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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:17 PM
Original message
DSM - I fear we may have been fucked like we've never been fucked before
Edited on Mon Jun-20-05 07:23 PM by Husb2Sparkly
Please, before you go through this, I sincerely hope I am wrong, wrong, wrong ....... but let me share my fears ......

I just finished listening to Michael Smith, the UK reporter who broke the Downing Street Minutes story. David Gregory was hosting in place of Tweety and I think Gregory allowed Smith a fair and unvarnished airing of the story.

So what worries me?

Smith says he got the story from the source. The source, he says, gave him the **original** documents. He further says no one in the British government has disputed the authenticity of the documents, although they (UK Gov't insiders) have cutely avoided saying the common interpretation is correct.

When he came back to the paper with these original documents, he says *the lawyers* told him to photocopy the originals, retain and work from the photocopies, and return the originals to their source. The rationale for this was to make the photocopies the property of the newspaper and thereby avoid any chance that the British government could ask for (demand) them back.

Now, if you know anything about corporate newspapers, 'the lawyers' work for the parent organization, generally, and not the actual news organization. And who is that paper's parent organization?

Rupert Murdoch.

So .... Mr. Smith has the memos typed (and he said, specifically, using a typewriter - which seems hugely odd to me, and I am unable to think of a reason to do that, if, indeed, that is what happened). He says he had them typed so as to shield from public scrutiny the source name. He felt that the source could be identified (by elimination, he said) from the source documents, original or photocopy.

Then there's the case of the odd, or not, phraseology of the memo - 'fixing the intelligence around the policy'. A study in interpretive ambiguity of ever there was one.

Now ....... imagine, if you will, a Robert Ludlum novel. The documents were fabricated from whole cloth and given to Mr. Smith as authentic. Or perhaps Mr. Smith is an actor in this plot. In any case, the entire world gets all frothy at the mouth over this smoking gun. Hearings are held. Righteous indignation is based solely on these documents.

And the whole thing is sham. Rathergate with a twist. The Rathergaters allow us to shout the story from the rooftops. And we have.

But is there another shoe that they will not allow to fall, but rather, will use to pummel us into complete submission and relegate anyone who said the documents were what we said they were completely useless. Neutered like no cat or dog has ever been neutered by the Humane Society.

Have we been fucked or have I been thinking and hoping far too much and far too deeply?

Please, God, let my fears be completely unfounded. Let me be no more than a an old loon. A clown. Skilled at nothing more than squirting seltzer down people's pants. Please ... prove me wrong.

Edit to add the word 'may' in the title.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh stop.
You are saying the man does not know his sources? Stop.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'm not *saying* anything. I'm speculating.
And to know one's source's identity is quite different from knowing one's source's motives.
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Isn't "Michael Smith" the same journalist as the Rathergate memo?
N/T
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Oh get real.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. lol



:rofl:

















;
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. ROTFLMAO!!!
Well you just outed yourself. :rofl:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Well, then, stop speculating on this,...
,...cause you're just spreadin' unnecessary grief and FEAR over information that has already been confirmed by several sources and by several journalists.

So, please, stop it. You feed the trolls and RW freaks by doing this "speculation". Please, please,...stop.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't matter, either way we are screwed
the MSM could care less about this story

watch, nothing will come from it
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Original message
The point of DSM is that justification to go into Iraq to enforce UN
resolutions was made the minute the 'war' ended in three weeks or so. The US never intended to leave Iraq, and there is no UN resolution allowing for our 'occupation' from what I've been able to determine.

And that is the whole point; we went in TO STAY. Oil concessions (see www.judicialwatch.org site for maps of the Iraqi oilfields from 2001 DOE/Cheney FOIA).

This all goes back to 9-11-01 and THAT, my friends, is what scares the livin' * out of * and Company.
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. WE GOT PUNKED!
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Really?
"The Foreign Office yesterday acknowledged the documents were genuine"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1308368,00.html

PM Blair: "And let me remind you that that memorandum was written before we then went to the United Nations..."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050607-2.html#

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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Take off the tin-foil
And back away from the tv slowly. I don't think these documents are fake. The British govt has admitted they are real. Why would they do that if they weren't?
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've been thinking the exact same thing.
Your fears could come true regarding these documents.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The documents have been independently
authenticated by several news organizations. Check Rawstory, they have the info.
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bj2110 Donating Member (802 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. You all are off yer rockers. There is no reason for the British
government not to deny the authenticity of the content of the documents other than the fact of total authenticity.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. So Prime Minister Tony Blair and the UK Foreign Office are LYING?
"The Foreign Office yesterday acknowledged the documents were genuine"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1308368,00.html

PM Blair: "And let me remind you that that memorandum was written before we then went to the United Nations..."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050607-2.html#

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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. KICK! - THIS IS THE ONE TO READ!
"The Foreign Office yesterday acknowledged the documents were genuine"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1308368,00.html
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. My guess would be that they were typed on a typewriter
so that HIS version would not be able to be altered.
Pretty smart to me.
The fact that the originals still exist is heartening--because whoever the source is wanted them out there, therefore they are accessible regardless of what Rupert Murdoch wants done with them.
However, I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV--but I would think if these were distributed by the government that they would be considered the property of the person that they were given to.:shrug:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I'm no lawyer either, but I drink with a few of them ......
.... which is completely irrelevant. But I should think that the government documents were given out to this reporter with **no** permission for the giver to have done so. Presumably this would make them remain the property of the government.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. that is exactly what the Rawstory article said
they were the property of the government and had to be returned.

I just watched the clip over at Dembloggers.com and am even more convinced of their authenticity. I do not question them at all.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. You may be onto something there...not having them digitized would help
preserve their own 'originality', as it were. Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. MANY UK govt officials have ORIGINAL SETS of these documents.
This was not one person who got one set of originals.

There were MANY officials of the UK government who received original sets of these documents.

If I send a memo out to 42 DUers, then 42 DUers ahve original sets of my memo.
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. At least this thread will be a good freeper flush
Edited on Mon Jun-20-05 07:24 PM by xray s
Recommended every 30 days or 100,000 posts.

Watch 'em come out of the woodwork.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. he heheh
:toast:
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Looks like there might me one in here already
Did you see it? :nuke:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Yeppers.
:D
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
49. Added him to my buddy list!
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. Newsweek and other news outlets have had them verified
by sources other than those used by Michael Smith as they make clear in their articles about the various documents.

Newsweek:

June 15 - Two senior British government officials today acknowledged as authentic a series of 2002 pre-Iraq war memos stating that Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons program was "effectively frozen" and that there was "no recent evidence" of Iraqi ties to international terrorism—private conclusions that contradicted two key pillars of the Bush administration's public case for the invasion in March 2003.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8234762/site/newsweek/

MSNBC

But now, war critics have come up with seven more memos, verified by NBC News.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8207731
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Original message
This scam only works with the audience on your side.
We almost always agree but I'm going to give you some fucking hope!

Nobody has denied that these are accurate. This is not an issue in Great Britain (at least not that I've seen). There may, probably are, laws against taking a document or photocopy of this material (somebody should find this out).

But here is the real explanation: For a magic trick to work the audience needs to suspend belief, they have to accept the illusion and the illusionist even though they're aware that nobody is making the Brooklyn Bridge disappear or the rabbit come out of the magician's hat. This audience, the American public, has already made up its mind. Bush is bullshit.

Sit back and enjoy...this IS the end of little Rico!

And while you're at it...

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

Contact the DNC and Tell Them to PREVENT Election Fraud
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yanno ...... Sparkly and I were eatin' sushi out on the deck and listenin'
to this story on Hardball. This little scenario of mine just wooshed in out of the trees somewhere and embedded iteslf in my sad ittle brain.

**I** think the DSM is the smokiest smoking gun we've ever had. But I want to be DAMNED sure we're right. Not just a supposition we *may* be right.

This little thought of mine scared the shit out of me. Hence my close in the OP inviting people to disprove the thesis.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Your hunch is correct. They're trying this spin. One trick pony Rove...
And Matthews gets paid by GE. He knows how to get his bonus and stay on the air (remember, GE/NBC canned Donahue with ratings 3-4 x's their other "talent just because he was liberal).

They don't own our minds yet. There's a run on red pills. Remember this:

Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

Get that glass of whatever and let's open our eyes, for those who have eyes to see, see the truth; for those who have ears to hear, hear the truth.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. If your logic were correct, why not then release the more favorable
"minutes" from the meetings to the news media? If there were a conspiracy by the Murdoch news agency to conceal the original documents or to conceal the source, why not just throw the whole story away? I thought Michael Smith was credible in his interview on Hardball. I don't think that his credibility is enough to carry the day. Gettng closer though.

The only thing that is a sham are the claims of George Bush and Tony Blair with or without DSM.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. No. The authenticity of the memo is not in question anywhere but
in right wing blogs, and not even in all of them because Blair has responded to it.

I think it's fine.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. He said specifically using a typewriter? Is there any chance that he
actually claimed to have "typed" them and did not specify a "typewriter"? I haven't read what you posted elsewhere (not doubting your word here, but it's common to refer, as you know, to using a computer/word processor keyboard as "typing."

Just wondering if there could be some confusion in the wording and/or terminology...
:eyes:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I've seen no transcript
you could be right. But a typewrioter is what I thought I heard ... and that struck me as damned odd.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Check out Raw Story
They have the back story

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Backstory_Confirming_the_Downing_Street_0614.html

“It was these photocopies that I worked on, destroying them shortly before we went to press on Sept 17, 2004,” he added. “Before we destroyed them the legal desk secretary typed the text up on an old fashioned typewriter.”
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:28 PM
Original message
one problem
Our MSM had blacked out this story for over a month. People still do not know about it. If we were to be truly duped by this, wouldnt it make sense to have the story out there and then prove its false?? Why hide it for over a month???

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
29. That's an easy one to answer .......
...... to lend a feel of autheticity.
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sundancekid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. H2S, time for a couple glasses of that Chianti vino ... cool up ... though
the same thoughts have shivered me timbers, in this story there are multiple recipients of the briefing papers, memos, etc. and the leakers along with the "principals" and authors are all contemporaries ... of course, I still think the rathergate memo contents are true, the delivery sources are cloudy ... just IMHO

Salute!
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I got a really GREAT bottle of Amarone for Father's Day
I should go take a huge glass of that and smoke a good seegar.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thinking about the typewriter angle. First, typewriters can be
identified as the one a document was prepared on. Second, you can burn or shred a typewritten document, but one done on a word processor leaves traces on the hard drive. Would the lawyers think that using a typewriter would avoid any claim they had hacked a government computer to get the documents or had dealt with someone who had?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. That's yet another interesting possibility.
;-)
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. Another Thing About Typewriter v Computer
A government agent could sieze the harddrive. Then, they'd have access to everything on said drive, not just that one document file.

Sometimes, luddism can be your friend.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
28. Way far along on the spectrum of possible outcomes.

I think that the officials who have been quoted
by the memos would be up in arms if they had been
misquoted in any way.

Don't you??

:shrug:

I know, I know, I worry too.

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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. I think we're all suffering a bit from "shell shock"
Many news organizations have verified the authenticity of these
documents. Relax and enjoy the show.:popcorn:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. For cryin' out loud already!
"The Foreign Office yesterday acknowledged the documents were genuine"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1308368,00.html

PM Blair: "And let me remind you that that memorandum was written before we then went to the United Nations..."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050607-2.html#

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Simple Scotty was asked about them today and he
Edited on Mon Jun-20-05 07:56 PM by Spazito
said this:

Q All right, Scott. At their joint news conference, both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair denied the major assumptions out of the so-called Downing Street memo. We've had other revelations, I guess, since then. But is the President wondering how the intelligence operatives and diplomatic operatives of the key ally in this mission came to these assumptions, came to these conclusions? Isn't he wondering how this happened?

MR. McCLELLAN: I think Prime Minister Blair addressed this very issue. They were memos relating to the United Kingdom and he addressed the issue in a news conference.


Scott is acknowledging the memos exist in his response.

Edited to add link to WH press conference:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050620-20.html

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. "relating to the United Kingdom"...NOTHING to do with the USA!
Just coz the documents referred to AMERICA's fixing the facts around their already-determined goal of war, that's NOTHING to do with AMERICA!

Ya gotta give the lying git credit for never failing to come up with stupid lies a child can clearly see through. :rofl:
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thinking some more. "Here are the documents, here is the
typewriter, here is the typist. We did not hack into a government computer, we do not have any government documents or copies of them in our possession. These are transcriptions of copies of government documents we once had that have been destroyed and are no longer in our possession. What are you going to charge us with that won't force you to produce the original documents in court to show that we must have had them in order to transcribe them?"
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. I Don't Think You Have Anything to Worry About on This Count
Edited on Mon Jun-20-05 08:09 PM by Crisco
Every person who's honest with themself, regardless of whether or not they supported the war, knows deep down WMD was a total pretext. Even many of those RWers who are still okey dokey with us being over there know this. Many have come right out (I'm talking about average folks, not commentators) and said they don't care why we're there, they're just glad we got to go kick some ass.

The only thing DSM do is provide written proof of what everyone already knew was so. The attempts to have them perceived as inauthentic, or misinterpreted, is much like a win/lose game that you'd see in a courtroom where lawyers attempt to have evidence thrown out. It's a bit like, "if the gloves don't fit, you must acquit." Like OJ, BFEE may well be acquitted, but their reputation will be permanently damaged.

Here's an example purloined from one of the idiots at Little Green Footballs:

They *are* forged. The reporter himself admits he produced them by typing them up.

Besides, even if genuine, there isn't any damning evidence there. All leaders of nations have frank discussions about this kinda shit. They all haev those who criticize them for their ideas and decisions as well.

Who gives a rat's ass? There has been ample reason to take out Saddam since the first violations of the sanctions after GW1. The first missile shot at our air patrols was reason enough for me. The deaths due to Saddam's cruelty are reason enough. The fact that Saddam supported suicide bombers in Israel is reason enough. And, the bastard had the weapons, thanks to Russia, they are ferreted away somewhere else, most likely because Saddam's weapons program had Russian fingerprints all over it.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
45. Okay ... you all have convinced me my fears are probably unfounded
I'm gonna go pour a nice big glass of my Father's Day gift


http://www.wineaccess.com/ecommerce/product.tcl?product_id=108539

Unfortunately, no seegars allowed in the house .......
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. NICE!! Enjoy n/t
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
50. Don't forget. The DSM were taken directly from a meeting with
several top officials. Not one has denied the verity of the DSM, not even Blair. If the docs were phony, they would be screaming from the house tops. If the document is authentic, then all of the people who received copies would have to be willing to lie about the information. That's possible but not likely. They would have already done it.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
51. We are going to pull off that red nose and hold it for ransom.
Okay, who took Sparkly's husband and what have you done with him! Give us our logical, rational Stinky back. Now. I mean it. Or the nose gets it.

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