Did Democrats end up winning on Filibuster or Losing?

[Quixote1818]

Now that people have had time to think about this lets see where everyone ended up at least for the time being. Many Dem's think we won and many think we lost. What is your take?

[bemildred]

1. Who is "we"?

The people lost any way you slice it, but then that is not new.

[TheFarseer]

2. it's too early to tell

If they just bring the nuclear option back next month, we definitely lost. If nuclear option isn't an issue before we win back the senate, then we definitely won.

[nolabels]

5. No it isn't, the plan all along was never be called out when your bluffing

Many Dems were ready for a rumble, but chicken-shit republicans always like to ambush so the time wasn't of their making. The republicans don't have any set rules (or morals) but you can always bet on seeing them attacking sooner or later. Actually they remind me of the creatures in this movie


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0783226837/002-6043100-2158414?v=glance#product-details

[high density]

3. Ask me again when Bush starts nominating Supreme Court justices

It's too early to tell so far.

[BillZBubb]

4. No contest: The Republicans kicked our asses.

They'll get all the nominess appointed that they care about. They can still kill the filibuster whenever they want. They look "reasonable" for compromising-the Democrats through them a lifeline when they were about to drown.

We got????? That's right, the SHAFT!

[LynnTheDem]

7. Hmmm...and yet we DO still have the filibuster. Had we forced a vote, we

would have lost. End of story.

So. We still have the filibuster. bush doesn't get his 10 sailing through. Frist is being torn several new ones by the right and articles are all over the place calling him a total lame duck. The right says we won & they lost and are busily attacking each other. And they didn't get the one thing they wanted; an end to the filibuster.

And we still have the filibuster.

Pretty damn good for a minority of 40 seats out of 100.

Boy yeah, we were shafted. :eyes:

[BillZBubb]

8. Baloney.

We gained nothing, they got Priscilla Owens on the court without a fight. They'll get Brown and Pryor without a fight. For four years the Democrats have said not one of them is fit to serve on the bench. For four years the Democrats have said they would fight to keep them off the bench. The Democrats didn't fight at all.

We don't "still have the filibuster". That's bullshit. We've got nothing. They'll kill the filibuster the first time the Democrats try to block a nominee they want. Had we really preserved the filibuster by forcing the Repugs to admit it is a legitimate tool of the minority, then we would have something to be happy about. Instead we've got nothing. We lost, face the facts, and get out of denial.

[LynnTheDem]

9. Have you noticed, we are a minority with 40 out of 100 seats? Have you

noticed that in fact, despite rhetoric, we do in fact still have the filibuster?

Instead of 10 nuts, bush got 3.

Instead of a showdown vote which the right would have won, they got no vote and a deal that is going to reflect badly on them if & when they break it.

Instead of an end to the filibuster, the filibuster still survives.

We won; "face the facts, and get out of denial."

[FrenchieCat]

10. But,

How can we think we still have the filibuster to use,
If we can't use it? :shrug:

[LynnTheDem]

12. Of course we can use it.

And of course the rightwingnuts can again demand a show-down vote in their "nuclear option".

And if the votes are still as they were last week, we'd lose.

But we did, in fact, gain things;

-Frist was dealt a body-blow and by the articles making the rounds, it looks like a possibly fatal one.

-The rightwingnuts are attacking each other and further dividing the repub party. That's always a good thing for us. Always.

-The right declaring it a total win for us & total loss for them is great for our perception.

(And ANYONE silly enough to post back to me saying perception in politics means shit, DON'T EVEN try...unless we're now saying repubs really ARE "party of family values" and "culture of life" and "fiscally responsible" and "small government" and "bush never lies" etc.)

-bush was yet again shown up as a lame duck.

-Time. Time to bring the issue to public attention, time to prepare for the next showdown.

Had Reid forced a vote, we would have lost.

The filibuster would be no more. We would have lost the Frist body-blow, we would have lost the rightwingnuts attacking each other & further dividing the repub party, we would have lost the right bitching & moaning about our win & their loss, we would have lost public interest in the whole thing which would ensure the loss of the filibuster for good, and bush would have sailed his 10 nutcase "judges" through.

And all of that may still happen; but it didn't happen then and it has not happened yet.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. Once again .... we got punk'd

Best thing wouldda bin we lost .... then we wouldda won. Like this explains:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3697382
(now archived)

[UdoKier]

11. We lost, but there was no "tricking".

The dems who went for the "compromise" were fully aware of its meaning, and are the same dems who have been facilitating the democratic party's slo-mo suicide for the last 5 or more years. This was the time to stand on principle. We got diddly. A filibuster that we can't use.

[LynnTheDem]

13. We got more than that. And we got a filibuster we certainly can use.

And we use it, we may lose it for good.

But we DIDN'T lose it for good last week and had Reid forced the rightwingnut's "nuclear option" we WOULD have lost the filibuster for good.

Poor Dems; damned if they do, damned if they don't...by their own side.

[Quixote1818]

14. I agree, we came out on top

Frist HAD the votes and we got as good a deal as was possible considering we could have lost everything. It was lose, lose for us but Republicans had a LOT more to gain and didn't. We probably saved Roe vs. Wade by retaining the filibuster. They wanted Ten Judges and only got 3 who will get a vote. We did very well in my opinion.


Had we lost the filibuster, then we would have been in really bad shape!!!!! No one seems to consider what that would have been like.

[FrenchieCat]

16. I'm thinking that it means that they would have gotten

an up or down vote on those judges that they are getting an up or down vote on.

Maybe them going Nuclear would have provided us with the perfect issue for 2006. Americans don't like to see anyone with too much power. It's too much fun to watch those with power fall. But, we'll never know....so guess it does little good for me to be theorizing.

[LynnTheDem]

22. And America may still lose the filibuster. And we'd all be in really bad

shape.

But at the very least, we TRIED, and we can say & prove we tried.

I found it hilarious how some posters (not on this thread) remarked that we "had public opinion" with us for forcing the repugs' "nuclear option".

Ummm...AND???

We also had the US majority OPPOSED TO INVADING IRAQ. We had the overwhelming US majority OPPOSED to bush's bullshit medicare plan. The US majority OPPOSED bush's $85 billion pork bill for Iraq last year, and APPROVED of Kerry's alternate bill. And we're now Iraqmired, saddled with a bankrupt medicare program that even the repugs are trying to overturn, and bush's $85 billion of pork has already been stolen from us.

Gee, good thing we had US PUBLIC OPINION with us! :eyes:

Had we forced a vote, we would have lost, and had the US majority still bothered to be opposed to the repugs ending the filibuster it wouldn't have mattered a damn. Just like it didn't matter for Iraq, and it didn't matter for medicare, and it didn't matter for the loss of our money.

We may still lose; but we TRIED.

[Quixote1818]

15. If the compromise was not worded that way then we would have lost for sure

At least now we have the filibuster (which we can and will use come Supreme Court time) PLUS they only get to vote on 3 judges and not the ten they wanted to vote on. Sorry but we spanked them! They could have totally kicked our ass out of the Ball Park and if that had happened then you would be thinking this is a fantastic deal.

[UdoKier]

18. They can just as easily use the "nuclear option" when the time comes.

We should have insisted on it being removed as an option for good. They did get the three nuttiest judges after all.

But tune in to Al Franken tomorrow morning, he'll tell you how it's a great win.

Some democrats like being neutered.

They won and they know it.

Amazing you guys fall for the feigned disappointment of the likes of Dobson and Frist. They are just fine....

[Quixote1818]

21. Bull shit, Dobson and Frist wanted it ALL! They wanted to go Nuclear

and then shove all ten judges down our throats plus stack the Supreme Court and their would have been nothing we could have done about it. Cheer up and look on the bright side.

We still have the filibuster and come Supreme Court time we can use it and all they can do is threaten to go nuclear but the General Public will be pissed if they go nuclear when all the marbles are at stake. The public is on our side on this issue and will be more so if it's the Supreme Court. The Republicans would not dare go nuclear then. Not to mention that would be "extraordinary circumstances" under any person's definition. Dems would be in the clear to Filibuster for as long as they like. Think about it.

Then again our only other option would have been to force the vote or walk out.

We would have lost the vote and lost the filibuster. If we walked out we would have looked like a kid who wanted to take his ball and go home. Republicans are pissed for a reason. They HAD ULTIMATE, UNLIMITED power at their fingertips and it slipped right through for a measly 3 judges. They should be fuming!!!!

[UdoKier]

23. LOL. The ever-predictable refrain of the moderate democrat.

"The democrats will stand up and fight - next time, when the time is right, someday, eventually...


They never do, and you guys just gobble up the little scraps.

"all they can do is threaten to go nuclear but the General Public will be pissed if they go nuclear"


LMAO!!! That's the best one I've heard all day! Like ANYBODY cared about this other than political junkies! Your average American hasn't an inkling as to the importance of the filibuster or these court appointments. When Rehnquist or Stevens steps down and Bush is nominating Dr. Mengele as the next Supreme Court Justice, Americans will be biting their nails about shark attacks or whether Justin is really the father of Cameron's baby or WHATEVER. When they nuke the filibuster but good, AMERICA WILL NOT CARE.

"The public is on our side on this issue and will be more so if it's the Supreme Court. The Republicans would not dare go nuclear then."

Oh, the naive faith you have in the apathetic and ignorant American public. I'd be willing to bet that more than half of them do NOT KNOW WHAT A FILIBUSTER EVEN IS.

"They HAD ULTIMATE, UNLIMITED power at their fingertips and it slipped right through for a measly 3 judges."

Keep telling yourself that. Those "measly judges" were some of the worst corporate stooges ever sent to the judiciary. I only hope you don't have to go up against a corporation in their jurisdiction.

And as for Ultimate, Unlimited power, they have it already. And all that anger the fundies put on was theatrics for their lemmings. I don't believe it for a minute. They're in the catbird seat and they know it.

[napi21]

17. We just postponed the confrontation.

I' positive Frist will try again. The one advantage we did gain is to show Frist he isn't in total control like he thought! That was a good thing!!

A few more things like that, and Frist and Shrub just might have to realize they can't always get 100% on everything!

[Selatius]

19. You should've added into the poll: "I cannot tell yet if it was good"

[Swamp Rat]

20. "Is it fascism yet?"

[xchrom]

24. in what universe is adding more judges like owens a loss?

3 or 7 -- and the truth is many nut jobs have made to the bences this time around -- owens was just more visible.

i think the real point to be made here is how to be a minority and grab the power stream and make it work for you?

what we don't see are democrats working in a united front to back down folks like the media to begin to use movements like the filibuster wrangling to their best advantage.

harry reid did an admirable job of geting on the airwaves BY HIMSELF -- but where was a concerted effort, like a symbolic walk-out?

the media will not work for the democrats unless the democrats determine the media MUST work for them.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

25. repukes didn't trick us, they bullied us by sheer numbers, it was theft,

as usual.