Why Progressives should be in favor of public Ten Commandment displays

[Fight_n_back]

Quite simply, the first three commandments are unconstitutional. Therefore the best evidence that the founding fathers didn't base our Constitution on "Biblical Principles" is, in fact, the Bible itself.

Display them at will and then lets discuss how the Founding Fathers made a conscious decision to move PAST the Ten Commandments to a place of REASON. To a place where laws are born from the mind of man through discussion and observation rather than mythology and blind observance of history.

I fully support a class in Public High Schools discussing the religion of the Founding Fathers. Lets invite full discussion on the views of Jefferson, Franklin, John Adams and James Madison.

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

"The difficulty of reconciling the Xn mind to the absence of a religious tuition from a University established by law and at the common expense, is probably less with us than with you. The settled opinion here is that religion is essentially distinct from Civil Govt. and exempt from its cognizance; that a connection between them is injurous to both; that there are causes in the human breast, which insure the perpetuity of religion without the aid of law; that rival sects, with equal rights, exercise mutual censorships in favor of good morals; that if new sects arise with absurd opinions or overheated imaginations, the proper remedies lie in time, forbearance and example; that a legal establishment of religion without a toleration could not be thought of, and without a toleration, is no security for public quiet & harmony, but rather a source itself of discord & animosity; and finally that these opinions are support by experience, which has shewn that every relaxation of the alliance between Law & religion, from the partial example of Holland, to its consummation in Pennsylvania Delaware N.J., &c, has been found as safe in practice as it is sound in theory. Prior to the Revolution, the Episcopal Church was established by law in this State. On the Declaration of independence it was left with all other sects, to a self-support. And no doubt exists that there is much more of religion among us now than there ever was before the change; and particularly in the Sect which enjoyed the legal patronage. This proves rather more than, that the law is not necessary to the support of religion.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Everett, March 19, 1823; from Jack N. Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 796, quoted from Freethought Web, "The Words of Our American Founding Fathers"

Bring it on and lets win the culture war.

[Stephanie]

1. I would like public Golden Rule displays

But Republicans would oppose that, for sure.

[Fight_n_back]

4. It is also instructive

to look at the Founding Father's views on abortion. It was the most practiced form of birth controlo at the time yet entirely legal.

http://www.cbctrust.com/abortion.html#61

United States

Until the mid-19th century, first trimester abortions were legal in the United States under common law. By 1900, abortion was prohibited by law throughout the U.S. unless two or more physicians agreed that the procedure was necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant women.172

In the 1960’s, complications from illegal abortions accounted for almost 20% of all pregnancy-related admissions to municipal hospitals in New York and California.173 By the late 1960’s, state legislatures began to reconsider the legalization of abortion in response to changes in public opinion and calls from national medical, legal, religious, and social welfare organizations. By 1973, 17 states had liberalized their abortion laws.

[paineinthearse]

2. I fully support your call for public instruction

As long as it is objective and non-biased.

[Lights_Out]

3. Why progressives should truly allow this...

I don't care about these ten commandments in front of public offices because I don't care about religion. As long as you are shoving this religious-political crap down my throat, then I could truly care less for what you put outside of your public area, especially if no one says anything about it until they see something about it in the mainstream media.

[ewagner]

5. Thanks for the post

I've saved it to hard drive.

I always need ammunition in my arguments.

I will use these arguments frequently.

[BringEmOn]

6. How about a Sermon on the Mount display?

That would drive the modern day Pharisees crazy.

The Beatitudes

1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

[Fight_n_back]

7. or maybe this

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-02.htm

...
MAN #1:
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
GREGORY:
Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
MR. CHEEKY:
See? If you hadn't been going on, we'd have heard that, Big Nose.
JESUS:
How blest are those who...
MR. BIG NOSE:
Hey. Say that once more; I'll smash your bloody face in.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ohh.
MR. CHEEKY:
Better keep listening. Might be a bit about 'Blessed are the big noses.'
BRIAN:
Oh, lay off him.
MR. CHEEKY:
Oh, you're not so bad yourself, Conkface. Where are you two from? Nose City?
MR. BIG NOSE:
One more time, mate; I'll take you to the fuckin' cleaners!
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Language!
JESUS:
...hunger and thirst to see...
MRS. BIG NOSE:
And don't pick your nose.
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MR. BIG NOSE:
I wasn't going to pick my nose. I was going to thump him!
MAN #2:
You hear that? Blessed are the Greek.
GREGORY:
The Greek?
MAN #2:
Mmm. Well, apparently, he's going to inherit the earth.
...

[Tux]

8. Good quotes

Most people don't know that the Founders were Deists. As for the 10 Commandments, leave them out of gov sites. We don't need them since they will only divide the nation more. If anyone wants religious dogma up on a plague, let's go with this:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

[Fight_n_back]

9. I respectfully disagree about the "division thing"

We need to argue for the "American-ness" of our Constitution. The Ten Commandements do not detract from it or enhance it. They just show that now humans make their own laws rather than waiting for Godot to burn another bush.

[TWiley]

10. Religious people cannot be reasoned with.

I do love your argument, but this is the flaw. Church people are not reasonable, and cannot be reasoned with. They are trained to "accept everything by faith alone" which means "no proof is necessary".

Furthermore, it only takes one crackpot to get up behind a pulpit to tell a few lies in the name of gawd, and PRESTO! Church radio from coast to coast is abuz with their endorsement. As a group, they are completely void of any critical thinking skills.

They would merely point to the "fact" (if we took your strategy) that the 10 Commandments have always been in public places. This would make them much much harder to remove in the future.

Most republican churches no longer have sunday schools. They have seminars on "constitutional law"

[IrateCitizen]

11. Why do you hate America? (nt)

[DinahMoeHum]

12. As long as we can also display swastikas, pentagrams, crescent

moons and the like, I have no problem with this program. Hey, they too are religious symbols, right?

And as for anyone who raises a fuss over my suggestion, all I can say is: then he/she is a fucking phony - what they really want are exclusive Judeo-Xtian displays and I will not go along with such a piss-ass thing.


Bumpersticker suggestion: Be secure enough in your faith that you not impose it on me.


:evilfrown: