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Yes actually, bush's invasion & occupation of Iraq is illegal.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:02 PM
Original message
Yes actually, bush's invasion & occupation of Iraq is illegal.
Was Pearl Harbor illegal?

Yes.

Was Hitler's invasion of Poland illegal?

Yes.

Was bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq illegal?

Yes.

The international legal rules governing the use of force take as their starting point Article 2(4) of the U.N. Charter, which prohibits any nation from using force against another. The charter allows for only two exceptions to this rule:

-when force is required in self-defense (Article 51) or

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.htm

-when the Security Council authorizes the use of force to protect international peace and security (Chapter VII).

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter7.htm

Under Article 51, the triggering condition for the exercise of self-defense is the occurrence of an armed attack ("if an armed attack occurs"). Notwithstanding the literal meaning of that language, some, though not all, authorities interpret Article 51 to permit anticipatory self-defense in response to an imminent attack. The application of the basic law regarding self-defense to the present U.S. confrontation with Iraq is straightforward. Iraq has not attacked any state, nor is there any showing whatever that an attack by Iraq is imminent. Therefore self-defense does not justify the use of force against Iraq by the United States or any state.

Added to this, bush himself has repeatedly said Iraq was a "future threat", that we "can't afford to wait until a future attack becomes imminent" and that he "never said the threat from Iraq was 'imminent'".

As well, the "gold standard" of US intelligence is the NIE (National Intelligence Estimate, in which CIA Director George Tenet called the threat from Iraq "low";

George Tenet; "My judgment would be that the probability of him initiating an attack--let me put a time frame on it--in the foreseeable future, given the conditions we understand now, the likelihood I think would be low."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0306/S00211.htm

The Bush administration's reliance on the need for "regime change" in Iraq as a basis for use of force is also barred by Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."

Article 2(4) barring the threat or use of force has been described by the International Court of Justice as a peremptory norm of international law, from which states cannot derogate. (Nicaragua v United States, 1986; ICJ Reports 14, at para. 190)

Equally, Chapter VII does not apply, as the Security Council clearly voted against invading Iraq and have in fact declared the invasion illegal and in violation of the UN Charter.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2004/s1200535.htm

Any claim that "material breach" of prior cease fire obligations by Iraq justifies use of force by the United States is unavailing. The Gulf War was a Security Council authorized action, not a state versus state conflict; accordingly, it is for the Security Council to determine whether there has been a material breach and whether such breach requires renewed use of force.

Under the UN Charter, which is the foundation of international law, the invasion of Iraq is illegal, and has been deemed so by the UN Security Council.

The United States Constitution deems the UN Charter to be "the law of the land". In violating the UN Charter, bush violated the United States Constitution.

International legal experts regard Iraq war as illegal

The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) in Geneva expressed its “deep dismay that a small number of states are poised to launch an outright illegal invasion of Iraq, which amounts to a war of aggression.”

The rule governing self-defence applies only when an enemy attack has already taken place or is imminent. There is no legal sanction for a preventive war. Should a state regard itself as threatened by another a state, although no hostilities have taken place, the threatened state is obliged to call on the Security Council—the only body authorised to legitimise military action in such a case.

http://www.icj.org/IMG/pdf/Iraq_war_18_03_03_.pdf

UK gvt legal adviser; Iraq war was 'crime of aggression'

The Iraq war amounted to a "crime of aggression", the former deputy legal adviser to the Foreign Office has said. Elizabeth Wilmshurst made the claim before war in her resignation letter, obtained by the BBC News Website.

In her resignation letter, Ms Wilmshurst says military action in Iraq was "an unlawful use of force" which "amounts to the crime of aggression."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4377605.stm

Canadian law professors declare US-led war illegal

The US-led coalition’s war against Iraq is illegal, declared 31 Canadian professors of international law at 15 law faculties.

A US attack “would be a fundamental breach of international law and would seriously threaten the integrity of the international legal order that has been in place since the end of the Second World War,”

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg01357.html

Australian legal experts declare an invasion of Iraq a war crime

Forty-three Australian experts in international law and human rights legislation have issued a declaration that an invasion of Iraq will be an open breach of international law and a crime against humanity...

...the indictment of the German Nazi leaders at the 1945-1949 Nuremberg War Crimes Trials was precisely for carrying out preemptive military strikes against neighbouring countries. They were tried and convicted of “planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances”.

http://law.anu.edu.au/cipl/Media/Waging%20war%20crimes%20Feb03.pdf

War on Iraq was illegal, say top lawyers

-Professor Philippe Sands QC Director of the Centre on International Courts and Tribunals, University College London

-Professor Robert Black QC Professor of Scots law, Edinburgh University, and architect of the Lockerbie trial in The Hague

-Professor Sean Murphy Associate professor of law at George Washington University, Washington DC

-Professor Vaughan Lowe Chichele Professor of Public International Law, All Souls College, Oxford

-Professor James Crawford Whewell Professor of International Law, Jesus College, Cambridge

-Professor Mary Kaldor Professor of global governance, London School of Economics

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/law/2003/0525warillegal.htm

Iraq War Illegal, Lawyers Say

Most experts in international law say they are not convinced either by the argument that military action against Iraq is authorized by earlier U.N. resolutions nor that the U.N. Charter allows self-defense against a perceived future threat.

http://middleeastinfo.org/article2270.html

War would be illegal

We are teachers of international law. On the basis of the information publicly available, there is no justification under international law for the use of military force against Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,909275,00.html

Lawyers Tell Senate: Use of Force Against Iraq Without New Security Council Resolution Is Unlawful; Urge Congress to Uphold U.N. Charter

http://www.wslfweb.org/docs/iraqpr.pdf

bush administration Richard Perle; War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal.

...influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal. In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London:

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

Mr Perle, a key member of the defence policy board, which advises the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that "international law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone", and this would have been morally unacceptable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

It's fact; bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq was, and is, "the supreme crime" war of aggression...and illegal.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nominated
n/t
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. Iraq war illegal, says Annan
The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm

peace
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. It can be distilled down to three simple words: "abuse of power"
Americans understand the word "abuse," I hope.

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. They also understand the word criminal. nt
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Laws?
Bush don't need no stinking laws. How many, many times has he proved that already?
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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Great explanation, voted.
I haven't digested it all yet but find it very interesting. Why doesn't the passing of UN resolution 1441 in Oct 2002 qualify as "when the Security Council authorizes the use of force to protect international peace and security (Chapter VII)"?

Thanks, need time to go thru it all.
Splat!
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. We have joined
the elite group of "rogue nations".

Thanks, George.

Ya fuckhead.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. In the basement of his secret lair, Dick Cheney screams:
"I AM ABOVE THE LAW!"
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent!
Send to Senator Conyers if you haven't already!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Going to kick this
back to the top
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. thanks for this -- though... just a thought, aren't they trying to "clean
house" at the UN? what's that all about, really?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Smearing the UN to distract from Iraq. The usual. n/t
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. oh, sure it's illegal
but all you have to do is deny it publicly, never appologize for any thing, no matter how wrong, and just lie, lie, lie,....always remember the bigger the lie, the more they believe it. Oh yeah, buy off the media....
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. good post to bookmark.. nominated
this is a subject that will not be going away soon.
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NeoTraitors Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Wasn't the rational for Gulf War I
that Iraq had invaded a non-threatening country? If what Iraq did then was illegal, what is our invasion of Iraq?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. one of the charges Saddam Hussein will supposedly be tried on
is the invasion of Kuwait.
:shrug:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yes. AS POSTED EARLIER TODAY, I will strive to expand
Edited on Sat Jun-18-05 12:42 AM by understandinglife
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3885693

...in conjunction with a thread that will also not cease to expand, until Bush and his fellow war criminal neoconsters stop killing Americans, Iraqis and others who happen to be located in the region they are attempting to convert into an oil source and logistical infrastructure for waging perpetual war in the Middle East and points North, South, and East, specifically:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3742495




http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4173.htm


WE THE PEOPLE .... WILL NEVER FORGET

"... we sent our young people into harm's way without leveling with the American people." - Congresswoman Pelosi before Congress, 16 June 2005



Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Impeachment of Bush and Cheney; indictment and prosecution of all members of the Bush regime who participated in the deception, should be campaign promises of any candidate worthy of our vote in the 2006 Congressional elections.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. Exactly! It is an illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq
It is NOT a war, it was an illegal invasion of Iraq and IS an illegal occupation of Iraq. For those who use the term 'war' is to buy into the false premise perpetrated by the bush cabal and their supporters that it is somehow legal because it is termed a 'war' and therefore must be supported.

To use the term 'war' to describe the Iraq situation is to help the bush cabal to defend the indefensible, imo.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Illegal invasion and occupation.
Yup. :kick:
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. All of the Iraq war stems from the first decision that was reached :
The Bush adminstration decided that they were above the law(s). They had to reject both international and national laws to get the war they wanted on the timeframe they wanted. Anytime they acknowleded laws, it was to debunk or supercede them - Geneva conventions are "quaint", defining legal limits of the illegal (torture)etc. So it's not as if they were unaware of what they doing. It is all carefully stage-manged and orchestrated.

Sidenote - I personally think John Bolton is being sent to the UN because he is probably the one guy they can get to stage some kind of uproar and pull us out in a huff.
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BlueStateModerate Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. Poland and Pearl Harbor didn't even violate the UN
Edited on Sat Jun-18-05 06:16 AM by BlueStateModerate
It didn't exist yet. :P

I do, of course, realize that it violated other international laws... although I'm not so sure about Pearl Harbor.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Pearl Harbor was NOT illegal
Edited on Sat Jun-18-05 09:58 AM by bpilgrim
japan made a formal declaration of war and we were actively cutting off their supplies of energy.

but IRAQ was definitely ILLEGAL as noted by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan...

BBC: Iraq war illegal, says Annan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm

psst... pass the word :hi:

peace
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Are you sure?
Pearl Harbor was attacked 7:55 Hawaiian time but the declaration of war was to be delivered 1:00 pm Eastern time

Hawaiian time is five hours later than eastern time so that would mean a declaration of war at 8:00 am at the earliest. It was a sneak attack for the purposes of public information.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. There is no doubt that the war in Iraq is illegal...
and grounds for impeachment.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. So was: afganistan, kosovo, nicaragua, greneda and all the others
It is beyond partisan consideration here. War crimes are a systemic
American problem.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. denial of water to Iraqi civilians = Article 14 war crime
the denial of water to Iraqi civilians = Article 14 war crime

http://www.casi.org.uk/briefings-new.html

Denial of Water to Iraqi Cities
Water supplies to Tall Afar, Samarra and Fallujah were cut off during US attacks during the past two months, affecting up to 750,000 civilians. This appears to form part of a deliberate US policy of denying water to the residents of cities under attack. If so, it has been adopted without a public debate, and without consulting Coalition partners. It is a serious breach of international humanitarian law, and is deepening Iraqi opposition to the United States, other coalition members, and the Iraqi government.

This briefing outlines the evidence for the denial of water to Iraqi civilians, discusses stated justifications for these tactics, and analyses some of the implications. It calls for the immediate cessation of this tactic, which causes severe and undue suffering to civilians under attack.

Read the full briefing: "DENIAL OF WATER TO IRAQI CITIES"

http://www.casi.org.uk/briefings-new.html
-----------------------------------
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110904A.shtml

Aggressive War: Supreme International Crime
By Marjorie Cohn
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Tuesday 09 November 2004

Associate United States Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson was the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg Tribunal. In his report to the State Department, Justice Jackson wrote: "No political or economic situation can justify" the crime of aggression. He also said: "If certain acts in violation of treaties are crimes they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

Between 10,000 and 15,000 U.S. troops with warplanes and artillery have begun to invade the Iraqi city of Fallujah. To "soften up" the rebels, American forces dropped five 500-pound bombs on "insurgent targets." The Americans destroyed the Nazzal Emergency Hospital in the center of town. They stormed and occupied the Fallujah General Hospital, and have not agreed to allow doctors and ambulances go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.
<snip>
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. 1441
would be bush excuse, but and a big fat but, saddam was co-operating. This is when blair knew they would have to go back to the UN, clock was ticking because of the blazing hot summer Iraq has plus the sand storms. bush didn't care about the UN, all the bugging of the office occurred about now. Then shock and awe and the ruination of a sovereign nation and our fore fathers weeping in their graves.

as someone just said thanks bush!

ya fuckwad
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Kick!
:kick:
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. Of course it was illegal - which is why they are smearing the UN
"kill the messenger" is their credo.
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
27. Where in the US Constitution does it say the UN Charter
is the law of the land?

"The United States Constitution deems the UN Charter to be "the law of the land". In violating the UN Charter, bush violated the United States Constitution."
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Of course, the Constitution does not mention the UN Charter per se
Edited on Sat Jun-18-05 09:53 AM by Art_from_Ark
I believe the poster was referring to Article VI of the Constitution, which contains the so-called "Supremacy Clause":

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
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toymachines Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. you guys think anyone will actually refer to us as a rogue nation?
i sure wish the international community would do something worthwhile to deter us.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. What is the value of a treaty with the US? Will they double cross you?
Why is the US a UN member if they don't intend to follow UN regulations?
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Article VI, Clause 2.
Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. My God Girl, you are on quite the roll
Nominated but do some work in the garden
I come back and you did it again
thank you
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