Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

[GirlinContempt]

Not sure if this was posted before:

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

[longship]

1. If this isn't First Amendment violation, nothing is. n/t

.

[sasquatch]

2. Welp, so much for the seperation of church and state

And of course no one gives a fuck.

[GirlinContempt]

10. It's pretty sad

:\

[Maat]

3. Ummm ... isn't this unconstitutional?

As a violation of the Free Exercise Clause?

[GirlinContempt]

11. I would think so

[FreedomAngel82]

4. Isn't this against the Bill of Rights?

[autorank]

5. They'd want to stay away from my version of PAGAN

PAGAN: People Against Goodness And Normality


Christopher Plummer as "Reverend Jonathan Whirley" Chief PAGAN in
the 1987 DRAGNET (with Tom Hanks). Great movie!!!

[lenidog]

7. We just like to dance in our goatskin pants around an ancient ruin

;-)

[autorank]

9. And I'l fight to my death to protect your earth given right to do so!

:yourock:

[lenidog]

13. Now you have got me wanting to watch that movie

(ps my header is a line from the Dragnet song)


BTW Does that include sacrificing a virgin to a giant snake. ;)

[autorank]

27. "The Virgin Connie Swale" --- you're psychic, like all those Pagans!

This movie is worth turning on, I mean renting. It has a great cast and it stands up. The Virgin Connie Swale is a central character. No snakes but sacrifice is the order of the day. I mean, there's a musical piece to it where Ackroyd and Hanks are dancing, :rofl:

Rend it, if you don't like it I'll shamelessly support any posts you make on DU for an evening!

:evilgrin:

[lenidog]

33. Wait a minute you didn't call her the Virgin Connie Swale!

Opening to Dragnet theme heard;-)

[Maat]

12. I remember that movie!

Corny - but you couldn't help but laugh!

[autorank]

28. It's still funny. If you'd had to watch Dragnet in the 60's, you would

have paid $20 bucks to get in and see this. What a send up.
:rofl:

[lenidog]

6. That judge is seriously wacked

I wonder what Children Services may have told him though.

[GirlinContempt]

16. I don't care WHAT

they've told him.
If they'd told him to take the kid out of his Christian school and not to teach him Christianity, everyone would be flipping out and going nuts

[lenidog]

20. What I am saying is that this may go deeper than just the judge

the whole system may be against Wicca and need an attitude adjustment.

[GirlinContempt]

21. More than likely

you're correct

[Maat]

18. I was with CPS for several years.

And now I'm a law graduate.

I was always able to honor the parents' wishes - even when they had been busted at a meth lab and were going up the river for several years.

Occasionally, there would be a to-do when parents were going up the river, kids were going with Grandma, and there would be a dispute then; we always worked it out.

I've seen this be an issue between parents - never an issue if BOTH parents agreed. Mystifying.

I would NEVER have told a parent how to raise their child in terms of spirituality.

This would have been against the law (at least in our department's mind) and against policy. That a judge would be a party to this is confusing.

In fact, I never told 'em how to raise their child - informed of the law I did - and their options.

People never complained about our court (Dependency Court), but there were always complaints about Family Law Court.

[Erika]

8. I have a good friend who is Wiccan

and he's a fine person. Maybe the judge will provide a list of the mainstream religions he finds ok. Yet, another good reason, for keeping religion and government separate. People will finally see that the ALCU is one of the few threads of freedom left to us after Bush's influence.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. Yep

Thank goodness for the ACLU. And alot of people hate them. We need the ACLU. Especially now days. When this happens to people like this it's like "So what?" but when it happens to someone who claims to be Christian it's like "they're being persecuted!!!!" and they freak out and get pissed off. :mad:

[lenidog]

19. The only problem I have with the ACLU

is that sometimes I wish they would spread their wings a little more to cover more of the Bill of Rights. Just because they are the most powerful defense we have for the Bill of Rights.

[AndyTiedye]

30. I Must Assume You Are Dissing Them Over the 2nd Amendment

but the NRA really has got that covered, and they've got a lot more
money than the ACLU ever dreamed of having,
and it ALL goes to what they consider 2nd Amendment issues.

The ACLU has to spread its resources among all of them, and the rest
of the Constitution too.
I don't think the ACLU would turn down a good 2nd Amendment case, but
they might encourage you to talk to the folks who specialize in that,
and you would be well-advised to do so, since they are much better funded,
and have all the lawyers who are experienced in that kind of case.

If I assumed wrong, what are they missing? There have been continual
assaults on the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments by the
government ever since 9/11. The ACLU has been doing what it can to
pursue redress for these in the courts. The 9th and 10th amendments are being
violated as well, but that is a much harder case to make. AFAIK, they
have not violated the 3rd Amendment lately.

[lenidog]

38. No I wasn't thinking that maybe my perception is off

Its seems all you ever hear about is either separation of church and state and free speech. As I preceive it they are very quiet on all other matters.

[lenidog]

17. I have had several friends who are wiccans

and had two girlfriends who were Wiccans. (I am not I am a deist) All are fine and good people two. If the US Army can recognize it, then its time for the rest of the country to get the message.

[Tux]

23. Crap

My gf is Wiccan and I'm a deist. Weird. I just hope that being non-Christian will lead to camps, prisons, or death but it may happen. Can't put anything past Christians.

[lenidog]

24. That is a little weird and coincidental but it also shows you the power

of the net to bring people together. Of course with the type of friends of have the judge of all my girlfriends (My friend Sophie who I have known since I was five) was more worried when she thought I said that my girlfriend had left a convent instead of a coven. When I corrected her she was fine with that. ;-) AS to the rest I am very well armed deist and quite in Jeffersons idea that revolution is a good thing every now and then.

[Tux]

31. Once I get a job

Local National Guard will be jealous.

[lenidog]

32. When you make the rednecks jealous

that is when you know you have done it right. ;) I ended up getting a collectors license from the ATF so I could go down to the gun shows in Maryland and buy if I want. I collect WWII and WWI service rifles and pistols. No real rhyme or reason to it besides I like it or maybe its a unique piece. The only thing I require is that I can take them to the range and shoot them if I want. That means none of them are in mint condition because I feel there is no reason to own them if I can't have fun at the range with them. I have some strange pieces in my collection because of my interests.

[Tux]

35. Expense?

Is a collector's license expensive? I'm thinking of getting one for WW2 rifles and whatever else that gets my interest. Mmmmmm Thompson.

[lenidog]

39. Its only 30 bucks and it allows you to buy from importers

and out of state as if you were a dealer. Now it only works for those items listed as curios and relics. To get a Thompson they would still crawl around your entire life and you would have to pay the apropriate fees. Though it would allow you to get items cheaper and widen your net in your searches for a specific firearm.

Here is the ATF list of Curios and Relics

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm

Basically any service rifle either bolt or semi is considered a curio or relic so it falls under the coverage of the license. The same goes for semi pistols or revolvers that were service pieces.

Forgot the service rifles and pistols have to be made before 1946.

[Tux]

40. What license would cover

AKs and such. I live in FundieLand.

[lenidog]

41. Depending on your state you can go to any gun shop and

as long as you aren't a criminal and or mentally ill you can buy an AK. You don't need a license. I got a collectors license for the the fact that many of the firearms I seek to find are well as rare as hens teeth and some I have hunted for years and never found. I live in PA but the Timonium fairgrounds are only 30 minutes away in Maryland. They at least twice a year have a huge gunshow down there. The problem was I never went because if I did and wanted to buy something I would have to buy it then make arrangements with the dealer I bought it from to ship it up here to another dealer then pay him a fee to transfer it to me. So I am now paying a transfer fee and shipping on top of the cost to move the thing 30 miles and do it legally. With the ATF license I can go to Timonium buy my WWI or WWII pistol or rifle, give him a copy of my license, fill out the paperwork and take it home. For that matter I can do that in any state in the union now.

PS because I am a collector that is why I hate the stupid idea that you must be limited to one gun purchase a month.

[smartvoter]

15. Ah. Here is the real danger of strategic benching. nt

[PowerToThePeople]

22. Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court

Asshole.

[TahitiNut]

25. Are the Amish "mainstream"?? Mennonites? Brethren? (I don't think so!)

Then this judge ought to be removing their children from such illegal homes! (I'd love to see this judge try it. Without an armed guard.)

[Ms. Clio]

26. "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' "

said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

(snip)

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

[mermaid]

29. WTF??

What the Flying Fuck??

:wtf:

What if a pagan judge had told parents they could not teach their child Christian beliefs? Specifically fundie whacko "Christian" beliefs?? They'd be spinning on their fucking eyebrows!! This is real horseshit, and most definitely a breach of the separation of Church and State...and a breach of the Freedom of Religion.

Hey, Your "Honor" anyone ever fucking tell you that Freedom of Religion protect ALL Religions, and NOT JUST YOURS?? Meaning it damn well protects SATANISM...and if the parents want to teach THAT to their kid (which they really shouldn't) they still oughta have a right to DO it!!

It's one of the fundamentals of a free people!

[GirlinContempt]

42. Agreed

[Swamp Rat]

34. BuShit!

If I want to initiate my offspring in Vodou, they cannot stop me! :evilgrin:

Bradford has just called a POX upon his own house! x(

[GirlinContempt]

36. That image

is nauseating and hilarious

[Swamp Rat]

37. Oooo!

GREAT compliment!!! :D