I was so overwhelmed by my first post response

[lynettebro440]

that I decided I needed to write again. I don't know if this is ethical but I really need you people's opinion on a conversation that I have been having with a work associate in CA, I live in the Midwest. We had conversed for about a year on simple matters and I felt he was a great mentor on helping me rise above and move better into my professional career. I had learned early on that he was a Bushite and a Christian and these had been topics that we once attempted to discuss over the phone with much heat erupting, so we have not talked about these topics till just recently. I want to share with you all (and I don't think this is unethical) because this is my response to his email to me. The email reflects comments made by him in the previous email he had sent me but it does not state his name so it's not illegal. I sent it to him about 2 weeks ago and after he read it he said he was going on vacation, so I don't know if I hurt our friendship by finally just speaking my mind and ending our religious conversation (because he was pissing me off and I didn't want to loose my cool). I need an honest opinion on whether I was too rough, not rough enough or is this the way that might be done in order to change a republicans view on jesus, war and other such topics.

I trust your opinion highly although I don't really know any of you (this is only my 2nd post). But please help me to understand if I'm going anywhere with my belief or if I just spent an enourmous amount of time only to have no change in a persons opinion. Am I on the right track, will my argument hold up? You be the judge. Here is the email, sorry for the length but I had a lot to say.

First, I won't even get into the fact that what we are doing in a war for any reasons other then them knocking on our backdoor is an excuse in my opinion but I know that you and I different completely on this belief so I'm not even going to go there. Killing anyone for any reason should not be condoned, your jesus is a perfect example, live by example, not by war.

I find this next statement of yours confusing:

"You are right that it is all about loving. But its not about our loving, its about the fact that God loved us. You are right that we should be taking care of one another and helping one another. But its in the context of what God wants and how He wants us to do it."

This statement makes no sense to me. It's not about us finding the love within ourselves, it's about god loving us and then what? God loved us so that's all there is or we can only really love people if it is about the guideline by God, this doesn't make sense to me.

My comment in regards to science was meant to reiterate what you had said to me in an earlier email. You said that science was not a proof and could not be used as such. I was just stating the point, you aren't going to use science unless it verifies what it is you are talking about. I still believe in evolution remember, so that was what that comment was about.

I disagree with this statement of yours:
"Please understand that there is no contradiction between what I believe as a follower of Jesus and what I believe that our nation is doing."

Personally, I think what we are doing in this country of ours is so far from what your jesus was teaching that your statement is incorrect in my opinion, yet, it is still your opinion and I am not going to try to get you to understand this at all. So I am not even going to bother, but let it be noted, we are as unjesus like now then at any time in the past, at least in my lifetime, and the leaders are jesus believers, so try making some sense out of that one.

This statement is humorous but noteworthy:

"To answer your question, yes, it has always been like this. History is filled with wars, people killing one another, trying to take over countries and property, raping and burning. All through history. I challenge you to find a time when these things never took place. Look in your own home as an example. Did your son and daughter fight when they were little? They are just like nations, but on a smaller scale. Acting out of selfish motives. Yes its always been this way and always will be."

So how is having beliefs in god been helping in this matter? You stated that this has been written, memorized and lived by belief, this belief (not a religion, you have been stating that alot) so if this way of life has been going on for 2000 years and we are still at war with everyone anymore, how has it progressed? It appears that it isn't progressing, it actually appears to be regressing. At least as my children got older they learned to set aside their difference and learned to get along by being mature. I don't seem to be seeing any of the people you voted into office being very mature but then that's just my perception.

OK this one I really don't understand: You said,

"You are trying to convince me that it should be this way or that way. That we should treat people a certain way. Those are noble things, but they DO NOT address the fact that we are sinners, and the price of our sin is spiritual death. BUT God has offered to make a substitutionary payment on our behalf if we will accept it."

Loving isn't enough huh? Caring, kindness, concern and love aren't really what god wants us to do because we are all sinners anyways, it's all about the end result huh? This isn't making any sense to me, did I miss something here? It's like saying, well all the people dying in Iraq really is the cost because you know, it's what it is. We are all sinners so this excuses us from trying harder? I don't get this logic at all, never have.

And the best one:

"God never intended for it to get confusing and segregated. THe message wasn't love thy neighbor as thyself. It was that we only can love because He loved us. He demonstrated that love by sending His SOn to die on the cross in our place as punishment for our sin."

I don't understand the logic of this sort of thinking, but not to be mean, I honestly can understand how the world has ended up like it has because of this non-logic. I'm sorry, but you complicate this way to much. It is one of the reasons why I left the church and religion to begin with. It's like trying to talk to a politician, it always has a different answer, and the answer that they give you doesn't make sense to begin with. He sent his son and we killed him and we continue to kill people because we are sinners, but we can't learn to love within ourselves because it's all about god loving us? I'm sorry, I accept my way way more then I do yours. God didn't want all of this folks. I seriously doubt that he did, but what you believe in is like "Well, what did you expect, we are a bunch of sinners" attitude. I guess what I would believed god to have wanted is for us not to be repeat sinners, for over 2000 years. If I was god, I would say to hell with all of us. We are idiots trying to make his way a hell of a lot harder then it's supposed to be. But then again, he did send his only son and we hung him out to dry. What the hell did he think we would be like. We have been doing it for over 2000 years and will probably be doing it for another 2000 the way that we are going. It's like people in religion are like people that never leave school. We ain't ever going to graduate doing it like we are doing it.

I know that we could fight this issue till hell freezes over, and I will be the first one who knows hells frozen doors because I'm not afraid if that's the final door. The difference between you and I is, I don't buy excuses for people's behavior. I never have and I never will. It is one of the reasons that I am out here by myself. This whole sinner bit got real old real fast with me. It's like telling someone they are a looser their whole life (and believe me I heard those words) so the attitude becomes well, why bother because I am a looser. You keep letting me know I am a sinner. Well you know what, I know that already, but all the life work at trying not to be doesn't make a damn bit of difference to religious people (or any god fearing people, let's put it that way). I know after talking to you that I have lived a good life, I have always believed what I believe for as far back as I can remember, none of the rules and regulations was making anyone change their behavior so I changed mine. I believe in love, I believe that it's about example not belief. I wouldn't necessarily say that you have any better shot then I do by your beliefs. To be honest, I think I have maybe a better shot, because I didn't pigeon whole the hole thing into one. I studied them all, and no matter how you don't want the answer to be this, they are all saying the same thing and if your god was smart he would also be saying it. You can't be holy unless you are a caring person. And your ideals are that we can't be caring because we are sinners. It is a no win battle here.

I have finally come to the conclusion that I am not so afraid of what I believe or how I live. I love all people, that is what your god wanted and that is how I live. I don't need all the confusion, I never have. I spent my whole life with people that bought the same rules and understandings as you, they also didn't bother to rise above the sinner mode, but because they believed it's all that matters. I can't be that way, won't be that way, and have finally realized that I'm OK with what I believe in. Thanks for helping me out with that one. I can honestly say I will stick to my convictions because I think I am a hell of a lot holier then the whole bunch of you put together. It's all about love, no matter who you want to give the credit to for being this way, I don't care what anyone says, they are all preaching the same thing, it's all about love. I still love you, actually I don't hate anyone. I want peace over war under ALL circumstances, I want maturity and respect over rules and government. I want people to know what it feels like to not be treated kindly and then I want them to figure out how to never be unkind like that again. These are all wishes, none of them will ever come true except for those that are close to me and listen to me. I won't back down on these convictions ever, I never have and I never will. I have been surrounded by religion my whole life and haven't met one yet that can convince me I am doing wrong. I will continue to love and you can find whatever meaning you would like or whatever name you want to call it and do what you want with it. I am going to stick with my simple loving life, and I'll see you at the gates. (which ones we will never know till the end). Love Ya:)

So what do you think:
Please let me know if I just ruined a friendship or not. Thanks.

[Why Syzygy]

1. Advice

Don't even try to be friends with whooshco worshipers, in the name of jesus, no doubt.

Take the professional mentor relationship as a valid avenue. Leave the rest. You're not going to change "minds". They don't have any. Deprogramming would be more appropriate.

Look how many times you wrote, "I don't understand this". Big clue. Don't try. Keep your sanity.

[lisa58]

2. I think you've got a real handle on it....

I don't know if you've ruined a friendship because that will be your "friend's" judgment, but if you want an actual bible verse that explains everything you just said it's:

God is Love - anyone who dwelleth in Love dwelleth in God and God in him.

It's in St. John's Gospel

It's exactly what you were trying to tell him. Love connects you with god, not god connects you witl love. God is always there - love isn't unless you allow it to be.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Personally, I think you did well

The guy has the concepts of Christianity all twisted, imho. Jesus' commandments were to supercede the ones of the Old Testament, and they were to be LIVED. If you just read the words of Jesus, you see that He said to live a life of tolerance, forgiveness, and love.

I've met some fundies like your friend, and have marveled at their emphasis on "sinners", using the "saved by grace" argument to keep from following the teachings of Jesus and to basically do whatever they want to do.

You may lose your friendship, or you may not. Depends on whether the fellow is willing to shatter his concepts on the Rock of Truth.

[Ravy]

5. Hit the nail on the head...

They think the words "I accept Jesus as my personal savior" are enough for salvation. IMHO, to accept Jesus is to try live the way HE asked you to live. Words aren't enough.

[lynettebro440]

4. In one email

he honestly was trying to get me to see that fighting the "brown people" is what god would want. In every email I have maintained it's all about love. It's about loving yourself and then it's an automatic to love others. He couldn't see it. I just finally had to unleash.

[Ravy]

6. I wonder if he knows where Jesus was from. (n/t)

[julialnyc]

13. What color does he think Jesus was?

You did a great job, but some people (like your friend.......... and some of my family!) won't back down.In my families case I think it has more to do with the swallowing the pride that they were wrong all of this time (religious (in their follow the leader sorta way), stubborn with HUGE EGOS)

[skids]

7. With freinds like these...

...you certainly don't need enemies.

This guy is deep in the mire. Maybe he knows he is doing it, or maybe he just does it out of habit from his upbringing, but he is being extremely manipulative towards you.

His reasoning follows the typical pattern used by people who want to control other people -- by trying to sell you this "love comes from God" line what he is really trying to sell you is a concept of God as something far off, something which you have no hope of ever understanding or personally communicating with. Why they do this is pretty simple: if they can get you to think this way, then you will take your "orders" from outside -- they try to set themselves (or their priests or their doctrine or their church) up as a middleman between you and this God. So then they gain control over what God says to you -- they expect you to rely on them to interperate the divine.

If they bothered to look into Jesus further, they would discover that he was a Gnostic and firmly believed that God speaks from within each person, is not far off and distant, and doesn't need interperatation from a bunch of manipulators who sit around in a room trying to figure out how to twist scripture in a way that makes the people that they have brainwashed do what they want them to do.

[lynettebro440]

8. The reason I delved into this discussion with this guy

was because I honestly wanted to see what the heck was going on in the minds of our leaders. They believe this same crap and you are right, he did try to sell it to me hook line and sinker. But I told him up front I didn't believe in it, I believed it was about love and I had studied them all. He just kept coming back with versus. It was wild.

[hfojvt]

9. long distance friendships are a little bit like Sunday friendships to me

They are not worth much, and as one of my favorite songs goes "you've got nothing to lose. You don't lose when you lose fake friends." Not that he/she is, but may prove themself to be if your discussion ends a "friendship."

But you never know, any more than I know if you will be offended if I point out, as nicely as I can, that you keep writing "then" when you mean "than". Just something to watch for.

Also, I really do not want to weigh in on the discussion you are having, because you raised alot of points. Let me simply say that I can see points on both sides.

[kliljedahl]

10. I think you need to learn the difference between

an acquaintance and a friend.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[newswolf56]

11. Not to be harsh, but "friendship" has a very special meaning...

to me, and what I mean by friendship is utterly impossible with one who believes as your colleague does. Your colleague is therefore at best an acquaintance, at worst an enemy.

Given that "friend" and "friendship" are probably the two most over-used, inappropriately used words in American English, I should explain that to me the term "friend" is reserved for someone who is a genuine soul-mate: someone with whom there are few if any conversational limits; someone I would trust on mugger-streets or in cougar-woods and bear-country to watch my back; someone I would trust to use firearms safely and responsibly; someone I would trust to share a lifeboat without stealing my water-ration or cutting my throat while I was asleep; above all else, someone with whom I can spend several hours or even days without either boredom or awkwardness. Such people are rare in anyone's lifetime, and in this one realm I consider myself supremely fortunate: in my 65 years, I have been close with half-a-dozen such men and three such women. Too many of these people have died -- the real anguish of growing old -- but there is a married couple with whom I have been close for more than three decades and who remain my best friends today.

Bottom line -- and I apologize if this is painful, but you did ask -- I suspect the "friendship" you fear you lost never existed. In all probability your colleague was merely eying you as a potential convert to Christofascism. Therefore -- especially if it is vital to your success on the job -- there is surely nothing wrong with keeping the acquaintanceship cordial. But I personally would be very wary: in my experience, the Bible-thumpers are among the most treacherous people in the workplace, especially when it comes to torpedoing collective bargaining, ratting out union activists, or merely gaining advantage by backstabbing. In fact, in today's cut-throat workplace, I would question whether genuine friendship is even possible: the bosses fear worker solidarity more than anything else in the world, and they have already gone to extreme lengths to prevent it from happening.


Edit: typo.

[marions ghost]

15. well said, newswolf

the workplace is more like the set of "Survivor" everyday

[newswolf56]

16. Ever wonder what would happen if a real Marxist infiltrated...

the Survivor lineup and organized everybody into a functioning collective rather than play the game by the program's social-Darwinist rules? (Bet they'd ban that segment, Big Time!)

[MikeH]

12. My opinion about his god

I would like to say that the God that he and people like him believe in has a character basically like that of Adolf Hitler. I.e. his God is going to condemn people to hell for all eternity if, for whatever reason, they happen to miss out on accepting Jesus Christ as their savior in this lifetime.

It seems that, according to these people, a person's eternal destiny is a matter of first being lucky enough to hear about their Jesus Christ, and then to accept their Jesus Christ. We don't need to worry about the justice or fairness of that since we are all sinners and supposedly deserve to go to hell anyway.

It is interesting that both their God and Adolf Hitler are obsessed with purity and are offended by either sin or racial impurity.

I wouldn't worry about ending a personal friendship with somebody like that; I would hope that you can maintain a professional relationship (if it is to your advantage) even if he is not suited for a personal friendship.

I myself recently ended a 30 year friendship with a good friend who is a fundamentalist Christian, but was never "in your face" about it. Even though I respected and still respect him otherwise, it was more than I could accept that he was for shrub a second time, and we mutually agreed to end our friendship.

[lynettebro440]

14. Thanks I needed to know

that I'm not coming off as a raging bitch but I'm also not coming off as some roll over who believes the bullshit kind of person. You have to prove it to me to make me believe. And also, I used the friend word lightly, he's a person I have talked to for over a year, I don't think he would ever watch my back, I'm the only person who is going to be able to do that. I finally figured that one out of few years back.

[StefanX]

17. Lynette comes across as "the meek who shall inherit the earth" here

The asshole she's writing to and quoting comes across as Herod or Pharaoh.