My 'illegal immigrant' rant

[proud2BlibKansan]

I posted this as a response in LBN and decided I was in the mood to put it here in GD as a topic of discussion. Flame away but I am sick and tired of hearing about the 'problem' of illegal immigration. I agree wholeheartedly with the posters who say the businesses who hire the illegal laborers are who we should punish, not the illegal employees.

These immigrants are merely engaging in a long time American tradition of wanting a better life for their families. They come here illegally from Mexico because it is close to impossible to do it legally without waiting for YEARS to leave Mexico. Their kids are hungry. They need an education. And health care. And the wonderful opportunities life in America brings them. So they literally risk their lives to sneak across the border and come here. But they aren't the first. My own ancestors snuck over from Ireland in the hold of a ship. They too were illegal immigrants when they arrived here. They didn't come legally because they were starving. They worked in the shipyards on the east coast and were paid under the table for back breaking work that American citizens would not do.

There are far too many myths in our white European American History. Not everyone who went west in the 1800s was white. Not all the cowboys in the wild west were white. There were African American and Hispanic Pony Express riders and stage coach drivers. The railroad tracks going west were laid by Chinese laborers as well as Irish and Germans. Many African Americans fought in the Civil War - on BOTH sides. My grandmother who was born in KS in 1898 grew up speaking German. My other grandmother was born in Tennessee on a plantation and had African American cousins.

The image our culture of movies and TV shows has painted of our history is false. I for one am sick of being lied to. I want my kids to grow up in a more honest world. This country was founded and settled by many different and yes, diverse, peoples. That is our culture and our heritage. It is what makes this a wonderful country. To turn away immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families is wrong. And it's unAmerican.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. There is much hypocrisy on the issue of illegal immigrants in U.S.

politics.

I agree that the immigrants themselves are just looking for opportunity to make a living.

People like to rail against the illegals and the costs in social services etc. they cause. But in many border and other states, people rely on the illegals to do their nannying, yardwork, be their busboys etc. and/or work cheaply for their companies...

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Yep, we earn far more

from the illegals than they cost us.

[ollie79]

2. scared

They are just scared they will not vote for the Rethugs. And yes some of it is about race. Childish! Vast majority are law abiding, etc... We do need to secure border from terrorists and nut jobs however.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Oh there are plenty members of the anti illegals crowd

right here on DU. It is sickening. WE are better than that. At least most of us are.

Just last week, a friend who is a rabid liberal went off on a rant about law and order and forcing illegals back because they are breaking the law. I told her she sounded like a right wing repukelican. She got mad and walked away and has not talked to me since. And she is gay. I am still stunned that she can go on for hours about anti gay hate but didn't recognize her own rhetoric as hate.

So it isn't just a rethug thing. Unfortunately.

And welcome to DU :hi:

[BlueStateModerate]

39. I'm one of them

I believe that if we have these laws, they should be enforced, not flouted. The uncontrolled influx of immigrants is creating a new lower class, helping pull the US down to third world status. The masses are encumbering social services and education as they force Americans to compete with a population that doesn't obey minimum wage laws.

However, I believe that one of the best ways to help stop the influx is to punish companies that hire illegals severely. And, sadly, we do need to ratchet up security on the border.

If people think the laws should change, then they'll change them. I don't think there's a ton of support out there for illegal immigration, though.

[philosophie_en_rose]

70. Follow the money.

An undocumented worker generates a lot of profit for businesses, stimulating the economy and earning every meager cent that is given back through public services.

Undocumented workers are not "pulling us down." The rest of the US stands on their shoulders. If that creates a reaction against the appearance of a "third world" class, it is unfortunate that those reactionaries are not more grateful for the contribution to the economy and society.

The problem is that the companies are not held accountable for the illegal profits that are made. You're right about that. However, increased security on the border is not going to change a damned thing.

[Ms. Clio]

76. "The uncontrolled influx of immigrants is creating a new lower class

helping pull the US down to third world status."

Please provide some statistical information, preferably in the form of a link to a reputable web site, but a cite to a reputable journal or book will suffice, in support of this assertion.

[madeline_con]

91. Please think about the statement

you're challenging, before demanding a source. Maybe the source is the poster's brain or their own opinion.

How many kids do we need in the school system, how many patients in the health care system, who pay nothing into those systems, do we need before both collapse?

How high do you feel your own taxes and health care bills should go before you say enough?

[Maestro]

101. Typical right wing talking points.

See post # 85 for link.

Myth: Immigrants are bleeding America's economy.

Fact: Immigrants help boost America's economy. In addition to creating more jobs, raising the productivity of American businesses and spending their incomes on American goods and services, immigrants pay $90 billion a year in taxes, while they receive only $5 billion in public assistance. They are less likely to utilize public benefits or become dependent on welfare than native born citizens.

[madeline_con]

141. pay taxes?

You said immigrants. Great, but do *illegal* immigrants pay taxes?

[tx_dem41]

149. Every time they buy something at the store.

That's one example. And, a hugely regressive one at that.

[madeline_con]

152. point taken

but the billions reportedly sent home tax free while the schools and health care are used and bills not paid doesn't help.

This is not a racist comment. If I were an illegal, I'd keep a low profile to elude the INS, which would include not paying certain bills, or be on certain lists, etc.

[Maestro]

161. Bull!

The Supreme Court has ruled that children of illegals can use the eduaction system. It is not a massive drain like many want to claim. The face of the average American child in public schools is changing but who cares? Are you scared of something. Here is the case by the way. Read it. It has some wonderful comments about why these kids need to educated now. But in short, it reads, educate them now or pay for it later!

Plyler vs. Doe

And see post #85 if you haven't already.

And what about the employer of these people not paying taxes because everything is done under the table? Do you think these businesses have a list of undocumented employees? Think about it. It is a two way street. If you want to get mad, don't blame these people who are trying to survive, blame the big businesses that exploit.

It amazes me how DU can have people that put big business over people, illegal or not!

Our own Constitution under the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause states that no state shall "deny to any PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." This means that the person can be a legal citizen or undocumented. Go after the big businesses, not the ones who come here and honestly want to work. :mad:

[tx_dem41]

179. According to this article...

http://cellar.org/printthread.php?t=8073

illegal aliens pay into Social Security 7 billion dollars a year that most likely they will never collect. Also, every time they pay rent they are paying property taxes towards schools. Everytime they buy a gallon of gas they are paying taxes. The one tax you can think of that they don't pay is income tax. At the slave wages that many/most work at, they probably wouldn't be paying much (if any) in income tax anyway.

And, I did not infer that you were making a racist comment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. How do you know they don't pay their bills?

[madeline_con]

196. Do you know

for a fact that they're all just misunderstood, hardworking people who need a break?

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. Most seem to be just that.

How do you know they don't pay their bills?

[fleabert]

227. yes.

fake documents provided to employers allow them to be hired 'legally', and state, federal, unemployment, social security, etc... are all witheld, just like anyone else's check. Only they never claim the benefits, most go back to mexico after they have grown old, never to get ss benefits, or they finally become legal and start to use their real names and documents. I will pay you five dollars if you can prove an illegal immigrant used the same fake papers they used to get work to get unemployment after the harvest season ended and they got sent south.

-I have family that came to this country illegally, they all paid taxes in this way for years, before becoming legal. Taxes are taken out, but at least they can claim the benefits, finally.

and don't forget sales tax...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

108. Prove that they pay nothing into the system

Keeping in mind that most of them pay taxes on everything they earn and everything they buy just like you.

[Bridget Burke]

114. Sales Taxes are going up again in Texas....

There's no State Income Tax, so the money has to come from somewhere.

Property Taxes may go down a bit. But when they go up--Landlords raise the rent.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. Prove that they pay nothing into the system

Keeping in mind that most of them pay taxes on everything they earn and everything they buy just like you.

[madeline_con]

157. UNCLE! Happy now? LOL

You proved your point. The operative word is "illegal" either way.
I still don't support changing the wording to read "guest worker" so they can get away with their illegal activities.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

215. Yeah so keep changing your argument to fit the post

I don't support immigration laws that favor bringing over tech workers from India to drive down REAL wages here while scapegoating Mexicans by making them illegal when they actually CONTRIBUTE to our economy.

BTW..the Minutmen bigots cost the town of Douglas about 500K in trade the month they were there. I am certain shop owners and grocers were happy for the protectionist bigots to leave.

[Maat]

190. Hi! Sorry we weren't able to meet for lunch, NSMA.

We're meet again.

I agree with what you say. Like I said, I've lived here my entire life (46-1/2 years).

They do pay taxes (sales, social security deductions), and frequently have monies deducted from their paycheck.

And my sister works for Social Services in eligibility - the parents get no benefits. Only the children, who are AMERICAN CITIZENS get benefits, as they should. They generate so, so much for our economy.

I welcome them with open arms, and always have (even though most of them will be more socially conservative than I - by a long shot).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

219. Thanks..and we WILL meet again

soon :D

[BurtWorm]

116. Republicans who are trying to return the US to pre-New Deal capitalism

are the ones who are making it into a third world nation. They're the ones working to create a new permanent lower class through restructuring of the tax code, changes in entitlement programs, bankruptcy reform, outsourcing, etc., etc., etc.

[NorCalDem]

3. That's what they don't understand.

WE all built this place together, every single one of us, even those coming across the border today. Why are they so fucking special??

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. And why do they fear diversity?

I think it's neat that my neighborhood grocery store now has a Mexican food aisle. I went to a convenience store today wanting a candy bar and I bought Mexican candy that was wonderful. And I am trying to hablo Espanol. It's an exciting adventure for me. I love it.

[NorCalDem]

40. Even if they don't want to embrace it

I personally enjoy it as well, they do not have to embrace other cultures. That still does not give them the right to shit on and oppress them though, and they just don't see it that way. It's kinda sad actually.

[madeline_con]

92. but...

these particular people are working AND paying taxes, not cheating the systenm that feeds them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. AND not filing returns

to get the refunds they are entitled to.

[madeline_con]

154. Evading authorities

right?

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. And I wonder too

why you are here.

Are we next going to hear RW law and order talking points? :eyes:

[madeline_con]

188. I'm here to discuss, just as you are.

If that's o.k.

Must we ALL agree on every little thing?

[cynatnite]

5. Some illegal immigrants were actually white

I consider some of the ranting about it by RWer's who scream 'shut the borders' almost racist and some of it actually is racist.

My father was an illegal immigrant. After WWII he was smuggled into the country from Austria with a different name other than what he was born with. He had been treated for TB and there were other reasons for not giving his real name.

It wasn't until he was an adult that he got a green card. They did tell him that if he ever left the country he would not be allowed back in.

He loved the US too much to take that risk.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Thank you for saying it -

R A C I S T.

There - it's out in the open now. Yes, it is racist to scream 'shut the border'.

[cynatnite]

15. Yep, look at who it's usually directed at

I think the media is a lot of the reason there is so much racism in this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. The media is the reason

behind a lot of the problems in our country. Too bad we don't have more journalists like Will Pitt.

[hemp_not_war]

57. racist??

I will take issue with that. I think it is way out of line to call people racist. It is strange because this same accusation comes up with Israel, however it is reversed, you are an anti-semite if you speak out against America paying money to keep it a racially pure Jewish state. The argument for Israel is the same as in America, you open the borders and you will have an Arab majority in Israel, a hispanic majority in America. If this happens too quick, the immigrants who control the country will make it more like their homeland and lose some of the origonal culture. This is a problem. It is stupid we go to the extremes and say your racist if you don't support Israel closing the borders, and your racist if you don't support America opening the borders. Everything in moderation.

There are many reasons immigration has to be limited and take place slowly. For one thing if we just let everybody who wanted to come here come, it would be a disaster not only to the remaining environment but in terms of the human condition.

Another is the class differences. I have friends who came from Mexico, and were able to rise up into the main America class because they were able blend in with other Americans. I think now in California immigration is starting to happen too fast. There are so many that don't blend in with Americans, learn English and other things needed to be sucessful. So they get stuck in a lower class forced to do menial labor. And now I've heard hispanics saying they feel its exploitive to hire a maid. Thats what happens when there is a major class difference, you get one group of people on the top saying 'oh no we're not exploiting them, they can't do any better'.

The other thing is the labor market. Immigration promotes a cheap labor market as opposed to a strong job market where jobs pay well. If you lean to a cheap labor market, it is like the days of the robber barrons of old America, nothing could be worse for the masses and better for the elites.

[meganmonkey]

58. If there is no racism involved, why are the targeted immigrants only

coming from the south - e.g. Mexico and Latin America?

There are laws in place and we don't enforce them consistently. And when we do enforce them, they are virtually always brown people. I know lots of illegal European immigrants who never get hassled. The only people I personally know who have been hassled are from Mexico, Dominican Republic and Pakistan.

That reeks of racism. I am certainly not calling you racist, or others who oppose illegal immigration. But until the laws are enforced more consistently, I think there is racism involved in the big picture. My 2 cents.

[hemp_not_war]

238. That may be your situation

Personally my experiences are opposite. I have never met an illegal immigrant from Europe but run into illegals from other countries on a daily basis. And they never get hassled. When Bush considered amnesty for illegals here, the hispanic community in CA opposed it. Are they self-hating racists? No. I oppose it because I think it is just propaganda from wealthy CHEAP LABOR CONSERVATIVES who got the immigrant community airtime to put those accusations of racism out, and some people on the left have picked up on it because they hate racism so much. I am opposed to illegal immigration for populist reasons not racist.

Going to the racist argument reminds me a lot of the right going to the Anti-American argument if you oppose the war. See people on the right have such a suspicion that there are leftists who are communtists and want to subvert the political system. All you have to do is tell them is orginizations like ANSWER have communist ties, and they see it all as an anti-American plot and oppose it without even going further to listen to the argument. They got played, because of their suspicion and fears. Likewise it seems people on the left fall for the same thing, you just have to bring out one racist group that says close the borders to keep America racially pure and then they don't look further into the argument. The argument is BS, America is not racially pure, and we will have a hispanic majority in 20 years even if we close the borders, eventually it will probably be an asian majority again here. We are the most mixed nation on earth. If you are for illegal immigration, ask yourself who benifits. It is powerful elites, the cheap labor conservatives. In a strong job market the workers hold the reigns so can demand what they deserve. In a cheap labor market the giant bosses have the leverage.

[madeline_con]

96. mixed feelings

If someone wants a maid, and someone else will be one, that's just business.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. Just read some of these responses

Sure sound like racism to me.

[dejaboutique]

80. oh pull out the race card

blah blah blah blah blah.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dejaboutique]

201. so what

so I can't post my opinions unless I have over 1K posts? are my posts not valid? how am I to get to the "valid" state that you are in? I am infact an formally educated individually that has been lurking since 2000 - thats 5 years ago for clarification. Illegal means illegal, that is what it means. Let me know when Websters Dictionary changes the word illegal and then we can talk. I know several LEGAL immigrants that do not look kindly on illegals. flap your race card in the wind all you want :)

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dejaboutique]

205. so this is what it takes to be a democrat

threatened from a great political asylum I have been around for years? because I dont agree with this one subject or call you out on pulling race cards?. wow, that is too bad.

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. Try to disagree

without the RW rhetoric.

[dejaboutique]

212. ok

school me please, honestly ..how should I go about doing that?

[cynatnite]

223. I'm the one who said it first

I used the 'race card' first when this thread began. The reason being is that when the media focused on illegal immigrants it was usually in regards to people with darker skin. I also said that those who yell 'shut the borders' the loudest bordered on racist or were outright racist. I probably should have clarified my post better and said that most RWer's I've heard rant about it did it in a derogatory fashion that I thought was offensive.

It's a tough subject for me because my father was an illegal immigrant and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for him. While I think we do need a common sense approach I loathe the idea of shutting the borders and not letting people in. I honestly can't blame anyone who wants to come here for a better life for themselves and their family. There is poverty so bad that it makes my stomach turn. If I thought I could put food in my child's stomach, send them to school and put a decent roof over their head by sneaking into this country, I would.

Let me put it to you this way...when I hear the bitching about illegal immigrants and I say my father was one...most people do a double take and then try to back track because they were thinking Mexican. That tells me plenty.

As for newbies such as yourself :hi: what I learned when I first got here were a few things. Don't point out anyone's low post count and don't accuse someone of being a freeper. I got in trouble a couple of times over it.

[dejaboutique]

235. thank you cynatnite

thank you for that reply. I understand where you are coming from...and I am definitely not a freeper :) thanks for the welcome!

[madeline_con]

93. Nice word to use...

like screaming about Hitler every time a certain POV doesn't fit the Dem mold.

Some of us are worried there will be nothing left for the citizens who pay taxes because of the non-citizens who don't; sucking the well dry.

It's not about racism, it's about avoiding economic collapse. We cannot afford to support the world, as nice and freedom loving as we may feel we are, it can't be done.

Fox needs to fix his country so everyone doesn't feel they need to come here. Veggies can be grown in Mexico.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Sorry but non citizens pay taxes on what they earn and what they buy

just like you do.

These people account for a very small percentage of the population. WalMart employees cost Americans more in services than migrant workers do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Our economy is NOT collapsing because of illegals

This is a RW talking point. You are on DU, not that other site we can't name.

Our economy is struggling due to *'s policies favoring corporations and the upper class. Think about it - we were in great shape after 8 years of Clinton. And we had illegal immigrants then too.

Numerous posters here have mentioned the fact that illegals pay taxes but don't file for refunds. They pay into social security for benefits they will never receive. Do your homework; you are making racist comments whether you realize it or not.

And veggies can be grown in your own backyard if you really don't want to support that industry.

[madeline_con]

150. Our economy

cannot continue to support millions more people every year, without more money going in.

Why do I have to fit some damn mold of what a Democrat or Republican SHOULD do or believe or say? Wrongas I may be in your opinion, I have the right to differ. I thought Dems were all about freedoms.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

153. Those millions pay taxes, and your tax $$ goes toward corporate welfare

more than supporting illegals.

"I thought Dems were all about freedoms."

We are, but you are on a Democratic Board for Democrats and other progressives. Just an FYI.

[madeline_con]

156. Yes, a Dem board

Does that mean all we do is sit around agreeing, high fiving and patting each other on the back for saying something that sounds Democratic, or are we allowed to disagree to some extent?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

159. Disagreements are very common, but be prepared to get flamed

if you spout RW talking points. I haven't seen anything of substance to back up your claims, except what I've heard on Rush.

[Maestro]

167. We can disagree, sure.

But you sound incredibly reichwing when talking about immigrants. Democrats and progressives are about the individual, rights and freedoms. You have consistently sided against the powerless in this discussion and have nary said a word against those that expliot them. That is why undocumented peoples come. They know they will find work with unscrupulous businesses. Do you support that type of business? Have you read any of the links to sites that try to paint a true picture of what the life of an undocumented worker is like? Or have let your prejudices blind you?

[madeline_con]

191. "... and have nary said a word against those that expliot them."

Do you not buy produce?

[madeline_con]

194. maybe I have

'reichwing' ideas about some things, according to your POV.

I voiced my opinion. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff to read about how tough it is, etc. No one's forcing these people to do what they do except their own government.

People in this country who are tired of supporting the ones who don't come here and play nice shouldn't be attacked for being realists.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

218. Yes..just try to use actual facts

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. More money is coming in

There are several posts here explaining that. We make money off of illegal immigrants. Their SS contributions represent 10% of the surplus in that fund. SS would really be in trouble without all those fake numbers and the money collected from those card holders.

Illegals pay taxes too. They pay sales tax. They pay income tax (and don't file for refunds). They pay property taxes.

So yes, we are bringing money in.

[Igel]

6. I personally don't like illegal immigration and don't see the point

in the last two paragraphs.

Recently we were in line at a drug store in Poland. OTC medications in Poland really are OTC, not self serve. My wife was just starting to get over her flu, mine was in full swing, and our 16-month-old badly needed something to clear up his congestion.

The line was long. Very long. We finally get to the front, and two old ladies who apparently were tired of waiting jump in front of us to get their problems handled. My Polish is weak, and I wasn't about to try to fight with them.

But I didn't need to. The other 15 or so people, many of which were in front of them in line, interceded.

A partial response to illegal immigration is this: if we don't have the will or the means to stop it, great; but automatically reduce the legal quotas from the region by the same amount. Say 100k are allowed in annually from country X, legally; if 500k come in illegally from country X in a given year ... five years' worth of legal immigration quotas are filled.

[skygazer]

9. Oh, there's a good solution

Make it even harder to come here legally. Pray how will that cut down on illegals? Doesn't it stand to reason that they would increase?

[Maestro]

32. Yes the argument here is illegal immigration; not legal.

In the past here at DU, it has boiled down to those that say:

1) Illegal immigration is bad, but getting mad at undocumented workers is not the answer and groups like the Minute Men groups are not helping the situation because,

2) the real culprits here are corporate America willing to do anything for a better bottom line.

or

1) Screw illegals. The are a burden to a our society, kick them out.

I fall in the former category not the latter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. The point of the last two paragraphs

is that we are a nation of immigrants. Not all were legal. And not all were white. That is not the image we are given in our TV shows and movies.

And I don't understand the point of your story. That even people in Poland can be rude? :)

[madeline_con]

94. Excellent!

A total moratorium on immigrants from Mexico for an indefinite period. Good idea!

BTW, to anyone who says look who it's aimed at or why pick on Mexico, uh, do you see a lot of Canadians, Nigerians, Syrians etc, spilling over into the U.S. from right next door?

[Maestro]

103. Are you serious?

:shrug: This would only increase illegal immigration.

[madeline_con]

142. Those who'd come here

illegally would do so anyway. It would only reduce the total number.

[Maestro]

170. No, I say it would simply increase the number of illegal

immigration. The ones that would have come legally will now come illeglly. Closing off borders is very Pat Buchanan. Do you like this guy?

[madeline_con]

206. I understood what you said.

I st9ill say that if no legals were allowed in, the total would be less.

Do you mean those law-abiding types who wait for their turn and fill out all the proper forms would turn to a life of crime, moving from place to place harvesting produce and taking odd jobs "Americans don't want"?

Do you think Pat Buchanan is the only person to come up with an idea as radical as securing our borders?

Should I do the next predictable Republican thing, and attack you via how much you must love Bill Clinton?

What would you have us do? Greet them all at the border with great high tech jobs and free housing?

[Maestro]

214. You seem to think that I am welcoming illegal immigration

Nothing could be further from the truth, but I am not about to condemn the undocumented worker. They work and serve a function in our society. The ones we should attack unanimously are the business, small and large, that continue to hire them! Although, since we are talking about illegal immigration I am also going to try to debunk the crap that some are saying about them because it simply is not true!

[madeline_con]

211. look here Maestro

you're wearing me out.

I'm sure you've heard all this before, so nothing I say is news.

I'm sorry we don't agree on the problem, but that's life. Maybe we can agree on something else in another thread. I would like to bow out now. You and a whole lot of other people know how I feel, some agree, some don't.

I'm convinced that some peopl may just read along, and keep their traps shut if their POVs don't jibe with the 'expected' Dem outlook.

You're cool, and I like you. I don't want bad blood between us. Let's smoke a peace pipe, what say you?

:smoke:

[Maestro]

216. I gave that up a long time ago.

But a beer will do.

[Somawas]

7. The key word in this rant is ILLEGAL

Honestly we need an immigration policy that we are willing to uphold and enforce. For years we've been unwilling to enforce our own immigration laws. Why bother having them?

The country is founded by immigrants. My people all came here from various places in Europe, and before 1760, but they too, were immigrants. But turning people away is most certainly not UnAmerican. And refusing to send them back when they come here illegally is hypocritical.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. The demand is so great

Do you have any idea how long it takes to get a green card? Here in my city there is an 18 month wait just to meet with an immigration official and get the application. Then as long as another 18 months to get it approved. Sorry, but if my kids were hungry and living in a shack with no indoor plumbing or electricity I too would risk whatever to come across the border to work.

[Horse with no Name]

38. Not to mention the amount of money that the immigration

attorneys charge them once they are here.
It is shameful.
I live in an area that has a great number of illegals and I am telling you--they do jobs that nobody else wants.
Not many people want to work 18 hours days, 7 days a week, 365 days a year milking cows and cleaning up cow shit at the dairies.
That is where the majority of the illegals in our area work.

[Speed8098]

54. So instead of trying to change things, they should come here?

What if the framers of our Constitution would have had the same attitude?

We would still be under English rule.

Legal Immigration is the backbone of this country. Illegal immigration will kill this country.

Todays illegal immigrants want us to conform to the ways of their home country, when in reality, they should be conforming to the culture of American society. Obviously they left their country for a reason.

Sorry, but if my kids were hungry and living in a shack with no indoor plumbing or electricity I too would risk whatever to come across the border to work.


There is a community here on Long Island that has been over run by illegals in the past few years, Farmingville is the name of the town. Some of you may have heard of it, some may not.
Just this past week, a landlord in Farmingville was arrested for renting ONE HOUSE to 64 illegal immigrants! 64!

Is this what you want happening in your neighborhood?
This is just one guy who got caught. There are many more like him who are still getting away with it.

Your wife can't even walk to the corner store without being harassed in a language that is foreign to her. Your taxes are skyrocketing because the classes in school now have 35-40 students and at lease 1/3 of their parents don't pay taxes.

I could go on and on.

Call me racist if you choose, I don't care.

I'm not, I just hate everybody :)


Seriously, illegal immigration needs to be dealt with. Our laws need to be enforced. People who hire the illegals need to be punished.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. There was a bad accident on a highway in MO over the weekend

20 illegal immigrants were in a van. It overturned, 5 died.

If you think horrible accidents and folks breaking housing codes will stop once we curb illegal immigration, you are delusional. People will do stupid things and break the law no matter where they come from.

Your wife can't even walk to the corner store without being harassed in a language that is foreign to her. Your taxes are skyrocketing because the classes in school now have 35-40 students and at lease 1/3 of their parents don't pay taxes.

This is just an incredibly racist comment and completely false. How would a woman know she is being harrassed if she can't speak the language? As for the schools, in my district they are NOT overcrowded. The average class size is from 20 to 25, not 35 - 40.

[Maestro]

132. Plus many of these people

do not own homes so they live in apartment complexes and the landlords pay the school taxes! Those that do own homes are probably legal anyhow and do pay taxes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. And a lot of them wear their seatbelts

so they don't get hurt in car accidents.

[Speed8098]

239. "As for the schools,"

As for the schools, in my district they are NOT overcrowded. The average class size is from 20 to 25, not 35 - 40.

I see, so because your school district is not over crowded, then no school is over crowded.
That is just plain stu................nevermind

How would a woman know she is being harassed if she can't speak the language?

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you never been around foreign speakers and still know what they are talking about? Catcalls are catcalls, regardless of language.

This is just an incredibly racist comment and completely false.

So now you say I'm a liar without knowing me.

Think what you will my friend. But do some research. Earlier this year here in New York, the police rounded up a bunch of sex offenders, the majority were illegals. http://www.alipac.us/article102.html
Read the story.

And what is your point here?
"There was a bad accident on a highway in MO over the weekend 20 illegal immigrants were in a van. It overturned, 5 died."

It only reinforces my statement that we need to enforce our immigration laws. I feel sorry for those that died, but if they had come here through due process, they wouldn't have been in that van.

As I said before, immigration is a good thing, ILLEGAL immigration is bad.

[Maat]

195. Do mind if I ask you which states you have lived in?

For you don't seem to have had much interaction with the immigration situation.

I've lived in California all of my life. You certainly don't sound like a Californian. Have you lived in New York all of your life?

I know firsthand how virtually all of the food you eat was harvested by illegal immigrants (at least all of the fresh luscious fruit and vegetables I eat). My house was not doubt built by illegal immigrants - before I came on the scene (and they did an excellent job too - they make me $300K).

I love living in a state in which I can sit down and hear the beautiful sound of many different languages being spoken.

And I'm proud to say that someone can cuss me out, or hassle me, in five languages, and I can respond back quite nicely.

[Speed8098]

240. Are you talking to me?

If you are, I've lived in NY for over 25 years, I was born in Ky, spent many years in Fla., as well as some time in New Mexico.

You know Florida, the state where oranges grow. When I was young I picked oranges for a while, hell, they were my mainstay for survival. I ate them for breakfast lunch and dinner, with a few mango's sprinkled in.

I was one of the few english speaking pickers. You know why? Because native born Americans are not welcome, not because it's a job Americans won't do. I had to watch my back night and day. There was more than one occasion where I had to defend myself for no other reason than because I was white.

Racism is not reserved for the white guy, believe me. Have you ever been to a foreign country? I have. Several as a matter of fact, and let me tell you, the welcome mat was not rolled out.


You certainly don't sound like a Californian.
Thank you for that compliment. Most Californians I've met in my 48 years on this earth, have been a little flaky for my tastes.

Commit a crime go to jail.
Entering this country undocumented is a crime.

[Maestro]

10. It's a tough call for most here

as there are many good working class people that feel their jobs are being taken, which I believe not be true and then unfortunately there are some that are frankly racist. Most of those have been tomb-stoned as a result of those threads. But as you say, the ones to go after are the fat cats that prefer to employ them at disgustingly low wages with no benefits other than transportation to the workplace. :sarcasm: And for those few that want to say that their children are putting undue pressures on our school system, not according to the Supreme Court. And read some of the concurring opinions. They are fantastic!

http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Plyler/

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Thanks I will check those opinions out

The Hispanic kids in my school district have presented a challenge to us. They are NOT a problem or putting undue pressure on our system. We have had to hire more Spanish speaking teachers and other employees. But we have gained so much.

And oh how hard working the parents are! The neighborhood around my school is now largely Hispanic (and many are most likely illegals). It is now cleaner and has less crime than 10 years ago. They are trying to stay out of trouble because an arrest means they will be sent back to Mexico. So they make their kids mind, they keep their yards clean and mowed and they work work work. Many have THREE jobs. Most families have two parents and boy is that ever a switch from the staus quo. They are also incredibly grateful for everything we do at school for their children. Many routinely cry at parent teacher conferences, they feel so blessed that their kids are getting such a good education.

[Maestro]

31. I know what you mean.

I would never want to teach in an affluent with parents who think that since they went through public schools they know how to teach and run a school and impart this sort of thinking on their kids who in turn have little if any respect for teachers. Was that a run-on sentence? Anywho, I will always want to teach in a high poverty, high respect for teachers learning environment. Immigrants, primarily Mexican, Guatemalan, Salvadoran and Nicaraguan in my case, do some great things to engender the idea that teachers are highly respected members of a community. I've had some run-ins with some bad ones but overall I would not change the population I serve for nuttin'. I'm not saying all affluent schools have the opposite attitude but that it is more likely to be present.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. I do not ever want to teach

kids whose parents have more education than I do. Been there, done that, threw the t-shirt away.

I like teachin in the hood. I feel 'preciated there. :)

[madeline_con]

98. The 'hood also has...

the disrespectful asswipes who think you're there to serve them but give no respect, because that basic ethic is not taught at home.

Been there, done that, and still wearing the shirt.

[Maestro]

107. They come in all forms

but give me my school any day over an affluent area, my choice.

[madeline_con]

144. Absolutely...

but the kids in the 'hood can be just as racist as any David Duke supporter. They can have a very anti-white atitude, even if they don't know the first thing about you.

[Maestro]

171. Not the ones I have met in my very Hispanic,

Spanish speaking school. About 50% of the kids are learning English. I have never encountered this except for one ocassion in 10+ years.

[madeline_con]

203. I haven't

encountered any of the blatant disrespect form Hispanic kids that I see from whites and blacks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

199. Not many that I know.

In fact, the lack of prejudice among our Hispanic kids is something we have discussed at school. It is pretty remarkable. We wish we could bottle it and share it with some of our other kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. I have taught in both the hood and the wealthy burbs

and I prefer the hood. I fit better there.

[madeline_con]

140. Me, too...

BUT, there are those times when you meet a disrespectful little ingrate who tells you, "My Mama said I don't have to listen to white people."

Lovely way to raise a child!

[Maestro]

173. That is a problem with that family

It is not or should not be representative of the whole group, just like not all illegals are doing what you claim!

[madeline_con]

189. Well, to begin with...

I never claimed all illegals were.

When enough are that the governments of some of the border states start screaming, maybe they're causing some economic and social problems that aren't figments of Republican imaginations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

209. I have been doing this for 25 years

and I have never heard that from a kid.

I have heard "I am going to tell my mom" And we hear "I am not coming back to this school next year" (meaning they can act out to their heart's content).

I have had ONE parent tell me I couldn't meet his kid's needs because I don't share his culture. ONE. And that child is now sitting in state prison for attempted murder. His parent didn't think rules applied to his child. But that is a whole nuther thread. :)

[Maat]

192. And I speak a few languages.

And I'll bet you do too.

I just took a job with a law firm in the 'Hood. I had retired from social work to go back to law school five years ago. I missed it so much. You are right; I so enjoy helping people there - and I do feel so much more appreciated.

As far as I'm concerned, I like hearing different languages spoken, and I like signs and papers with different languages on them; it makes me feel like our country has grown up (to be just like the rest of the world in terms of sophistication).

[silverlib]

16. I say quit exploiting them

I live in Austin. I know of one company that intentionally hires illegal immigrants and can't pay them through payroll because they outsource and the outsourcing payroll company checks their legality. He pays them $10 an hr., but here's the kicker. THe SOB takes a kickback of $3 an hour (cuase he would have to pay if they get hurt.)

These hard working immigrants need to be paid the same as legal residents and citizens. The problems would go away if employers quit exploiting these people.

There is no longer any enforcement in place to keep companies from exploiting workers, legal or illegal.

Okay, there's my rant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Agreed

Let's go after the employers, not the workers.

[Maestro]

33. Totally agree!

From mom and pop companies to corporate America, there is where you can lay blame. If the undocumented workers knew that work would be hard to find, they wouldn't come, plain and simple.

[madeline_con]

95. So, they get $7.00 an hour

to pick produce?

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. When I was in college

I had friends who made $15 an hour detassling corn. That was 35 years ago.

[madeline_con]

145. And these are...

jobs Americans won't do. HMMM...

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. The hmm should be

why is the pay for farm laborers half what it was 30 years ago?

[madeline_con]

200. because they can

get away with it.

[silverlib]

184. No produce pickers in Austin

to my knowledge. These people are laborers. no overtime, no benefits - lots of hours - and no complaining.

[Lexingtonian]

17. what no one ever admits

is that there are no just and final laws about immigration. No law that has a lot of specifics serves well for long. Immigration is a situational problem and doesn't fit abstractions very well. A society has the sovereignty to decide who will join and on what criteria, and nothing else really holds as a rule. Legal and illegal are bureaucratic distinctions.

The bottom line on American immigration is economics. When there is a boom, no one cares or just about no one objects. When there is a harsh recession no one wants immigration.

Right now we have what amounts to a boom toward illegal workers and a harsh recession as concerns native/naturalized workers. Our corporations' mismanagement and profiteering has made it so. And that is due to large scale governance problems, not stuff that has easy administrative fixes.

[pennylane100]

18. My heart goes out to all the people that risk their lives to get here.

I came from England over forty years ago, although I never thought I would end up staying here, but I did and I love it. That being said, illegal immigration places the biggest burden on those already here and are at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Employers will never pay more than the minimum wage when there are more than enough people willing to work for less. The burden that illegal immigrants place on local medical communities mainly impacts poor uninsured citizens and legal immigrants who face cutbacks in care in order to pay the bills that are incurred in giving care to all.

The only people in the community that do not suffer are the corporations. They benefit by having with a never ending supply of cheap labor. And because much of this labor is here illegally, they are free to exploit them without recourse.

What's really sad is that raising these points means being called a racist by fellow liberals who seem not to care what the impact of illegal immigration bring to this country's most needy communities.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. I have seen many studies

that show we make far more off of the illegals than they cost us. There was a great post right here just the other day on that topic.

[pennylane100]

27. I have also read that and it may be true.

Unfortunately I don't think the benefit goes to those that need it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Well we all know who benefits the most from

just about everything in this economy today.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Stolen from another thread:

Illegal immigrants and Social Security

April 10, 2005

True, the law is a joke that is rarely enforced, and that should bother the law-and-order crowd more than it does. But by forcing employers to require Social Security cards – even bogus ones – IRCA did manage to rope illegal immigrants into the system. Last year, contributions by illegal immigrants made up about 10 percent of the Social Security surplus – the difference between what the system takes in and what it doles out.

According to a recent story in The New York Times, the numbers are startling. But they help explain why the U.S. government has tolerated illegal immigration for so long. It's the same reason that someone visiting Las Vegas tolerates a slot machine spewing out silver dollars.

Here's the drill: People enter the country illegally, promptly procure bogus Social Security cards from the black market, and use them to get jobs. Eventually they get paid, and those earnings generate W-2s that go to the Social Security Administration, which tucks them away in something called the "earnings suspense file." (The government does try to notify some of the larger employers that Social Security cards they've accepted appear to be phony, but that's about the extent of its efforts to figure out where all this money is coming from.) According to the best estimates of the Social Security Administration, the fund has kept track over the last 20 years of more than $300 billion in total earnings – the vast majority of them attributable to illegal immigrants.

Three-hundred billion dollars! You have to admit that's pretty impressive in a country where no one will admit to actually hiring illegal immigrants in the first place.

But those are just the figures in a ledger. The hard currency is the Social Security taxes that illegal immigrants and their employers pay on those earnings. That rings in at about $7 billion a year. Which is why you don't hear the Social Security Administration raising a fuss over illegal immigration. And to the degree that this arm of the U.S. government has friends in Congress, it could explain why you don't see many pieces of legislation calling for mass deportations of illegal immigrants. I mean, why kill the golden goose?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_mz1e10ruben.html

[earth mom]

42. Thank you for saying this so eloquently...

I feel the same way and resent being called racist for it. What is happening with illegal immigration is an exploitation of people-legal or not-and that is wrong and what makes it worse is the government does nothing. IMO-This is just another form of outsourcing whether people can see it or not.

And I have to wonder....would it be considered racist if millions of people from Europe started coming over here by the boatload or how about Australia or Asia or Africa and started taking jobs which resulted in lower wages for the working class across the board? Wouldn't that be the EXACT same thing? How would people frame it then?

If you want to be REALLY fair...might as well open the borders to the ENTIRE WORLD to immigrate here with no restrictions whatsoever.

[EFerrari]

47. Well, this already happened.

"And I have to wonder....would it be considered racist if millions of people from Europe started coming over here by the boatload or how about Australia or Asia or Africa and started taking jobs which resulted in lower wages for the working class across the board? Wouldn't that be the EXACT same thing? How would people frame it then?"

And we call it American History.

[earth mom]

66. Yes, but it's not happening now.

These days, people can't come here and stay indefinitely. They have a time limit. They have to return to their country. How is it fair to someone from Africa who is also poor who wants to come here just as desperately, and actually finds a way to do so, and then gets sent back? I just don't think you can bend the rules for one group of people and not everyone. Open the borders to everyone like they had a 100 years ago. That's the fairest way.

[EFerrari]

168. The problem is, the bordercrossers are much, much older

than the borders.

We think of borders the way we saw them in our schoolbooks. Fixed lines. If you look around, there are countless peoples around the world who don't see those same fixed lines and who move back and forth.

And will, long after we're gone.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Right on, sfexpat2000!

This thread is getting ridiculous.

[gardenista]

19. Great post. Nominated. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Gee thanks

[Mythsaje]

24. I feel for these people

who come here looking for a better life, for the "Land of Opportunity" we've trumpeted through the media the last hundred years or better.

Everyone deserves a chance to improve their lot in life, be it in their homeland or somewhere with (allegedly) greater opportunity. I love this country and the ideals it represents (if not always the way things come about) and I don't resent anyone for doing what they have to in order to flourish and thrive.

And, to be honest, I don't give a stainless steel rat's ass about legal vs. illegal. It's hard for me to take seriously any claim of ownership of this land made by those who forget this land was more or less stolen in the first place.

We have a vested interest in securing ourselves from those who'd do us harm, but those who would not? <shrug>

And, even assuming they make use of our social services, I cannot argue that we'd pay less taxes if they didn't. I'd rather my tax money go to feed the hungry and house the homeless than to make MORE hungry and homeless by pursuing an agenda of aggression elsewhere.

Call me a fool. Or a liberal. Or whatever you like. That's just the way I see it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. I will call you

an open minded warm hearted LIBERAL. And more power to you.

[Maat]

197. Very well put!

I agree, Mythsaje!

[Cleita]

29. Thanks for saying this. Also many Americans don't realize

that settlers in the Southwest and California entered without permission of Mexico who governed those areas before we acquired them as American territories. Although we all know these lands were usurped by the Spaniards from the natives. So we are all descended from illegal immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. It needs to be said

And many in the 'send back the illegals' crowd need to study some history.

[Horse with no Name]

36. I may not agree with you on every issue

but can honestly say this is one we hit dead center on.
Nice post.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Thanks

Nice to hear we have common ground on something.

[SoCalDem]

41. the Bloody Shirt...and why it waves..

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-03-05 10:21 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3778392

Original message


We caught the bloody shirt, and are now waving it wildly.

The republicans cannot get a toehold in our ranks with issues that are ingrained in the party. Things like unions, equality, education and environmental issue, among others, are so much a part of us, that we do not splinter because of those issues....BUT

they have found one that DOES work. RACISM against immigration.

Each one of us has a responsibility to acknowledge their plan, and vow to resist it.

In times of plenty..plenty of jobs..plenty of educational opportunities...plenty of money...plenty of options, immigration goes pretty much unnoticed, and actually welcomed.

After a few years of republican rule, jobs just "magically disappear", and the Darwinist Racism bubbles to the surface:

"MY financial situation is bad because of....."
"I cannot find a job because of...."
"MY kid's classroom is crowded because of...."
"Gasoline costs so much because of....."

The 'fill in the blanks' part of those issues, and many others, has been occupied by many disparate groups. At times it's been the Irish, the Italians, the Blacks, the Mexicans,the Haitians,the Chinese, the Laotians, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians..etc etc etc..

The biggest nastiest ploy they are using now is the one where they seek out 'democrats' willing to go on the record supporting draconian measures against immigration (from Mexico mostly).

The approaches they use are varied in their range of subtlety, and range from the 'in-your-face' Minutemen camped on the border with coolers, sunglasses, beach umbrellas and guns...to the silver-tongued so-called statesmen who blame every community issue on 'illegal immigrants'.

It's called scapegoating, and it's been around for a LONG time.

The Mexican children are NOT causing your schools to suddenly disintegrate....republican oversight of education is what's wrong with it.

The Mexican workers are not driving wages down... the republican bosses, and the lax enforcement of labor laws are doing it.

The Mexicans are not driving the cost of housing up..if ANYTHING, their slave-wages are keeping the costs artificially LOWER than they might be.

The Mexicans are not a Homeland Security threat..in fact they are conned into JOINING our military as a citizenship-for-blood scheme..our recruiting numbers would be even WORSE without their participation.

Perhaps that fantastic $6 an hour job you always wanted, DID go to an undocumented worker, so in the next "immigrant sweep" , that job trimming palm trees or plucking chickens might once again become available..

Immigration is the issue the republicans have chosen to infiltrate our ranks.. Be vigilant and don't fall for it.

They know they cannot divide us on religion, choice, civil rights, job creation issues & unions, environment and others, but they are chipping away with immigration, because down deep, ALL people are scared when they think their livelihoods are challenged.

No one wants to lose their job, their homes or their chance at education.

Republicans are always trotting out real people like "Ann Ecdotal" and her friends to make their point that if only we would 'get tough on illegal immigration', all our problems would be solved..

Think back about ...oh....FORTY YEARS...Remember when the 'war on drugs' would solve all our problems? We all know how well that is going.

Immigrants come here because they CAN. There are jobs here or support systems in place (usually family who preceeded them). They pay into a system, using phony ID. Bosses accept that ID with a wink and a nod, not so they can pay their "legal" workers MORE,or provide better benefits with the money they save.. they accept the ID so THEY can keep the extra money saved.

As long as there is greed in America, there will always be "an immigration problem".

We will never "solve" the problem, because the people who COULD solve it, don't really think it's a problem.. They will NEVER admit it though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. Wow outstanding!

This needs to be a thread starter. :toast:

[SoCalDem]

125. It was :) Thanks

:) I had it in my bookmarks & thought it fit this one .

[Maestro]

225. Excellent post

Thanks once again SoCalDem!

[fleabert]

228. If we could nominate a single post within a thread...this would be it.

awesome. Please post this every day, or at least get it on the main page!!!

Thank you, and my non-white, non-US-born family thanks you.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

48. Sorry, this source doesn't bear inspection.

I won't call it what it is. Have YOU read this site?

[MsConduct]

60. Sorry, but I was just looking for statistics to illustrate the point of

the criminal illegal immigrant element. But, after you seemed so offended by what the truth might be, I did investigate the site further. IMHO there is nothing wrong with immigration reform.

[EFerrari]

75. Truth I can handle just fine. Rightwing propaganda, not so good.

You might check out this DOJ site if you want credible data.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrace.htm

[MsConduct]

88. The point I was TRYING to make is that there are a lot of

illegals who are in prison. The link you gave only shows the breakdown by race....I don't see the relevance. I'm not looking for some long drawn out debate, I was just making a statement. I said I worked for the Calif Dept of Corrections, in the parole office. I know what the numbers where then and the number of illegal immigrant felons was much higher than the legal ones. That isn't 'rightwing propaganda', it is the truth.

[EFerrari]

89. Fine. I used to translate for undocumented workers who were

held for weeks here in the SF Co. Jail, without a lawyer, without being able to call or write their families. Calif. Dept. of Corrections? 'Nuf said.

[MsConduct]

115. Dept of Corrections and SF Co jail are two different enities....

State Prison is after they've been convicted of a crime and before they are deported for being undocumented. What they went through in county jail has nothing to to with being CONVICTED felons. You just looking for an argument or what? Go elsewhere because I'm done trying to get my point across to you.

[EFerrari]

164. You're done, so I should leave? Entitlement at its finest.

Of course they're different entities, but the policies are the same. Sheesh.

This whole state is up to it's remote in hock to the Corrections lobby. We throw all kinds of vulnerable people in there, and spend seven times the money that it would take to actually fix the problem -- addiction, mental illness, immigration.

So, no. I'm not "just looking for an argument". I'm pointing out that your source is a wingnut site and that for some reason, with all of your considerable professional experience, you don't seem to know that, or to know to go to the DOJ site to prove a point which of course can't be proven. Because it's not true.

/typin'

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. There is also a disproportionate number of

African American males in our prisons. Does that make your average black male more likely to be a criminal? Go ahead and post that as a 'fact' and see how long you last here.

[MsConduct]

139. OMG NOT ANOTHER ONE MISSING THE F-ING POINT COMPLETELY!!

Race has NOTHING to do with what I posted. The only prejudice I have is against A**HOLES.....Oh and FLAMERS....Oh wait....they are the same thing. :banghead: I'm done now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Okay then why do you think there are so many

illegal immigrants in the penal system? Why so many African American males?

You stated something you claim is a fact. Now try to explain WHY this is the case.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. Give me a break!

Do you think we don't know WHERE the illegal immigrants are coming from??? Or what color they are???

Last time I checked, they weren't white guys from France. :eyes:

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maestro]

174. FAIR is racist! How many times do we need to tell you this.

See my post below.

[podnoi]

71. Blame this not on immigrants, but on us

I am involved with an (legal) immigrant community. I have definitely noticed that for many of them they understanding America to be foremost about MONEY. They often do not have the heritage to understand the more succinct values of our country.

That is because it is somewhat true. They see and read all the time about the life of the rich here, the values that promote getting rich at all costs. And they come and imitate. Most immigrants have solid values they bring from their homeland. And are willing to work hard for their money. But this probably does result in attracting a good number of criminals as well. I mean really, where is a criminal going to go to attempt to get rich? AMERICA! And who is to blame for that?

[Ms. Clio]

79. FAIR is not a credible source

Please find a peer-reviewed journal or some other reputable source that supports your assertion.

[Maestro]

137. Thank you.

I can't believe some of the links that get posted in a immigration thread!

[Maestro]

87. Sorry, try again.

This organization is xenophobic and run by a racist! Please see post #85.

www.fairus.org

Founded in 1978 by Michigan activist John Tanton of U.S. Inc. (see below), the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) blames immigrants for a host of social problems including crime, poverty, disease, urban sprawl, traffic jams, school overcrowding, racial tensions and potential terrorism.

Between 1985 and 1994, FAIR accepted some $1.2 million from the racist Pioneer Fund*, until bad publicity apparently convinced its leaders to desist. Another Pioneer Fund grant recipient, Garrett Hardin, was for years a FAIR adviser and remains a "board member emeritus." Hardin has opposed sending food aid to Africa because, he argues, that only encourages overpopulation. "Tragically, flights of food that save lives increase fertility — which increases the mistreatment of the environment." He also told OMNI magazine, "Looking at history with an open mind, you'll see that infanticide has been used as an effective population control."

FAIR has run ads that attacked then-Sen. Spencer Abraham (R.-Mich.), an Arab American, for supporting more visas for those with high-technology skills. The ads said Abraham's proposal would make it easier for Middle Eastern terrorists to strike, sparking widespread condemnation of what was seen as a race-based attack. On FAIR's board of advisors is Pat Choate, who helped white nationalist Patrick Buchanan take over the Reform Party prior to Buchanan's run for president in 2000.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. You have GOT to be kidding

FAIR is an incredibly racist group that is being represented by Phill Kline, the idiot AG in KS who has been trying to open private medical records. The ultra RW conservative who tried to unseat our Dem US congressman is one of their founding members. He held campaign rallies at a fundie church that hosted Jimmy Swaggart!! My God, do some research before you post any links from that group.

[Maestro]

158. You link to a racist site. You state that a sizeable percentage

of undocumented workers are criminals. We call bullshit and you get angry tell us we fucking miss the point completely. Now you missed the point. Sure some undocumented workers find their way to jails because they are criminals. However, given the large numbers of illegals that come here only a small percentage are coming here as criminals. Many just work and want to stay out of the way of most authorities for obvious reasons. Your claim is anecdotal at best; ignorant at worst.

[EC]

44. I agree, and while reading I had the thought...

what if many of us start leaving and going to Canada for freedom and all of a sudden there are too many, so they start imposing tough standards, I'm not sure if I would just go and try to sneak in, get a visa for a visit and stay, or go for it legally...Hummmmm, I just don't know...


Oh yeah, you forgot, Oh, hell, we even stole Mexico from the Mexicans...

[nomatrix]

45. The Bush totalization plan

"The Bush totalization plan would pay out billions in Social Security benefits to Mexicans for work they did in the United States using fraudulent Social Security numbers, something Americans would be jailed for doing. It would pay Social Security disability benefits to Mexicans who worked in the United States as little as three years.

The Bush totalization plan would lure even more Mexicans into the United States illegally in the hope of amnesty and eligibility for Social Security benefits. The Bush plan would even cover spouses and dependents of Mexican illegal immigrants who mighty never have lived in the United States.

Because few if any of the illegal immigrants have built up any equity in the Mexican retirement system, what is there to totalize? Totalization is a plan for U.S. taxpayers to end up assuming the entire burden.

When George W. Bush became President in 2001, the Mexican government expected the United States to pass amnesty (disguised as a guest worker plan and "regularizing" the entry of Mexicans). After Sept. 11, 2001, Mexico's national policy turned to increasing the number of its nationals working in the United States and getting them to qualify for all the social benefits and privileges Americans receive, from drivers licenses to Social Security and Social Security disability."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/ps20041115.shtml

[nomatrix]

46. I suspect you don't live in an area

where the want ads are "bi-lingual preferred?"

These aren't jobs "americans won't do" but because of the heavy shift of "non english" speaking into an area, most jobs that deal with the public are given preference.

No insurance? No problem. Illegals will be treated and billed to medicare or medicaid. Let's see a citizen who lost their job get that treatment.

Food stamps? In most cities with illegals, check the percentages of WIC subsidizing.

Can you afford college? Check who gets a break on education.

All these benefits are paid for by TAX PAYERS. So when YOUR job gets outsourced and your looking at the want ads, or have to go to the hospital, or need to train for a new education, see how your civic duties has come to bite you. Oh, and when you have to file bankruptcy for those hospital bills, YOU CAN'T! You'll loose everything first.

[EFerrari]

51. I don't know how to break this to you, but this country has

always been multilingual.

And, undocumented workers who use someone else's SS number or a fake one, pay into FICA and can NEVER collect unemployment or disability.

They are often turned over to the authorities on payday.

They can't report crimes such as buglary, or assault or rape or false imprisonment (as in slave labor) because they will be deported.

And, they have no say at all in the political process they endure.

In case you haven't noticed, these people are not the ones outsourcing jobs. They are trying to live.

Sheeeeeeeeeesh. Get a fact or a clue.

[nomatrix]

52. Didn't you read the article?

Don't play me, with get a fact or clue.

Go take an HR Block course and do some taxes. You'll find out just how many fake SS numbers collect Earned Income tax credits. Go talk to some tax consultants and find out.
(BTW, you call their house, no one speaks english, till you say your income tax check is in. "Thanks, I'll be right down".)

I served on a jury, trying an illegal who stalked the mother and his child, who had a restraining order. 5 time repeat offender. No child support. Had to have an interpreter after 10 years in the country. BTW, the mother wasn't bi-lingual. Still didn't get deported. Why, he'll just come back.

Worked the Kerry Campaign phone calls to lots of immigrant homes who did vote, but really didn't understand what they were voting for. Not unlike those who were fluent in english.
BTW, legal immigrants aren't happy with illegal immigrants so it has nothing to do with race.

Sorry, but your "They are trying to live" sounds like political B.S. The world is full of people oppressed. How many illegals will be enough? Supposedly, 10 million right now. 100 million, you'll be chanting "I paid FICA every year, how come there's no money left?"
Do you think they'll be sticking up for you?

You obviously never worked in a factory. There are plenty of U.S. companies that border on sweatshops. You finally get management to show an ounce of respect for the workers....and they leave the country for a place that'll do it for nothing, but charge the same for the product, even though it's poorer quality.
Or the company stays but says bi-lingual prefered so they don't have to pay minimum wage.

Here's a better example, a union job breaks contract with the union employees, so they form a picket line. The company takes scab workers.
Reagan and the airtraffic controllers.

I get really tired of the "racist" remarks from citizen who don't love this country enough to stand up for our hard earned minimum wage jobs, that our parents worked hard to get for us. Most generational blue collar workers I know, learned by example how hard it was for their parents during the depression.

There's a real trend in this country. Ask around. How many people do you know in their 50's who have been replaced. Not outsourced. Just they could get someone to do it cheaper. You worked hard for years for a company & no respect or loyalty, just dumped. Years of building a company, being a part of it's growth...

Sorry, I'm not going to get on this sympathy wagon. We need work right now. We need to give the jobs to the people who have supported this country as taxpayers, as voters, as soldiers, for generations.

The troups are coming home to no work. Why don't you carry a sign for them?

Immigration laws came into effect during the depression when work was scarce, Americans came first. Illegal means just what it says. You want to see the illegal immigration end, cut off the giveaways, like food stamps, citizen by birth to illegal parents, medicare hospitalization.....

Do you think YOU could just walk into any country like they do and get what they get here while breaking the law?

[EFerrari]

53. American History 1A

"Do you think YOU could just walk into any country like they do and get what they get here while breaking the law?"

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

59. Um...that article was written by Phyllis Schafly at Townhall.com

She's not biased. Not one bit.
:sarcasm: :rofl:

[Maestro]

85. You need to get educated and stop drinking the kool-aid

You've posted a link to one of the worst ticks in today's society and you are spewing out myths about immigrants. I work with them. They are not who you are painting them to be!

Myths

More Myths

And even more places debunking the myths that Phylis loves to rant about

And if you actually want to do some research, don't get info from these groups however nice they may sound to you. Some of these groups are even known hate groups in disguise.

Bigoted anti-immigration groups and hate groups from the SPL Center

[datasuspect]

135. "hard earned minimum wage jobs?"

i guess we should be grateful that there IS a minimum wage, eh?

[fleabert]

230. I thnk your life would be a lot easier and happier if you would just learn

spanish. that seems to be a big issue for you.

did you know that a majority of the rest of the world is, at the very least, bi-lingual? We are an ethnocentric bunch that waits until high school to try and teach kids a second language, when infancy and toddlerhood are much more effective times. My 2 friends who are from Italy speak 5 languages each! My friend from Hungary speaks 3. My friends in Mexico speak at least two, if not three.

sheesh, get over the bi-lingual thing already.

[philosophie_en_rose]

72. Actually, I live in an area with plenty of illegal Canadians.

Coming here with their fancy Canadian education, skipping across the border for their free health care. Those Frenchies are sucking the soul from American taxpayers! :sarcasm:

Companies have every right to advertise for multilingual workers. Adapt. Learn a language.

Your information is completely incorrect. Speaking as to Washington, undocumented workers get almost no benefits from DSHS, the Housing Authority, and other programs.

Save your outrage. The reason that undocumented women receive WIC is because the child will be a citizen. If there are public benefits, they're for the children. Those kids are every bit as much a LEGAL citizen as anyone.

[Ms. Clio]

83. What a load of bullshit -- sounds like something from a rightwing e-mail

A rant worthy of Free Republic, wow.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. The way you spell LOSE

is a dead giveaway. I am just sorry you put it in the last sentence so I had to read the whole thing before I realized this is just more RW talking points.

No insurance? My son (who is a US born citizen) had a medical emergency that ended up costing nearly $30,000. He was unemployed and uninsured. He not only got excellent treatment, but one doctor donated his services and the hospital helped him find a donor to pay his bill. No tax dollars were involved. So there is a citizen who got treatment which did not cost him a dime. And he did not have to declare bankruptcy.

College? In state residents in my state get a discount on tuition, the same discount the state legislature recently voted to give to children of illegal immigrants who went to high school in this state. No group is getting better treatment than any other group.

LOSE is the opposite of WIN.

LOOSE is the opposite of TIGHT.

[Telly Savalas]

147. So even if the dubious claims that "illegals" are receiving assloads more

social services than U.S. citizens were true, isn't the obvious fucking solution to expand the social services provided to citizens, or I did I go to Rightwing Libertarian Nutbar Underground by mistake?

[Maestro]

165. I am eating cereal and it is now all over my monitor.

Thanks I needed some comic relief in this thread, but wait, what you say is true! Should I continue laughing? :rofl: or :eyes:?

[EFerrari]

172. OMG.

:rofl:

[fleabert]

231. LOL!

Rightwing Libertarian Nutbar Underground :rofl:

[fleabert]

229. are you kidding?

it has been well said by others, and plainly said by me that both legal and illegal immigrants pay into the tax system of the US, far more than they take out.

and, will I really loose everything first? or will I lose everything?

pet peeves of mine: poorly researched posts and loose/lose misuse. sorry.

[Maestro]

63. That article is completely discredited.

It's written by one of the worst radical reichwingers there are, Phyllis Schlafly. Don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth. She's poison!

[nomatrix]

49. Maybe you have recent HS grads

experiencing this job shift? Until this hits your area you'll be giddy about your ethnic food aisle. It wears off when you can't get a job there because you don't speak the language, in your own country.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Once again, the mask has slipped.

Concerned about fair labor practices? Sounds real Liberal. Right.

Then, you go on about people speaking another language. Sorry, quite a few of them may have ancestors who crossed that river long before mine got on the boat to cross the Atlantic. They may be native born citizens or legal residents--but you assume they're "illegal" because they look different from you & speak another language.

Hint: Quite a few of "them" can speak English, as well. Are they talking about you? If you catch the phrase pinche gabacho, that may be the case.

[datasuspect]

134. hijole!

that was funny.

[Scout]

56. learn to speak another language...

Spanish is fairly easy for English speakers to learn.

[gaia_gardener]

185. Pardon me while I laugh

I moved to an area of the country where people who have lived here for generations speak little english. Why should they? We annexed their land.

Yes, all the jobs want bi-lingual workers. A good portion of people in stores speak spanish more than english (and lots of spanglish). My co-workers regulary speak spanish at work.

But you know what? I still have it easier than the average person. I'm white and educated. Just being white gives me a foot in the door that many hispanics will never have. A co-workers son wants to change his name from Juan Carlos Martinez to John Charles Martin and in many ways, I can't blame him. A resume from Juan Carlos Martinez in any other area of the country is much more likely to go into the trash than one from John Martin.

Is it hard to learn another language? You bet your ass. I'm starting to pick out words here and there, but I can't even get around if I need to. The solution? Start teaching languages earlier. I'm hoping my kids get lots of exposure and pick it up. Some studies have shown that learning just one second language will make it exponentially easier to learn a third language and so on.

I'll admit, I felt a little sorry for myself when I realized I couldn't even work at wal-mart, but then I got a reality check and realized that wal-mart wouldn't hire me anyway, I have a college education and I'm clearly not a "good fit" for wal-mart. I also went across into Mexico and saw all the little kids begging. The women who have young babies but look like they should be grandmothers because they are so malnourished.

[fleabert]

232. learn another language for God's sake!

He's bilingual too, in case you didn't know...multi-lingual, actually.

[Il_Coniglietto]

244. Less than a week since I graduated, actually, so...

I figure I can speak to this. I have the luxury of being bilingual (thanks to my once-illegal, Spanish-speaking mom) and guess what? So do a bunch of my friends...who not only speak their native English, but Chinese and/or Korean and often conversational Spanish or French as well. We picked up on languages at home and now we can learn others as well. A bunch of my friends are of pure English descent, but can speak Spanish near fluently because it was offered to us starting in kindergarten. We're lucky to have it offered to us, but how is this somehow our fault?

Why bother complaning about people who can speak multiple languages? It ain't a cakewalk to get it all down, but you work hard so you can reap the benefits (in this case, a better-paying job). It's no different than someone with advanced computer skills or the ability to speak well in public. The more you can offer, the more your employer will want you.

And one little thing about my "lower-class, can't speak English, paid $6.75/hour" mom :sarcasm:...she received a better education than I did. In her high school, she could (and still can) recite the names of not only all the countries, their capitals and locations, but states and their caps in the United States as well. Better than any of my classmates or I can. Funny, ain't it?

[alphafemale]

50. The time to worry is when people STOP trying to come here. nt

[Kolesar]

61. The population of the US increased by 35 million in the 1990s

It was not due to a "baby boom" either. The US population pretty much has a replacement birthrate.

[Maestro]

138. So you're blaming this on the lack of birth control?

Abstinence education doesn't work? or, no wait, this can't be, the fact that the 35 million is due to illegal immigration? Goodness gracious, the things you hear in an immigration thread. :eyes:

[Kolesar]

241. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID SO QUIT TWISTING MY WORDS. I suppose this is your

...attempt at sarcasm, but I cannot be sure. Your sentence structure is poor.

BTW, I have a reference for the 35,000,000 increase in US Population in the 1990s: Dye and McManus "Politics in States and Communities", 11th edition, c 2003. "The total population of the US grew by 13.3% between 1990 and 2000."

At this rate, the population will double in six decades. The US population will reach 600 Million by 2065. That is about the population that India had when I was young.

Mexico's population about doubled twice in the last century due to high birthrates. Since both countries have managed their border as a rather porous border, I foresee a continuing high trend of undocumented immigration.

[Pockets]

62. "Irish need not apply"

Our priest was telling a story about his father, who was Irish, encountering the signs "Irish need not apply" here in Chicago.

It is a valid comparison to the type of discrimination we're seeing now.

I understand people's frustration, but blaming illegals for all our economic woes is ridiculous. The problems our economy is facing is due to the administration's failed policies. Illegals who collect public are only substitutes for citizens collecting the same public aid. The low paying jobs are the problem, not the illegals who take them.

Bush loves that people are blaming illegals and not HIM for the economy.

On a side note, another problem I see is people who live 20 or so in one house, enabling them to get by on minimum wage. That's what illegals tend to do, but I blame that more on unenforced housing regulations.

[Bridget Burke]

65. And when the Irish came over....

All you needed to get in was a negative TB test. Immigration Law was not nearly as profitable in those days.

I hear the tenements could get pretty crowded. But let's not blame the landlords!

[Pockets]

67. Housing

Landlords and unenforced housing regulations really are to blame on many economic problems.

People can live on less money when they are sharing a house with 20 other people. However, then they drive down wages for the rest of us. They are more likely to develop health and sanitation problems. They cause more wear and tear on the property. They are more likely to share identities like credit and driver's licenses being so cozy with one another. They are more likely to be wandering the streets with such a crowded home to go back to.

But if a politician runs on the platform of enforcing such regulations, he'd probably be branded a racist.

But the issue is not related to illegal immigrants but the way our communities are regulated.

[Bridget Burke]

77. They have the gall to be on the streets?

And they get "cozy" with one another?

They ought to move into mini-mansions & watch their big-screen TV's with their nuclear families. Like real Amurkins!

[EFerrari]

169. "No players, dogs or masterless men." -- London, 1588

This is an old, old debate, isn't it?

[grace0418]

64. What is all this "illegal" business about anyway?

Doesn't Ellis Island say "give me your tired, your poor..."? Does it include the caveat "as long as they go through the proper channels and get on a waiting list"? Who decided what was legal and what wasn't? It really wasn't that long ago that people were coming here and taking land from the native people living here without a second thought. Were they legal?

And the droves of immigrants that came here in the last 150 years, were they any more or less legal? Many of these people were our grandparents or great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents. I know my grandmother came here around 1910 for a better life. Would it be right for me, her granddaughter, to decide that if she were to come today she may not be welcome?

How is it that so many Americans feel fine about taking the citizenship given to them by virtue of their grandparents risking (or giving up) everything to come here, only to turn around and pull up the ladder behind them? I don't understand what gives this generation the right.

I don't claim to have the answer, I really don't. But I just don't feel right being invited to the party and asked to shut the door behind me.

[Gormy Cuss]

68. This in a nutshell is the problem for liberals

We, for the most part, don't like the idea of closing the door behind us. We aren't threatened by an influx of people who may look different, have a different faith or speak a different language.

As to your probably rhetorical question of whether our grandparents were any more or less legal, they were more legal. Even at Ellis Island there were many turned away based on existing stipulations for entry. Another poster mentioned TB; there were other tests to weed out whatever constituted undesirable in a given era.

Our current immigration laws limit access based on country of origin among other things. We don't enforce them, so the question is, why don't we change the laws if they no longer suit our national interests? We have institutionalized a huge underclass because of these laws and the effects ripple through our society in terms of wage suppression and job opportunities for everyone. There are costs in education and public health if the funding is set based on the legal population only.

We have laws to penalize employers and I say enforce them now. Raid the corporate farms and factories. Go after the cheapskate surburbanites who crow about how it doesn't make sense to cut their own grass when they can hire an illegal for so little, or complain that their nannies are teaching the kids bad English.

Alternatively, we could just change the immigration laws to restore sanity to the process and make it easier for foreigners to work and live here on the same legal footing as the rest of us.

[podnoi]

69. Do we really want life like in China?

My concern is quality of life, not nationality or origin. I know it is somewhat selfish, but I enjoy less crowded places to escape, less problems with congestion.
100 years ago there were fairly unlimited resources and land. America has changed.

Maybe I am selfish in this way, but I kind of like being in a lower population density country.

[Bridget Burke]

78. Overpopulation is a world problem.

We can't make the USA a Gated Community.

Perhaps you could move to Greenland.

[DeaconBlues]

100. why don't you just tell podnoi to go back to Russia?

Its a sad day when DUers use right-wing language against someone who disagrees with them over an issue.

But I guess I should be pleasantly surprised. At least your reaction is a step up from the rest of the pro-corporate, pro-illegal immigration crowd here, whose only defense for their indefensible position is to point fingers and cry "racism!"

[Bridget Burke]

104. I was just suggesting a place without crowds....

He needn't leave the country. I hear parts of North Dakota have not yet been overrun.

[grace0418]

84. We'd all like less crowded places, but the fact is that overpopulation

has made that less and less realistic. I understand your desire, I have that desire too, but I recognize it is in fact selfish.

[EFerrari]

177. The Lakota Sioux would agree with you.

And in a way, I'm not being flip. I like to choose crowds or no crowds, too.

There remains the ethical issue of the greater good, and what we call liberal values, like inclusion.

[fleabert]

234. then move somewhere no one else wants to live.

and don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

and yes, you are selfish, since you asked.

[fleabert]

233. abso-fucking-lutely agree with you...100% nt.

[grace0418]

242. Thanks fleabert

I hope we're not in the minority.

[entanglement]

73. My take: why "illegal immigration" is here to stay

Everyone gets something

1) Cheap labor conservatives get, well, cheap / exploitable labor
2) Racists, xenophobes, and social conservatives get someone to blame for just about every problem in society.
3) The SS fund gets badly needed cash
4) Consumers get cheap products
5) Body smugglers and associated scum get to ply their fiendish trade
6) The Border Patrol gets a reason to exist
7) Vicente Fox gets rid of Mexico's poor
8) The poor immigrants get an upgrade from a nightmarish life to a miserable one.

Sounds like a win for everybody, doesn't it?

[Kolesar]

74. It is a bigger problem for the conservatives

The xenophobe Pat Buchanan cons are at opposition with the business owners who exploit the immigrants for low wage work like landscaping and "hospitality", aka hotel and motel workers. Buchanan predicts it will divide the party. We shall see about that. I report, you decide.

[Walt Starr]

81. I don't mind people wanting a better life and immigrating into this countr

all I ask is that they do it within the confines of the law. This protects everybody involved on all levels and ends the exploitation which those who hire illegal immigrants at lower than fair wages do!

[fleabert]

236. It would be wonderful if our policies for legal immigration did not favor

the already wealthy. Add that change and I agree with you.

my family was poor, and immigrated her illegally. They are now citizens (most of them), but it was easier for them to risk their lives and to fight and claw their way in illegally, than to follow the legal channels. Now, my friend who lives in Monterrey MX, who is a millionaire? He had no problem securing the paperwork and visas in a months time, also bought land no problem.

[Emendator]

82. Supposing

that in democracy, the people own the country, they have the right to keep outsiders from coming in. The uncontrolled border is also an excuse for the corrupt Mexican government to put off reforming that country in a healthy way.

[Maestro]

86. Please see post #85

I don't want to get it buried in the middle of all the discussion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. Another great thread starter

Those are great links. Don't let them get buried. Start a thread with them.

[Maestro]

133. Thanks

but I fear if I start another thread, it will just pull more ill-will out of the wordworkings.

Hey, but there is this archived thread of mine.

My old immigration thread

[madeline_con]

90. So they literally risk their lives ...

to sneak across the border and come here..."

Are the border guards shooting at them as they jump the ditch?

[Maestro]

97. Ever heard of coyotes

who care little for the immigrants and usually bring them over in deplorable conditions. If a few die, who cares, right? :sarcasm: Also, read this. It doesn't get much better once they are here.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=505

[madeline_con]

148. The four young men, all students at Cherokee High School

could have done this to a citizen.

And they weren't coyotes.

[Maestro]

163. If you are going to tell me something of which I need

prior knowledge, please provide a link. I have no idea what you are talking about. If it is in this thread, which post?

[madeline_con]

198. oh for the love of Pete.

You provided a link about some freaks in Georgia terrorizing a guy AFTER asking me if I'd heard of coyotes.

What did the High School guys have to do with coyotes?

That was my point. Those guys could have done that to anyone, they're obviously maladjusted.

[Maestro]

213. I skipped down to "Hotbed of Hate"

and read just a few paragraphs so the Cherokee High School thing didn't make a connection, sorry.

But to answer your question, nothing. My link was to show you that these people face crime and discrimination everywhere including the coyotes. The coyotes are obvious. I was posting a link to other incidents, but since the coyotes reference is not obvious to you, they are human traffickers. They bring across undocumented workers at exorbitant prices, sometimes putting the workers into indentured servitude to pay off the passage. They also care nothing for the lives of these people. Many die undocumented deaths. Others are saved by chance. The latest one I know of that made national news was right here in Texas when 75+ undocumented workers were found in the back of semi, locked in, dying of heat. It was something like 120+ degrees inside. I can't remember how many died that day. The coyotes were found and convicted. They are now serving time.

[madeline_con]

221. Boy do I feel stupid!

The coyote thing flew over my head like an F-16 at the Daytona 500, but I remembered having heard of them once you explained.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion, civility and patience.

[gaia_gardener]

186. I know a guy who came across a decade ago as a

teenager. He was in a group of 5 and they were shot at and one was killed. It does happen.

It's sad. The best chance for a teenager is to risk being shot at, cross desert areas with little water and all so he can get a minimum wage job and hope for a better life. Of course, it is better than selling chiclets in a border town.

[fleabert]

237. desert conditions, lack of water, food, shelter, snakes, scorpions,

flash floods in lowlands, drowning crossing the Rio Grande... yes, they risk their lives.

[madeline_con]

99. Yet another reply, sorry.

How much would produce, gardeners and maids cost if the illegals, "guest workers" (PLEASE), were paid a living wage?

No one could afford to eat.

[DeaconBlues]

102. so the answer to how to keep food prices artificially low in this country

is to keep a subclass here who is literally kept in wage-slavery?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

113. So in one breath you want to keep them out and in another you want

to continue to assure they won't be paid a living wage?

[madeline_con]

146. Look, it's a complicated issue.

If they could make enough to live on, there wouldn't be so much of a drain on certain states' economies.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

217. YOu haven't proved that point. One Wal Mart costs a community more

in social services than migrant workers do.

[madeline_con]

222. And I'm sure

that can be proven. Have a great evening.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

224. It can be proven easier than any points you've made on this thread

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1570132

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. It's really a shame to be reading some of the racist, scapegoating crap

that is posted on this thread which is supposed to be on a progressive site.

People need to ask WHY are LEGAL immigration numbers set at where they are for certain countries. Is it because Mexicans are lowering your wages? No...look elsewhere..visas are granted to OTHER nations everyday to drive down wages in the tech and service sector.

Blaming the weakest is not a progressive value and citing Phyllis Schlafley and other known racists isn't either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. This was a great discussion last night

Then this morning the freepers ate their Wheaties :)

Alert is our friend. I predict a few TSs if this discussion keeps up.

[Bridget Burke]

106. In related news, the Minutemen plan to come to Goliad....

Invoking the history of the Texas Revolution, about 150 residents of this historic town gathered Monday to prepare for patrols to stop the flow of illegal immigrants through the region.

The audience, many in cowboy hats, listened quietly for about an hour as leaders of the Arizona Minutemen explained how they organized a patrol along their own border in April. The group, now called the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, plans to do the same in all four southern border states in October.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3233905

Some objections were raised at the meeting. Benny Martinez was concerned about being hassled--his family has only been in the area since 1731. Sheriff Robert de la Garza was interviewed; some locals have started neighborhood watches, but he did not encourage outsiders.

Of course, Goliad is 200 miles from the Border. But most of our Border is on private land--could it be that the landowners would not give permission?

(During the Texas Revolution, Texians held the old Presidio in Goliad. They surrendered after the Alamo fell, but Santa Ana ordered them shot, anyway. So all Anglo settlers started fleeing Eastward--the famous "Runaway Scrape." Santa Ana finally met up with Sam Houston.)

[Maestro]

110. Yeah, these little men piss me off.

And I hate when people, even here at DU, try to defend these repukes because what they do, while it may be legal, is antagonistic and does nothing to help alleviate any perceived problems. Going to Goliad is very symbolic and they know exactly what they are doing. Idiots!

[Bridget Burke]

111. Yes, but Goliad is symbolic of a big defeat....

The Texians there did not go to reinforce the Alamo--their numbers would probably not have made a big difference. Despite their surrender, most of them died, anyway.

Ignacio Seguin Zaragoza was born in Goliad. As a General, he won the Battle of Puebla--celebrated as Cinco de Mayo.

[EFerrari]

166. This whole thread should time out and go watch

"The Milagro Beanfield War". Have you seen that?

"Hey, your mother is throwing rocks again."

"No, I got rid of all the rocks. Those are only stones."

:)

[Maestro]

176. I am just stunned at what I am reading.

I haven't seen so much ignorance. People claiming things without sources and when they post sources they are reichwing funded, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

178. I know. The Other has been deployed very successfully

over the last few years as an immediate threat.

I wish it was 1970 again -- hair, collars, disco and all.

It'll pass.

On edit: here, have a turtle:



:hi:

[suffragette]

226. Great film

Then follow that with Gregory Nava's "El Norte" and "My Family/ Mi Familia."

For a read there's "The Autobiography of Delfina Cuero." She recounts how the many of the Diegueño (also named Kumeyaay) people were forced off their land in Southern California, with many ending up in Mexico and not allowed to return to the San Diego area.

[Bridget Burke]

243. Add "Lone Star" to the list.

"Forget the Alamo."

[Ikonoklast]

180. The guys I used to work with were having this same discussion

one morning in the shop over coffee. We basically represented a cross-section of immigrants, Black, Hispanic, Europeans of all nationalities when on of our co-workers, who is a full-blooded Ojibwa Indian, came in and said, "As far as I am concerned, all you assholes are illegal immigrants and I sure wish you'd leave." We laughed our asses off because we knew he was right.

[EFerrari]

181. What he said.

:)

What's funny is that in most native American philosophies and belief systems, you don't own land. It owns you.

So, to some people this whole discussion is just nuts. I guess I feel like that most of the time.

[Maat]

187. I quite agree.

I've been in Cal for 47 years (my entire life).

Things haven't changed.

I welcome the immigrants; they have made my state strong; they've been hardworkers providing excellent service to Californians for forever.

They don't get credit for the social security they've paid in most of the time.

And I say - if their child is born here - that child is an American citizen - and they get to stay here too.

And we provide the services that Californians have enjoyed for my entire life too - to all. I'll get the money - we'll stop giving Wal-Mart subsidies.

[Bravo411]

207. Excellent post ....

and I think a bigger problem isn't people coming here to look for work, but in sending jobs to other countries, i.e. outsourcing.

I used to work in the tech field, but now I can't even find a help-desk job. If I have to call tech-support for something that I can't do on my end, the call is routed to India.

[Bravo411]

208. Excellent post ....

and I think a bigger problem isn't people coming here to look for work, but in sending jobs to other countries, i.e. outsourcing.

I used to work in the tech field, but now I can't even find a help-desk job. If I have to call tech-support for something that I can't do on my end, the call is routed to India.

[Maestro]

220. Indeed! -nt

[Moderator]

245. Locking....

This conversation has run its course.


DU Moderator