Best case scenario: Say shrubbie is impeached...

[azoth]

and his cronies and co-conspirators are prosecuted along with him.

(remember, this is a Best Case Scenario)

How deep would they have to go to cut out all the corrupt GOP detritus and make the impeachment/changing of the guard worthwhile? Who could truly make steps to put this fubar'd black-mark-on-our-permanent-record behind us?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. We've made our bed... now we must lie in it for a time.... there is

no alternative.

[AndyTiedye]

3. But It's a Bed of NAILS, and We Didn't Make It. The Label Says

[wookie294]

2. America is rotten at its core

America has become a culture of lies and deceit. While Reich Wing American babbles about boobs on television, what's really destroying America is corporate and political crime that is far more pervasive than people think. There is NOBODY in the political landscape who can return America to a less dishonest and less ruthless nation. America is like the Roman Empire. We are destroying ourselves from within.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. It would appear so... but don't worry, the religious right has all the

answers... really. Honest, they do. Just ask them.

[vickitulsa]

10. Ahhh ... but Lincoln changed his tune about slavery later

when he was more experienced and wiser.

I disagree that the United States of America simply cannot be brought back up to the level of integrity the nation once had and the degree of trust and affection, loyalty and brotherhood, we citizens of the USA enjoyed from the rest of the world.

Hardy was right -- you can't go home again. BUT you can make a newer, even BETTER home right where you are now!

I've been thinking lately that we don't even need to root out every last vestige of the terrible crew that's been in the White House the last five years. What is necessary instead, IMO, is that the citizens of this fine country -- including and especially those who DID believe and trust GWB and his cronies -- now express their outrage at being betrayed and tricked. Then we all have to demonstrate that we will not be driven willingly into those voting booths again if we don't get better responsiveness and integrity from those whose names are on the ballots.

Not voting doesn't work; we learned that the hard way in 2000. But voting as things are now won't work either unless some major changes are made. I signed up at VerifiedVoting.com some time ago and continue to follow developments re the voting machine trickery. It's ironic that the very citizens who represent W's most solid base "out there in heartland America" are also people who do NOT tolerate being tricked and cheated by one they trusted very well at all. Once they face the sorry facts, they can be the strongest force for good and for a changing of the guard in the White House we've seen in the past couple of decades!

The very same people who once approved of W so much they would have been willing to install him in office for life are the ones who will feel most betrayed of all.

American-style democracy is an experiment, and one which is ongoing. We can't return to the goodolddays, but we can certainly create some good new days in the future. I for one refuse to be tempted to surrender and be pessimistic because that's the *one* way "they" can win.

When countries from Poland to France had fallen to the Nazi Reich and Great Britain stood alone to face down an evil empire that must have seemed unstoppable, those Tommies (with a little and then a LOT of help from their American cousins) showed everyone just how tenacious and tough they could be. If they had simply surrendered, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese now. They did NOT surrender, and the tide was turned, and the Nazi scourge was driven into the ground. Freedom flourished, and our nation had a huge part in that victory. We must remember our own history and take heart in these dangerous times. All is NOT lost! No one KNOWS the future, but everyone can have a hand in shaping the future.

So I say, put yer hand to the plow and be willing to sweat and even sacrifice if need be. We certainly can't win if we don't participate!


Quote below is from Dwight D. Eisenhower

[wookie294]

12. Lincoln did NOT change his tune

The Lincoln quote is from 1862 when the Civil War was raging.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say America was EVER a decent and honorable nation. From slavery to silent racism to Vietnam to Watergate to the massacring of millions of Native Americans to slaughtering people in Latin America in Reagan's secret wars to Dick Cheney -- America is mostly a dishonorable nation.

[Tim4319]

18. I find it amazing how america wants to forget about its pass,

but want to condemn other nations for their actions. They want us to forget about slavery, what was done to the Native Americans, and the Latin Americans. Also, the role this country played in Saddam's gassing of the Kurds. And, when someone brings it up, they will be labeled unpatriotic, and told to leave the country.

[vickitulsa]

20. I certainly don't want to ignore "America's" past.

In fact, if we forget our history, try to sweep any wrongdoing of our government or societies under the rug, we will be even more hated by many around the world than we are already.

But even if I don't consider how others see us, I believe in owning up to one's mistakes -- and that applies to governments and countries as well as individuals. The fact that Congress has seen fit to make very public apologies to Japanese families interned during WWII and Native Americans that were betrayed, lied to, stolen from, and slaughtered is a bit encouraging, don't you think? I mean, it's not really adequate reparation, but it's something at least.

Living in what was formerly Indian Territory where whole large chunks of land that belonged to native tribes was given away to a lot of wild-eyed Europeans in an amazing thing called a "land run," I have a pretty good grip on this aspect. I'm not so well versed in the abominable history of slavery in this country or what (if anything) our govt has done to apologize or make reparations.

Well, except for the interesting if little known story of the Tulsa race riots of 19, uh, 1921, was it? Or maybe 1923? There have been lots of articles in the paper about this in the last couple of years. Seems some construction workers dug up part of a mass grave when clearing a site for a new building, and it turned out to contain a shocking number of remains of African Americans hastily buried by the city after riots during which almost all of a thriving African business community downtown was burned to the ground and many people just "disappeared." There was a lot of talk about exhuming the remains and trying to identify individuals or at least assess the total number of bodies buried there, but then there were some objections from the African American community about that. Finally it was decided that the remains would be left undisturbed but I think the city and the Northside leaders are planning a monument and memorial for that burial site, and historical preservation of it of course.

No, I don't want to forget the atrocities of the past, and I hope most Americans don't either. We have to remember "the times," but we can't deny that horrors were wrought. I always thought it was strange, even, that during the Revolutionary War, newly minted "Americans" fought against being taxed and kept as part of the British Empire; yet when the southern states wanted to break away from the larger "parent" nation during the War Between the States (Southerners often still call it the "War of Northern Aggression"), preserving our country as one nation was seen by Northerners to be the patriotic, righteous cause....... No one has explained this paradox to me.

But I've also considered that the United States at least has the courage, or whatever it is, to air its dirty linens and criticize itself in public way more than most nations do. Or am I being an idiot to see it that way too? :dunce:

[vickitulsa]

19. Beg to disagree. I'm not getting personal

but I don't understand your staunch insistence on viewing the USA as dishonorable -- or at least "mostly a dishonorable nation."

Likewise your stance on the Lincoln thing, Wookie. I watched an excellent History Channel program about Lincoln very recently and remembered the discussion of his views on slavery. While certainly his writings as well as his actions vis a vis slavery were ambiguous at best, in the research I just did for the last hour my understanding on the matter was confirmed more often than yours was.

One good example: '...it may be that the war changed Lincoln’s attitudes toward race — perhaps in his effort to preserve the Union, the "Great Emancipator" also began to emancipate himself.' --That from a university professor's review of this book:

Abraham Lincoln, Slavery, and the Civil War
Selected Writings and Speeches
Edited by Michael P. Johnson

It would appear Lincoln "waffled" on the subject of slavery, but when you research the issue extensively, it's hard to reach that conclusion. Rather he seems to have evolved in his thinking, while remaining ever the savvy politician who was adroit at writing speeches for public consumption to achieve his purposes. He may have written what you quoted in 1862 when the War Between the States was "raging," but that was nonetheless rather early on in the war. He wrote somewhat differently by 1865 when the war was pretty much over.

But what really concerns me way more than your take on Lincoln and slavery is your conviction that America is just plain rotten, no discussion necessary. Dishonorable is a very harsh thing to call an entire nation, whether you mean historically or currently or both. I would never assert that the United States has not done dishonorable things, but that doesn't merit labelling the whole country dishonorable. You think the U.S. did a BAD thing by waging war against Hitler?

Your untempered condemnation of the USA is way too dismissive and categorical, IMO. It's not, well, a "balanced" view.

Geez, my second day here and already I've been corrected and challenged, and I can't help responding. But as I said, I'm not getting personal. And I'm not just saying that -- I mean it! I've participated in enough online fora to have grown pretty thick skin. Believe what you will, it doesn't harm me in any way. But I love my country and believe it has much good to its credit as well as a promising future. Where it goes from here depends among other things on whether its citizens think it is "worth saving." Apparently you do not. I do! :)


Quote below by Dwight D. Eisenhower

[shraby]

5. I would say 95 per cent of the whole

Republican party in the house and senate and 75 per cent of the Democratic party in the house and senate if you really want to clean house.

[Stirk]

6. Impeachments could never cut deep enough to fix things directly.

But I'll tell you what it could do. It could wake alot of blissfully ignorant people up to the fact that government officials do not necessarily have our best interests in mind, and that they often put money ahead of duty and morality.

That would be a big step in itself.

[longship]

7. One thing to consider.

When you look at this scenerio, consider the required environment under which such an impeachment could take place.

In order for us to impeach before 2007 (when Dems could take over Congress) there would have to be a sea change in Repug control of their Congress-critters. The only way that is going to happen is if public opinion for impeachment reaches a ground swell. It can happen, but there will still be a core group of Repugs who would go down with the ship defending Bush.

Okay, so we've got the ground swell and the sea change and we're impeaching Bush and his cronies. We've got to get at least Bush and Cheney or we're just playing in the shallow water. Now, it looks like Rice is likely to go too. A lot of staffers are going to be implicated as well.

No matter how many cabinet members are ousted, Hastert is the next president. Unless one can get him caught in the mess too, which is unlikely. The presidential succession act tends to preserve the party in power. That's just a fact of life.

But Hastert would be under the gun. With the sea change necessary to bring about the impeachment, the new president would be under severe political pressure to govern in a true bipartisan way. Regardless, the Dems would undoubtedly retake Congress, but the Repugs would want the swing to be minimized. Hastert would undoubtedly grant a pardon to the impeached. This would place the Presidency back in Dem hands, unless Hastert didn't run again.

I leave it to others to speculate what an impeachment like this would do to the Repug party in general.

Now after 2007, it's easy. Impeach Bush and Cheney and we get President Nancy Pelosi.

[Greeby]

8. Can't wait

Considering the damage BushCo can and will do between now and the 110th Congress, I don't think the world can wait that long.

So, I guess, say hello to President Hastert

[kenny blankenship]

9. The evil that is Bushlerism did not appear overnight

and it won't be eliminated in one election or two and a few minor waves of reform that will come with them. Our system has ALWAYS included far too many privileges for concentrated wealth--too many avenues for influence and too many hidden checks on the sovereignty of the people. These were holdovers from 18th century European oligarchy, which ironically our "mother country" Britain and Europe itself have long since outgrown. Now we see this oligarchical tendency in our political body, like an once thriving industry that consolidates into a cartel, and the cartel thence into a monopoly, imploding into a neo-fascist monarchical cult of family and the "Fuhrer principle".
you can view Bush as "the Little Father" a benevolent dictator of royal blood, the head of his family which is at the head of all families, or you can see him as the harsh warrior, an individual selected by history and his own drive for mastery who alone can drive our national destiny forwards in a harsh and frightening world in which everything is under assault, including the concept of nationhood itself. He is either the genealogical culmination of the national character--or he is the radical exception, uniquely able to save the national character from its own weaknesses. These are your choices under Bushlerism. Some people no doubt experience their attraction to Bush in both ways. Whatever you can say about the elections of 2000 and 2004 being stolen it will remain the case that over 45,000,000 Americans were attracted to one of these two visions of Bush--as Czar or as Napoleonic Hero. And that in spite of all the evidence that the man is practically retarded.

Those millions of Americans will still be in need of deprogramming and the corporate power elite of America will still be in the driver seat, and still drilling Fascism into the heads of the people who voted for Bush or who nearly did.

[against all enemies]

11. Dream on. The House of Represenatives is Pukeville.

[Bouncy Ball]

13. Well, as bad as the current crop of repukes are (and they are VERY VERY

bad), there are even deeper problems. Capitalism is a perfectly worthy economic system, imo, but it has problems, just like any other system, and without some common-sense governmental checks, it really can be quite harmful to people. A lot of those checks have been completely eroded (or never put in place) in the last, oh, many years. LOL.

Also, there's the problem of corporations having too much of a hand in governmental doings. Unfortunately, I see this, to a lesser extent, even in my own party.

The press needs to, once again, be a free press. Yeah, that means no more talking heads drawing HUGE salaries, but I'd rather have a good press than that anyday.

We have societal problems that go even deeper than the current crop of repukes, in other words. The current crop just deepens and widens those problems to a mind-boggling extent. Getting rid of them would be a huge, healthy first step, but there would be much more work to do.

We are not a peaceful society, far from it.

[PowerToThePeople]

14. This guy is a true American.

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Care to share his name with us?

[PowerToThePeople]

16. Not sure, but he hunts elephants

[JerseygirlCT]

17. I don't think we could know

there are certainly human beings who continue, for reasons based in the past, to subscribe to the GOP. Even good ones.

I think there's been so much fear-mongering, and so many threats to those that stray too far out of the camp, that finding the true moderates again would not be possible until a significant portion of the current evil-doers was gone.

There are certainly problems intrinsic in the whole system, but a moderated tone, truly working in a bi-partisan fashion could still accomplish some good.

People are going to have to come to the realization that the current crop in power are bad news all by themselves. It can't be hammered in, it won't matter how hard. They have to wake up and smell the coffee all by themselves. How many then hit themselves on the forehead and move on with a better idea, I don't know.