CNN: Mother of mauling victim feared family dog

[Redstone]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/12/fataldog.mauling.ap/index.html

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- The mother of a 12-year-old boy killed in his own home by one of the family's two pit bulls says she had been so concerned about one of the dogs that she shut her son in the basement to protect him.

"It's Nicky's time to go," she said in the interview. "When you're born you're destined to go and this was his time."

Can you fucking believe this woman? She has a dog she knows is dangerous, the dog kills her son, and all she cans say is "well, OK, it was 'his time to go?'"

A twelve-year-old kid?

This may be the most callous thing I've ever heard a mother say. She should pe put away for a long, long time. And sterilized.

Redstone

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. That was posted here when it happened........

... a week or two ago. People here responded to that comment by the mother as the utterings of a woman in shock.

I read it as the deranged rationalization of a woman who had allowed her kid to be killed by an animal she knew was dangerous.

Both parents should be prosecuted. Keeping two dogs of that kind and that size in a city apartment with little kids? Criminal.

[Lerkfish]

3. didn't see your post before I posted mine.

I agree with BOTH points: she was criminally negligent, AND she was in shock.

I know the shock a parent feels when losing a child.

[Orangepeel]

4. At the time, I wrote it off to shock and a desperate need for comfort

but yesterday someone posted a story that detailed how she called a radio show recently defending the dogs and complaining that her son never listened to her.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. Oh, no

Jesus. No. Tell me that's not true. Please tell me that's not true.

Because if it's true, there are humans out there who are going to back me into rethinking my lifelong opposition to the death penalty, and I am really not ready for that.

[MountainLaurel]

11. Here's the quote from the paper

"I put him down there, with a shovel on the door,'' said Faibish, who had left the boy alone with the dogs on June 3 to run some errands. "He had a bunch of food. And I told him, 'Stay down there until I come back.' Typical Nicky, he wouldn't listen to me.''

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3837949

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. self-delete

[Lerkfish]

20. ahhhhh...well, then I take back my parental shock post.

apparently not the case here.

[LisaL]

13. She claims she locked the boy up in a basement

while she went up on her errands. She claims the dogs were sweet and loving, yet she locked the child up because she was afraid of what the dogs would do to him? She contradicts herself and apparently thinks nothing of it. And yes, in the article, she also says that she locked the boy in the basement but he must have gotten out because he didn't listen to her. I really hope the police charge her ASAP!

[Gold Metal Flake]

5. When that story was first posted, the part about the basement

and the bitch in heat and the fact the male was not neutered and the fear that the mom had about the male dog and the even clearer connection to negligence had not yet been made public. If the posters you referred to had had the entire story, their responses might have been different.

Personally, I see no modern purpose for this breed. This breed was created for the sport of dog fighting. Its aggressive tendencies have been and continue to be reinforced. It's tremendous jaw strength and persistent nature during attack has been specifically enhanced. Its explosive temperament when it feels threatened has been cultivated over many centuries of development. This is not a working breed. This is not a companion breed. This is a killing breed and this sets it apart from other dogs frequently mentioned by Pit Bull apologists. If this breed were to disappear from the planet tomorrow, mankind would not suffer at all.

This breed was created to do one thing: kill other dogs.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

8. But the whole story WAS posted

The absent father, who apparently was the dominant to whom the dogs responded, the bitch in heat, the child left alone - all of it was here.

And then it began:

The pitbull owners who claimed how wonderful their pets were and how docile and how sweet-natured and how it was not really a good idea to allow people to come to the house because of the dogs, but, you know, that was the fault of the visitors, if they were attacked, because, you know, these are really sweet dogs who are just misunderstood.

It was quite hideous.

I say green-needle the lot of them. Including their human defenders.

OK, not the people.

Well, let me get back to you on that last part.

[Gold Metal Flake]

32. Oops. my lack of initial research has been revealed.

Lumps taken.

[MadHound]

18. Gee, thank god people with reactions like you

Weren't in charge of life/death decisions regarding "killer" breed for the past forty years. Otherwise not only would pits be wiped out, but also German Shepards, Dobermans, and Rotweilers would also be wiped out. Because at one time or another, these breeds have been the bad dog du jour for the hysterical section of America, and cries for the death of these breeds has been aired also.

Let's see here, to make a pit bull(or almost any other dog for that matter) mean, that dog has to be violently abused, deprived of food, love and companionship, teased with bait, subject to many extreme stresses, yet when the dog finally snaps and goes after a human, it isn't the fault of the human who perptrated these things upon the dog, no, somehow it is the fault of the whole breed, what with their "enhanced" jaws and violent nature(what, are cybernetic implants now being done on pits?)

And contrary to the popular notion, pit bulls were originally created as working stock dogs. It was only with observation of their abilities that got them sent to the pit in order to battle bulls and other dogs(much the same route that English Bulldogs took throughout history). In fact, pit bulls, during the first half of the twentieth century, were considered the ideal children's dog. Gentle, loyal and protective, households across the nation had pit bulls to keep their kids company.

But as has happened with many other dogs, street punks and hoodlums in need of protection have taken a gentle breed of dog and abused them to the point of being a killer. With such abusive training, and half ass handling, no wonder these dogs are hurting people. This is the same scenario that happened when German Shepards, Dobermans and Rotweilers were the bad dog du jour. It will be the same thing that happens when the pit becomes passe with the thug crowd, and they turn to a new bad dog, say a Lab, or Collie. And the process will start all over again, the violence and abuse that passes for training, and the inevitable attacks and calls for the death of a breed. It is a process that is going to continue, going from breed to breed, as long as there are thugs who want a "killer dog" in order to enhance their machismo. Today, it's pits, tommorrow it could be labs. And there will be ignorant people with knee jerk reactions calling for the death of a breed.

Tell you what, I'm willing to make a bet with you, for virtually any amount you can afford. Give me an eight week old pit puppy, whose parents are the two most vicious pits you can find. Let me raise the dog like any normal person would raise a dog, and a year later I will give you back a bit that is sweet, gentle and lovable, who will play with your children gently, and will suffer tail pullilng, and the rough and tumble of kids with nary a snarl or bite. For friend, it isn't in the breed or the blood, it is all in how a dog, any dog, is trained and socialized. Please understand that, and stop trying to blame the breed when it is the owner who is the one ultimately responsible.

[LisaL]

19. This woman also claimed her dogs were

very gentle.
:eyes:

[MadHound]

22. This woman was an idiot and clearly shouldn't have any dogs

And children for that matter.

Any responsible owner would have had those dogs fixed. Secondly, she realized that her male(like any male dog) is much more aggressive when around a female in heat, and rather than seperating the dogs, she kept them in close proximity to each other. Third, she knew that she hadn't properly socialized the dogs, nor established her child's dominance over them, since she felt the compelling need to shut her child up in a basement for his protection. Fourth, rather than lock the dogs in the basement and let her child have the run of the house, she did the reverse, with horrendous results.

Sorry, but all of this hysteria is traceable to this odius owner who raised her dogs improperly, and sadly, her child paid the price.

[LisaL]

23. People are generally irresponsible. Should they be allowed

to have such dangerous dogs? If you expect all the owners of pit bulls to be responsible people-well, that's just not going to happen.

[MadHound]

25. You don't get it friend.

I can almost guarantee you that if this woman had done exactly the same actions, raised the dogs exactly the same way, I don't care if the dogs were pits or poodles, they would have attacked the child. If it had been smaller dogs, well then the child would have only been injured, not killed. But if it had been ANY big breed, they too would have killed the boy.

I expect the owners of ANY dogs to be responsible, yet sadly, they aren't.

How many times, and how many ways do I have to say it, it isn't the breed of the dog, it is how that dog is raised and trained that determines whether or not that dog is a killer. Pits are no more inherently liable to attack a person than a lab. But because they've gotten the bad dog rap, people are raising them recklessly, and sadly others are suffering the consequences.

[LisaL]

27. Poodles? When we start hearing that poodles mauled someone

to death every other week, I might believe you.
:eyes:

[MadHound]

30. Poodles are one of the top breeds when it comes to biting humans

Grant you, with their size, they can generally only injure, not kill a person. But they, along with cocker spaniels and other small, over-spoiled, inbred dogs bite humans with much more frequency than pits, shepards and other large breeds.

In fact, here's one for you:

<img src="" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

Like I said before, it isn't the breed of dog friend, it is how the dog is raised and trained.

[newportdadde]

35. 6 week old kid and parents out of the country?

Damn...

[Gold Metal Flake]

37. Please show us how Poms & poodles are more likely to KILL.

Not just babies, but children, adults, elderly. Show us how Poms and Poodles have the equal crushing force as a Pit. Show us how Poms and Poodles equate to Pits at how persistant they are in an attack. Like, one bite vs. biting until the target is dead or dying. How does the design of a Pom or Poodle equate to that of the Pit in terms of being specialized for killing other large, strong, aggressive and persistant dogs? A Pit could kill a miniature Poodle with a single headshake. A Pit could kill a standard Poodle without much difficulty. A Pit could kill a German Sheppard. Two without difficulty.

The Pit is a killing machine. That is its design, that is its purpose.

This is a worthless breed. Love some other dog.

[MadHound]

43. What I'm trying to show you, and what you steadfastly refuse to see

Is that it isn't in the breed of dog friend, it is in the training and socialization that a dog receives that marks it out as a killer.
Do you realize what a dog, any dog, has to go through in order to get that dog to fight other dogs, and to attack people? I do, I used to work as a vet assistant, and animal control would bring in the fighting dogs. These dogs are ABUSED in order to get them to fight. They are starved, beaten, hung, fed all sorts of weird substances, from gunpowder to steroids, baited among other things, all for getting them to attack either other dogs or people. This isn't normal, don't you understand that? If you subject any dog to that sort of treatment, you are going to have a vicious dog.

Pits are not naturally aggressive towards humans, if you don't believe me, believe the American Kennel Club, the authority on breeds and their characteristics. See my links before for information on pits and how good with people they are.

You remind of the hyterical people in my youth who were all for killing off German Shepards. You see, back in the sixties, and early seventies, Shepards were the bad boy dog du jour, the breed that street punks and thugs latched onto, and made mean and evil. There was a spate of Shepard attacks on humans, and the hysterics back then responded as you are now, by calling for the death to all shepards. Meanwhile, I was a little over a year old, and sitting on the back of our German Shepard Lady, in my cowboy hat, tugging on her ears and feeding her crackers, while Lady, bless her heart, is lying there with a look of great forbearance and patience on her face. I have this photo of a "mean" dog at home, having fun with my best friend while the world was going hysterical about how "evil" shepards were.

I can also send you many photos of my pits and pit mixes, playing with the kids of friends and family, tugging on tails and ears, rolling around and having fun with the dogs. I even have a picture of my niece, three years old at the time, who upon seeing pictures of lion tamers sticking their heads in the mouths of lions, decided to open up the mouth of my pit/dane mix, and stick her head in. A priceless pic, not just because it is so cute, but because the look on my dog's face is one I recognize in all well trained dogs, a look of patience and forebearance.

Your hysteria and prejudice about this matter is completely over the top, probably bred by the sensationalist media. I suggest that you get out and get to know some real pit bulls, not the tabloid monsters that you're currently basing your judgement on, but real life dogs and their families. You will be pleasantly suprised.

[Gold Metal Flake]

46. What I'm trying to show you, and what you steadfastly refuse to see

is that Pits have bred into them, by design, specific attributes for killing. It IS their nature, as it was bred to be.

A Springer was bred to be a swimming dog. As pups, they often are afraid of the water. Training overcomes the fear, and they become like tugboats, happily spending hours in the water.

Border Collies must be trained to herd properly, but they are born with the tools needed for the job as they have been bred to.

It takes training to make a pointer suitable for hunting, but the basic skill set is bred in. A St. Bernard makes a lousy pointer. A Chow makes a lousy Fox Hound.

"Is that it isn't in the breed of dog friend, it is in the training and socialization that a dog receives that marks it out as a killer."

The basic skill set and physicality is bred in. You refuse to aknowledge what everyone knows. When Pits attack, they inflict far more damage that your rediculous comparison breeds, the Pom and the Poodle.

You would avoid addressing the above fact by personal attacks. You have made frequent and repeated personal attacks throuout these exchanges. Admit that you have some emotional affect with regard to this breed. You can not simply and dispassionately discuss the breed, so excuse yourself.

[MadHound]

51. Gee, I'm using facts, sources, links to the people who should know

Yet you're saying that I can't dispassionately discuss the breed? You're letting fear and sensationalism color your opinion, yet you're saying that I have some emotional affect(sp?)? Project much there friend:eyes:

Look friend, until you start providing links, and reputable sources to back up your claims, not sensational anectodal evidence, then you cannot make any claim about anything regarding pits. C'mon, you say "everybody knows" BACK YOUR CLAIMS UP WITH FACTS, LINKS, SOURCES.

But know, sad to say, you won't. You'll do like all of the other pit and "bad dog" haters out there do, resort to ad hominems and sensationalism, when in reality, the facts are against you. So predictable, yet so pathetic.

Get back to me when you can back your claims up with something other than hot air.

[Gold Metal Flake]

54. This breed is designed to kill. Dispute that.

And don't call me friend. Your use of the term is not sincere, and not appreciated.

[MadHound]

59. *Sigh*

Look, I've given you links to reputable sources, including the American Kennel Club, *the* authority when it comes to knowing about dogs. I don't know what else I can do to calm your hysteria.

However, what I am looking for friend, is for credible links, sources, facts, not tabloid sensationalism, that backs your point of view up. So far, you haven't provided any, which inexorably lead me to the conclusion that yes, this is all a creation of your fevered imagination, fueled by sensationlist anecdotal reporting. What I'm asking you to do is to put aside your hysteria on this matter, and look at the facts of the matter calmly, rationally and cooly. Apparently this is entirely too difficult for you to do, so quite frankly until you do so, this conversation is pointless. I'm just happy that you're not in a position of power where you could bring your fevered fantasy into reality.

[Junkdrawer]

61. Er...did you hear PETA's position?

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon
Ingrid Newkirk

Most people have no idea that at many animal shelters across the country, any pit bull that comes through the front door doesn't go out the back door alive. From California to New York, many shelters have enacted policies requiring the automatic destruction of the huge and ever-growing number of "pits" they encounter. This news shocks and outrages the compassionate dog-lover.

Here's another shocker: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the very organization that is trying to get you to denounce the killing of chickens for the table, foxes for fur or frogs for dissection, supports the shelters' pit-bull policy, albeit with reluctance. We further encourage a ban on breeding pit bulls.

....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/08/EDGDLD4G1S1.DTL

[MadHound]

62. And gee, their analysis of pits backs my own.

That it isn't the breed of dog that makes them mean, it is how they are trained, that verges on the, and crosses over, the line of abuse. "I waded into ugly situations and pulled pit bulls from people who beat and starved them, or chained them to metal drums as "guard" dogs, or trained them to attack people and other animals. It is this abuse, and the tragedy that comes from it, that motivates me."

As I continue to say, and backed up by no less an authority than the AKC, pits, trained like any other dog and properly socialized, like any other dog, are wonderful, loyal, gentle pets who are great with kids.

You take any dog and subject it to the cruelty and abusive tactics performed on a pit to make it a mean "guard dog" and you will wind up with a vicious animal, I don't care if it is a pit or poodle, the result will be the same. This story has been played out for the past few decades with various bad dog breeds, from german shepards to dobermans to pits. And in each instance, it isn't the breed of dog, it is the humans you handle it that make the dog vicious.

I don't agree with PETA's stance on outlawing pits. Sometime within the next few years, you will see the drug dealers and street thugs switch to another breed that they think is more macho, and soon you will have a rash of attacks from that breed. Our local humane society has a policy of putting down pits and pit mixes. That is why when a little pit mix pup showed up at my door, starved and obviously abused, I took it in and provided it a loving home. Suzi is as sweet and lovable dog as you could wish for now who gets along fine with my other dogs and cats.

I keep wondering how many times I have to say it, it isn't the breed of dog, it is how they are trained and handled that determines how vicious a dog will be.

[Junkdrawer]

63. Well..the next paragraph did say this...

The pit bull's ancestor, the Staffordshire terrier, is a human concoction, bred in my native England, I'm ashamed to say, as a weapon. These dogs were designed specifically to fight other animals and kill them, for sport. Hence the barrel chest, the thick hammer-like head, the strong jaws, the perseverance and the stamina. Pits can take down a bull weighing in at over a thousand pounds, so a human being a tenth of that weight can easily be seriously hurt or killed.

Obviously, it's not the dog's fault that violent humans selectively bred the most powerful, short tempered dogs for sport. But, somehow, as quickly and as humanely as possible, I'd like this vicious mistake reversed.

[MadHound]

65. Should we also ban other dogs that were bred to fight other animals?

Should we ban Chows, English Bulldogs, various terriers, etc. etc.?
No, of course not. Most people consider breeds such as the English Bulldog to be loyal, loveable dogs who wouldn't hurt them. And up until twenty five years ago, pits were in that same category. In fact they were the recommended dog for children, in fact the AKC still makes that recommendation. But then the drug dealers started turning away from Shepards and Dobermans as the bad dog du jour, and started torturing the poor pit.

By the by, before you start saying that a pit bull was "bred" to be vicious and short tempered, I would suggest you do some research. Here's a couple of links to help you. <http://www.akc.org/pdfs/breeds/ClubFlierPDFs/StaffordshireBullTerrier.pdf>
<http://pitbulls.jentown.com/stereotype/pitbullstereotype.htm>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull>

Please friend, don't fall for the hype and sensationalism. It isn't the breed of the dog, it is how the dog is raised, trained and socialized that determines whether or not an animal is going to be vicious.

[Junkdrawer]

67. A quick Google has many articles on breeding temperament...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=breeding+temperament+dogs&spell=1

http://www.rejoycewhippets.com/temperamentandbreeding.html

http://www.italian-greyhound.net/breedtemp.htm


And I didn't say the dogs were vicious. I said the humans who bred them were.

[MadHound]

69. So are you also saying that human breeding inluences temperment

Or does the nuture side of the equation ever come into play?

Sorry friend, I've been around too many so-called vicious dogs in my life to fully believe that it is entirely a matter of genes that determine temperment. In fact I will reiterate the offer I made to another poster earlier, give me an eight week old pit bull pup, whose parents are the most vicious foul tempered beasts you can find. I will be willing to bet almost any amount of money that I will bring you back a sweet, gentle, loyal loving dog that is great within one year.

The nature vs nuture arguement is always a big question, both in humans and animals. I will grant you that nature does play something of a role. But in questions of temperment and viciousness, I place my bet on nuture every single time.

[Junkdrawer]

70. I will agree that it's both Nature and Nurture, but...

some breeds are the result of vicious human design and, again, that is what I'd want reversed. And that seems to me to be the fair reading of the original PETA cite.

[MadHound]

72. I tend to doubt that we have managed to breed such a vicious dog

In only a quarter of a century. If you go read the second link that I posted above, you will notice a blurb on how pits were bred for fighting bulls and bears. Fair enough. You will also notice that the inclination of these dogs to be vicious towards humans, even in the heat of a fight, were bred out of pits.

Somehow, I doubt that within seven generations or so that we can breed out a behaviour trait that took hundreds of years to breed in.

So are you ready to take up my wager?

[Junkdrawer]

73. Earlier I agreed it was Nature and Nurture. But remember...

most casual dog owners do not have your training skills. I support the the shelter euthanasia policy.

[MadHound]

76. My skills are nothing special

Common sense, love and disipline. I don't beat my animals, instead doing something else much more effective for disipline, banishment away from human contact.

It doesn't take some sort of miraculous powers to raise a pit bull, just the same skills you would use to bring up any dog, because they are really just like any other dog.

What is extraordinary is the lengths that one has to go to in order to turn pits, or any other dog, into a vicious animal. Beating, startvation, deprivation of contact, confinement, baiting. You treat any dog like this and you will wind up with a vicious animal. You raise a pit like you would any other dog, and you will be rewarded with a loyal, gentle, intelligent pet who is, as mentioned by the AKC, a wonderful childrens' pet.

[friesianrider]

56. Yes, bred in by PEOPLE

It was not "natural" to the dog until PEOPLE got involved and specifically bred it in. You are blaming the dog and the breed for a problem that is with PEOPLE.

I'm sorry but saying it is a "worthless breed" is irresponsible and totally untrue. You need to be getting angry at the tens of thousands of irresponsible dog breeders in this world for the way certain dogs are, not the dogs or the breed itself.

[friesianrider]

55. The reason is POOR BREEDING.

It is not the breed's fault, or any dog's fault. It is irresponsible people like this woman who see animals as ways to make a quick buck by selling puppies. They know their clientele want the dogs for fighting so rather than breeding OUT aggressive characteristics that are apart of EVERY breed, they encourage the characteristics to stay IN. A Lab could kill as easily as a Pit Bull, but they don't because they haven't been subject to the irrational and incredibly poor breeding that Pits and Rotties have.

Labs would be the same way if they were subject to the cruel and inhumane breeding practices Pits are.

BLAME THE BREEDING, NOT THE BREED/DOG ITSELF.

[liontamer]

58. i was attacked by a poodle

luckily it was leashed and couldn't get free, but poodles are big hunting dogs and they often have bad owners

[friesianrider]

52. SO right on...

Socialization is so, so, so important. I volunteer at a local animal shelter, and if dogs don't get proper socialization it is very difficult to "go back." And how many people who have unneutered pit bulls are responsible? I can guarantee without knowing official numbers that I'd bet over 90% are breeding and selling the dogs for fighting.

[friesianrider]

50. Very well said.

Ditto.

[Gold Metal Flake]

31. You did not understand my post.

This breed was created for the sport of dog fighting.

The other breeds you mentioned are working breeds that were not specifically bred for killing other dogs bred for killing other dogs.

A breed of dog specifically bred for the temperment, physical stamina and strength, and persistence needed to tear other dogs of it's breed to death is not a dog we need in this world. It is a montrosity that is not natural. Pit Bulls do more dmamage in less time than other breeds because they are designed to do just that. No amount of false hand wringing from you will change the facts of what this breed was specifically designed to do.

This freak breed has no place among peace-loving people. Only those who glorify agression or bloodsports have a need for such a dog.

Shove your bet, and this breed.

[MadHound]

38. Ooo, now that's a well reasoned, insightful response!

"Shove your bet, and this breed."

Sounds to me like you don't like being called on this BS you're spouting, especially when you have nothing, zip, zero, nada to back your happy ass up with.

Also sounds like you're afraid of losing the bet, and are trying to cover up that fear with bravado. Typical.

First off friend, pits weren't bred to fight other dogs, OK. Here is a fine few links to get you up to speed on what pits were bred for, and what they weren't bred for:
<http://pitbulls.jentown.com/stereotype/pitbullstereotype.htm>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull>please note where it says that the AKC continues to recommend pits as a good dog for children.
<http://www.akc.org/pdfs/breeds/ClubFlierPDFs/StaffordshireBullTerrier.pdf>note this is an AKC publication stating that pits have a natural fondness for people

Thank you, but I'll take the word of people who are vastly more qualified than you in regards to pit bulls. After all, the AKC has decades more experience handling and dealing with dogs than you do. I also tend to trust my own instincts and observations, and I've owned and loved a number of pits and pit mixes(have a pit mix now), and have always found them to be kind, gentle, affectionate dogs.

Please, please friend, understand this: It isn't the breed of the dog that matters, OK. It is how a particular dog is raised and trained. You can train any dog, even a Pomeranian to be a killer<img src="" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
However it is never something that is inherent in ANY breed. So please, leave your prejudice and ignorance about this subject at the door. Read the literature, go find somebody who has a normal(ie not abused)pit and get to know the dog. Who knows, you might find yourself falling for these loveable, loyal mutts, to the point where you get one.

Like I said earlier, I'll even train and socialize it for the first year for you. Of course, then you'll have to take me up on my bet:evilgrin:

[Gold Metal Flake]

45. I addressed your Pom comparison elsewhere.

If you can raise Pits to be docile and to repress their inbred tendancies toward agression and use of killing force, then where were you? Why were you not in that house to protect that child from that killer dog? If you have the skills you claim, put them to use in the world. Otherwise, the public at large will continue to suffer the attacks.

By posting the Pom story, you would have us believe that Poms (or poodles) are as dangerous or a vicious as a dog bred to kill. Or, you would have us believe that a Pit is as small and docile as the typical Pom. Neither idea is gonna fly. We have seen how vicious and destructive Pits can be. Regardless of your self-proffessed skills, you can not control the Pit population at large.

This killer breed has no purpose in society today.

As for me, I can choose from many breeds to have as a pet. I have absolutely no need to lie to myself that I want a Pit because they are "loveable, loyal mutts". Any number of other breeds will fulfill that roll without having been bred with the tools and temperment to attack to the death.

Admit that your attraction to the pit is one borne out of feelings of personal inadequacy, and I just might take you up on your bet. :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gold Metal Flake]

53. More personal attacks.

The AKC instructs owners to dock the tails of Springers. If you have ever seen a Springer with it's tail you would understand my holding the group in low regard. Also, the AKC is part and parcel of the Pit problem. Indescriminate breeding without oversight. Nice.

You steadfastly refuse to conceed that the Pit has bred into it certain traits that enable it to kill more effrectively than other breeds. The public is aware of these attributes, so ignoring them here does you no good. This dog is designed to kill. Breeding can enhance that, thanks for pointing that out.

You have made many personal attacks, starting with your original reply.

I have addressed this rediculous "bet" elsewhere.

I say again, unless you will take on the job of training every Pit in the nation, do not complain when the people decide they don't want to be bothered with a dog designed to kill.

[MadHound]

60. So now even *the* authority on dogs and breeds isn't good enough?

OK, whatever. It seems that you can't back your points up with facts, links or sources. And you're going to reject the leading authority on dogs and breeds in this nation, accusing them of "indiscriminate breeding" and being part of the "pit problem" as you put it. Quite frankly, you're just pissed because the facts are against you, and you have no other options except ad hominems and denial.

Fine then, if you wish to live in a world of paranoid fantasy, where every bad dog du jour is out to kill you personally, that is your choice. But don't ever impose your paranoid world view onto my dogs. God knows, they might lick you to death:eyes:

[friesianrider]

57. GET MAD AT THE PEOPLE BREEDING NOT THE DOGS!

Geez, what is your problem? You're blaming the dogs because greedy irresponsible people are purposely making them a certain way. Totally, totally wrong.

[Zenlitened]

34. "... to make a pit bull(or almost any other dog for that matter) mean..."

Did this owner do the things you've described?

[MadHound]

44. Well, we just don't know for sure

The article doesn't say. But given the tendency of people picking this breed up as a "security dog", and doing half ass training in that regard, given that the article states that the female was in heat and the male was(naturally, as do most breeds)acting aggressive and possesive because of that, I would have to say the owner was irresbonsible and had a poorly trained dog.

So no, I don't know for sure how the owner trained the dog, but judging by what has been stated, I can pretty well infer that she trained and socialized these dogs quite poorly.

[friesianrider]

49. If people just NEUTERED THEIR FUCKING ANIMALS...

Jesus. I've had it. I just don't get why people are so god damn irresponsible with animals, and it is ALWAYS the animals who suffer for their stupidity. I'm not saying pit bulls are fuzzy bunnies when fixed but any animal is a hell of a lot more normal, relaxed, and docile when fixed. The stupid bitch had an unneutered male pit bull with a non-spayed female in heat. She probably bred the dogs and sold the pups, too. People love to get two sub-par dogs from a pet store/friend/pound/street and breed them, thinking they're gonna strike it rich by selling puppies.

Sterlilize your pets, please. And if you're as dumb as this woman, sterilize yourself while you're at it.

[LisaL]

10. I said the same thing back then-this woman should

be prosecuted. She is just unbelievable.

[Book Lover]

75. And I was one of those people, but now

that I've seen and heard her (she's getting a good amount of local press here in SFBA), I am starting to think otherwise. She locked the kid and not the dogs in the basement, and that was supposed to be the safe and smart thing to do? Please, the woman appears at the very least negligent.

[Lerkfish]

2. several things:

1. the woman was negligent, clearly, and did not provide a safe place for her child vs. the dogs...BUT

2. People react to grief in different ways. A lot of people think "its god's will" is comforting.
what she said was just a variation on that. The first thing you feel at the loss of a child is shock, you're numb. You don't care anymore what people think of you. You feel suicidal and you become an automaton for a while until you allow the hurt back into your heart.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. The worst thing about this, IMO

is that this horrid death could have been prevented. I am perfectly willing to excuse this mother's comments about God's plan for her child. But I CANNOT excuse her locking this child in the basement. She KNEW this dog was dangerous. She KNEW her child could be hurt. But she locked up her child and NOT the dog? I believe the shovel against the door would have kept the dog away from the child if the dog had been locked up instead of the child. Mom's priorities were with the dog, not her child.

I hope they lock her up for a loooong time.

[NNN0LHI]

6. I have never been to a wake where without fail...

...several people comment on the deceased while looking into the casket with the quote "oh my, he/she looks so good". I always just nod my head in agreement but I sure as hell would like to say to them no, the dude is dead and looked a hell of a lot better alive. But I never do.

Don

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. My mother was great at wakes

She was such a pro.

Her line, when she took a look at the stiff, was always (and she never understood, bless her soul, why I found it so funny) the same:

"Oh, he looks just like himself!"

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

15. Um gee, what should she have said? "those bad bad dogs!"

Fate is fate... she's right.

And she didn't say "OH WELL"... you did. Sure made it sound good for YOUR position though.

There was nothing callous about her statement.. it's merely an utterly simplistic rationale to a horrific event. You wanted her to wax philosophical about it? She knows she's to blame.

[LisaL]

16. Fate? You have got to be kidding. She knows the dogs are

dangerous. She locks her child in the basement and goes out to run errands. Why didn't she take the child with her? Why didn't she get rid of the dogs if she knew they were dangerous? She got 3 children, and she plans on breeding dangerous dogs. That ain't fate, that's criminal negligence.
:spank:

[Redstone]

40. Balls. What she said was what she said.

She didn't say "this was my fault; I should never have left him in the house with those dogs."

She said "He wouldn't listen," and "it was his time."

Like it was HIS fucking fault, and not hers.

She's a cold-blooded lunatic, and needs to be removed from society.

Redstone

[XemaSab]

21. I totally agree

I was reading this article in the Chrinicle about it (may have been a reprint) and I found myself thinking the reporter was engaging in editorialization just by letting the woman run her mouth.

So she's afraid of what the dogs will do to her son. She locks the kid in the basement while she goes out. She comes home and the kid is dead, killed by the dogs. She says she told the kid to stay put and if he got killed it was his own fault. She then sums it up with a hearty "well, shit happens."

Manslaughter at the very least.

[KittyWampus]

24. Why Would She Lock Her SON In Basement & Not Dogs? Why whywhy.

this sucks I hate the shit. fuckfuckfuck

[radwriter0555]

26. I'm sure the dogs were too powerful and aggressive for her to get INTO

the basement.

She SHOULD have called animal control, but hell, there are people on DU that don't know how to call Animal Control.

And she knew they'd take the dogs from her too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. She should have taken her son, while she ran her errands.

If she had, her son would not have been mauled to death, at least not on that particular day.

[shanti]

41. and she says she had

"not regrets about that day"....good god.:-(

[AussieInCA]

28. more info from the sf chronicle...didnt want her clothes ripped up...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL&hw=maul&sn=008&sc=544

"Maureen Faibish said she put Nicholas rather than the dogs in the basement because the room, which also served as a playroom for the children, was filled with plastic bags in preparation of their move. She figured the dogs would have destroyed the bags filled with clothes."

don't want those clothes damage..nooooo.

[Gold Metal Flake]

33. Two bullets would have solved the problem.

Worthless breed.

[Tsiyu]

68. There were plastic bags of laundry and the dogs would tear them up!

They were about to move, and those plastic bags in the basement were FAR more important than a kid who won't listen!

As a mother and dog owner, I find this disgusting and tragic.

Poor kid...

[Horse with no Name]

36. I shared a story

about a pit ripping the entire face off of a child and disfiguring him permanently.
The parents chose to keep the dog because "he was their pet and was like family"--even though he chewed the lips, ears, skin, muscle, tissue, eyelids...everything off of this child.
It was Oklahoma where you only have to put the dog down after the second attack. He gets a free ride the first time.:sarcasm:

[shanti]

39. you do know that

you're opening up this can of worms all over again? don't you remember the thread when the story first broke? it was getting ridiculous. this thread is going to blow up too.

[Redstone]

42. Uh, not, actually I didn't see it the first time. If the mods want

to lock it because it might turn into a flame war, I'd invite them to go ahead and do so.

I wouldn't have posted it in LBN if I had known it wasn't new. First I saw of it was on the CNN website this morning.

Sorry about the mistake. I do like to speak my mind, but I'm not here to start any flamewars.

Redstone

[Junkdrawer]

48. Good chance she kept the dogs for "protection"...

See Bowling for Columbine - substitute "guard dog" for "guns".

Also see:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/08/EDGDLD4G1S1.DTL

[Gormy Cuss]

64. One critical piece missing from all the coverage I've read

I'm in the Bay Area and I have yet to see any comment from the husband, the dogs' Alpha. Why hasn't a reporter stuck a mike in his face yet?

The mother is blathering on and on about the good dogs and garnering less sympathy all the time. If she knew the male was aggressive because the bitch was in heat and that her son couldn't be trusted to follow her instructions, her decision to leave him there was highly irresponsible. There is a serious disconnect in the way she talks about it, seemingly more interested in defending the breed than talking about her son.

Her comment about it was his time to go is the rationalization I've heard repeated from clergy, especially Catholic priests, when a child dies. It's the only thing this woman has been quoted as saying that I DON'T find disturbing.

[Redstone]

66. Well, I could understand her saying "it's his time to go" if he was sick

with cancer or something, but he would have been alive today if she had not done what she did.

That's hardly "fate." That's criminal negligence.

Redstone

[Gormy Cuss]

71. I agree with you.

But I have had the displeasure of witnessing clergy try to console by saying it was God's will even when the death was anything but natural causes (murder, drunk driver, etc.) I've never been able to understand that reasoning but it seems to comfort the grieving faithful.

Civil action should address whether her actions were criminally negligent. As I posted earlier, she is rapidly losing sympathy because of her quick defense of the breed. She apparently told off Mayor Gavin Newsom when he called to offer condolences because Gavin has announced his intent to propose restriction on pit bulls. She told the SF Chronicle reporter of this exchange. She would do well to remember the way the Presa Canario owners' comments sunk them in the Diane Whipple case (for those who don't remember, she was the coach killed by neighbor's dogs in SF a few years back.)

[Kadie]

74. Here is the link to the thread I posted Saturday night

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3837949&mesg_id=3837949

Very disturbing.


Mother shut boy in basement to protect him from pit bull
12-year-old was killed by family dog; owner sees loss as tragic accident but defends breed as making good pets
C.W. Nevius and Cecilia M. Vega, Chronicle Staff Writers

Sunday, June 12, 2005


Hours before being mauled to death by the family pit bull, 12-year-old Nicholas Faibish had been told to stay in the basement separated from the dogs, said his distraught mother, Maureen Faibish, who called The Chronicle on Saturday, trying to make sense of what she called a "freak accident.''

"I put him down there, with a shovel on the door,'' said Faibish, who had left the boy alone with the dogs on June 3 to run some errands. "He had a bunch of food. And I told him, 'Stay down there until I come back.' Typical Nicky, he wouldn't listen to me.''

Faibish said she was concerned that the male pit bull, Rex, was acting possessive because the female, Ella, was in heat. Apparently, Nicholas found a way to get the door open and come upstairs. At that point Faibish believes he walked in while the dogs were mating and was attacked by Rex.

"It was Rex, I know it in my heart,'' Faibish said. "My younger dog (Ella) was in heat and anyone who came near her, Rex saw as a threat. He may have been trying to mate. It was a freak accident. It was just the heat of the moment.''

Faibish felt compelled to call The Chronicle, she said, because she was upset by comments in a Saturday column that disparaged family members who own pit bulls.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/PITBULL.TMP