Founded on "christian princilpes"?

[SHRED]

What do you refer to as a resource and what do you respond when the wingnuts claim this?

I tend to respond with, "Yeah...ask the Native Americans and the slaves about that 'Christian Principle'".

[goodboy]

1. I go here: The Founding Fathers Views on Religion (theology.edu)

Introduction

Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.
Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity. However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."
Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.
Perhaps, to start, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit.
The early church summarized the Christian message in six points:

1. Jesus came from God.
2. You killed him.
3. He rose again on the third day.
4. He sent the Holy Spirit
5. Repent and be baptized.
6. He's coming back.

An individual who would not acknowledge this much of the Christian message could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called a Christian. The founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message. In fact, they denied it.

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

[goodboy]

25. John Adams, 2nd Pres. of the US rejects the Trinity, Christ as a Deity

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072).

[NoodleBoy]

2. refer them to the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

That passage was written in a time when most of the Founding Fathers were still alive and active in U.S. government.

[Spinzonner]

3. Like hanging for witchcraft ?

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Well to be fair, one was pressed to death and several died in jail...

[0rganism]

11. What's fair about that?

:(

[Modem Butterfly]

16. They weren't all hanged

Just being snarky.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Here. I have been through this one before

This is a freeper mail on the topic that I responded to.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/gpv/1281.html

[Nomad559]

14. It was attributed to Andy Rooney

Andy Rooney Is an Atheist.

http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/index.php?title=Andy_Rooney

:)

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Well none of the other quotes held much water either. *g*

[0rganism]

5. 1796 Treaty of Tripoli -- ratified under president George Washington

has a clause reading

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Did you catch that?

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

This is going back to GEORGE WASHINGTON'S ADMINISTRATION

Let 'em chew on that for a while.

[brindis_desala]

6. Just quote them their revered Framers of the U.S. Constitution:

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh,


"...our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opnions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950,


As Thomas Jefferson said "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power for themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched."
Thomas Jefferson, Resolutions, 1803

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _
"Of all of the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny
of religion is the worst" -Thomas Paine

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god;
because if there be one he must approve of the homage
of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10,
1787

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical
establishments had on civil society? In many instances
they have been upholding the thrones of political
tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the
guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who
wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the
clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not
need the clergy." - James Madison

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support
itself; and when it does not support itself, and God
does not take care to support it so that its
professors are obliged to call for help of the civil
power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad
one". - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard
Price. October 9, 1790

[m_welby]

7. when someone tells me the founding fathers were all christians

...I respond: Well, they were all rich, white, male, land owners too. does that mean only rich, white, male, land owners can decide whats best for the entire population?

- that usually generates the deer in the headlights look and they go away (in fear of having reality slip into their delusion).

[whistle]

12. Not among the fundamentalists and republicans I talk to about....

...this. They either respond by saying right on or walking away. This is exactly the basis of the republican belief, the base that Bush talks about, the "haves and have mores"!

[m_welby]

34. well, the last fundie I used that on was of

...asian descent and didn't own any property (lived in the family basement), and certainly wasn't wealthy, so it sort of excluded him from democracy, he didn't care for that response at all.

though I understand that when one meets all of the criteria, then thats just fine by them.

[unblock]

18. good, except that they weren't even all christians

some where atheists and more were deists (believers in god but not subscribers to organized religions).

[ironman202]

8. actually the first immigrants were trying to escape state sponsored religi

[cosmik debris]

21. Were they trying to escape it

Or trying to establish their own version of it? Remember Plymouth was a "One Religion" community where failure to attend church on the Sabbath could result in punishment.

[rooboy]

10. This is good... according to Thom Hartmann...

who is a noted historian of the founding fathers, only TWO of the ten commandments were included into the Constitution: don't steal and don't kill anybody. He points out that EVERY civilization before and after the United States was founded has those two tenets in their rules.

If there is any basis for the American constitution, it was English law, which was NOT founded on Christian principles, and was established hundreds of years before Christianity even made it to England.

Ask the wingnut this question: if America was founded on Christian principles, then why isn't "you shall have no other god but me" in the Constitution?????

[ridgerunner]

26. Anglo-Saxon Law by Peter Williams Ph.D

http://www.picturesofengland.com/history/england-history-p6.html

[Mythsaje]

13. There is no mention

of Christianity in the Constitution.

There IS mention of the "God of Creation" but this is not a specific reference to the Christian God...more a theoretical Deity who might or might not be still involved in the Creation--see "Deism."

[unblock]

17. ask them why would people LEAVE christian nations to found one here??

i think every western european nation was explicitly (governmentally) christian.

people FLED these christian nations, many of them because they wanted to practice christianity in a way different than the way the government imposed.

why on earth would these people then create a nation that imposed its christian vision on its people? they wanted to be christian but to have their government out of the religion business altogether.

[More Than A Feeling]

19. Religion cannot be the basis of a temporal state

because God transcends anything human-made.

I also reference this Bible quote:

Matthew 4:8-10

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

"All this I will give to you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

End Quote

So, even the Bible condemns using religious principle as a basis for law, if you interpret the kingdoms of the world as countries, and giving the kingdoms to Jesus as making him ruler over them.

[Double T]

20. Who's Christian Principles??? What Are Those Christian Principles???

All of a sudden the Christians referring to the Christian Principles turn out to be not so Christian like.

[cosmik debris]

22. I think we are talking about

The Principles of the Spanish Inquisition. Those are the only true Christian Principles aren't they?

[Double T]

23. Self Delete-Duplicate

[Threedifferentones]

24. I remind them that Christianity had been a political

tool in Europe used by kings and tyrants for centuries in order to maintain their power, and that this would make the founding fathers VERY wary of having religion in their government. Then I ask them how many times the word God or its equivalent are used in the Constitution. The answer? Zero. Then I tell them to go look up some quotes online from the founding fathers, especially some from Jefferson and the Treaty of Tripoli.

And then I tell them to either

a. Learn to think

or

b. Shut the hell up

This generally does no good whatsoever in changing their delusional little minds, but it does make me feel better.

[immoderate]

27. I once called on of the TV ministries.

Their reverend had mentioned "the Christain principles on which this country is founded." I asked the guy who answered the phone if he could tell me some of the principles.

He thought for a long moment, and said, "Well, Jesus Christ is the king of the universe."

I said, "Are there any more?" He couldn't come up with one.

--IMM

[donco6]

29. King of the Universe, huh?

So, what, he's been ruling in absentia for 2000 years?!

:)

[oldcoot]

35. That is not surprising

I suspect that most of these individuals have not really bothered to read the U.S. Constitution or the Bible.

[GeekMonkey]

28. Facts are not welcome in religious discussions

at least not by the religious

[Lannes]

30. I believe this country was inspired in part by Christian principles

But the zealots on the right confuse "inspiration" with "legislation".

The separation of church and state doesnt exist for them,neither does the constitution as written.They are the biggest threat to our democracy and they dont even know it.

[immoderate]

33. Which Christian principles?

And don't include stuff that was known by every other civilization. I want them to be just Christian.

--IMM

[catzies]

31. I just say, "Repeating an old myth doesn't make it a fact."

Then I refer to the many Founding Fathers quotes such as George Washington's "The United States is in no way a Christian nation," and then I say, "The word 'God' is not in the Constitution," then I say, "Presidents put their hand on the Bible & swear to uphold the Constitution, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND."

[SaveElmer]

32. Here use this site...Americans United

They have a resource page (link below) for just this reason...has everything you need!!!

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources