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KitchenWitch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:12 AM Original message |
Give me some good arguments against a flat tax. |
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imenja (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:14 AM Response to Original message |
1. it favors the wealthy and overtaxes the poor |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 07:44 AM Response to Reply #1 |
18. How? How can it possibly be more unfair to the poor than... |
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imenja (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:02 AM Response to Reply #18 |
41. we don't have a purely consumption tax system |
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magellan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:17 AM Response to Original message |
2. Flat tax is a regressive tax |
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recidivist (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 06:28 AM Response to Reply #2 |
15. Most proposed "flat" taxes are progressive. |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:28 AM Response to Reply #15 |
23. But... |
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recidivist (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:02 AM Response to Reply #23 |
40. Partial agreement. |
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WCGreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:09 PM Response to Reply #40 |
78. Capital Gains are indexed for inflation even before they |
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PurityOfEssence (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:38 AM Response to Reply #40 |
113. "Double taxation" is a bullshit concept under current laws |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:09 AM Response to Reply #15 |
28. I proposed a progressive flat tax like this here a few years ago. |
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recidivist (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:08 AM Response to Reply #28 |
42. I agree. |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:37 AM Response to Reply #42 |
43. I suspect that 80% of the population would either break even |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:35 PM Response to Reply #43 |
88. Why don't you want millionaires to be taxed fairly? |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:23 PM Response to Reply #88 |
105. As I said in my previous post, |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:37 AM Response to Reply #105 |
112. You don't have to hammer anyone. The economic advantage of allocating... |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:32 AM Response to Reply #112 |
115. In order for me to respond thoughtfully, please give me |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:55 AM Response to Reply #115 |
116. An economist with a team of mathematicians and a couple days to spare |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:21 AM Response to Reply #116 |
117. 25% in the $100M bracket?!? Outrageous. |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:37 AM Response to Reply #117 |
118. Nobody makes earned income that high. High capital gains/dividend taxes |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:34 PM Response to Reply #118 |
123. I think we're in basic agreement, philosophically speaking. |
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cascadiance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:32 PM Response to Reply #115 |
126. Well, any one that argues that having high rates on the very rich damages |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:01 PM Response to Reply #126 |
127. Yes, it is clearly bullshit. |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 02:21 AM Response to Reply #126 |
130. The high rates before '63 were justified by the fact that it was |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:39 AM Response to Reply #28 |
53. I believe those numbers are out there |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:46 PM Response to Reply #53 |
106. "I believe that the rich are stealing from the rest of us." |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:38 AM Response to Reply #106 |
119. So how does a flat rate on all income over $X solve that problem? |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:15 PM Response to Reply #119 |
128. See post #115. Specifically: |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 04:23 PM Response to Reply #15 |
99. They're regressive by definition! |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:40 AM Response to Reply #2 |
31. This post references a sales/consumption tax. Not a flat tax. |
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Frederik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:20 AM Response to Original message |
3. Good for the rich, bad for the poor |
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Floogeldy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:26 AM Response to Original message |
4. Hey. What are you doing over here? |
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Trajan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:26 AM Response to Original message |
5. From The Pen of Adam Smith .... |
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pnorman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:46 AM Response to Reply #5 |
11. I have a Noam Chomsky CD that went into Adam Smith in some detail. |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:34 AM Response to Reply #5 |
25. Just for reference, that comes from Book 5, Chap. 2, Part 2 |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:25 PM Response to Reply #25 |
84. Right, becuase labor is already exploited by the capitalist system. |
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Tommymac (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:46 PM Response to Reply #5 |
66. Great Quote...thanks! |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:28 AM Response to Original message |
6. You get less revenue |
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KitchenWitch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:36 AM Response to Reply #6 |
7. My thoughts exactly |
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Snotcicles (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 06:23 AM Response to Reply #7 |
14. Poor people can't buy anything to write off because all there income |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:53 AM Response to Reply #7 |
44. Supply siders |
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Anarcho-Socialist (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:37 AM Response to Original message |
8. There wouldn't be enough revenue from a flat tax |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:34 AM Response to Reply #8 |
26. Option three |
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Tommymac (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:56 PM Response to Reply #26 |
67. This seems more like the reality |
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wli (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:42 AM Response to Original message |
9. regressiveness |
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KitchenWitch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:45 AM Response to Reply #9 |
10. Explain what type of scientific taxation system |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:44 AM Response to Reply #10 |
34. My guess is that a "scientific taxation system" would have us |
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wli (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:04 PM Response to Reply #10 |
75. even more vague |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:42 AM Response to Reply #9 |
32. Flat taxes are neither regressive nor progressive |
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wli (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:06 PM Response to Reply #32 |
76. depends |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 04:27 PM Response to Reply #32 |
101. Not so. The definition of 'regressive' is that the burden becomes |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 06:14 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. If that were true, there'd be no such thing as a progressive tax |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:25 AM Response to Reply #102 |
108. Not so. A perfectly progressive tax is one that leaves everyone |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 08:47 AM Response to Reply #108 |
111. So, in a perfectly progressive system, everybody gets the same |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:19 PM Response to Reply #111 |
125. "regardless of their contribution" is a right-wing way to look at it |
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KnaveRupe (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:50 AM Response to Original message |
12. Here's how to explain it so even a freeper can understand. |
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postulater (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 07:31 AM Response to Reply #12 |
17. Then Joe Millionaire takes some of the leftover that he couldn't spend |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 07:57 AM Response to Reply #17 |
21. Nice rebuttal. |
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Kathy in Cambridge (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:55 AM Response to Reply #17 |
38. Great post |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 07:56 AM Response to Reply #12 |
20. 25% is way too high of a number. |
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KnaveRupe (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:13 AM Response to Reply #20 |
29. Could you provide some links please? |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:34 AM Response to Reply #29 |
30. Ah, the link request... Last refuge. |
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Kathy in Cambridge (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:58 AM Response to Reply #30 |
39. You've been here long enough to know that you have to back up |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:12 AM Response to Reply #39 |
46. You've been around long enough to know plugging the words.... |
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Kathy in Cambridge (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:29 AM Response to Reply #46 |
50. And that support is from right-wing sources that aren't condoned on DU |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:39 AM Response to Reply #50 |
54. Not all of them... |
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KnaveRupe (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:25 PM Response to Reply #54 |
83. You're joking, right? |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:33 PM Response to Reply #83 |
86. Try this one... |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 04:08 PM Response to Reply #86 |
97. Wikipedia has been taken over by the ideologues and is thus not a valid |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 04:12 PM Response to Reply #54 |
98. Your cite is to a right-wing source |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:04 AM Response to Reply #30 |
45. No reputable economic analysis has pegged the flat tax number that low. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:14 AM Response to Reply #45 |
47. Ditto back at ya on the 25%. |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:28 AM Response to Reply #47 |
49. Pardon me, I never quoted 25% |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:52 AM Response to Reply #49 |
55. You could do the math yourself. |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:25 PM Response to Reply #55 |
63. Snarkiness is not constructive discussion. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:59 PM Response to Reply #63 |
68. Complicated? How so when the whole point of a Flat Tax is to remove it? |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:48 PM Response to Reply #68 |
73. You asserted 3% without attaching an economic defense. That's why. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:18 PM Response to Reply #73 |
80. Not that it matters... But, Illinois has a 3% flat tax. |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:36 PM Response to Reply #80 |
89. I've lived in one of those states you listed so I don't need to ask. |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:38 PM Response to Reply #80 |
90. Kansas income tax is pretty flat too |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 03:11 PM Response to Reply #90 |
95. Please refer to my post #27 for State and Local numbers. |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:00 PM Response to Reply #47 |
58. I just went around with Prof Gac on this a couple months ago |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:45 PM Response to Reply #58 |
71. What about corporate welfare? |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:24 PM Response to Reply #71 |
82. corporate income tax brought a mere 207.3 billion in 2000. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:35 PM Response to Reply #82 |
87. Oh, yeah... I forgot Corporations don't make any money. |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:32 AM Response to Reply #82 |
109. It's noteworthy that income from corporate tax and outgo for |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:20 PM Response to Reply #47 |
122. Here are rosy estimates from www.fairtax.org. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:24 AM Response to Reply #45 |
48. Have fun... |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:37 AM Response to Reply #48 |
52. Thank you for the citation |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:54 AM Response to Reply #52 |
56. By that argument... Since we haven't ever had a flat tax rate in the US |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:14 PM Response to Reply #56 |
62. You misinterpret. |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:45 PM Response to Reply #62 |
93. Oklahoma probably gets away with a low rate |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:55 AM Response to Reply #20 |
37. I've heard anywhere from 30% to 13% but never 3%. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:47 PM Response to Reply #37 |
72. No, it is a number which has been around since Anderson ran third party. |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:49 PM Response to Reply #72 |
74. Does it include the plethra of Regressive State and Local Taxes? |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:13 PM Response to Reply #74 |
79. So you're happy with the status quo? |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:23 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. Heh. Am I interested in the SQ? Not one iota. |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:31 PM Response to Reply #81 |
85. I say TAX 'EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT! |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 06:48 PM Response to Reply #85 |
103. I'd rather sort them out here on Earth. |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 03:00 PM Response to Reply #74 |
94. meat? meat? |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 03:13 PM Response to Reply #94 |
96. In time I probably will be. |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:10 PM Response to Reply #20 |
121. Do a bit more research please. Or point me to that study. (n/t) |
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UrbScotty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 04:27 PM Response to Reply #12 |
100. Hurting the poor more than the rich is also un-Christian. |
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sweetheart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:03 AM Response to Reply #12 |
114. Heres how to explain it so even DU can understand |
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indepat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 05:53 AM Response to Original message |
13. Are you going to play like payroll taxes are a tax and eliminate excise |
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recidivist (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 06:32 AM Response to Reply #13 |
16. Good question, but don't leave out the EITC either. |
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indepat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:36 PM Response to Reply #16 |
124. Agree EITC is just a form of welfare that should never have been in the |
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Hugin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 07:49 AM Response to Original message |
19. It would put a whole lot of accountants and tax attorneys out of business. |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:43 PM Response to Reply #19 |
92. So would progressive rates with no deductions. |
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Egalitariat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:07 AM Response to Original message |
22. You can tell from reading the posts here that most people |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:30 AM Response to Reply #22 |
24. We talk like that because we've seen it all before |
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Kathy in Cambridge (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:52 AM Response to Reply #22 |
36. Exactly-no grasp of the tax system or basic economic principles |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 08:47 AM Response to Original message |
27. We currently HAVE a Flatish Tax system on the whole. Read on.... |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:50 AM Response to Reply #27 |
35. 7 years old and it still says it all: |
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msongs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 09:43 AM Response to Original message |
33. The resulsts are about the SAME flat or current -> |
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Francine Frensky (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:54 AM Response to Reply #33 |
57. You really think attorneys and accountants would go away? |
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rurallib (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 11:29 AM Response to Original message |
51. to add my 2 cents |
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The Traveler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:00 PM Response to Original message |
59. Like most ideas |
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Pobeka (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:05 PM Response to Original message |
60. It would never fly politically, because the rich would pay more than now. |
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Francine Frensky (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:10 PM Response to Original message |
61. Mortgage interest deduction, charitable contributions, |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:09 PM Response to Reply #61 |
69. The deductions for children and other dependents are deal breakers too. |
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Francine Frensky (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 10:55 PM Response to Reply #69 |
104. What is funny is that people say "flat tax!" |
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hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:31 PM Response to Original message |
64. very simple argument |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 12:34 PM Response to Original message |
65. Utterly regressive |
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JanMichael (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 01:42 PM Response to Reply #65 |
70. I'd be all for it if incomes and wealth were flatter (Or FLAT). |
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WCGreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:06 PM Response to Original message |
77. Simple, the way our sytem is structure.... |
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1932 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-16-05 02:40 PM Response to Original message |
91. Do you know why we have, in theory, a progressive income tax? |
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fob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:39 AM Response to Original message |
107. How about this; The fiscal year budget is (at least supposed to be) |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:35 AM Response to Reply #107 |
110. That's basically how it worked originally |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:59 AM Response to Original message |
120. Here is something that cools well-off conservatives to the idea. |
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jzodda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:24 PM Response to Original message |
129. I hate flat tax |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Tue Apr 30th 2024, 03:47 PM Response to Original message |
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