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"What a Ballot Is" ~ Andy Stephenson

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:23 PM
Original message
"What a Ballot Is" ~ Andy Stephenson
The following was written by Andy April 29, 2005. It is a draft, about which he said, "Just putting thoughts on paper right now. So in case something happens to me, god forbid...I have it down for others in the future."

What a ballot is. It is not merely a piece of paper it is me...it is my voice. Each of us should guard it more than we would our most prized or precious possession. That ballot protects our other possessions. Without it you have no say. Over the last couple of years I have been adamant about the need for a voter verified paper ballot. It has been the driving force behind what I have done and will continue to do. To me, my ballot is the most sacred sacrament of the secular religion we call Democracy.

I have traveled around this country meeting with Election Officials such as Mischelle Townsend. I sent her into a tailspin when I put a camera in her face. Mischelle Townsend as you remember was the County Registrar in Riverside CO. Ca. Mischelle is a drippy sweet kind of woman but underneath beats the heart of a true viper. Mischelle has unwavering faith in Sequoia Voting Systems. She is a huge proponent of paperless DRE's. Where is Mischelle now? Well last I heard she was at home tending to her father-in-law's knee. She spent her last day at work holed up in her office with the door closed to avoid cameras. David Elliot is another viper. David was the head honcho over at NASED. He was the one person most responsible for allowing DRE’s to be approved for use. David was another really bad guy. He told me that he would have liked to have been able to talk less formally “without the camera.” I am sure he would have. But hey…I wanted to keep him honest. David retired from service to the state to attend to a “nervous condition.” Another piece of work was Scott Konopasek. Scott was the Registrar in San Bernardino Co Ca. Scott was the man responsible for DRE’s in two places, Snohomish WA and San Bernardino CA. Scott once remarked that Bev and I were waging “Jihad”, but not in a “Palestine Israel sense of the word, but in more of a Northern Ireland sense of the word.” Excuse me but WTF? Scott is now a “consultant” I worry when former elections officials become consultants. The one thing all these people have in common is an undying faith in paperless voting. I would say that they were all crooked but that would get me sued so I won’t say it. But I had no faith that they were protecting the ballot.

Now I know that I have gotten off track here and talked about all the bad guys in elections but there are people protecting your ballot. Some examples are Freddie Oakley of Yolo County California, Ion Sancho of Leon County Florida and Kevin Shelly and Julie Anne Kempf formerly of King County Washington. These people are examples of people working hard to protect our right to vote and in the case of Julie Anne losing their job in the process. I have talked here about the people but not ballots up to this point. There is a reason for that. The first group of people is out to get your ballot the second wants to preserve your ballot.

There are currently many definitions and thoughts on the subject of ballots. Some would argue that paper records or paper trails can serve the same purpose as a paper ballot. All legislation I see coming from Washington these days talk of Paper records/trails that are kept in a similar manner as ballots. They are to be the official record of the election and are to be used in case of manual recounts. As an example of how hard this would be, let’s look at Diebold’s VVPAT. A long register receipt type “paper trail” is printed. Granted it is better than what does not come from their DRE’s now but it would be very difficult to “hand” count. So why spend money on it, if it does not really do what we want it to do? It is similar but not the same as a ballot. Imagine a 75 year old trying to read the small type on that paper trail. Some, such as our first group of people would argue that an electronic version of the ballot is ok and perfectly acceptable. David Dill explains that voting on DRE’s is like handing your ballot to a man behind a curtain, telling him how you want to vote, he fills in your choices and you never see the ballot again. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Our ballot must be human readable we must be able to discern our own choices and not leave it to a machine interface. Now this is not always possible as in the case of the blind but there are technologies that help the blind to vote in secret that produce a ballot. Equipment such as Automark produces an optical scan or human readable ballot. The ballot is printed on a heavy weight 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with standard markings. Any human or optical scan machine can read these ballots and they are ideal for hand counts should the need arise.

Now there are many people that say we should be all hand counted paper all the time. In an ideal world we would do that. But realistically that is not going to happen. Elections offices in most jurisdictions if not all, are under funded. Elections officials struggle with tight budgets and in most cases do a damned good job with what they have. Not all elections officials are bad and many want to run good clean elections. Keeping the system honest is up to us. With proper auditing and truly random recounts optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all our votes are more precious than gold.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. I still think clay tablets would be better. Paper can be ruined
by water and fire.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. LOL!
Nice. Thanks for the chucle. :)
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. You must be a cuniform lover, as well!
:toast:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I wanted to be an anthropologist but
there was no childcare at Gombe.

:toast:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. BRAVO Andy Stehpenson! Thank you dear patriot.
Peace.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. thank you troubleinwinter for posting this!
Thank you Andy :patriot:

Nominated & kicked :kick:

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Back up there
:kick:

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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. Issue #1 restoring our democracy via IMPEACHMENT
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 03:27 PM by jarnocan
kick and http://vvlobbydays.blogspot.com/ ( I linked some of the info concerning andy here- felt it belongs here also)
I do believe this is the all encompassing issue.
If more and more of the truth comes out, via Rove's treasonous behavior and the DSM related stuff, perhaps the election FRAUD facts will surface and be more fully explored and explained. You know sometimes the media once it gets going; things can change very quickly- either way- but it could become a competition- to break out more NEWS. BushInc. deserves to be impeached for many things , including the fruadulent elctions!
If BU**SH**Inc. begins to go down I hope everything just breaks wide open. that is the best thing that can happen for our democracy, and our world.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Priority ONE, I'd say.
Visualize IMPEACHMENT...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL FROM OFFICE...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT, REMOVAL FROM OFFICE, AND INDICTMENTS...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT, REMOVAL FROM OFFICE, INDICTMENTS, PROSECUTIONS AND CONVICTIONS...

Priority ONE, folks.
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. true
Investigate, prosecute , IMPEACH , punish
in order to restore our democracy.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks. Remind me and I will put this up on my election reform site
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Posted it here
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Thank you so much.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Anything for Andy. :^)
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. great site and it looks good
like ANDY said "Let people know this is happening. Do what you can."
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Thanks. :^) Now if only I could get more people TO the site
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Andy Stephenson A Real Patriot...
Thank you Winter for posting this.
:grouphug:


:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: andy
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "winter"??? Most people just call me "trouble"!
Andy wrote it for all of us.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. well I do remember dzika calling you
"winter" and you sure aren't being trouble so..
How about TIW ?
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I thought we decided to call her double Trouble?
:grouphug:
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Cat_girl ! I have missed you...
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 01:23 PM by hiley
Sometimes she is double trouble, huh ?
I love how you fixed Andy's picture there.
The sun shining on him shows him angelic.
hugs,
hiley
:loveya:


:grouphug:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. And I miss all of you too especially Andy.
It is Andy that brought us together. :grouphug: I figure Andy wouldn't mind if I use that particular pic of him. He really liked that one.

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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oh cat I think Andy would love how you are using the picture..
Andy did bring us all together and he brought me right out of my shell. So did all of Wrinkles! I cherish all of you for it too..
Andy looks so happy in this picture and it is just priceless..
Hiley
:grouphug:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. Andy brought us together.
:loveya: "The Wrinkles Commune"...what a priceless gift!

"If we have no peace it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other."-Mother Teresa
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nominated n/t
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you!
David Dill explains that voting on DRE’s is like handing your ballot to a man behind a curtain, telling him how you want to vote, he fills in your choices and you never see the ballot again. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Our ballot must be human readable we must be able to discern our own choices and not leave it to a machine interface. Now this is not always possible as in the case of the blind but there are technologies that help the blind to vote in secret that produce a ballot. Equipment such as Automark produces an optical scan or human readable ballot. The ballot is printed on a heavy weight 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with standard markings. Any human or optical scan machine can read these ballots and they are ideal for hand counts should the need arise.


:kick:
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is pretty much EXACTLY WHAT ANDY TOLD ME...
...again, the last time we ever talked together, night of 7/1/05.

Oh God, I MISS HIM! :cry:

Thank you for posting, troubleinwinter.

Marybeth
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Yep. This came with the instructions that he e-mailed me, too.
Andy...our hero! I made a promise with him and swore that I would keep my word so I INTEND TO DO EXACTLY THAT! His voice will live on...he was so tired but he kept on fighting! I could barely hear him the last time we spoke...

peace.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. (((((fooj))))))
So good to see you! :hug:

Yes, no better way to honor Andy than to repeat his words and let folks know his truths.

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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
55. Truth...
TRUTH is our most powerful weapon! By honoring TRUTH, we honor Andy.

peace.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Exactly!
:patriot:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
65. fooj.
:cry:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. kick
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks for posting .. nt
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. A sad, lump-in-the-throat kick for this
Andy explained all of this to me the very first time we talked. I was pretty much a novice back then - lol, in December of 2004. It seems like a million years ago.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. (((hug))))
:hug:

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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Thanks - I looked at my last PM from Andy
He wrote, "If I haven't said it lately, thanks. :loveya:"

I still get teary-eyed reading it. I had just defended him in a post by a Bevbot and he wrote a quick PM to say thanks.

I am so sad, just terribly sad about it all - the Bev thing, the cancer, the ghouls. Maybe one day I'll get angry again but right now I am just sad.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I understand, believe me, I do understand. (((((hug))))))
Watch symbolman's tribute video again (see my sig) or just go out to garden and relax.

Others have planted flowers in their gardens or made paths through their gardens in his memory as his loved his garden and found such joy in tending it.

Just take time for you! :hug: The anger will transfer to determination, we will not lose sight of Andy's causes, as his causes were because he loved this nation so much.

:hug:

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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. I love you, Merh!
:pals:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. ditto
:blush: Never give up! :patriot:

Just do take time to rest between battles :boring: & to let the battle wounds heal. :hug:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. I have faith. Hope sustains us!
:hi:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. I sure hope your faith is sustaining!
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 05:16 PM by merh
;-) Never Give Up! :patriot:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Hang in, arnie
I will if you will.

:loveya:
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. I have tried not to cry but man, oh, man - it's hard
I have been in shock. He helped me so much with VOTE. I feel like I let him down by having to step back from it.

:(

Much love to you, Beth. We'll get through this together - all of us.

:loveya:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Arnie- Andy knew that you had to step back...
He would never want you to feel as though you had let him down. You didn't. Honest.:hug:

peace.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Aww, fooj, thanks for that
I needed to hear that. The guilt since he died has been awful, simply awful.

Dammit. I am crying now.

:loveya: fooj.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I'm glad I could help.
:hug:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. Trouble...thank you for honoring our friend by honoring TRUTH!
You rock, girlfriend! This is just what the doctor ordered!

BTW- Isn't Sonoma getting ready to host the annual "Horror Bash"...thought it might be this week or next?

peace.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Fooj!
:hi:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. ((((Cat))))
:pals:
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Yep, it is!
I think it goes on for a week and a half.

There are gonna be some demonstrations there 15th, 16th & 17th.

My daughter is gettin' married on Saturday, 16th... about 2 miles, as the crow flies, from Bohemian Grove! :o
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. fooj! hugs to you
Sure is and will be very interesting !
I really want to see the protesters.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. Kick for Andy....
:loveya:
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thank you, TIW. I've been looking for this to post on our website.
The only words that do Andy justice are his own. And nobody makes this essential argument better than Andy. I don't think anybody ever could!
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Hedda, do you have this one?
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 02:49 PM by troubleinwinter
By Andy Stephenson:

In order for me to vote, I must have faith. Faith in the system, faith in the process, and it's faith that makes me believe that it matters that I participate at all.

And anywhere along the way, if society, our government, elected officials, or individuals damage that faith, or cause me to question that faith, it doesn't just hurt me, it hurts the system itself, it attacks our beliefs and undermines our Democracy.

Democracy can't be bought with guns or bombs. Democracy is born as an idea and grows in the hearts and minds of those who believe in it, those who have faith in the system.

Why is the American Dollar stronger than the Peso? ... at least the
last time I checked...

Faith

Take away my ballot, my real life paper ballot, and you've undermined my faith at the most basic level. The tactile level, the level at which I can touch and feel the reality of my vote.

I'm not a Luddite, and I'm not against machines counting paper. But I
wouldn't trust a bank without deposit slips, or an ATM without a receipt.

I don't have faith in Corporations, weathermen, or politicians. And I shouldn't have to trust any of them to count my vote.

Referring to arms control treaties with the Soviet Union, Reagan once
said, "Trust but verify ". But I say, provide me a way to verify and
then I can start to trust.

And don't tell me that YOU trust the system. There's got to be a way
for me to trust the system. I need to be able to understand the process and verify the results in order to gain faith in the process.
This is a new bill of goods those who would take away my paper ballot are trying to sell. They want me to believe in mathematics, a
cryptography solution, VoteHere is one such company pushing this
solution. Some fancy math, and a receipt that I can punch into the
Internet that shows me that I voted. But no one seems able to explain to me how this works.

Fancy mathematics and fancy words loose my attention. While I might not be able to calculate the weight of the sun, I should be able to understand how we count votes. If we are going to have a Democratic society, it must allow me, and YOU, and any average citizen to be bad at math, but still be able to convince me that the system is valid.
The average member of society isn't going to understand a fancy system of cryptography, just as most of us realized long ago that fancy math hasn't helped us predict the weather. A 60% chance of a valid election doesn't sound very good to me. I just don't have faith in fancy math.

I especially don't have faith in fancy "proprietary "math. Another
word for proprietary is secret. So when someone tells me they have
some fancy mathematics, a cryptography solution, that makes my paper ballot unnecessary, once again, I'm not really that interested.
Because I don't have much faith in mathematics that I don't understand. And if you have to resort to explaining the system with
metaphor and simile, or if you need several experts to explain it to
me, you've lost me. And I'll have no faith in the system you build.

These machines, these blackbox voting machines. Already in place in
Snohomish and Yakima. They require me to trust without verification.
Trust the election officials, trust the government, trust the companies, trust the programmers, trust the mathematicians. But
frankly none of these people ever had my trust to begin with.

The media, the voting officials, the voting machine companies, even
the Supreme Court, is arguing that speed is of the essence, and obviously these machines are far speedier without paper ballots clogging up the process. But I don't care so much about speed, I'm more interested in accuracy. The battle isn't for speed. My faith isn't challenged by slow and steady bookkeeping with proper auditing.
It's challenged by secrets and lies. And once you've lost it, faith is a hard thing to regain.

These companies, and our election officials have lied to us, are lying
to us, and will continue to lie to us, they've committed fraud, and it
IS a conspiracy. It's a conspiracy to get rid of paper ballots, and I
for one am losing my faith in the system.

Don't be fooled though, it's not just about the paper. The devil is in
the details, and the details are in the words used. It's a verbal shell game, where "paper trail "and "paper receipt "are used to confuse you.

The words paper and ballot should not be separated. The go together
hand in hand, and to separate them undermines the strength they have when unified. Paper is tangible, traceable, hard to destroy.
Electrons, on the other hand are small, we can't see them, most of us
would have a hard time really explaining what they are. When I loose a $20 bill, I notice it's gone. When I lose an electron, I don't really notice.... unless my computer crashes, or I can't find a term paper, or my music skips. Scratch a piece of paper, I can still read what you wrote, scratch my new CD, it's worthless.

Paper trail, paper receipt, what do these terms mean? To me it means someone's trying to put one over on me. Cause when it comes to voting I know what a ballot is. It's been defined by law over hundreds of years. When I go to the grocery story I get a receipt, when I sell a house I sign a contract, and when I vote I get a ballot. Similes mean similar, they don't mean the "same ", and people who know the difference use the wrong words on purpose. They want some wiggle room... they want to change the system, they want to redefine the terms, get rid of the paper, turn the ballot into electrons, and give you a receipt, or a paper trail. Trick you into having faith in the system. So let's be clear here, and let's not mince words, a receipt is something that I get when I buy a banana, a ballot is something with which I vote. I'm not fooled by the verbal shell game. My eyesare still on the ball, and I'm not letting go of my paper ballot any time soon. Too adopt the words of the NRA you'll have to pry my paper ballot from my cold dead hands.

Words have meaning, and meaning builds faith. Faith is built on a
foundation of trust. Take away my trust, and you've undermined the
foundation. Bastardize the meanings built on that foundation and you
weaken the structure that holds up even weaker words. And just as
assuredly as a house starts to crumble as the foundation is eroded,
and the walls start to fall, democracy is being undermined as the
meaning is corrupted and the foundation is slowly torn from underneath. Take away my paper ballot, and you strip away the keystone on which I build my faith in the system.

So all this talk about faith, and really so far, very little about the
actuality of how a paper ballot works to increase my trust in the
system. You may ask me how a system of paper, in which ballot boxes turn up in Lake Michigan, or are lost in the back of the rooms of King County, inspires my faith.

The key is, that they do turn up later. One might be able to steal a
few hundred votes, a few ballot boxes might disappear, but their very
physicality makes those ballots hard to destroy. But click a button,
and send a few electrons off into the "ether ", who knows if it ever
gets where it's going, there's no physicality, and if it's lost, where
will we find it. My term paper that I lost in college is still lost, it never turned up in the back of the lecture hall, or under the bed in my dorm room. Electronic votes that are lost will never be found in the back room, and no ballots will ever turn up in the river, or in the trunk of someone 's car. Just because the machine recount tells me
the same number when I ask, doesn't mean it's more accurate. Data can be precise and simultaneously inaccurate.

Paper ballots are not a panacea, they won't fix the system. No, they
are simply the foundation on which the system is built. There are many layers above the foundation on which the house of democracy is built, and there are many checks and balances that must be in place to assure that our votes are counted accurately. Random audits, checking the paper against the machine counts, correlating the number of votes with registered voters, all good and necessary ways to double check the accuracy of the process. And any system is going to have a certain calculable margin of error, and if any of us are going to be honest about what just happened in Washington State, the margin of victory fell well inside that margin of error, regardless of the recount, neither side can statistically claim victory, so the only victory left is a legal victory. There is obviously more than one way to lose faith in a system of belief.

But without a solid foundation there's nothing for me to build my
faith upon.

Voting in this country use to be a public process. We voted in public,
the vote was counted in public, by the public. We trusted in the
system, because we the people were the system. And every battle we the people fought was to increase that trust, either to increase the
number and types of people that voted, or to increase the validity of
the system by reducing the influence of others on our personal choices. But now we vote in secret, using a secret ballot, on machines
with secret code. I think something has been lost here, don't you?

~Andy Stephenson
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Andy gave this speech in Nashville. Sound file here:
http://www.radio4all.net/pub/files/evan@iwaynet.net/440-1-20050512-gathering_to_Save_Our_Democracy_day_2_opening_panel_pt.mp3
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thank you for that!
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
80. I had asked him for a copy when we were in Nashville.
He forgot to send it and I didn't want to push him to do anything extra. But OMG, trouble, I'm so relieved and thrilled to have this magnificent speech. It's going up on the VoteTrustUSA site too.

There's a schism in the winds of the movement that should not be happening. Andy's words may be able to stop it, as Andy himself would have tried to do.

Damnit, I'm weeping again. :cry:
hedda
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
81. I had asked him for a copy when we were in Nashville.
He forgot to send it and I didn't want to push him to do anything extra. But OMG, trouble, I'm so relieved and thrilled to have this magnificent speech. It's going up on the VoteTrustUSA site too.

There's a schism in the winds of the movement that should not be happening. Andy's words may be able to stop it, as Andy himself would have tried to do.

Damnit, I'm weeping again. :cry:
hedda
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. A paper BALLOT takes precedence in any recount. A paper TRAIL does not.
That is the critical difference, simply put.

They can to toss your paper trail receipt out--disregard it, not count it, give preference to the electronic results over the paper backup.

A paper BALLOT, on the other hand, has legal standing. It is like having a dollar bill in your hand rather than a check for one dollar. A check might or might not be good. But a dollar is legal tender. (It may not be worth much, if Bush trillion dollar deficit and huge trade deficit policies continue, but, whatever it's worth, it's more real than a check.)

A paper BALLOT is the beginning of verifiable elections. There are other critical components, among them:
--open source code (!);
--significant mandated audit (automatic recount--minimum 5%, but many say 10% or better is needed);
--stringent security measures (no internal modems, no wireless, no internet connections during voting, no private company personel wandering around "servicing" machines during the vote or during tabulation, etc.

I think that there is so much corruption around electronic voting systems already (both bipartisan corruption of election officials, and Bushite ownership of these companies), that we need to CLEAN HOUSE, and go back to paper ballots/hand counts, at least temporily, while new and transparent and PUBLIC electronic systems are developed (if that's what people want).

Check out the hogfest planned for the Beverly Hilton this August --a week of fun and sun for our election officials, sponsored by...guess who? Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia. It will burn your eyeballs:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

DO NOT DESPAIR! NEVER DESPAIR! Let's get as much verification as we can, and keep trying! We are right about this, and we will win this fight eventually!
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
48. a paper trail can take precedence, it depends on the wording
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 03:57 PM by garybeck
legally speaking the difference between a paper ballot and a paper trail is that a ballot is used in the first count of an election and a trail is not.

In most pending bills and existing laws, the TRAIL will take precedence over a DRE numbers in the case of a recount.

the one identifying characteristic of a ballot, is that it is COUNTED in the election.

It is not correct to say that a paper TRAIL does not take precedence in a recount. Please see Rush Holt's bill, Hillary's bill, and several others. In those cases, the paper trail does take precedence.

peaceout,
gb

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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Um, GB, Holt's Bill does not use the word "trail"; it says "record"...
"Trail" is an ambiguous word; it allows "wiggle room" (Andy's term); see Andy's sig as follows:

When no statutory definition for a term exists, the first fallback in all courts is to consult the definition in Blacks Law Dictionary. a compelling case can be made for the fact that ballot is defined in Blacks Law Dictionary...Paper is defined in Blacks Law Dictionary but "Trail" is completely absent. Collectively the definition for ballot and the definition for paper generate a clear and easily understood legal definition of the paper ballot needed to ensure the integrity of our vote. Paper trail produces no such record. (Andy Stephenson)

Quote from HR 550 (Holt bill)

Sec 2 (a) (2)
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—
10 ‘‘(i) The voting system shall produce
11 or require the use of an individual voter-
12 verified paper record of the voter’s vote
13 that shall be made available for inspection
14 and verification by the voter before the vot-
15 er’s vote is cast. For purposes of this
16 clause, examples of such a record include a
17 paper ballot prepared by the voter for the
18 purpose of being read by an optical scan-
19 ner, a paper ballot prepared by the voter
20 to be mailed to an election official (whether
21 from a domestic or overseas location), a
22 paper ballot created through the use of a
23 ballot marking device, or a paper print-out
24 of the voter’s vote produced by a touch
25 screen or other electronic voting machine
26 so long as in each case the record permits the voter to verify the record in accordance with this subparagraph...."

And Op-Scan ballots (which are called ballots, see above) CAN be counted electronically on the first count (as well as by hand.)

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
76. there is no legal distinction between a paper trail and a paper record
the only legal distiction is with the word "ballot" which must be counted. there is no law that uses the word "ballot" for anything other than something that is used to actually count the vote in the election.

a paper record, and a paper audit trail, are essentially the same thing. if a DRE prints a record of what you voted, but it is not counted unless there is an audit or a recount, that can be called either an audit trail or a paper record.

in other words, if it is NOT counted, it can be called either a paper record or a paper audit trail. this item may or may not take precedence in the case of a recount and/or audit discrepancy. in most legislation it does, regardless of whether it is called an audit trail or a record.

peace
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. Except the word "trail" means anything, legally, and "record" is specific.
In an income-tax audit, the IRS asks to see your records, not your trails.

And I DO support Mandatory Manual Random Audits. Every time with the paper record being the BALLOT of RECORD.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. we're on the same page, I was only refuting the claim
that paper trails do not take precedence in a recount. paper trails, and paper audit trails, and paper records are just what they are. the law has to specify what takes precedence. in most cases, the paper (whether it's called a record or a trail) DOES take precedence if there is a discrepancy. So it was misleading to say that a "paper trail does not take precedence".

for the record, the *manufacturers* tend to use the word "audit trail" and the *legislators* tend to use the word "paper record" but they are referring to the same thing.

gb

------------------------------------
the solar bus
ELECTION JUSTICE CENTER
your home for updated information on the fight for democracy in America
http://election.solarbus.org
------------------------------------
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. My ballot wasn't counted.
:shrug:
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Neither was ANDY's last November. Isn't that the final irony?
He voted absentee and it wasn't counted.

:eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
43. keep it kicked
:kick:
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savannahana Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. "It is not merely a piece of paper it is me...it is my voice."
thank you, Andy.

thank you for posting it here, TIW.

nominated
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. "Determined efforts to make sure that you are being heard"
Let our voices be like the "fresh water that wells up and flows clean and clear."

BTW--I stash "special gifts", as well! :hug:

Peace.
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savannahana Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. " 'Tis a gift to be simple, 'tis a gift to be free"
right back to ya, fooj, with thanks,
from an old Shaker hymn

their restored early 19th-c community at Pleasant Hill
not too far from us here - Shakers were specialists in grokking "special gifts"

come visit any time, we'll take you there!! most loving ~ :hug: to you :hug:

ps: i do have this thing about free-flowing springs of fresh water, yep :-)
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. ((((ana)))))
:hug:

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savannahana Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
78. for you, sis: from Hildegard of Bingen
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 09:32 PM by savannahana
Columba aspexit ~ The dove peered in
per cancellos fenestre ~ through the lattices of the window
ubi ante faciem eius ~ where, before its face
sudando sudavit' balsamum ~ a balm exuded
de lucido Maximino. ~ from incandescent Maximum.

Calor solis exarsit ~ The heat of the sun burned
et in tenebras resplenduit ~ dazzling into the gloom:
unde gemma surrexit ~ whence a jewel sprang forth
in edificatione templi ~ in the building of the temple
purissimi cordis benivoli. ~ of the purest loving heart.

Iste turris excelsa, ~ He, the high tower,
de ligno Libani ~ constructed of Lebanon wood
et ciprisso facta, ~ and cypress,
iacinto et sardio ornata est, ~ has been adorned with jacinth and diamonds,
urbs precellens artes ~ a city excelling the crafts
aliorum artificum. ~ of other builders.

<continued in chant; to follow in voices>


:hug: merh :hug:

on edit: Latin spelling
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. ((( thanks )))
:hug: So good to see you out and in the threads! :hug:

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #78
96. Great to see Hildegard quoted
I did a major paper on her in grad school. Quite a woman.
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savannahana Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #96
103. great to hear from someone who recognizes Hildegard
yes, quite a woman

i would love to read that paper of yours,
as i'm sure my sister would (sister who first
acquainted me with Hildegard, many years ago)

thanks so much for your post :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
63. kick
:kick:
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. You betcha, 'kick'!
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Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. One More Reason Why I Wrote My Radio News America commentary
Thank you again for looking out for our voting rights, Andy!
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coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
70. kick
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
71. Another Document From Andy: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS OF VOTING
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF VOTING

1. Thou shalt not have an electronic ballot.

2. Thou shalt have a paper ballot as the ballot of record.

3. Thou shalt audit properly.

4. Remember Election Day and keep it a holiday.

5. Honor thy forefathers and thy foremothers: Vote!

6. Thou shalt not prevent thy fellow citizens from voting.

7. Thou shalt not alter the vote.

8. Thou shalt not steal votes.

9. Thou shalt not use private source code.

10. Thou shalt not do anything that will damage your countrymen’s faith in the ballot.

~ Andy Stephenson
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
72. Paper ballots NOW!!! Hand counts NOW!!!
RIP Andy.
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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
73. Kick for what Andy REALLY Wanted. (was not "hand counts now!")
READ HIS WORDS.

:kick:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Keep it kicked. Send the link out. Keep pounding on the issue
:kick:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. In this letter
what did Andy want if we lived in an ideal world? Maybe I'm missing something.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Unfortunately, we DON'T live in an ideal world.
If we did, Andy would be here posting on this thread himself tonight.
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Garth Beaumont Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
83. We need to carry
on from here! I'm with Andy!
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #83
91. Right On! Welcome to DU!
:hi:

Peace.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
84. Paper Ballots!!! Hand Counted !!!
RIP Andy.
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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Kick for what Andy REALLY Wanted and his REALISTIC vision.
:kick:

"...Now there are many people that say we should be all hand counted paper all the time. In an ideal world we would do that. But realistically that is not going to happen. Elections offices in most jurisdictions if not all, are under funded. Elections officials struggle with tight budgets and in most cases do a damned good job with what they have. Not all elections officials are bad and many want to run good clean elections. Keeping the system honest is up to us. With proper auditing and truly random recounts optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all our votes are more precious than gold."
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. I see Paper Ballots!!! Hand Counted !!!
"...Now there are many people that say we should be all hand counted paper all the time. In an ideal world we would do that."


(I say we push for what Andy ideally wanted, lets make Paper Ballots Hand Counted realistically happen for Andy.)


"But realistically that is not going to happen. Elections offices in most jurisdictions if not all, are under funded. Elections officials struggle with tight budgets and in most cases do a damned good job with what they have. Not all elections officials are bad and many want to run good clean elections. Keeping the system honest is up to us. With proper auditing and truly random recounts optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all our votes are more precious than gold."

RIP Andy.
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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Hmmm, I then guess you just don't see as clearly as Andy, do you?
Andy knew what was possible -- and what was not.

Andy knew what we will get if loud people who refuse to compromise keep pushing and screaming for 100% hand counted paper -- probably 100% paperless DREs.

Andy knew what would happen to this movement if we don't truly come together for fair elections and the issues we DO all agree on -- more stolen elections and the end of our democracy.

And Andy knew that in an ideal world things might be different -- but he absolutely also knew that this is NOT an ideal world.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. I think Paper Ballots Hand Counted
is the best way to go, what do you think? Should we keep playing cat and mouse with these voting machine manufacturers.

We will end up in a radar vs radar detector cycle, The cops have a radar gun, I buy a radar detector to beat the cops radar gun, the cops add something to their radar gun, that beats my radar detector,I have to buy a better radar detector to beat the cops radar gun and so on and so on .............. it never ends.

The same goes for voting machine manufacturers vs voters, we think we fixed the problem with the voting machines, they find away around it, it will never end, unless we ban the voting machines. The voting machines are not there to count votes, they are there to steal them.





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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. That is why Andy wrote this......
"With proper auditing and truly random recounts optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election."

He saw the necessity of doing what is possible, and getting elections officials on board, too.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
88. Thanks for posting this
Very nice. :)
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
89. Thanks for this.
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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
94. Kick for Andy IN HIS OWN WORDS.
:kick:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
95. Kick
RIP Andy.
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juliajgillespie2 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Thanks for this.
Thank you ALL for posting Andy's words, etc. I met Andy a little under 2 years ago - he left quite an impression. Here in Seattle, I'll be attending the memorial on Sat. but am really wondering, how to best help carry on his work. Is joining VerifiedVoter.com the way to go? Or is there some other organization/additional organization?

TIA
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Yes, if it feels
right to you. The main thing keep pushing the truth about these voting machine manufacturers. My opinion if they won't let you see inside the voting machine before during and after the election, how can you verify anything? Thats just my opinion.

Welcome to DU.

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juliajgillespie2 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Thanks, kster
I'll be checking out VertifiedVoter.com again in the next few minutes. (their newsletter/email was down yesterday)
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Heres another one to get involved in
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
102. a kick for those who visit DU on weekends
Cuz Andy's words are important to consider and act on.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
104. ...
:grouphug:
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
105. Kicking this for Andy RIGHT now.
Wish I could be in Seattle.
:cry:
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:37 PM
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106. Love and eternal gratitude to Andy
Surprised though that he would speak of Kevin Shelley in the present tense, fighting for honest elections. Shelley had been relentlessly attacked and smeared out of office for standing up for his constituents' right to have our votes counted. Shelley decertified Diebolds and was suing that company -- and the Bush cabal made him pay for it big time.
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