need, must have, are dying for, a Hummervee!

Criminy.

[yvr girl]

57. Depends on how large your family is

If you have only 1 or 2 kids, you're fine.

[gollygee]

67. Yep. One kid here. Sedan. No problem.

I have a lot of friends with only one or two kids who have bought minivans claiming they need it because of car seats too. :crazy:

[Mr_Spock]

58. Yeah, we had to walk everywhere as children because we couldn't drive

C'mon, the car seats are small enought to fit in any car - personal experience speaking here. I know this is a joke thread but it sure does exemplify the simple-mindedness many Americans like to display.

[htuttle]

60. LOL! Oh, you'll be able to keep your minivans allright

But you just won't be able to afford to go anywhere in them.

However, if you open the side door and build a lean-to on the open side, it makes a dandy shelter. Really top-notch.

[Cocoa]

61. funny you didn't say they lived in rural America

so in addition to the unstated assumption that all young families can afford to buy a minivan, there was the unstated assumption that no young families have access to public transportation.

Maybe your unstated assumptions are the problem.

[Hope springs eternal]

63. Your making an even larger point...

Kids, in all fascits of life, take up too much. And way more than they need to. Back in the day, 5 kid families could use a old-style Bronx apartment. It can happen today too. But people choose not to.


Kids can't be coddled all the time. People need to suck it up and realize that they'll be fine.

[Skidmore]

73. Kids in our society do take up too much because our nation

has demanded a risk-free environment for them to grow up in. Hence, the large expensive car seats that are MANDATED. BTW, adults suck up more resources that kids do. How many adults do you see purchasing energy sucking toys and gadgets. Kids suck up only what adults provide for them.

[City Lights]

99. The required car seats come in a variety of price ranges.

And some are bigger than others.

[wtmusic]

77. the amount of toys kids get is ridiculous

'toyflation' is out of control. If kids don't get 15 toys for Christmas they feel cheated.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. I completely agree on that point

My nephews literally have a whole basement full of toys and they get another pile every Christmas and every birthday.

[Montauk6]

70. In areas with great mass transit, such as NYC, you manage.

[TroubleMan]

72. You're kidding ....right?

I got two kids and another on the way. I just bought a new Chevy Aveo....about as small as you can get. I haven't had any space problems. Before that I had a Mazda Protege. I can fit the kids in no problem.

My wife has a PT Cruiser, unfortunately, but we were thinking about getting something smaller. It's probably about the same size as a mini-van, but she never uses all that space.

[wtmusic]

74. safety and convenience are also issues

as an older Dad getting small kids in and out of a minivan is MUCH easier than a sedan, mileage is not bad, and minivan is heavier and therefore safer.

So have at me. I'm raising two politically-aware, socially-responsible kids. I work out of my house and so this minivan sits in the driveway while your commuting Ford Focus is dumping sulfur dioxide into the air.

unapologetic minivan-owning father of two

[GodHelpUsAll2]

84. Key word

convenience. It's what's easier. And this is after all America, the country of citizens that are all about what is easier for us. The least effort, the better.

[wtmusic]

88. exactly

and when you give up that dishwasher, that lawnmower, that hairdryer, that...

please feel free to lecture me about convenience. :eyes:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

95. I'm

not lecturing anyone. I'm pointing out the real issue at hand. People are claiming they HAVE to have this or that and that life is impossible without it. I simply pointed out that was not the case. You however went straight into defense mode. We all have things in our life that make it easier. Myself included. Difference is, I do not try and convince anyone that my life would be impossible without them.

If you want 5 mini vans and 3 SUV's knock yourself out. Just don't claim you HAVE to have them because life is impossible without them. Because when you do I will point out how it is not. That's all.

[wtmusic]

100. My bad

I apologize. Took it the wrong way, and you're right. :thumbsup:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

103. No problem

Happens all the time.

[wookie294]

96. I don't own a dishwasher, lawnmower or hairdryer

I lived abroad for a while. I got used to the local culture. When I returned to America, it struck me how much STUFF everybody owns and how pampered we are. Unnecessary consumerism creates alot of garbage and pollution. For example, do people REALLY need a Mickey Mouse watch? LOL. Think about the packaging for that kind of shit that sits in landfills. Luxury is great, but people over-do it, fer cryin in the beer!

[wtmusic]

98. agreed

and over-consumption is a constant fight in my household. Relatives shower my kids with plastic crap and I come off as an ungrateful beast for asking them not to.

[wookie294]

104. Yeah, I usually don't preach

Even though I'm preaching now!

My parents are very wealthy. The amount of CRAP they own is amazing. I usually keep my thoughts on this subject to myself. A person can look like a grinch talking the way I'm talking right now! lol. Can't win many friends in America by preaching on this subject. So, the consumerism ROLLS ON and corporations make fatter profits....

[knitter4democracy]

132. Me too!

Sorry for butting in, but I hear ya on the relatives giving our kids all that horrible stuff, only for me to re-gift it or donate it somewhere else. Hate that! :mad:

[toddaa]

75. Schwinn Bicycles

Remember them? When I was a kid, my mom never took me anywhere. I rode my banged up Schwinn ten speed everywhere. School, movies, little league games. You name it. We are raising a generation of obese children whose lives are run by Franklin planners and live in cities that don't let them walk, run, or bike to where they are going. The solution isn't bigger minivans, but smaller cities.

[Retired AF Dem]

110. And the pity is

Schwinn's are not made in the states anymore. I loved Schwinn Fastback I had as a young teen.

[wookie294]

111. I owned a Huffy bike as a kid

Huffy was an Ohio corporation for decades. It's now owned by a Chinese firm. As the church lady would say, "Well isn't that spaecial." At least the gays can't get married. LOL.

[Boomer]

120. Big adjustment up ahead

Yes, in a free society we all have choices, and forcing people to choose wisely is not politically or socially acceptable. So we're all going to have live -- and die -- with the future we have chosen.

As has been stated several times in this thread, to not much reaction, because of the "choices" people have made their children are going to have a very bumpy road ahead.

Gas prices will rise beyond the reach of even middle-class families (what few of them are still around), and those prized SUVs will be become mini-campers. The surburban McMansions will become unsustainable terriroties too far away from scarce resources. Food will be an incredibly expensive and scarce commodity as agrigulture yields plummet due to extreme weather damage. And fish will be available only from commercials farms because the oceans will have died.

[wookie294]

80. Fat America needs its big vans !!

All of us fat Americans need more space, more kids, more leg room, more STUFF, more Game Boys, more computers, more toys, more HOUSE, more plastic, more pollution, more garbage, more food, more Haldol, MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE!!!!

Television said so!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

92. Growing up we had a used Volvo station wagon

3 kids, we all played sports, and often toted the neighborhood kids whose parents were carless. Tons of equipment and we still manged. Volvos are still the safest cars around-and the old ones last forever. My parents had over 200K miles on theirs.

[progressivebydesign]

129. We have a mini van... it's great! They can be had cheaply, too

We have one because my husband has 4 kids, and he is a musician, and SUVs are ridiculous in price and in the fact that they carry virtually nothing! It's all design bulk..

Why do people hate minivans??

[bluestateguy]

133. I think they can get by, but a minivan is preferable

And I like minivans far more than SUVs.

My only problem is with people who choose to have kids and can't afford to raise them and/or won't make the commitment to being a parent.

[leftofthedial]

137. plus they'll probably have to live in it soon

[LVdem]

139. Have less children...nt