I have a problem with, I am against the Iraq war but support the troops

[still_one]

The first term of the * administration I might go with that. No one knew that he would invade Iraq based on lies and deceit, but with * winning the second term along with congress, there is NO EXCUSE!!!

The killing that is being done in OUR name is DONE by OUR SOLDIERS, the majority who voted for bush.

Is the argument, I was just following orders justified?

I think not

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. What makes you think the military vote was a majority for Bush?

Has that been published anywhere? The dribs and drabs I've seen have been overwhelmingly in favor of Kerry. The counties in NJ that reported the overseas military vote were running something like 70%+ for Kerry.

I live in a military area and can only think of one person at the base who voiced support for Bush.

Besides that, even if Bush did win a majority of the military vote, which I highly doubt, he certainly did not capture 100% of it. Should the troops who voted against him be cast aside simply because they are in a minority.

Support the Troops! Bring them Home!

[still_one]

5. what makes you think it wasn't

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-03-bush-troops_x.htm

[EFerrari]

12. Did you check out this poll?

"An unscientific survey of U.S. military personnel shows they support President Bush for re-election by a 4-to-1 ratio. "

What was the ratio of officer votes vs enlisted men? How was this poll taken?

This is propaganda. There is no evidencce whatsoever that the military vote went to His Fakery, and there is evidence that the military vote was tampered with in various ways -- in the voting situation itself, in uncounted ballots and in ballots being processed through the Pentagon.

[still_one]

16. it is a volunteer Army

[EFerrari]

22. That doesn't address the issue of the military vote. Or of

the other more wonderful career choices most of those young people have, but that's a separate issue.

[doublethink]

30. See post #28 n/t

[LynnTheDem]

43. A "volunteer army". As a spouse of a US soldier, let me ask you this;

What does "volunteer army" mean to you?

Do you think that means troops volunteer to go to Iraq, and if they don't volunteer they don't have to go?

Do you think this means troops can simply decide enough, and quit the military?

"Volunteer" means they ORIGINALLY signed a contract of X many years with the military. Several of my hubby's soldiers last signed up with the army in 1998.

They don't "volunteer" to go to Iraq.

They don't get to say "no".

They can't leave the military until their contract end-date, and not even then because bush has a "back-door draft" in place, called a stop-loss. This means even though your contract is up, you can't leave.

You must be aware of the fact the US military is HUGELY below their enlistment quotas; people AREN'T volunteering to join the US military for however many years their contract (plus stop-loss) would be for.

Far too many Americans think "voluntary" means our soldiers CHOSE and CHOOSE to be in Iraq. Not even close.

[smartvoter]

17. Further, Shrub's lead shrunk from 51.5% to 50.75% when all the

absentee and military votes were in and counted.

[EFerrari]

25. Wow, I didn't know that. Figures. n/t

[smartvoter]

33. Learned it in the 2004 results forum. nt

[insane_cratic_gal]

34. I'd agree propaganda

Also please keep in mind, the republican's claim to be pro military, "support the troops." until that troop comes out against the lies and the war. They are just labeled "Un-American!"

Under this Regime the Military is having most of their bennies cut. Hospitals are being shut down, they are losing their houses and jobs, bills aren't being paid. The divorce rate is up, they are coming home unable to function.
When you ignore the crisis, how is that supporting the troops? They won't hear this truth on fox news because fox will not be critical of BushCO

Sending a care package is great, and appreciated, but you aren't supporting them. Your doing something nice, an unselfish act. (pay attention freepers)

If your supporting them, your fighting to get them out. Your fighting to make sure they have proper health care. Your fighting to be sure they aren't being used as a bully squad to enforce some administration insane power plays.



one more thing I found to ring true. from Moore's site from an airman

"I have echoed the words of that oath as a warning to fellow members of my squadron every single time I have heard an undemocratic syllable from their mouths. I quote, "I solemnly swear to defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic." The last two words are key: and domestic. To all who read this, I urge this warning: the single greatest danger to America and our way of life is ourselves. No foreign power can dictate your oppression. No foreign army can impose martial law upon us. No foreign dictator can remove the precious right that I am exercising at this moment.
Militaries do not keep people free! Militaries keep us safe, but it is we citizens who ensure freedom! Every time we voice our opinion we are promoting freedom. Stationing our armies, navies, and air forces in distant lands and toppling weak regimes does not keep us free. It is through political action and dissent over injustice that we remain free! I say this now to inform concerned Americans of what I have witnessed firsthand as citizen soldier in the U.S. Air Force: your soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines need instruction on what government by consent means; they need a refresher course in Constitutional government; they need to be reminded that their loyalties lie not to the person in office but to the ideals of the Constitution."


but it is we citizens who ensure freedom, you, me, us making sure those freedoms and our press can't be bought and sold by our Government. This is how we support the troops. We remain diligent. We fight for what is right for them, and what is right for the people of Iraq.

Edit: Military family here and both my husband and I voted for Kerry.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/willtheyevertrustusagain/index.php?id=28

[Pacifist Patriot]

36. Um, already answered. Did you not read my post or just the headline?

Someone is going to have to post SOE results specific to the military vote for me to know for certain, but the scant evidence we do have leans towards a military majority for Kerry.

[I Have A Dream]

9. Wow! I'm really surprised in reference to your experience.

(I'm glad to hear it though.)

I feel the same way that you do; there definitely are some people in the military who do not support Bush. Because of these people, I have to support the troops. These people joined the military believing that they would only be called upon to sacrifice their lives for our country for legitimate purposes, which is certainly not the case in Iraq.

I don't understand the people in the military who support Bush. However, I think that they'll always support a Republican in the White House regardless of what he/she does.

(ON EDIT: However, I'd never have one of the magnets on my car because I think that people would immediately think that I supported the war as well.)

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. The idea of a Republican military isn't really all that accurate.

Certainly the Republican party has done a tremendous propaganda job of claiming to be the party of the military...<at the same time they rape and plunder their benefits and their awards.> However, I do not believe the Republicans have a lock on a majority of military voters as much as they have presented the perspective of having one. We've bought into the idea.

I'm a precinct captain in a precinct that lies right outside of a military base. We have quite a few active duty, reservist and retired military personal living here. Those who are registered to vote at all are overwhelmingly registered as NPA and then the rest evenly split between Republican and Democrat. The same holds true for another military installation in another state to which I am privy to the same information.

I would bet dollars to donuts that this trend runs throughout the military.

[EFerrari]

49. I subscribed to The Army Times just after the war was started

because I wanted to have *some* venue to hear voices of real soldiers. And after reading there for a few weeks, I knew Bush would probably not get that vote.

That was before I found DU, of course. :)

[Squeech]

2. I say

supporting the troops has a lot more to do with what happens after they've been fighting. (Notwithstanding the "hillbilly armor" issue.)

When Smirky cancels promised raises in military and combat pay, when the Repuke congress cuts appropriations for veterans' services, when they order the VA not to tell our soldiers about benefits they've earned, then we're entitled to question who "supports our troops" and who doesn't.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Wouldn't it be something ...........

........... if the soldiers refused to go along with this filthy escapade, put down their weapons, and told the military to go ahead and court martial all of them?

Can you imagine just the administrative logjam, the absolute nightmare that would ensue, the utter relief so many of us would feel?

[Kolesar]

4. The draftees in Vietnam did just that

Units refused to go into battle. Officers were murdered. I think this Army will just run out of gas and not be able to fight though. They are too dedicated to revolt.

I think still_one has a fair thesis to start this thread.

[still_one]

10. many of the wounded soldiers, want to go back to Iraq

though I personnaly believe it is more due to bonding than patriotism

[EFerrari]

19. I had a fantasy once of every Mom in America withholding their

draft bait's birth certificate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. "Support the troops" is mindless flagwaving.

Right up there with "America, love it or leave it", or, "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer".

Plays well with the "God Bless America" crowd who are fond of displays of military might and flags on their cars.

[semillama]

7. It's a lot more complex than how you present it.

My best friend is in Iraq right now, and he's not killing anyone. He commands an EOD company, and he and his men are saving lives, period.

So, yeah, I support the troops. The troops are US. They are our family and friends.

and killing civilians, while tragic and reprehensible, is going to happen. it's a war. never has there been a war without civilian casualties. The tactics of insurgents in Iraq have resulted in responses by American forces that do result in killing of civilians. but I think you would be forced to stretch real far to say that soldiers are deliberately targeting civilians.

[still_one]

13. It is a war that was unecessary

It is very easy to write off nameless civillians, isn't it?

the "tatics of the insurgents" are what caused us to kill civillians?

we are in the middle of a civil war and do not even realize it

The killing stopped in Viet Nam after we left

Who gave much of the chemical and biological weapons to hussein in the first place?

NOT IN MY NAME!!!

[Toots]

45. The killing stopped in Viet Nam after we left

If only that were true. NVA troops went into Cambodia and created complete havoc:shrug: It has stopped now though and they even welcome us as friends.

[EFerrari]

29. Unfortunately, even if your friend isn't pulling the trigger, he and

his men are still part of the war effort, which is an illegal invasion of an innocent nation.

And war brutalizes everyone involved, so yes, soldiers eventually do deliberately target civilians. It happens in every war.

I'll support any soldier's effort to get the hell out of Iraq and come home in one piece.

/t

[still_one]

31. remember the lessons of Viet Nam

[Devlzown]

8. I know several veterans of this war.

One is a very good friend who is going to be sent back over there later this year. All but one of these guys is completely against this war, and that one who thinks the war is great isn't very bright. If I was one of them and was faced with either a tour in Iraq or being charged with desertion, I think I'd probably take my chances in Iraq.

[still_one]

14. It is a volunteer Army

no one forces anyone to go.

[Devlzown]

18. These people signed up before the war started.

So I would say yeah, they're forced to go.

[tex-wyo-dem]

23. Yes it's volunteer, but once you've signed your name...

on the dotted line your body is property of the US government, plain and simple. Your commanders tell you what to do and if you refuse you can be put in prison for insubordination.

I support the troops 1000% as they are just pawns in all of this...it's the high commanders who need to be put in prison for war crimes.

[doublethink]

28. What are you thought on ''Stop Loss"

the backdoor draft measures? Did our military men in uniform sign up for that? This volunteer Army bullshit is just too simple a term for some of our soldiers in the conflict at this point. And I still can't for the life of me figure out why our NATIONAL GUARD is over there, did all those guys sign up to go fight oveseas? :wtf: Peace. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

35. Aside from stop loss mentioned above, which is an excellent point...

Economic oppression makes the military one of the few, if not the only, viable option for the poverty-stricken. Bet if they had more options some of them might not "volunteer" for military service.

[doublethink]

11. Some families of fallen soldiers .........

May 7, 2005

As the official casualty count for the occupation of Iraq is rapidly approaching 1600 and on the eve of Mother’s Day, Gold Star Families for Peace issues the following statement to George W. Bush:

We represent families of fallen American troops who oppose the occupation of Iraq and refuse to let George W. Bush continue the killing in our name. We support the immediate withdrawal of American and Coalition Forces from Iraq.

George W. Bush has consistently iterated the hurtful and meaningless phrase: We need to keep our troops in Iraq to finish the mission to honor the sacrifices of fallen heroes. We at Gold Star Families for Peace disagree with George Bush on this and most other of his activities and words. It is too late for our loved ones and our families. Our sons and daughters; brothers and sisters; nieces and nephews; husbands and wives have already been killed in this needless and senseless war. We don’t want one more innocent person murdered, especially in our names. Just because our soldier’s blood has already been spilled does not mean we families are thirsty for more. We insist that George W. Bush stop justifying his bloodlust by assuming we families are blood thirsty also. -snip-

more here ...... http://gsfp.org/ Peace :)

[still_one]

15. The casulty count is now approaching 1700

what concerns me is that no matter who wins in 2008, we will continue this endless war for a long long time

[doublethink]

32. Dude do some research .....

the post above is part of a letter posted at a site dated May 7, and if you think this is the only 'war' which will be going on through 2008 (if we make it that far) then you might want to look up PNAC and a few other subjects on this 'endless war on terrorism' Peace. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. Should have read your post first.

Do you feel as sullied as I do when you research the PNAC? I linked to their site and it made me feel dirty just copying and pasting the URL. *shudder*

[doublethink]

51. Yes I always have to go wash my hands .....

after clicking on one of those sites too. But what other choice do we have? :( .... the MSM isn't going to broadcast any of this stuff... :( .... so we just keep copying and pasting URL's to all our correspondence, e-mails, posts, etc... etc... and keep washing our hands. I always liked your name 'Pacifist Patriot' and your posts too. your cool. :toast: Peace.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. Thanks!

:toast:

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. Which war?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

[smartvoter]

20. There is no choice for the troops. nt

[Walt Starr]

21. I have a problem with anybody who does not support the troops

and will always have a problem with people like that.

[Pacifist Patriot]

42. I have a problem with it at a very basic level.

The inherent worth and dignity of every human being. Volunteering for military duty which may place you in the unenviable position of taking other human lives does not strip you of your inherent value. As much as it hurts to say it, even GWB has inherent value. Of course, his value lies in Crawford, not in Washington. ;)

[Just Me]

24. Too bad. I have no problem simultaneously supporting our troops,...

,...while fighting the deceptive, corrupt BushCo/neoCONs who have betrayed all of us, including our troops.

Moreover, the consequences of a soldier's decision to defy the US government are serious and destructive: complete loss of liberty, of economic opportunities, of contact with loved ones, of "reputation", etc.

Seems everyone suffers punishment except the war criminals in the White House.

[sendero]

26. I'm not going....

.... to tar the whole for the actions of a few. I am certain that support within the military for this "war" is evaporating like a quick rain on hot concrete.

Most people entering the military sign up for a simple reason. They are promised certain benefits in return for pledging to defend our country. Many do so with a sense of duty. But all essentially give up their freedom for a time to serve. That is nothing to treat lightly.

They are not the ones who decided to do this invasion, but they are the ones sacrificing. I support the troops and I support the military in general. We might actually need them to defend the country some day, and I appreciate that they are there to do so.

[Qanisqineq]

27. I have a problem with, I am pro-war and support the troops

Doesn't make much sense to me. Especially when they are not being provided with adequate armor and all the veterans that are homeless and without healthcare. All the National Guard that are serving 12-18 months in Iraq, leaving their regular job, and are not provided with the same healthcare benefits as the active duty army. The list goes on and on.

Shameful.

[Norquist Nemesis]

37. Then try this...

I'm against the Iraq War but I'm confident our troops will prevail. They're risking their lives and dying to pull Bush's ass out of the fire.


(or some such idea)

[Solly Mack]

38. So don't support them. It's that simple.

I understand that you can't ethically reconcile the two seemingly contradictory concepts (Not supporting the war/but supporting the troops) I fully understand your point.

I'm just saying there's no reason to feel the need to justify not supporting the troops. If you don't, you don't. It's no biggie.

People define support of the troops in different ways. Look at Bush-he claims to support the troops but the reality shows he doesn't give a damn about them. Much like the John and Jane Q. Publics of America who wrap themselves in the flag, and display their yellow ribbon magnets, but never once lobby Congress to increase Veteran benefits. Those types only offer meaningless feel-good support. It only benefits them since it makes them feel good, but it does not help a single soldier.

I would define support of the troops as not starting illegal wars. (among other things)...with not starting illegal wars being at the top.


I know this will come as a huge blow to the ego for some, but while those in the military greatly appreciate people being concerned and supportive of them, they really don't care when people are not supportive. It's not as if a lack of support is going to stop anything or keep them alive. It just doesn't register on the "things that are important to me" scale.

Government not being supportive is another matter. I'm strictly talking the American people.

[Karenina]

44. Cymbal crash!

:loveya:

[Solly Mack]

46. Hallo!

:loveya:
bacatcha

[deutsey]

47. I'm opposed to Bush's militarism

Through my taxes I support the troops and through my anti-Bush activism I have tried to prevent our troops from being sent into unnecessary "wars" that support Bush's corporate imperialism.

Beyond that, I don't get weepy eyed about those serving in the armed forces, nor do I condemn them. As a nation, we need a military to "provide for the common defense." The question is how are we, as a country, going to use our military.

There are some great people serving in the military. There are some real despicable assholes, too, and there's everyone in between.

The real issue for me isn't supporting them or not supporting them (whatever that's supposed to mean). The issue is actively opposing the militarism of the whackjob in the White House and his cronies.

[nonconformist]

48. It's a naive, narrow-minded viewpoint

It reeks of little real-life experience or any understanding about the enlisted military. I'm afraid to ask what your non-support actually means.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3765695

[EFerrari]

50. On reflection, still_one, I see what you're meaning I think.

And this thread is a good reminder that as the evidence of the fraud that put our people in Iraq becomes clearer and clearer to more and more people, it's going to be harder to separate our people from their commanders and their effen' policy.

We all need to put a note on the 'frig or something, because it's inevitable that our troops will be confused with the criminals that are getting them dead, wounded or otherwise harmed. It's not a bad idea to know this and to prepare for it, fwiw.