How deep is our hole?

[Protagoras]

We have 2 camps battling out there...on one side we have the absolute idealists, who are sure with enough individual passion and some kicking and screaming the world is suddenly going to wake up, and the sun will rise!

On the other hand, we have the nihilists who are pretty sure that we've now totally screwed the pooch and we might as well put bubble wrap around the house and wait for the mad max hordes or armageddon to arrive.

Somewhere in between is usually the truth. And that's what I'd like to kick around some here. I love idealism...I mean...who doesn't? On the other hand, I've developed a strong realist streak that tends to push me toward nihilism if I'm not careful. So I'd like to set out some ideas about the size of the hole we are actually in, and do the best to elicit some balanced responses about how long it's going to take us to dig out.

Here are my crudest and most current thoughts.

1. We have lost a generation (in the liberal/human rights/economic health sense). The next 20 years are going to be lost to us regardless of what we do. The damage is severe to the point where we MUST have a fall. A big big big fall imho. And then we'll have to rebuild from some veritable ashes.

I base this on several perceptions.

- Debt. We simply owe too much to pull out. Our economy is broke and will require an amazingly painful crisis to stop the slide and then force the return to fiscal sanity. Bush has another 3 years to continue the damage...and lets face it...nothing we've got is going to stop him and his neocon buddies before 08...even if we win in 06. I also can't help but feel that some of the other countries what hold much of our debt have a MUCH longer view of things than we have...and they are out for a BIG win against us. China doesn't want to be our debt holder...they want Empire and World control every bit as much as the Neocons do...and they have a more patient approach to it.

- Education: Our kids aren't as bad as we sometimes think they are, but they are effectively innoculated to a lot of cultural and moral awareness (in a progressive sense) that might cause them to rise up in an EFFECTIVE way any time soon. We may be 10-20 years away from a group of movers and shakers who will be ready to take the reigns of power and use them in a dramatically different way. We'll have to end the hold of ADHD inducing MTV remixes and 20 year outdated textbooks being taught by underpaid and burnt out teachers.

- Information and the Media: Our current system is broke. So broke it's going to take a dramatic shift..the destruction of the MSM and an adoption of the internet or alternative media to a much larger degree. We must overcome not only the MSM...but also the echo chamber trap of the Internet. Do we have the future answer to this now? I wonder.

- Corporatism: Anti Globalism, NAFT/CAFTA, Multinational abuse, etc, is still a fairly young cause. Think of other major response movements. Civil rights, sufferage, anti-vietnam, etc...these all took a long time to fully materialize. Europe is doing a much better job atm of engaging in large scale opposition (at the same time it's also beating our pants in new Corporate power...hmmm). The end of Corporate dominance is going to take a lot to achieve...and then it's going to take a lot to rebuild from. I'm least optimistic about this because I think we're seeing world government change...from nation state to multination corporate control and this is so big and powerful I'm still at a loss to see how one actually does end it...I think the answer might be in the 3rd world...

- Fuel/oil: We have a looming crisis the likes of which no one since the great depression has seen. We are literally going to run out of oil in the near future. Sure there is some in the ground. But with India and China coming online in the industrial and consumer world...the competition for this limited resource is THE issue for the next 10 years...the US is going to find millions of abandoned cars in the not so distant future...and I don't think the average Joe has a fraction of a clue about how HUGE the ripples are going to be from the Filling station to mechanics to manufacturing to electricity and polyster products...it's going to be so crazy that most Americans can't dream of it. We're going to have to invent and change our way thru this crisis and the Corporate short term greed model is holding us way way way back right now. how long is it going to take us to invent the solution and impliment it? Hybrids that raise effiency 10mpg are only a drop in the bucket of the necessary solution.

- Culture: We are a nation divided against itself. This is partly a historic cycle, but also partly a new (in intensity) level of hostility for this country. We're almost to civil war levels of division here now between the left and the right...how long does it take for something like this to first play itself out...then heal? If we use the Civil war as a model...at least the rest of our lifetime. Moreover, we're going to see the pull and luster of American culture dim and diminish around the world (already happening)...ala Rifkin's European Dream...how will we attract the best and the brightest to our aid when we're not the place people want to be and we don't make the things people want to buy?

Damn that doesn't sound like there is much hope. But...and this is a BIG ONE...it's all about our timeline. We lose ALL battles when we engage in hysterics. And Hysterics most often come about when we are looking for short term solutions to long term answers. At the same time we have a pretty huge issue if we say "No Hope In Our Lifetime"...

Where is the balance? How do we plan out 20 years, while staying motivated day to day? I'm not sure I know the answer, but I'm more and more sure that I can't sustain my energy in a cycle of hope and disappointment that revolves around BEATING THEM IN THE NEXT Month/Year/Election. I've got to develop a longer view...and somehow make that view meaningful to my so that I stay motivated and also make the MOST effective plans.

That way, imho, lies real victory. It's a big hole...and we're going to have to plan a long long effort to dig out of it. How do we "organize" such an effort and keep people's eyes on the goal when it's not immediate and right in front of them?

Happily accepting thoughts on the situation.

[leveymg]

1. Please, keep on posting! Recommended!

:applause:

[benburch]

2. Sex thread. Locking.

:evilgrin:

[Protagoras]

3. That actually made me blink

Need more coffee before playing in Du's GD I guess :D

[benburch]

10. Hope it made you laugh!

That was the goal, after all.

[snowbear]

35. lol !!!

:rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray:

[Blue_In_AK]

50. Here's what popped into my mind...

How deep is our hole
How deep is our hole
I really need to learn
'Cause we're living in a world of fools
Breaking us down
When they all should let us be
We belong to you and me



Okay, I'm going back to work now. Sorry.

[Buns_of_Fire]

51. That was the first thing that *I* thought of, too! Really!

...and now I've got the "Saturday Night Fever" soundtrack playing over and over and over and over in my head. :banghead:

[Blue_In_AK]

52. Somebody over in the lounge

has Brothers Gibb stuck in their heads, too, I just read. Is it something in the air??

[patricia92243]

4. I don't have any answers. I'm old and the next generation will have to

handle it. But I have no idea how they will go about it. Sorry to not be any help.

[Protagoras]

9. I can understand the feeling, but

I would hope that at the least we could help them draw a roadmap for getting where they need to go. We may not all see the end of the battle, but I am not convinced that should stop us from engaging in the planning of it.

[Solly Mack]

5. Thank you.

[Mich Otter]

6. How we win...

If you remember the Vietnam War, the North Vietnamese lost a lot of battles. They could not win when they stood head to head with the power of the American forces. But non-the-less, over time, they persevered by keeping the battles going. Their guerrilla tactics won out in the end.
Over time, things will improve in America. I just hope enough people wake up so we don't have to go through a time period of a return of religious inspired "Dark Ages" or a time of Corporate controlling Fascism.

[AndyTiedye]

8. That Is The Really Scary Thing About Theocracy

When has a popular movement ever succeeded in removing a theocracy?

The theocracy in Salem went on unabated until it challenged the
authority of the English crown by accusing the royal governor's
wife of witchcraft. The governor put a stop to it then.

The Taliban theocracy in Afghanistan seems to be coming back despite
the efforts of or military.

The theocracies of the Dark Ages went on for a thousand years,
and seven increasingly disasterous Crusades. Fortunately, kings
and bishops were expected to lead their troops into battle in
those days, and the battles were going increasingly badly for them,
so they were eventually rid of their "religious wrong" that way.

[roseBudd]

11. But today's theocracy is up against people who have been fornicating..

since high school. The recreational sex demographic is not only going to be unwilling to give up the birth control and porn, when they come for our HBO there will be a rebellion.

[AndyTiedye]

47. They Won't Come for Our HBO. HBO Will Bend to their Wishes

Big media has already thrown in its lot with the theocracy.
Most people even on DU are in denial about this, but it is obvious
from what they cover and what they chose not to cover. Viacom was
wavering, but they were brought into line last year. They made an
example of Dan Rather, and now the broadcast media is totally on board.

A theocracy would actually make life easier for the big players,
no more having to program for all these niche markets, when everybody
is forced to look, think, believe, and act the same.
We'll get endless remakes of "The Passion of the Christ" :puke:
and they'll tell us in church how much we all liked it, and it will
get great ratings. "In other news, Diebold Corp. made a tender offer
for all outstanding shares in Nielsen Co." (OK, that hasn't happened yet).

[carpetbagger]

25. Theocratic overthrow is usually under a different name.

The Russian Revolution, the Latin American revolt against the Spanish empire, the French Revolution, countless nationalist movements in Europe, and our own revolution were in fact overthrows of theocracy to one degree or another.

Remember, we're a long ways away from theocracy. What we actually have is politicians who blabber about religion. The only policy successes they've had are some gay marriage bans on state levels and a few things done under cover of beaurocratic darkness. An inkling of what's ahead can be seen in the Schiavo circus. The overthrow of Roe v. Wade would be a pyrrhic victory, largely because of what the radicals would push for afterwards.

America is ready for the overturning of Roe (not that they support it, just that there wouldn't be a massive backlash). They are not ready for the overturning of Griswold, and that is the path through which Roe is under threat. (Griswold v. Connecticut established the right to privacy in sexual relations, specifically contraception, as an unenumerated but fundamental right). It is when these rights come under threat that people will drop religious politics like a hot potato(e).

Corporate domination will take a much greater amount of damage to wake people up. I don't think we're talking about 1929 again, but I think we've seen the chickens come to roost as a result of now having an electorate that has never lacked a safety net.

[AndyTiedye]

48. Those Were Essentially Secular Monarchies

The Russian Revolution, the Latin American revolt against the Spanish empire, the French Revolution, countless nationalist movements in Europe, and our own revolution were in fact overthrows of theocracy to one degree or another.

The tsars in Russia and the French monarchs may have claimed
"divine right of kings", but they were essentially secular rulers.
The church in France was under the control of the Pope in Rome,
not the king. The French did not throw off Catholicism during or
after the French Revolution, and remain mostly Catholic to this day.
Mexico also remained overwhelmingly Catholic after its revolution,
and Russia stayed mostly Russian Orthodox AFAIK.
In the American Revolution, religion was not even mentioned among
the grievances that were put forth.

[Taxloss]

42. England's brief theocracy under Cromwell didn't last long -

there were other factors at play, but popular feeling certainly contributed to the Restoration.

[tavalon]

15. In your last sentence, you said,

"I just hope enough people wake up so we don't have to go through a time period of a return of religious inspired "Dark Ages" or a time of Corporate controlling Fascism."

I'm still hoping on the first one you mentioned but we are there on numero dos, baby.

[AuntiBush]

27. We're looming near 1, and possibly already in the other

"a return of religious inspired "Dark Ages" or a time of Corporate controlling Fascism..."

Well, I'd say the latter is already here. How do you think they stole 2 elections and gained masses of the first mentioned. And that 1st wing-nut group is growing thanks to tax-exempt, taxpapers-gov't fundings.

September: If they really start closing down those bases, well... shew. Speechless still on that one.

[PATRICK]

7. Erasmus

would have found a home here. In his day of the new media(printing press) he was right there with controversial accessible printing of Scripture for the masses, mixing with the powers and thinkers of the Renaissance.

Then the wars of religion. Suddenly trying to pick the right side and thinking was not only not easy but an ongoing disaster. From his attempts at orthodoxy against Luther he stumbled into heresy(by saying virtue learned, earned and progressive as a quantitative model of grace). His "In Praise of Folly" gave way to his building up the phrase "Soldier of Christ", which in retrospect was either not clever enough tor too clever by far.

Like most voices of reason he retired to meek silence behind what he thought best, as unreformed as it was, the RC's. Others(like scientists) presumably found local niches within pockets of the Reformation. reason was an archipelago of the retreatants, like Montaigne, watching the optimism of mind lose its world.

Batten down the fanaticism. Passion yes. There is a difference. Loyalties, coalitions yes. War, no. The RW lives on the strife it sows, whether in barrier ghetto or chat room. In anarchy, turf wars for uprooted egos create yet another battleground for suckers.

Get the feelings out. Then get the personal feelings out of the way. No time for anarchy or time to waste on policing. I find it still quite possible that subtle enemies have hopped in here to sow whatever wedge discord they can. But it does not matter. It would only be magnification of our unaffordable vices. It should in fact make us more aware.

[Protagoras]

13. Not sure what you mean by subtle

enemies. If you mean trolls or freeps trying to fish for straw men arguments...well yeah that's a part of online life. In fact I'm sure the DC Neocon thinktanks have people dedicated and paid to do it these days. Sick and sad.

But I appreciate the historical perspective, though it is also a bit disheartening given the length of time in our past that people have been willing to both sit in the mud and eat shit.

On the other hand, while we've had some damn dark times in our past (and now with Bushco)...we've also had some pretty amazing triumphs of human spirit. But most of those triumphs have come at the end of long *emphapsis LONG* struggles.

And that's what we have to be willing to focus on. How do we prepare our troops for long slow struggles as opposed to quick, flashy, instant gratification? And I'm not talking about DLC pandering for time. I'm talking about honest, strongly positioned, and sustained effort to CLEARLY defend and reclaim progressive positions?

Will it take a philosopher or visionary? or just a real solid and publically appealing game plan? And how do we sell a decade+ long plan to a culture that's become spood fed on instant gratification?

[Zorbuddha]

12. Bush has proven...

you can't dig your way out of a hole. First rule when you find you've dug yourself into a hole: STOP DIGGING.

[BillyDoc]

14. Protagorus, you are on to something important

I have been amazed at how "progressives" are like ants running around after their hill has been kicked. Lots of energy and lots of passion, and very little effect. Similarly, someone once described a democratic executive committee meeting as a “circular firing squad.” It was a good description!

But back to the problems you pose, and I think you did an excellent job of portraying a good number of them . . . unfortunately I can think of a few more rather serious issues . . . like the nasty effects of our impending climate change, and the rather obvious fact that actual elections are now a thing of the past.

I think that the key is to narrow the analysis to root issues and address them in a concerted fashion. Find the weak point, as any military commander would say, and attack there. In our instant case there is one glaring weak point and it is this: almost all of our current problems are the direct result of years of political bribery. Let me give a little history to illustrate my point.

In the early part of the last century Henry Ford got into trouble by trying to be a nice guy. He wanted to use corporate profits that he viewed as excessive to raise worker salaries and reduce the price of his company’s automobiles. His stockholders objected, however, and took him to court (Dodge v. Ford, 1919). They wanted that money for themselves. The judge ruled that the whole purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth, and if Ford “wanted to pursue a (charitable end) he should do it with his own money, not with other people’s.”

The principle forged into law by Dodge v. Ford continues today to force corporate management to maximize stockholder profits. The law has been modified slightly since 1980 to allow for a slightly more “social” flavor, but the “fiduciary responsibility” of corporate management this principle established remains firmly directed towards maximal profits for the stockholders. CEOs are therefore required to have a clear and “reasonable expectation of profit” when they spend stockholder money.

The requirement that a “reasonable expectation of profit” be present applies to corporate political campaign contributions just like any other expenditure. In 2002 contributions to politicians exceeded $1.2 billion dollars. Some examples will illustrate the practical effect of this money.

In 2002 over $95 million was contributed by the health care industry to our politicians. Where was the “reasonable expectation of profit” that the health care industry was investing in to come from? Politicians have nothing but their legislation to offer in return for this money, and common sense tells us that promoting legislation that would reduce profits — wasn’t really the idea. Indeed, any politician receiving a portion of the health care industry’s $95 million giveaway could be expected to irritate his “benefactors” mightily if his legislation were to, say, actually reduce health care costs — and thus industry profits. Common sense also tells us that any such congressman would be immediately “cut off” from his health care corporate largess, and would last about as long in his job as any faint hint of real morality currently does in congress.

Other examples of the influence of corporate “political contributions” on legislation abound. The cumulative cost of this practice to the public is immense, but we pay the price of this practice with far more than mere money.

The FDA has tried repeatedly to ban the use of antibiotics to fatten meat animals, but has been overruled by congress each time. It is well established that antibiotics used in animal feed have two primary effects: they cause meat animals to fatten more with less food, and they breed antibiotic resistant bacteria. The pharmaceutical industry sells 70% of its antibiotics for meat production, and gives a pile of money to congress each year to protect that market. Protect it primarily from the FDA, which has been trying to protect us from exactly this sort of practice. People die because of antibiotic resistant bacteria. And the patents on the antibiotics used to fatten meat animals run out at about the same time feeding these antibiotics to animals renders them useless — thus making newer, more costly, and more esoteric antibiotics necessary. And also necessitating new patents and much higher profits for the pharmaceutical industry.

I think that the corporate practice of making large contributions to politicians has a more accurate name than “campaign contribution.” I think it is more accurate to call this practice bribery — bribery to prevent legislation that interferes with corporate profits, bribery to create legal monopolies that allow the “donating” corporation to charge unfair prices, bribery to purchase exclusive tax breaks, and bribery to extract direct largess from the public treasury.

Our large corporate political contributors most definitely influence our politicians with their money; our politicians cannot possibly be elected without this massive largess under our current system.

The fact that corporate campaign money is bribery as it is commonly defined is the weak link in the control mechanism that corporations use to ensure cooperative and “business friendly” politicians.

I have been working to stop political bribery by using citizen’s initiative procedures to amend our Florida constitution and make it illegal. I think that if we can break this control link then other problems will become, if not directly solved, much more tractable. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to get much help with this project. If you have any ideas along these lines PLEASE let me know. My web page is at: http://BreakTheLink.org.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. I think this is the best, most important, clearest post I have ever

seen on this site. Talk about root causes!! I also think representatives should be banned for life for accepting jobs in idustries that they have lobbied for or against in their last 10 years in office. ( Like Tauzine and the pharmeceutical industry) Well stated.

[northstar]

31. Excellent, Post !!!

I strongly urge you to repost this as a new thread, which we can then kick to the front page and get many more people to read!

on edit: I'm going to nominate this thread, but it's pretty obvious that a lot of people don't read/only skim the responses. I think your response merits a post of it's own.

[BillyDoc]

37. OK, thanks, I'll post it!

Posted as: "If you are willing to WORK, we can beat this mess we are in!" Also edited slightly.

[Zorbuddha]

38. This is the way out

of the Pointless Forest.

[brokensymmetry]

16. Excellent points!

Kicked, nominated.

I agree with your statement of the problem. The solution lies in coming up with a broad stroke vision of the world we want, sharing that vision, and working on the details as we may - a derivative of the environmental "think global, act local" paradigm.

So, what is our vision? Perhaps something like what Kunstler advocates, with a return to a more local (much more local) orientation. Keep in mind that peak oil may compel this. Furthermore, corporations feed on capital - and to get capital, real capital, and keep it, they must grow. How does one maintain growth as the availability of energy declines? Some have suggested that one cannot.

I suspect that events will help us deconstruct some of the problems. So what should we be doing now? I suggest talking to people, getting to know more people, and building your personal network. Then work for the long-term good of that quasi-community of friends.

Finally, I think we must accept that the next 50 years - quite possibly more - will be a great challenge. We may be witness to the demise of two-thirds of humanity due to famine; and if you don't believe me, Google the term "dieoff". Perhaps mere survival, while maintaining some level of decency, is enough. Perhaps it is all we can expect.

[Deja Q]

17. If the corporate execs, who have several times the debt in assets combined

did their part for America and ponied up for the freedoms they've bought, our debt would be resolved HERE AND NOW. Period.

Ful/oil. It's a bit late and, never mind the need for petro-related items in farming, we're boned.

We're no culture. We're all wallets on legs as seen by the corporate elite. Disposable. A disposable society.

There is little hope.

No election will turn things around.

Our waterloo has come. And our waterloo is our greed.

And * can't blame Clinton or anyone else. Except maybe Reagan, neocons do like to eat their own for breakfast.

And I know just the book to recommend to people as well. You'll have to PM me for it though.

[AndyTiedye]

49. What You Mean WE?

Our waterloo has come. And our waterloo is our greed.

Most of us voted for the other guy in 2000. We got robbed and murdered.
(Mel Carnahan, R.I.P.)

We got robbed and murdered again in 2002.
(Paul Wellstone, R.I.P.)

We got robbed again in 2004, and tens of thousands of Iraqis got murdered.

[Extend a Hand]

18. Here is what I think...am I an idealist or a realist?

I do not believe that the American way of life as it exists today is sustainable; our way of life is doomed.

On good days, I think that as individuals start making serious lifestyle changes to prepare for and adapt to the lifesytle changes that will result from (likely future) enery shortages our quality of life might actually improve. We'll have locally and organically grown food, a slower less frantic pace, more cooperation rather and less competition, and even a cleaner environment.

On bad days I fear that democracy in this Country is doomed (if not already dead). A draft will be implemented in order to continue the energy grab that * started in Iraq. An economic disaster is likely.

No matter which way it goes, only one course of action that makes sense to me: To start learning to live with less enery. To learn to produce more of what my family needs. To consume less. To be debt free. To devote more effort to political activism.

I feel like by doing this I'll be better prepared for whatever happens and if by some miracle, disaster is averted...I will have adopted a lifestyle that is healthier, less stressful, environmentally friendly and just all around better. And that is how I am staying sane.

[sweetheart]

19. Crushing the paradigm

Your entire approach is "within" the belly of the beast.

My view is to crash the dollar and destroy the best from without, that
"your 20 years" pass by quickly with no spending power, and no influence
to export slavery and repression under the auspices of "flexible labour
and free trade".

America has ridden on a rising tide since WW2 and has started to ego-out
on it, thinking that such conditions will continue despite breaking with
the going consensus.

Well, now the consensus is bust, and there is NO BOTTOM to the hole.
The new consensus is by 5,700,000,000 people that america will grow some
humility, and nihilist or not, it is the new post-imperial consensus
yet unrealized on the domestic front.

There is no "them" as "we" are "they" in terms of imperialism, just
a difference between plain vanilla and rum raisin. The real debate,
unrealized in an american single-party consensus is the cost of
imperialism, and whether it is worth paying. The bottom of the hole
is discovering it is not, and digging our way out, is ditching the old
corporatism for a new flavour based on the rights and liberties of all
persons, young or old, gay or straight, male or female, american or
foreign. Until they reach the ground of equality, the hole will
seem infinite.

[Wizard777]

20. The entire country is going to have to suck it up.

But once they do we will levitate right out of that hole at lightening speed. :dunce:

The Crown is in Kether by the path of Binah.

[Lexingtonian]

32. but do not forget

the path by way of Hochma is also present, and important.... :-)

[Wizard777]

46. A Glorius Amen to That!

I bet he chokes on it. ;)

[peakoiler]

21. Oil will be the biggest issue

Right on! I totally agree that oil is going to be THE biggest issue over the next 15 years. More than terrorism. Not only are we going to battling with China and India for the world's dwindling oil reserves but we are going to have to come up with an alternative fuel source. What gets funding? A giant war machine to preserve oil assets or R&D to develop alternative energy sources?

[Massacure]

23. About education. As a 16 year old, let me just say

Some of my classmates are frickin idiots.

[The Traveler]

24. Interesting point of view

which I sorta disagree with. But only sorta.

Prediction is difficult when there is no historical precedent to guide us, and we live in unprecedented circumstances. In the scheme of human history, high energy technology based civilization has existed for the blink of an eye. Man's activity affects the atmosphere and oceans on a scale never before accomplished The world has never before sustained a human population of this magnitude. Similarly, economic systems have contrived ever more complex and arbitrary schemes of determining value, scheduling debt, and exchanging goods and services.

All this is operating at an ever accelerating pace. Things are happening, and they are happening fast, and most of these things point to the potential for sudden shifts in what we consider the normal equilibrium of things.

The policies of George Bush seem to be destabilizing ... much like throwing gas on the fire. Consequences have been felt in middle class America. The consquences become more painful as time goes on. Reality refuses to conform to the Fox News version. America is learning a potent lesson: Perception is not reality. Perception is our only access to reality. It is a mental capacity that can skillfully exercised, or by the skillful deceived. But while our perceptions have powerful influence on our conduct, they have little to know influence on the operation of reality. Eventually, all illusions are shattered.

The veil over the eyes of the American people grows thin and tattered, and this process, too, seems to be gaining momentum.

All this may well drive the political consciousness of the American people to a new "tipping point", where a sudden paradigm shift becomes possible. At that point, it is essential that we Democrats not only know how to get our ideals across and win, but also that we have innovative and practical plans to achieve the common good.

[NJCher]

26. it could happen in a heartbeat

I was thinking about some of the things you wrote about today and one thought that kept coming up was that I would hate to be the party in power at this time. The problems which you state are going to start manifesting themselves and the major reaction is going to be to throw these politicians out and start with a clean slate. Consequently, certain Dems and other types of candidates are going to be left to clean this mess up.

I also think something catastrophic will happen to change minds. When it happens, it will almost universally turn the American public against bush. Such catastrophies might be an economic meltdown or an environmental disaster.


Cher

[Egalitarian]

28. Excellent post

Thank you for investing the time to make such a well thought out post and for sharing it with us.

We must have a detached, non-emotional, rational, clear, etc. understanding of where we are and what our problem(s) is before we can begin digging ourselves out (collectively and individually).

How big is the hole? It makes no sense to measure or quantify the hole.

The important thing is to clearly see the hole.

If we see it clearly, on a daily basis in our own lives; then, we will begin to change in the necessary way.

[enid602]

30. the hole

People see the hole; they know intuitively that we went to war on false pretexts, and they know we're running out of petroleum. They know intuitively that we're losing our freedoms, and they're not so dumb as to not know they're being fed drivel by the media. People do know that * is bankrupting the country, and know on some level that our false economy cannot continue. They know that the clean air initiative was meant to lift constraints on polluters, and that no child left behind means all children will be left behind.
Nonetheless, we've invested so much in the exurban American dream, and I feel that the majority of Americans would rather continue to sleepwalk if they can continue this unsustainable lifestyle, if only for a few more years.

[nedbal]

29. I've got to develop a longer view...and somehow make that view meaningful

your words above are true, the repugs have trained the coulters and financed the college young repugs, they were trained with lowest common denominator sound bytes. we can't do it on logic or phrases that go too far beyond "what's in it for me?


the link to the article I stole my Sig below from is in my profile


may God help us all

[Lexingtonian]

33. Oh, it's easy to be pessimistic

Josh Marshall even coined a term for this wallowing between despair and nihilism in the political present: 'handbasket theology'. ('We're all going to hell in a handbasket' is the principle tenet of the Faith.)

'Lost generation'...no, we've sorta lost 36 years, since Nixon began the present Republican era. I don't believe we've really lost that much of these years in substance of the change taking place, but the amount of seeming waste/inefficiency involved- of lives- is tremendous and saddening.

Debt...we owe $7 trillion, $8-9 trillion when all is said and done. GNP is $12-14 trillion a year. It's roughly as manageable as we'd like to make it, and the rationalization we give it. To me it's basically the costs of the Cold War in aggregate...the cost we paid to defeat the crudest barbarism of peoples worldwide in its most advanced forms. We end up with a nation ready to become a civilization. It might have been worth it.

Education...the people presently in the high schools and colleges are not going to have to wage the fights that define the present. The issues of their day are probably the social and political and economic integration of North America, the end of Eurocentrism, lots of biomedical stuff- how much in way of genetic problems to 'engineer' out-, and creating the solution(s) to structural poverty- education, medical, personal capital.

Culture...the fight about Modernity is decided, and Modernity has won. Our job is the social and economic consequences. Theologically speaking, 'hard' theism will wither away. The colonial social order of the country will end, and economic fairness follow on the social equalization.

Fuel, Corporatism, Media...we're inevitably going nuclear in some form, to harnessing the primary source. We'll rehydrate coal and such for hydrocarbon fuels, nice as they are, and massively desalinate water. We'll have to put in measures to limit capital flight and other colonialist misbehavior, and reprogress taxation rates to cover the Cold War/post Cold War cleanup debt. It's far less complicated stuff than anyone imagines. The corporate media fails when it has no embattled audience to cater to, and other bits of the anti-Modern political apparatus (theocrats, oil barons, gun freaks) will rapidly wither away when their Movement fails and they stand there alone- having been given a perfect opportunity by the People to prove themselves worthy, and having utterly failed.

And their Movement is failing, maxed out these past few years, and is irredeemable as well as obsolete. Sure, greed and hate and envy will always motivate people to join the Right, but the present Radical Right carries the accumulated grievances and arrogances and delusions of centuries and generations in it, and that has been its true source of power. It has done as much as it could and dared and was permitted to do. It was ultimately just a peculiar way of old habits and beliefs and elites committing suicide.

[omega minimo]

34. We don't need another hero

Your perceptive comments on - Debt - Education - Information and the Media - Corporatism - Fuel/oil - Culture -
are all interconnected. In the common connections are the simple solutions.

"How do we "organize" such an effort and keep people's eyes on the goal when it's not immediate and right in front of them?"
It is right in front of them and immediate. Opening eyes is the challenge.

"Will it take a philosopher or visionary? or just a real solid and publically appealing game plan? And how do we sell a decade+ long plan to a culture that's become spood fed on instant gratification?"

Take away the spoon.


:bounce::evilgrin::bounce:

[omega minimo]

39. How simple? GLAD you asked!

[Protagoras]

40. Can understand the underlying sense of justice

that you might feel in your statement...but I'm afraid that the spoon is going away regardless in the leadership sense. On the other hand, the pacification through TV etc is going to keep right up.

The consequence is that we're likely to experience OUR pain and suffering for much longer than might otherwise be.

How about we remove Some of the eye candy and replace it with food of real sustinance...then if people want to eat it with a spoon, perhaps that won't be nearly as bad a thing?

*I love mixed metaphors*

[omega minimo]

41. Mexed Mitaphors

People always have the choice not to play their games.

Recognizing the interconnections embedded in your laundry list is a start.




:kick:

[Algomas]

36. Logic tells me that we are indeed doomed...

Given our predilection to act selfishly at the expense of the species and the planet, it is no surprise that in the end we may kill the host that could indefinitely sustain us. In my darker moments, I think we are just a cancerous growth consuming the earth and there is no redemption for us.

How's that for gloomy?

On the other hand, our capacity for creating the sublime keeps me on my feet most days. I think the best course of action is to seek out other enlightened souls with which to build community. While we are still able to communicate electronically, we should start making plans for post Armageddon survival. Who knows what might happen after the global collapse. A cohesive group of people who have learned some very bitter lessons may be able to sprout from the ashes and build a harmonious system in which the prime directive is Sufficiency.

There is always hope that we can break free from our historic cycle of GREED, FEAR, HATRED, WAR.

We must continue to speak truth to power and push back the darkness. People are gradually waking up. (high gas prices help our cause) Our bumper stickers, protest signs and big mouths are having an affect. Like a poster above said, we are nearing a "tipping point" in public perception. The question is, will it come in time to turn the tide?

I am very thankful for the DU. This community of thinkers has really helped me see our human dilemma clearly. We all deserve a pat on our pointy little heads for caring about issues above and beyond our daily bread.

[Turn CO Blue]

43. I enjoyed your post. I would like comment on

your second perception though: about the "kids today" thinking, that they can't get out of their MTV dumbed-down ways - and that it will take 20 years to get a group of movers and shakers. I don't really agree. I have more hope. My daughter is 15, and believe me, she "gets it".

I see the potential for a historical parallel. The youthful protesters of the late 60's, were the children of that uptight 50's scene. The 90's yuppie-ness and "family values" thinking reminds me of the uptight "keep up with the Joneses" and "family values" 50's.

I think the current group of 14 - 20 years old are (next to paper ballots and verified voting paper trails) our BEST SHOT at turning things around in this country AND in the next election. They will be voters in 2008. Many of them will be first-time voters. Their parents are "conservative". Kids like to "rebel" against the ideals and socio-political standards of their parents (or at least of their parent's generation.)

We Democrats simply have to find a way to target them with our message -- which is truth and evidence about what the neo-conservative agenda has destroyed.

It's true, we'll have to get the message out with "flava", with a Gen Y "feel" to it -- but that's what ad agencies are good for.

They'll "get it" if we bring it.

We also have to get more Democrats on every single school board in this whole darned country. That won't take 20 years. We could accomplish that by the start of the 2006-2007 school year.

[Protagoras]

44. Your last line is a HUGE key to the struggle I think.

Even in my liberal portland, I'm seeing RWingers setting up little cliques on every board and community committee they can. Meanwhile the Dems are very focused on the BIG Positions...and it's nice to have a Mayor or Governor who agrees. But if we're missing the boat on all those small positions on the way up, we're cutting the legs out from under ourselves.

I think my position about the younger generation isn't that they don't or shouldn't have hope...but that they peak time of their effectiveness is 20 years off. We'll need them to be fully ready to go when they are 35...because that's when they'll start taking the reigns of power. What we do in our 20s is important...but it's often reactionary and less than totally effective. Still expose and educate them now and they'll have the best chance of living right then.

Back to the school boards...so often people say "what can I do besides write some LTTE?" feeling like they are just a little fish in a big pond. Well, this is where we all need to remember that there are finance committes, library boards, school boards, etc in EVERY community. And half the time the only criteria for getting on is applying. In the absence of our application, the people on those boards will just invite their friends. Maybe we're not comfortable or able to run for Senate...but most of us could apply to some community boards...and that's the real way to Think Globally and Act Locally.

butterfly wings.

[Mythsaje]

45. I've been reading

Frank Herbert's "Dune" series for the umpteenth time.

He was a rational conservative (these days it's hard to grasp that any such thing exists) who understood the incredible interlocking relationship between politics, religion, economics, and social action. He warns repeatedly about trusting in absolutes, and that religion is ultimately manipulative and easily manipulated by expressions of power.

What a lot of the Republican base fails to understand is that things are far more complex than they seem on the surface. Understanding the complexity of social and political systems is not something that comes naturally. It has to be taught, and, frankly, the way our education system is set up, the sort of holistic approach we need just isn't available.

None of these obstacles are insurmountable--assuming the masses can be educated to the point where they understand what kind of crisis we're approaching.

I'd like to blame television and the mass media, but I think that's simplifying far too much. What the common masses lack is what Herbert referred to as "the gift of the magi" or imagination. The ability to see and grasp what isn't right in front of your face.

Witness the popularity of reality programming on TV, at the expense of shows that require some amount of imagination and awareness to follow. They replace conceptual context with immediate gratification, imagination with certainty.

Reading is fundamental. It expands the mind and, depending on the subjects one reads, can help a person to learn how to learn, something I'm not sure our education system does anymore.

There are some great posts on this thread, evidence that there are those out there who are not fooled by conceptual trickery. We need to promote depth of understanding...train people who can recognize patterns and act upon that recognition in a meaningful way...who can translate the subtle into obvious forms for those who have not been taught deeper comprehension.

Something sadly lacking in today's mainstream media.