is this legal -- can help wanted ads ask for certain religous backgrounds?

[nashville_brook]

Director of Graphic Design/Project Manager
Christian graphic designer with experience in photography, Quark and Photoshop. Prefer experience in postal requirements, Illustrator and Macro Media Dream Weaver webpage design. Excellent benefits. Salary negotiable. Send résumé, references and salary requirements to Rader Walker, Nashville Rescue Mission, 639 Lafayette Street, Nashville, TN 37203, fax [phone] or e-mail rwalker@nashvillerescue
mission.org.

[tx_dem41]

1. I don't believe so. Any lawyer want to weigh in? n/t

[donco6]

2. I think you can, if it's assoc. with a church.

This one sounds like it is.

[gardenista]

5. Nope, churches are not excepted. illegal. nt

[donco6]

9. I suppose I could be wrong.

But it seems a church hiring a new preacher would have the prerogative to ask him about his religion.

Maybe it's just me.

[gardenista]

11. It would be unusual for a person meeting the job qualifications

of a preacher to not be a preacher. Not so with graphic design. It's self-selecting with regard to preachers, but not with other trades.

[gardenista]

20. See the post on Title VII below. nt

[Sanity Claws]

3. That is illegal!!

Report the ad to the nearest EEOC. Discrimination on the basis of religion is prohibited by Title VII.

[FreedomAngel82]

4. I'm not sure

It doesn't say much just that it's a Christian business. Nothing wrong with having that. It's better then false advertising and not hiring someone because they don't believe what they believe. I'd rather be told straight up. If it's a private business I don't think it's illegal because they can set their standards however they like I think. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. It might be though. Just what I think.

[kwolf68]

6. Yes

If the job requires a background in a particular religion then I'd say this is OK.

[johnaries]

7. It's a religious not-for-profit. So, it is legal.

http://www.nashvillerescuemission.org/index-2.html

[gardenista]

19. No, it is not legal. It is illegal, unless they are hiring a minister. nt

[johnaries]

61. Sorry, but it is as of Feb 2004:

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/063302.htm?terms=religious+discrimination

February 06, 2004
Religious Discrimination with Federal Funds: OK!
The House of Representatives has decided that even when a person's employment is paid for by federal funds, if those funds are being funneled through a religious organization then that group can discriminate on the basis of religion and religious belief. Thus, the people getting designated government services through a religious group wouldn't have the right to work for that group because of religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, or just about any other reason.

[Bill McBlueState]

8. it's a religious group

It's a religious group, so they can discriminate. Religious groups are not held to the same civil rights standards as the rest of society. Unfortunately we still have to make exceptions for the less-enlightened among us.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. It's not discriminatory

Why should a particular religious group be forced to hire someone not of its faith? That's a particularly heinous government intrusion.

Freedom of religion works both ways - we don't get it forced down our throats, and we don't force our beliefs down their throats - when it comes to employment.

[Bill McBlueState]

13. here's the parallel

White people hire black people, gay people hire straight people, why do Christians get to hire only Christians?

To me it looks like an exemption for religion. A legal one, but a special exemption nonetheless.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. So?

You're overlooking one hugely significant legal issue: the matter of church and state. That takes it out of the parallels you just tried to draw.

The First Amendment is a wild and dangerous Amendment, and lends itself to results that, at first blush, seem unfair, but, when scrutinized carefully, show us that that separation must, in fact, be complete or else we end up living in Ratface Bush's Amerika.

Race and gender are brought under Constitutional coverage via due process and equal protection - different Amendments.

[gardenista]

17. It *is* discriminatory, and it violates Title VII

There is no exemption for churches, other than for ministers.

[me b zola]

12. Can you imagine if it were the 'other' way around??

Wanted: Athiest/securlist graphic designer....

In hiring practices in the real (secular) world, you cannot ask if someone is married or has children, because of the discrimination factor in hiring. I would think the same would apply to religion.

If the 'Rescue Mission' has church statis and all of the privilages that go with it, I think that they can discriminate. However, this points out just one of the many reasons that 'faith based initiatives' are unconstitutional. Our tax $$ cannot go to organizations that have the legal right to discriminate.

[gardenista]

16. That's right. And they do not. See my post on Title VII below. nt

[nashville_brook]

23. it jumped out at me -- i don't know the answer, but it feels skeevey

you know -- i was insulted when i read it. and how would you prove your background? and what about Catholics... can they apply?

the mission does good work here, but how would a xtian background make one graphic designer better than another for the job? you don't have to be xtian to be committed to helping the homeless.

[gardenista]

15. Here's the law

http://www.wfalaw.com/article.jsp?practArea=12&articleIndex=0

Title VII Background

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 forbids most employers from discriminating against their employees and job applicants on the basis of:

* race,
* sex,
* religion,
* color, and
* national origin.

Employees or applicants whose rights under Title VII are violated may file complaints with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and may sometimes file civil lawsuits against the offending employers. Violators may be ordered to hire or promote successful plaintiffs or to award them front pay, back pay, or attorney fees.

Bona Fide Occupational Qualification Exception

Although Title VII is far-reaching, it does have several exceptions applicable to churches hiring ministers or clergy members. One exception, built into the statute, is the bona fide occupational requirement exception. Under this exception, employers may discriminate on the basis of a prohibited category where that category is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the employer's business. Under this exception, for example, the Catholic Church may exclude women or Protestants from consideration as priests without violating Title VII.

**********************
This exemption does not apply to graphic artists, or janitors, or receptionists.

[nashville_brook]

24. wow -- thanks for the clarification. with all the christo-fascist news

lately, this felt like "just one more brick in the wall." like, what next? Christian shoppers only allowed to buy groceries at Kroger? it just feels like the walls are closing in lately.

[gardenista]

25. You're welcome. So far, they haven't been able to destroy things like

Title VII, but we must be vigilant.

[DrRang]

31. Book publishers ask for statement of belief

I can't verify this personally because I've never submitted anything to a "Christian" publishing house, but trusted sources have said that lots of these places require that an author sign a statement of beliefs that the publisher finds acceptable before they'll print anything.

[ikojo]

18. Under Bush's "faith" based initiatives it is OK for churches to

discriminate based upon sexual orientation so I assume it's OK to say they will hire only Christians. This used to be the norm back in the 40s and 50s.

[gardenista]

21. You mean discriminate in services, or not hire based on sexual orientation

It's illegal.

[ikojo]

32. It is OK for churches to discriminate based upon

sexual orientation if it is contradictory to their religious teachings. This is even if they receive government funds.

Here's something from the NYC ACLU site on religious discrimination by the Salvation Army...

http://www.nyclu.org/salvation_army_services_ltr_011604.html

NYCLU Calls For Investigation Of Faith-Based Discrimination In Salvation Army Social Services

snip

The Salvation Army has recently begun to require all New York City employees, and prospective job applicants, to identify their present church affiliation and minister’s name as well as all other churches attended in the previous decade. Moreover, recently developed job descriptions and new job application forms, appear to require that employees “preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ” and to thereby profess their belief in Christianity. The Salvation Army claims an exemption from anti-discrimination laws because it is a church.

The NYCLU argues that when The Salvation Army provides child welfare and other social services with government funding in partnership with New York City and New York State, it cannot engage in religious discrimination either in the provision of such services or in the hiring of employees to provide those services. The Salvation Army receives over $89 million in government funds.

[gardenista]

35. You mean in services or hiring?

And it would be interesting to see them *really* try to discriminate in the Catholic Church, for example. Don't get me wrong, I identify as a lifelong (fallen) Catholic.

[ikojo]

37. I mean in hiring. From what I understand, if it is against

the tenets of the faith to hire a gay or lesbian person then the "faith" based organization can refuse to hire someone based upon that criteria alone.

[gardenista]

39. You are probably right.

And I suppose that it could be cause for dismissal, as well.

[ISUGRADIA]

66. In most states one can discriminate based on sexual orientation

and there's no legal recourse.

[Cleita]

22. If an ad is for a church, I guess it should be okay to ask if the

applicant be a member of that domination. It would seem though that they would best advertise on their church bulletin. Anything else I think is discrimination.

[gardenista]

27. No, it is NOT ok, it it completely illegal, and NOT ok.

And if it ever starts to be OK, we should fight tooth and nail.

Furthermore, non-profits, including churches, are obligated to follow certain rules in advertising their job openings.

It IS ok to have certain requirements in terms of knowledge, experience, and skills, but NOT religious background, race, or sex, with the exception of those bona fide ministerial exceptions in Title VII.

[Cleita]

30. I agree with you, but I did say that if they want members of

their own denomination, then they shouldn't advertise in a secular newspaper. I think the above ad was really out of line.

[gardenista]

34. I understand. But although I'm not sure about this, they may be obligated

to advertise to a larger group. That one I don't know as well.

But because they are tax exempt, I believe they have specific obligations to advertise in the local newspaper of record.

Sorry to have been so vehement, I just get worried when I think that folks are capitulating to the fundy culture that is trying to overtake our country.

[Cleita]

47. Well, as a former Catholic, I can vouch that if a non-Catholic

were to be hired as a secretary to the parish, it would be kind of daunting for her to learn protocols involved, like a matter of addressing the clergy by their rank and the religious like nuns. Also many of the words used to describe many objects and rituals are never used outside of Catholic circles and she would need to learn this. A Catholic though who was raised with this knowledge would be better able to do the job. I imagine this could be the same for other denominations.

[gardenista]

50. Agreed that some of this is self-selecting, esp. for admin jobs where

certain protocols need to be followed. Furthermore, some of these positions will impose a selection process by virtue of the skill set required to qualify. However, in this case, they're advertising for a graphic artist.

Also, I worked for a church that was not my denomination, in a trade which was not directly related to putting together services and ceremonies. The church I worked for provided training so that we understood protocol, how to address the Bishop, etc. It doesn't take long to pick it up. We were not required to attend services, but I often did, and enjoyed it. Also became a big fan of the Bishop, who told wonderful jokes, and seemed to enjoy teasing me. (In a nice way.)

What I am trying to say is that churches can benefit from hiring outside of their faith, and so can the employees, as long as everyone respects each other.

[nashville_brook]

26. the more i think about it, the more i want to apply

i worked for a Christian music magazine. i could prolly get an interview just based on that. it would be interesting to see how seriously they want the "Christian" part filled.

[gardenista]

28. Call the ACLU and let them know you're applying. They might be intersted

in the outcome.

[nashville_brook]

29. ah, a little project... this could be fun

i think our person is Hedy Weinberg?

i really hope it's a misfortunate choice of words... it seems like the Tennessean should have caught it. they might have placed the ad via a do-it-yourself web app. at any rate, it gives me solace knowing that if i really really needed THAT job, they couldn't discriminate b/c of my religion or lack thereof.

[gardenista]

44. If you're qualified, you should go for it. nt

[TalkingDog]

33. Here's one better for you.

This was listed in the local paper recently. Given the requirements, I don't think many people are qualified.

Mooresville church is currently seeking a part time Administrative Assistant. Applicants must possess a Christ-like demeanor, work well with others, proficient with all Microsoft Office soft-ware, communicate well, be well organized and able to coordinate multiple tasks. For more information, or to apply, please call 704-677-3814

[gardenista]

36. Hmmmm.... that's an interesting one.

"Christ-like demeanor" is not equal to Christian. Vy interesting.

Maybe this is part of a movement to challenge Title VII. Wouldn't surprise me.

[lala_rawraw]

38. No, it is not legal... send to ACLU

and make sure to respond to this person... unless this is a church or religious establishment.

[gardenista]

40. Even if it is a church or religious establishment, it is illegal. nt

[lala_rawraw]

41. hold up, am writing them as

a journalist on this... let's see what happens:D

[gardenista]

43. waha!

I am really beginning to wonder if this is intentional, to see if they can challenge Title VII.

[lala_rawraw]

42. Okay, this is what I sent...

To Whom It May Concern:

I am currently working on an article about various types of organizations and/or companies who are using religious backgrounds as part of the employment screening process. Your organization has come to my attention.

You recently listed a job opening for a graphic designer, description listed below for your reference. Can you please explain why a religious background would be required for employment with your organization? I would be very interested in your comments. Please kindly include which statute under the law you are using to warrant this.

Your recently posted Job Description:
Director of Graphic Design/Project Manager
Christian graphic designer with experience in photography, Quark and Photoshop. Prefer experience in postal requirements, Illustrator and Macro Media Dream Weaver webpage design. Excellent benefits. Salary negotiable. Send résumé, references and salary requirements to Rader Walker, Nashville Rescue Mission, 639 Lafayette Street, Nashville, TN 37203, fax [phone] or e-mail rwalker@nashvillerescue
mission.org.

Thank you,
Larisa

--
Larisa Alexandrovna
Deputy Managing Editor - News
Raw Story - Raw Story Media
http://www.rawstory.com

[gardenista]

45. Well, that's going to light a fire in the undies of the person who

wrote the ad.

Let us know what comes of it.

[lala_rawraw]

46. Yep and sent to ACLU person

who has specialty in this area... oops, should remove at least some of my info in the public here, lmao... dope-me

[nashville_brook]

51. wow, thanks lala!

you must be the busiest woman in journalism! thanks for taking time to do this.

[Toots]

48. If christian is used as an adjective and not a noun

You know as in Christian Art Created. Otherwise I don't think anyone can discriminate based on religion.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Colleges affiliated with conservative churches ask applicants for

teaching posts to sign a "statement of belief." No specific denomination is requested, but if you believe in science or don't believe that all non-Christians are going to hell, the statement makes it clear that you would be uncomfortable in that environment.

[MaryBear]

52. This is similar to an ad I saw in the Sacramento Bee

stating something like "Gay owned and staffed coffee house" seeks a barista (sp?). Is this informative for the applicant, or is it saying only gays work there.

[Bridget Burke]

54. It might be warning homophobes to back off.

And encouraging Gays to apply--without having to "hide."

[MaryBear]

65. Probably, but

I know a gay friendly straight who would apply, except it implies gays are wanted. Otherwise it would say "mostly gay staff" or some such.

[CornField]

53. Bush's Faith-Based Initiative allows such groups to discriminate in hiring

Supposedly, they have to *serve* anyone who comes knocking. When hiring, however, they can dictate whatever they like (heterosexual, white, male, christian, whatever)

That's why so many (including myself) were so angry about the Faith-Based Initiative. It was billed as "leveling the playing field" between faith-based and secular groups. What it actually accomplished, however, was providing the faith-based groups an unfair advantage. Secular groups are still required to follow the law. Faith-Based groups are exempt from the law in several circumstances.

Now, if you'd like to join me in a brief tinfoil hat moment: The neocons seek to dismantle the New Deal. When the safety net has been removed and so many Americans are hurting, where will they go for help? Now, which organization was it that provided the most (and some would argue the most effective) free, positive political advertising for the neocons?

Things that make you go "hmmmmm"

[Bridget Burke]

56. A "Rescue Mission" might well get Federal funds....

Which is yet another reason this is repulsive.

[Bridget Burke]

57. A "Rescue Mission" might well get Federal funds....

Which is yet another reason this is repulsive.

[Walt Starr]

55. While not illegal for a church group to do this, it might be illegal

if they receive faith based funding. Look into it because they could lose that federal religio-graft-welfare because of that one help wnated ad.

[CornField]

58. They have a book which outlines accepted discrimination

(RW site)
http://www.cpjustice.org/stories/storyReader$1243

Following an executive summary, the first chapter introduces the faith-based initiative and the controversy that has arisen over religious staffing. Chapters Two and Three discuss in detail the legislation and constitutional interpretations that affect religious staffing by non-government organizations. Chapter Four looks particularly at the circumstances of federal funds passing through state and local governments.

Chapter Five offers policy justifications for religious staffing rights, and Chapter Six offers recommendations and precautions for both government officials and faith-based organizations. The last chapter is not the end of the book, however, for there are nine appendices at the end that summarize laws and executive decisions that have been made in this area over the last decade.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

59. I remember all the hoopla over this in 2003

If my memory is correct they are within their rights if they are a privately funded faith based organization. If they receive any government funding they are not.

Their website says they are privately funded.

http://www.nashvillerescuemission.org/vision.htm
ll of the Nashville Rescue Mission's services are free of charge, therefore the Mission has relied solely on personal contributions and support from local churches and businesses to run its ministry from the very first offering collected in 1953 by Dr. Charles Fuller. While other organizations may require payment for a safe night's rest, the Mission simply asks the men for an hour of their time to attend evening chapel service. Therefore, the Mission subsists almost entirely from donated food and materials and is 100% funded by donations, 78% of which comes from individual donors, like you! Thank you for making it possible to feed, clothe and care for the least, last and lost of Middle Tennessese (sic).

[charlottelouise]

60. Possibly it is legal

As several other posters have noted, this particular advertisement brings up the issue of BFOQ, or bona fide occupational qualification.

A BFOQ, briefly, is a legal basis for taking into account, in employment decisions, an otherwise impermissible factor. A BFOQ may be age, gender, national origin, or religion (race / color does not qualify). The concept of BFOQ dates back to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Uniform Guidelines on Employee Selection Procedures (1978), plus innumerable court cases since then (I'd be happy to find and post specific citations if anyone is interested).

In general, BFOQ's normally fall into several categories, although most cases end up being decided on a case-by-case basis (that is, on the facts of the particular case). Note that neither stereotypes nor perceived customer preferences ("Our customers don't like _____). are valid BFOQ's. The general categories:

1. Public safety - if an employer can establish that individuals over a certain age cannot safely perform the job duties of, say, a firefighter.

2. Personal service - an employer may require that a nursing assistant bathing female patients also be female (note that this exemption does not hold, however, in the case of a licensed professional such as a an RN or physician).

3. Authenticity -- this would be in the case of an actor, for example, who might need to be of a particular gender.

4. Religion -- this is the messy one. Legally, it's fairly clear that positions such as a minister or priest fall into this category, as do teachers and professors at religiously-affiliated schools, colleges and universities. It's a bit more ambiguous when the position does not involve direct religious instruction.

In this particular case, it's not clear, really, whether or not religion is a BFOQ. Legally, if challenged, the employer must be able to establish that religion is an actual qualification for the job, and that having an employee of a specific religion is necessary to the normal operation of the employer’s business. The argument can be made that the position involves the design of materials promoting the activities of a religiously-based institution, but it is also possible to argue that the position does not involve content decisions. You'd really need to see a full job description to make that call, and even then, it could go either way.

[johnaries]

62. OK, as of Feb 2004 it IS legal! About.com:

February 06, 2004
Religious Discrimination with Federal Funds: OK!
The House of Representatives has decided that even when a person's employment is paid for by federal funds, if those funds are being funneled through a religious organization then that group can discriminate on the basis of religion and religious belief. Thus, the people getting designated government services through a religious group wouldn't have the right to work for that group because of religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, or just about any other reason.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/063302.htm?terms=discrimination+religious

[slackmaster]

63. Looks like they want someone with experience doing Christian graphics

I don't see a problem with it.

:dunce:

[cap]

64. I see a lot of laid off people getting screwed...

for instance, you designed graphics for social services for the state of X; you get laid off due to privatization of social services. The logical place to get hired is the contracting company which is now faith based. If you arent a member of that faith or if you are gay, you could have a problem and could not work at the same job that you did before.

Maybe it's legal; but, it's not moral.