Nobody's Perfect: Bob Somerby, right about so much, is wrong about Dean

[BurtWorm]

http://www.dailyhowler.com/


But it’s silly to pretend that Dean simply made a “mundane observation”—a statement like “the sky is blue.” Here’s what he actually said:

DEAN: The Republicans are not very friendly to different kinds of people. They're a pretty monolithic party. They pretty much—they all behave the same and they all look the same, and they all—you know, it's pretty much a white Christian party. And the Democrats here adopt everybody you can think of in our party.

In a country that is largely Christian and white, that’s an amazingly dumb thing to say. “They all look the same?” Given the history of race in this country (in this world), that’s an amazingly dumb thing to say. Guess what? Dems are trying to attract white Christian voters; this is the perfect way to suggest that such voters aren’t really welcome. Whatever Dean was attempting to say, this was a lazy statement from a lazy mind, and a party which is forced to deal with Blitzer and Fox can’t afford to perform so ineptly....

****


Bob, we know your mind is congealed on the subject of Dean, for whatever fucked up reason, but the Republicans are not very friendly to different kinds of people. They are a pretty monolithic party. They pretty much—they all do behave the same and they all pretty much do look the same, and they all—you know, it pretty much is a white Christian party. And the Democrats here do adopt everybody you can think of in our party.

And I don't care if you and the Wolf Blitzer and the rest of the Dean-hating media don't get it, but his point is crystal clear to me, and he spoke the truth. It's Republicans who have something to answer to for their lack of diversity, not Dean for having the guts to point it out.

[LoZoccolo]

1. That's funny that "Bob" as you call him can explain it so articulately...

...and yet people still don't get it, to the point where they are saying things as if they didn't even read it.

It's not about you or whether you think it's crystal-clear.

[BurtWorm]

3. What did he explain so well?

It's not just about Bob either. (His name is Bob, Lo. What else should I call him? Mr. Somerby?) Is what Dean said (to Democrats) about Republicans not true? It isn't pretty much a white Christian party?

[LoZoccolo]

5. I realize you find it to be generally true.

I'm not sure of it, because the only statistic I saw about it has to do with elected Republicans.

But that doesn't matter anyways.

Because as I've already said, it's not about you. If it was about you, the issue would have ended with your agreement with what Dean said. It wouldn't even have been an issue. But it's not about you.

[BurtWorm]

6. It's about the difference between the parties.

One is pretty much a white, Christian party. The other is much more diverse. Which party has something to answer for? The one with a chairman who points out this difference? Or the one that represents a single demographic and has a lock on all three branches of government?

[LoZoccolo]

8. Again, it's not whether or not it is true in some sense.

Whether or not it is true, or can be proven, or should be pointed out in some matter, is not, was not, and never will be what the critics of Dean within the Democratic Party (at least not me) have taken issue with, and anyone who relies on asserting or proving the statement is factually true has either sidestepped the issue, or does not understand it, and should review it before making a judgement.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. What, then, in your opinion, is the issue.

Cause I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[LoZoccolo]

12. You'll have to find that out from someone else.

Or do a search on my posts from the last week. Because I'm not going to waste time on someone who's flat-out rude to me.

[BurtWorm]

16. The issue Dean's critics seem to have with him is he wasn't polite

to white Christians. Is that what you think? Somerby, besides calling it "dumb," says this is what's wrong with what Dean said:

"Dems are trying to attract white Christian voters; this is the perfect way to suggest that such voters aren’t really welcome."

Does Somerby really believe the Democratic Party is going to succeed in attracting the white Christians who will find this sort of observation offensive enough that they'd vote Republican because a Democrat observes it?

I don't buy the white gloves "keeping up appearances" approach to rebuilding the party that Somerby and so many of Dean's critics seem to buy--the don't-say-anything-to-offend-anybody-who-might-conceivably-for-some-reason-choose-to-vote-for-one-of-us strategy. It didn't do jack shit for us in 2002 or 2004. It's why so many Democrats were eager to put Dean in the chair this year.

[LoZoccolo]

20. That's a little bit it.

But not all of it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Bullshit.

Just look at the numbers. The republicans are 85%+ white christian. That means, 15%- non-white christian.

Dems are 55% white christian. That means 45% other.

Which one looks like the white christian party?

By saying the other party is almost exclusively white chrisitan, it does not mean that the dems are trying to push away white christians. For the fact is, the dems are more than half white christian themselves.

As, no doubt, are the Greens. As are the Socialists. As are the Constitutionalists.

The point is, the republican comfort level with minorities, and visa versa, is such that they will be predomininantly white christian and will push white christian agendas.

And know what? As the republicans continue to refine their definition of what 'christian' means, more and more of those white christians will be defecting to the dems.

What should Dean have said? White christian extremists? The repubs would look as themselves and say, "I'm no extremist!". But if he says they are white christians, and reaches out to them, they look at themselves and say "Yeah. He's talking about me," becasue they cannot deny being either white or christian.

Duh.

[LoZoccolo]

10. As I've said, the fact that it's true in a literal sense does not matter.

It also was never the issue, and anyone who thinks it is does not understand the criticism of Dean. Somerby actually lays it out nicely, and yet people are acting like they didn't even read it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. It is certainly one of the issues.

And the repubs know it, or they wouldn't pack the stage with minorities at every public appearance. It is hyprocisy to claim that their ideologically driven activist judge nominee is being held back because she is black, rather than because of her outrageous behavior on the bench, when blacks make up less than 10% of their party and 40% of ours.

It points out the basic hypocrisy of the repub party, just like * having Mary Cary and her boss at a whitehouse fundraiser.

Republican hypocrisy is a weak point that can, and should be exploited.

[LoZoccolo]

17. It's not the issue that the critics have a problem with.

Find out why.

[gratuitous]

18. Okay, I read it

Here's what Somerby says:

In a country that is largely Christian and white, that’s an amazingly dumb thing to say. “They all look the same?” Given the history of race in this country (in this world), that’s an amazingly dumb thing to say. Guess what? Dems are trying to attract white Christian voters; this is the perfect way to suggest that such voters aren’t really welcome.

Now, how did Somerby go from quoting Dean's comment that Republicans all look the same to his total non sequitur comment that saying so "is the perfect way to suggest that such voters {white Christians} aren't really welcome" in the Democratic party.

Dean said Republicans all look the same. Somerby says that suggests that Dean is saying that white Christians aren't welcome in the Democratic party. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Somerby either expressed himself poorly (which is a grace he does not extend to Dean), or he's flat wrong. I can't tell which it is, but someone comes off looking bad here, and it isn't Howard Dean from what I can read.

[BurtWorm]

22. Somerby is just one of those people who can't stomach Dean.

He's far from being alone. It's a little weird, from my perspective, but he's entitled to his opinion, especially considering how brilliant he is on other subjects, even in today's Howler--as he is on the DSM and the "foppishness" of the media stars. But he reacts almost viscerally to Dean and has since the primaries.

[LoZoccolo]

23. It does not matter whether it's logical or not.

You're trying to establish that there is not necessarily a logical reason for people to be offended by this; I'm saying that it doesn't matter. The Republicans have spent a lot of effort trying to establish what Dean said himself, and tack on the idea that it also implies Democratic hostility towards whites and Christians. Why allow them to fight according to their plan and reinforce their frames?

[gratuitous]

25. So, logic and reason don't matter?

Okay, thanks for explaining that. {Fights urge to back out of room slowly.}

Or are you saying that because the mighty Republican Wurlitzer along with its media echo chamber can and will twist anything that's said by anyone anywhere to suit their purposes, that Democrats should . . . well, what exactly?

Are you saying that Republicans are trying to establish what Dean himself said? Dean said that Republicans all look that same, according to Somerby; if that's a message that Republicans are trying to communicate, then why is it wrong for Dean to say that? Is it because Dean said it properly but in the wrong context? Is Somerby upset because Republicans shouldn't be upset with Dean?

Neither Somerby nor you are making much sense so far. I'm beginning to think it's not just inelegant expression so much as incoherent expression.

[LoZoccolo]

26. You keep taking what I say out of context.

You could say I've made the same mistake Dean has.

You ask why it's wrong to establish something that the Republicans have tried to establish: the reason being is that it's a strategy that they picked which they felt they would be successful with. And I would think it has. The concept of framing is one I get from George Lakoff's book Don't Think of an Elephant, to which Dean wrote the foreward.

[gratuitous]

28. I've tried to quote directly

I quoted Dean, as quoted by Somerby, I quoted Somerby, and I quoted you, all directly. I don't see what the point either you or Somerby is trying to make.

Dean said that the Republicans all look the same, according to Somerby. From that, Somerby made a leap that I didn't follow at all, which was that Dean was telling white Christians that they aren't welcome in the Democratic party. You're saying that Republicans are trying to establish that point exactly (whether that point is that all Republicans look the same, a point Republicans themselves try to disprove by shoving the faces of color out front in all their gatherings; or that Democrats aren't inclusive of white Christians, a point that Dean wasn't making at all) doesn't make any sense either.

For Somerby seems to be in high dudgeon over an elusive point and it hardly seems worth the effort. If he can't say what he means, and if you can't explain what he means given three tries at it, except to say that logic and reason aren't in play, I wonder if there's a point at all.

If, however (back to one of my earlier points), the Republicans will spin and twist anything that's said, then should no Democrat anywhere ever say anything? I don't think that's what's being said, but you can see the conclusion from where we're standing. I mean, if Howard Dean says, "I like vanilla ice cream" and the mighty Republican Wurlitzer morphs that into some cockamamie talking point against Dean, shouldn't the story be more about the Republican contortions than about whatever it was that Dean said? After all, Dean can't control what the Republicans decide to sensationalize.

We've certainly seen it in other contexts (the Wellstone funeral, Kerry's comment about Cheney's daughter, the whole Swift Boat kerfuffle) where something inocuous passed for a news cycle or two before being blown up into some major "controversy." If the Republicans, as Somerby says, are going to take a comment about how they all look the same and pretzelize it into an attack on white Christians, what should Dean or any Democrat ever say at any time? The media go haring off with these ridiculous blast fax points, but if the result is going to be the same regardless of what's said, I'd prefer that Dean or any other Democrat go ahead and speak the truth rather than muzzling himself because there's no telling beforehand what preposterous lengths the Republicans will go to.

[LoZoccolo]

30. Taking a quote out of context...

...necessarily relies on quoting them directly; I would expect you to quote me directly just as right-wing radio hosts have quoted Dean directly.

I'm not against Dean saying strong things; I said on Sunday that I thought his remark about the voting rights act was good, and I actually feel it's actually a stronger accusation against the Republicans. I just don't see why he's lending an assist to a Republican frame that's allowed them to go from a situation in 1987 where white evangelical Christians broke 31%-34% for Democrats and Republicans, respectively, to the situation now where it's 22%-43%*. They've worked hard to establish themselves as a white Christian party; Dean's agreed with that, while at the same time deriding Republicans and saying he hates them and everything they stand for. Can you and I tell the difference? Well, does it matter?

* http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=757

[bpilgrim]

13. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:rofl:

peace

[Larkspur]

2. Any Bush voter, Repuke or other party, who is not ashamed of voting for

Bush is worse than "un-friendly." They are fascist enablers and will not vote Dem anyway. That's what Somerby and the Hill Dems don't understand.

I work with these kinds of Bush voters and I've told them to their face that if they haven't signed up to join the military and request to be shipped to Iraq that they are moral cowards. And I keep repeating that to them whenever they bash Democrats. To date, none have signed up for military duty.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. where do you work? hope you have job security

I'd love to be in your office during those conversations

keep it up!

[Gildor Inglorion]

7. LOVE the Bosch figurines in your sig. line!

I'm going to check out the website now...thanks a lot!

:hi:

[Larkspur]

27. I even told my manager he was a moral coward for not going to Iraq

I actually didn't tell him directly but I said at a team meeting last year that anyone who voted for Bush, which he did, is a moral coward for not going to fight in Iraq. The looks of shock on his and my other team members, who voted for Bush, was priceless.

My boss is an "Independent" but he's really a Republican registered as an Independent. He lives in New Hampshire. My boss refuses to discuss politics when I'm present now. He'll discuss it with the others. We used to bring it up at team meetings but they can't make me cower like the Hill Dems.

However, one guy on another team that my team works with is not afraid to engage me in politics. He's another Republican disguised as an Independent, but he enjoys the sparring and I use him as practice for debating and employing my psych operations on my Republican co-workers.

Where I work, I also host a monthly Progressive Political Luncheon. There are 9 of us so far, with 7 meeting regularaly in the cafe. I played Lakoff's DVD at one of our luncheons this year. We invite new members by word of mouth, and we stay in touch about political happenings in the meantime via emails.

I work for a major financial services company in Eastern Massachusetts.

[unblock]

14. white christians need no be offended by dean's comment

were a white christian otherwise inclined to become a democrat, i wouldn't think dean's comments would be offensive or "amazingly dumb" or whatever.

given a choice between membership in a "white christian" party and an AMERICAN party, of which white christians are a major component, i don't see why any reasonable white christian would be turned off by dean's comments.

unless, of course, they like the whole segregationist/white christian power concepts, in which case they're not likely to become democrats anyway.

i think somersby missed dean's point. it's NOT" "white christians aren't welcome in the democratic party", nor is it even "white christians are more welcome in the republican party". rather, it's more like "party membership shouldn't be an exclusive club based on race and religion, and in the democratic party, it isn't.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Thank you.

Much better than my poor attempt at saying the same thing.

[theboss]

19. I just want to know why Dean can never get it right the first time

He clarifies himself more than any politician I've ever seen. After a while, you would think he would get used to talking off the cuff.

[BurtWorm]

24. It's the Gore syndrome, as far as I can tell.

The media have a story about Dean (which Bob Somerby seems to buy, incredibly enough), that he's a loose cannon. Bush puts his foot in his mouth constantly. Does anyone rake him over the coals for what he says? No. You only get in trouble in this country these days for saying things critical of Republicans and white Christians. The other thing is, Republicans never apologize for their idiocies. No one expects them to. They get off scot free.

[Cha]

31. Oh, Dean "Get's it right" ..Plenty of

of times, the First time..you're just not paying attention. Just locking into the negative press.

[unblock]

32. often in politics, getting it "wrong" is really getting it right

many times, your story gets MUCH more play if you throw in something inaccurate, or controversial, or even, dare i say, "over the top".

that way, you get the first story, then your opponents talk about what YOU want them to talk about, then you get to clarify, etc. at least three stories instead of the one story you'd get if you got it "right" the first time and then there's no follow-up.

[Cha]

29. That guy is always on

Dean's case..if I remember right..I don't read him anymore.

Thanks Burt for your answer to somersby..it's PERFECT!

And there are plenty of bright online journalists and radio guys out there who think Dean is doing something right.

bob agrees with dick cheney..big whoop.