Racism on the DU. What do we do about it?

[Tigress DEM]

What I want to know is when someone makes a comment that seems racist how do we get a dialog going that educates, holds people accountable and yet doesn't belittle people who make these comments. It seems like that would be fair in some way, yet all it does is makes it harder for people who grew up with these little racist pieces to let them go.

I myself get really upset when that is turned on children and am not sure I handled post #61 on the below thread very well.

Even though I'm not an apparent minority, I know enough of my Irish history to know about being stereotyped and disrespected so that I don't think it's good to do to someone else. See the movie Gangs of New York to get the gist.

I personally grew up in Washington state during the Black Panther period and from 8 - 18 years in a California barrio where I was a minority presence. I was able to make my way without getting my head blown off, unlike one of my classmates or killed in a street fight like the brother of one of my friends. I still feel guilty about that one. As kids we teased him to be tougher because he had this real effeminate thing about him when he was young. We didn't think he'd go to the other extreme and get into a gang or we would never have said a word.

Anyway, the thread below is another one of my less than sterling moments, but I really would appreciate a dialog here to help me get beyond whatever stereotypes I have that I don't recognize and also some feedback on how to speak up about racist comments without crushing the person who made them, so that some real healing can take place on this issue.

The DU is a great place and the more we come together on things and teach each other to be better people, the better people we will become.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3542977


The tape above is out of sequence, but because they had a lawyer, some of the comments are actually correct. IE: When the police arrived, the kid was sitting quietly.

I've seen cops come in with adults and they usually talk for awhile, a lot of times giving the person who was upset a chance to explain themselves. You know, innocent until proven guilty, diffuse the situation, see if people can just get along instead of having to cuff a 5 year old?

But in this case it was rush in and handcuff the "dangerous" child because the mother would be there in 10 minutes. She had told the school she could not leave work until 3pm, but would get there as soon as she could. She was there at something like 3:40pm.

I repeat, I did see the whole tape and I did see the girl was acting out, but I also know that teachers are trained to deal with that level of acting out. At least in Minnesota they are.

One of the things not mentioned is that this was all over some jelly beans. The teacher thought the 5 year old was acting "silly" and took her jelly beans that were to be used for a math counting project away from her. My first thought when I heard that part is, "What 5 year old doesn't act silly sometimes? Why does that demand discipline that goes all the way to arrest?"

At no time in the unedited 1/2 hour tape does anyone say to the 5 year old, "Why are you so angry?" At 5 years of age children simply feel and it is up to the adults in their lives to help them label their feelings and learn what actions are appropriate.

I can tell you that 5 year olds are usually honest and pretty transparent when it comes to jelly beans. "Mine is mine. Keep your hands off." And right there is the key. Kid is mad because jelly beans were taken away. OK, you have a right to your feelings, but tossing the room because you are mad is not OK and it isn't going to get you your jelly beans back. You want your jelly beans back, you have to calm down and talk about this. Teaching kids how to appropriately process their feelings is what makes teachers heroes in my mind.

Another couple of things about the full video (which I couldn't find. Links were there, but they weren't working for some reason. :shrug:)

The supposed "destruction" of something that belonged to another child took place off camera. And there was at least 5 minutes where the kid just stood next to some switch and turned it off and on. Instead of turning to the child and trying to reason with her when she had begun to calm down, the VP started talking to someone off camera.

I don't know if this was a set up or not. Since it's Florida and I remember some other major dishonest behaviors by people in charge, I wouldn't be surprised. I also think there was a possibility of "creating a crises" so the mom would get in line and not put them off when they called her to come get the kid or would authorize them to use passive restraint and it all got away from them.

[Name removed]

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[Tigress DEM]

3. Why do you say that?

Maybe you have a different definition of racism than I do.

Racism is:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

Discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

[TahitiNut]

8. So ... exactly how, SPECIFICALLY, is that post racist??

If it's so clear, then it should be easy to be specific. No? :shrug:

[Tigress DEM]

10. Fair question, I'm putting the response together.

You do understand that post #61 is the one that bugged me and not the whole thread?

[Tigress DEM]

17. Compare the video Atman posted ....

This was the post Atman made. To be fair it was an attempt at humor:

Subject: New video of 5-year-old's mom just released!

Here we see her mom "discussing" the incident with her father, and why he wasn't able to pick her up...

5-year-olds mom video

[Tigress DEM]

72. Link was broken on above post

I want you to know I am not in any way promoting this video, I am trying to let people understand why I was so upset at it being posted.

Some people may find this really offensive. I did.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/movies/26/Big+Momma+Beatdown

[Tigress DEM]

20. ..and The Video of the girl.. point#1

I am having problems finding feeds that work.. this is quicktime, but it isn't loading for me.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml


Anyway, what I found racist about it was:

1) Atman showed his video of a woman who was beating someone down to the ground and chasing him down to beat him some more and compared it to a small child hitting at an adult who was several times her size and LABELED the "beat down video" as the mother of the five year old "discussing" the situation with the girl's "father."

How is that racist?

It implies that black people are interchangeable and all the same -
(inferior) unstable, violent, not concerned about their children, unable to dialog.

It implies that the little girl will grow up just the same and that means the white people were right to put her in handcuffs because she obviously comes from a family that is teaching her to be violent.

It WAS NOT the child's mother.

Since he labeled it falsely at least one person, my husband who came in the middle of it assumed that it really WAS her mother and father, because there was a little girl in a white dress crying in the "joke" video.

[TahitiNut]

24. I must be dense.

When I saw the many versions of the video of the little girl, I didn't think it was at all noteworthy that she appeared to be 'black.' (Note: I don't know if that's how she thinks of herself. I've found that it's just not a good use of my time or faculties to make such judgments. To me, it's only material to the degree it's material to her or others. But that's me.)

When I looked at the video of the violent woman, I again didn't think it was at all noteworthy that she appeared to be black.

What I see in the video of the 5-year-old girl is a very difficult impasse in achieving cooperation in a school setting, including very questionable adult behavior as well as the child's behavior. What I see in the video of the violent woman is a lot of dysfunctional behavior. I just fail to see the rhyme or reason in all the emphasis on presumed race.

Now ... if there's some reasonable indication that the adult behavior toward the 5-year-old was racially biased, that might be a basis for discussion ... but I've seen no such reasonable indication. Does it happen? Sadly, yes. :shrug:

[Tigress DEM]

29. Not dense, Tahiti, but if you haven't been the target of prejudice...

it is hard to understand.

What brings the race element into it is that Atman labeled this video as the girls mom. I didn't. OK. Does that clarify where I started?

What also connects the girl and the woman IS the similarities of the flow of the videos. Because prejudice is so interlaced with our society a lot of what connects them (by Atman's choice to associate the two videos) with the whole race issue is that for SOME people (the little girl crying in the beat down video for instance) sadly, sadly that IS the example... but to relate it to an instance that has no real connection is to imply that THEY are ALL that way which is a lie and is a form of pre judging people based on color.

And because that IS so prevalent in our society, it has to be noted in order for people to learn it isn't fair and it isn't right and it isn't just. To let people slide by with something like this on DU is to ignore people who have died for the cause of racial equality... because WE ARE NOT THERE YET --- and if it can't happen on DU Where and WHEN WILL it happen?

Think about it this way. If the little girl had been a blond haired, blue eyed little Nellie Olsen type, would the police have handcuffed her AFTER she had calmed down and was sitting there quietly and dealt with her enraged parents?

I don't think so, because white people with money have more power without even having to go get a lawyer simply because it's the status quo.

[TahitiNut]

31. Well, I don't know if there's anyone who's not encountered prejudice.

When people ascribe to me their notion of what "men" or what "people my age" think or what "whites" think ... that's prejudice. When I'm denied a job for which I'm qualified due to my age, race, or gender, that's bigotry. Clearly, that doesn't begin to compare in scale to the kinds of insanely ignorant racism and anti-semitism I've seen up close and personal.

At the same time, I don't look for it where it's not clear. Such nit-picking trivializes the heinous bigotry embedded in our culture -- infecting people of all races. The Internet is a particularly difficult context within which such judgments can be made. Lord knows there's enough to deal with without alleging a felony when all that can be seen, at most, is a failure to be sensitive. (I'm not sure hyper-sensitivity is much of a virtue.)

Hell, I tend to regard the habitual adjectivization of race itself as racist. I dislike reading "black girl" when "girl" is appropriate, or "black woman" when "woman" is appropriate. But I only mention it when I think it might do some good. (I tend to keep the lights out when hunting cockroaches. :evilgrin: )

[Tigress DEM]

36. What makes this specific video so bad...

And maybe I am more sensitive to it because again, I live close to people who deal with racial profiling and who get pulled over and even shot because of their skin color and the assumption that they are violent.

In Camden Minnesota we nearly had race riots. Little children have been shot while sitting in their dining rooms and playing in their yards. I know some young children have been killed by police because the toy gun they had looked too real and it was assumed even a young child was dangerous if holding one. Honor students reach into their pocket for a driver license and are shot.

Videos like this and COPS feed into the idea that Blacks are inherently violent and make it harder for them to be hired or trusted because part of our relating to other people is based on the culture we grow up in.

To be able to really know black people as just people, we can't stand by and say that the video just happened to have a black woman and it didn't mean anything. If it hadn't meant anything, then it wouldn't have been posted.

White people have to quit deluding ourselves. Racism is real and it's buried deep in our psyche and needs to be dealt with so we can move on to better things. At least IMHO.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Tigress DEM]

54. This post didn't make it last night when my battery died..

I was going to give one more example of what I found in that post that I had difficulty with. And I want to say that even though I'm bringing people to the carpet, it isn't to be punative or to enroll them in a class.

In true DEM fashion I don't care what you decide to believe as a result of this thread, however, I hold myself accountable to speak up about what I know.

I do not know EVERYTHING and I do NOT CLAIM to either, although there have been many people in my life who can tell you about my stubborness on certain issues that would dispute that and I am posting here to learn how to convey what is really in my heart without stomping over other people's opinions because my RAGE over the prejudice against children is as deep as my sorrow that it exists at all.

TahitNut, please believe me I know what an a** I can be and I am so aware of how imperfect I am in trying to convey this issue properly and I apologize publicly if you seem to think I took you to task for the whole white race. That wasn't my intent.

****** On to the content of the post that didn't make it last night***

Last nights Battery Dead Post Subject:

Subject: American Tragedy gives 2 cents worth..
Post
Subject: Yeah, Atman.

How dare you provide a link to a video clip that clearly contains people who aren't white!

>>>>> How does this kind of comment even enter into it except to be slightly acerbic and lamely funny? Maybe as a way to get the guy who was trying to lighten up to lighten up and to make the Tigress shudder in my paws? <<<<<<

My response was:

Subject: Your name says it all and if you aren't grown up enough to ...


comprehend that there is a growing movement in this society to classify black people as "dangerous" younger and younger then maybe you should go play on the teen's bulleting board instead of trying to keep up with the adults.

Why are you here if you think it is more important to defend the right of someone to put in some yucks at a little five year old's expense than to really look at the situation realistically?

I bet you'd snatch the ball out of a kid's hand at the ball park too and refuse to give it back.

God, the world is full of repukes and Kastanza's, but I didn't think they were on the DU.

>>>>> I'm really not proud of that. Sorry AT. But like I said in the beginning, I get REALLY hot under the collar when people direct racism at children.

>>>>> THEY are the future. THEY are the chance we have of changing these things because when THEY are young, they haven't learned to hate yet, they don't see the world as Black, White, Asian, Indian and the rest. It's still simple for them... Share your jelly beans with me and you're my new best friend. Take MY jelly beans and you're in big trouble. I didn't say perfect, just simple.

[Tigress DEM]

22. Then when I called him on the post being racist, this is the reply

Subject: Oh for Christ's sake! What is racist about it?

Edited on Tue Apr-26-05 08:04 AM by Atman
Sorry the people involved in the video were of a race. I tried to find one that had people with no skin or facial features. The woman in the video was flailing and kicking ass, much like so many claim the five-year-old was doing. It was a natural tie-in, especially since the woman happened to be of the same race as the child. That does not make it racist! If it was of a white woman, heck, then it would have been racist...and just plain stupid, since the girl is black, as is her mother. What would you have posted if it was a white woman or Asian woman and I joked that it was her mom?

Get a thicker skin. The video was funny, and race has nothing to do with why it was funny. If you think it does, than the "racial" epithet might deserve a look in the mirror. Just because a person of color does something funny it doesn't make another person a racist for commenting on it! I was just trying to lighten up a heavy thread.

But I'd sure love to know how you get "racist" out of it. I didn't create the people or the video. It's just who they are, filmed doing something. Race didn't enter into in until you started flinging unfounded epithets.

[Tigress DEM]

25. I replied with what I saw as racism SPECIFICALLY....

First of all - it isn't her mother. YOU grouped her by race with someone who was truly out of control, an adult making a choice to assault her boyfriend above and beyond self protection and who was having a great time being abusive.

{{ Edit for the new discussion - because we may not have an actual video of the 5 year old - the reason the "having a great time" part was put in is because the woman was laughing, the child was not... the woman was larger than her target, the child was not... the woman was making a bad choice as an adult, the child was in need of being shown a better way - IMHO - not of being handcuffed }}

{{back to my original reply}}

Second - when you put out a video of domestic abuse that is clearly over the line (white/black/polka dot - it doesn't matter what color of skin) it isn't funny. Anyone who has been beaten wouldn't laugh at what you think is so hilarious.

If you had put on some MAD TV skit with black people "arguing" about who was supposed to pick up the kid, that might have been funny, if a bit on the edge of poor taste, but I've laughed at worse.

Your message and opinion are potent and not to be ignored, but you are grouping her by race and making the suggestion that she comes by violent tendencies naturally by showing an out of control black woman and saying it's her mother.

This is a common stereotype and it's a big reason why a five year old black girl gets handcuffed and a five year old white girl doesn't.

I saw the video. The girl was defiant and disobedient. She needed time out and people who could get her to process her anger without making a mess or dancing on the table.

In fact, in your video, I think proportionately the little girl is more in the position of the man being beaten, guilty of a sullen attitude and pissing off the wrong person.

She was making token strikes to keep the teacher out of her space in the same way the man ineffectively tried to strike back so his shame over being beaten by a woman would be lessened.

By the time the police arrived the girl was sitting quietly. The police could have talked to her for at least a little while before determining she was such a menace to society that she needed to be cuffed.

They could have watched the video and by the time that was done, the mother would have arrived and they could have read her the riot act instead of manhandling the child.

[Tigress DEM]

26. Then dhinojosa jumped in...

Subject: Say what? Why 'cause they're black? Well that's racist too.

Show me a white wife beating up on her abusive white husband and I will laugh equally hard.

>>>>> my reply <<<<<


Subject: Some people laugh at traffic fatalities - doesn't make it funny.

Just because you think a woman beating up on a man is funny doesn't make it so.

Just because you would laugh equally as hard if it is white or black doesn't mean that equating a little 5 year old girl's behavior with that video isn't racist.

This is reinforcing a stereotype that says that little girl comes by her out of control tendencies naturally. It doesn't matter that you people don't KNOW anything about her mother.

She could have been an RN who couldn't leave a quadriplegic until her relief arrived. But you guys go for the lowest common denominator and then tell me I'm racist for pointing it out. Sound like re thugs to me.

Make sure to kiss both sides dip-weed.

**** To understand the "kiss both sides" remark, you have to understand that at the time of the post dhinojosa had an "ass" with big red kissy lips puckering up at the bottom of his post - as if to say "Kiss my Ass" but since there were lips involved, I turned the phrase around.
**** I'm not saying I'm proud of stooping to that level, but if people want to get down and into the gutter with verbal punches, I can give it back in dueces.

And again, this is why I am posting this thread.

Is what I did to shut these two up the right thing or the wrong thing or is there another way to accomplish the same goal?

Although if we use Atman's yard stick, I think my telling dhinojosa was a pretty good comeback.

My question is, does that kind of stuff do more harm than good?

[Tigress DEM]

30. Thanks, BTW for the question.

I really have wanted to sort this out for a long time.

My first experience with racism when I was a little girl has always made me curious about this.

I lived in Washington State prior to age 8 and somewhere around Kindergarten or 1st grade I had 2 friends. One was White, the other Indian. We used to put blankets over the clothesline in back of the white girl's house to make a tent.

We had a great time when we were alone together, but the white girls parents were prejudiced and so was her older brother. My white friend was kind of like a tug of war toy. She wanted to be kind and have fun with us, but the ridicule she took in her family was too much. Also her brother was very mean to her - I guess what older brother isn't, but...

For awhile my white friend stood up like any young child will until the tent was set on fire one night. None of us were there. I am pretty sure it was her older brother. We were all too young to have matches.

Her family insisted it was the Indian family's fault, whether they blamed my friend or her brother or whoever, I don't exactly remember; but even at 5 or 6 years old I knew who acted guilty and who didn't have anything to gain by destroying the tent.

My Indian friend really enjoyed her time being with us and not being treated differently than anyone else. She was kind and her family was close and had a lot of integrity. She would never have destroyed that place.

My White friend's brother was irritated that we were out there having fun and he wasn't welcome because he was so mean to my Indian friend that we shooed him out all the time or complained to his mom.

When her family said she wasn't allowed to play with the Indian girl or ME if I played with the Indian girl, I gave up my White friend because I didn't think there was anything fair about punishing an innocent person and that the parents were the ones making the dumb decision, not me.

My Indian friend was so concerned about me giving up the other friend, and all I remember telling her was that the White girl (I've forgotten both of these girl's names) had nice things and sometimes acted nice, but that my Indian friend really was a nice person.

I still can't effectively explain it, but it really went beneath the skin, beneath manners into the full spiritual way that these families differed.

The one did not do anything wrong and did nothing to get back at the other for their accusations, although the two brothers may have gotten into a fight or two, but it wasn't encouraged by the Indian family.

The other - obviously to me - started every nasty thing from the beginning and then found a way to blame it on someone they didn't like just because they could.

Maybe that's the real reason I'm a DEM.

[TahitiNut]

33. You're welcome, of course. I only have one caution ...

We human beans tend to leap onto the stage of the Great Melodrama where there are three roles: Victim, Villain, and Rescuer. Almost nobody chooses the role of Villain; it's an assigned role, needed by both the Victim and the Rescuer to give their roles meaning and import. Sometimes, in the role of either Victim or Rescuer, we self-righteously engage in a little villainy ourselves. After all, it is a melodrama.

So, when we leap onto that stage, we clearly run the risk of taking on the role of Villain.

It's best to stay off the stage.
Personally, I prefer to heckle from the audience. :evilgrin:

[Tigress DEM]

37. I don't live my life according to other people's rules.

My goal here is to learn more about not being prejudiced and finding better ways to make my point without resorting to getting nasty to shut people up.

I personally think heckling from the audience isn't helpful. Amusing, but not helpful. Still, if it isn't mean and vile, it keeps things interesting.

Peace :hippie:

[ultraist]

12. Well of course

We should automatically assume that the mother, because she is Black, lives in the slums, and beats people up. We know all Black women are violent, bitches with attitudes. OF COURSE! Nothing wrong with negative stereotypes.

:eyes:

[TahitiNut]

18. Maybe I'm just not up on my collection of stereotypes.

So, if the people in that scene were Hispanic, it wouldn't be a stereotype to show an emotional Latina kicking the crap out of some guy?

If the people in that scene were Anglos, it wouldn't be a stereotype to show an enraged and somewhat stocky female kicking the crap out of some guy?

Well, I guess someone looking through race-colored glasses can interpret such visuals in just about any way they want. In my view, the generalizing leap from a single anecdotal example to an entire race is symptomatic of racism, not the bare portrayal of any single incident.

Personally, I don't see any behavior in that video that's unique or attributable to any ethnic group. (Indeed, I can't remember ever seeing anything significant that's uniquely attributable to ethnicity ... except ethnicity itself.) And I don't regard that as a "slum" either -- I have (working class) friends and family who live in neighborhoods that resemble what I saw in that video. I've seen slums. That ain't one.

[ultraist]

28. Perhaps you are not aware of the racist stereotypes of Black women

Compare the video to this racist stereotype. They are very similiar. Posting that video in a discussion about a Black woman, was racist stereotyping.



http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/001290.html

Knipp's controversial character and alter ego, Shirley Q Liquor, was an inarticulate black welfare mother with 19 children, a characterization that confirmed many of society's ugliest racial stereotypes. In broken English, Liquor made comments like "axe your mamma how she durrin" and misused words like "ignunt." Also on Knipp's web site, Shirley Q Liquor provides daily commentary in a feature called "audio ignunce." In one scene, she's standing in front of a Confederate flag. Meanwhile, another Knipp character, a white woman named Betty Butterfield, describes Martin Luther King as a "colored preacher" during a video segment on the Lutheran Church.

With the music to Aretha Franklin's hit song "Respect" in the background, Knipp also parodies the queen of soul and urges her to shop at Wal-Mart. And in a music video titled Who Is My Baby's Daddy, Knipp presents a series of black faces to a list of stereotypical fake black names.

Given that background, it's not surprising that New York's Audre Lorde Project, the New York State Black Gay Network, South Asian Lesbian Gay Association, and Yo Sistah! have launched a protest on Monday at Club Spirit where Knipp is scheduled to emcee at Junior Vasquez's MLK Day party.

“This is absolutely not a free speech issue. Part of the legacy of Dr. King is understanding that just because something is legal, that doesn’t make it right – slavery? segregation? poverty? homophobia?” said Colin Robinson, Executive Director of the New York State Black Gay Network. “The right to say some things doesn’t change the way those words and images inflict violence on Black women.” “Somebody’s got to hold Chuck Knipp and these businesses accountable," said Kris Hayashi, Executive Director of the Audre Lorde Project. "Housing, employment, police violence, immigration rights, the government’s war on terrorism – these are the issues facing LGBTST People of Color, while others in our own community inflict additional violence on us.” Activists plan to present the "Jesse Helms Award for Profiting from Racism and Misogyny on Martin Luther King Jr. Day” to Chuck Knipp, Junior Vasquez and Club Spirit at a press conference on Monday. The press conference will take place a 1 p.m. at Club Spirit, 530 West 27th, between 10th and 11th Avenue.

[Tigress DEM]

40. Thank you. Very good information.

Here's another stereotype

--- I'm a fat white woman, so (and I do think this is funny because I can laugh at myself) but just like you said, free speech don't make it right... Just because it comes in your size, don't mean you should wear it.

--- Or what about all the Hell Kirstie Allie is getting for having a character that is a neurotic fat woman. All the overweight ladies out there are saying that because she has people laughing at us it means people will stop taking the groups that represent intelligent working women who have weight issues seriously.

--- We say here on DU (satisfied Eloriel?) that it's difficult to make a man understand something when his job depends on NOT understanding it

conversely to the stereotype issue >>

--- It's hard to get someone to understand that what they are doing is hurtful to another person if their punchline depends on the other person having a thick enough skin to be the butt of the joke.

I simply didn't think there was any reason to make a 5 year old the butt of the tasteless joke that the video represented.

[Tigress DEM]

To link the video in the first place is where things went wrong...

The second video is not an appropriate comment on what we were discussing in the thread. It was a cheap shot.

I understand how you can stand back and refuse to see it as almost a way to say, if I don't look at it that way then it isn't racist, but it is.

The 5 year old was born in that skin. Nothing she can ever do is going to make her Latina or Anglo. She has no choice about her race. To make a comment on a thread discussing what happened to this child that is a vicous joke - that is only funny because we have been taught to laugh at the tragedy of others who are different from us and therefore suspect and frightening - even at 5 years old - reflects our inherant racism.

It wasn't funny. It wasn't appropriate and it was a mean spirited attempt to kick someone when they are down just because our society says that's funny stuff.

[Tigress DEM]

34. To link the video in the first place is where things went wrong...

The second video is not an appropriate comment on what we were discussing in the thread. It was a cheap shot.

I understand how you can stand back and refuse to see it as almost a way to say, if I don't look at it that way then it isn't racist, but it is.

The 5 year old was born in that skin. Nothing she can ever do is going to make her Latina or Anglo. She has no choice about her race. To make a comment on a thread discussing what happened to this child that is a viscous joke - that is only funny because we have been taught to laugh at the tragedy of others who are different from us and therefore suspect and frightening - even at 5 years old - reflects our inherent racism.

It wasn't funny. It wasn't appropriate and it was a mean spirited attempt to kick someone when they are down just because our society says that's funny stuff.

[TahitiNut]

38. Well, I guess the discussion is over.

"I understand how you can stand back and refuse to see it as almost a way to say, if I don't look at it that way then it isn't racist, but it is."

I thought it was a discussion, not a tutorial. I'm didn't enroll in a class. As far as I'm concerned, your opinion isn't fact any more than mine.

Your above statement is insulting and arrogant. To claim that another refuses to see when they merely disagree with you isn't a posture that permits discussion. (It seems to prove the point I made in this post.)

I'm done with this thread. :hi:

Next? :eyes:

[Tigress DEM]

41. Clarification, I'm not saying that YOU intended any racism...

In fact, because you don't have that filter, I'm stating that you can refuse to see that it exists at all - for anyone.

I'm saying that racism is a fact of life that is woven into the thread of our collective society.

It's GREAT that you don't put people down and again - I'm sorry if I go overboard in some ways, but over many years I have heard stories from people who have been on the other side of these types of things that explain why it is percieved that way.

It is a form of oppression and a way to keep people in their places.

[Tigress DEM]

32. Except the fact that they are negative stereotypes...

<grin>

[Horse with no Name]

2. Actually what you need to realize is

That was about the 5th or 6th of very heated threads on the same subject and everyone had already taken sides and the lines were drawn.
The passion was high. I personally had passionate feelings about this case and chose to stay out of this particular thread because it was just going to be another argument.
From what I read--you didn't really cross the line. You were mild compared to some (including myself) on the previous threads on this subject.

[Tigress DEM]

4. Yeah, I gathered it had been a heated round....

like I said, if the video had been a mad tv spoof and there were actors beating on each other and it was not for real, someone's pain being made fun of, I would have been able to see the humor of it.

But this video was reposted #61 as "5-year-olds mom video" which like I said made a slander on the mother with a video of someone who was violent and out of control and which IMHO is exactly the type of sterotype that cuffing a 5 year old black girl embodies.

I kid you not - look at the original name of the video.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/beatdown.html

[VoiceOfFreedom]

5. You wanna become part of the solution instead of becoming the problem?????

What you gotta do is educate people about racial and ethnic minorities and show them what they are really like. You gotta breakthrough the stereotypes that the people of this country hold about people of race. Even more importantly, you have to create a sense of outreach between racial groups in order to promote understanding and equality. My dad's Persian, and he doesn't like black people. In Iran there is just as much racial diversity as there is in the U.S. and yet there is still mistrust and bad feeling between racial communities both In Iran and definitely in the U.S. We have to educate people so that they finally see the facts rather than what the demagogues who promote fear and hate tell them in their churches, on their radios and televisions, and what the people hear from the government.

[Cleita]

6. My thoughts.

"What you gotta do is educate people about racial and ethnic minorities and show them what they are really like."

Well, the fact is that we all come from the same place. We are all human beings on an equal biological level. The average human wants to be able to feed his/her family and give them a good start in life so when they grow up, they will be useful human beings who will raise the next generation after them.

We are all alike, not only in our physiology, but our life goals. Why is that so hard for bigots to understand?

[Tigress DEM]

21. I think it goes back to the time of "clans" when life was really violent..

Caveman society when people were first tenatively coming together were strictly seperated into US and Them and it was a club on sight kind of thing.

Having progressive societies that help people meet the basic needs of survival enables us to stop and look at each other and realize that we are more alike than it would seem from appearences.

When ten people are fighting over enough food for three, they are going to divide up, not the food, but each other into US and Them.

If there is enough food, people might still divide up, but if there is an opportunity to interact on another level it can happen and develop new impressions.

Yes, underneath our skin and in our hearts most of us just want some basic respect of our human dignity. And different people have different views of what that is, so even with the best of intentions people can accidently insult one another.

[TahitiNut]

27. "We are all alike" ... and we're all unique.

For me, it's the uniqueness of each person that makes it fun. I'd be bored as hell in a roomfull of me's. :shrug:

[RagingInMiami]

76. Not to mention you guys will probably all drive each other crazy

analzying each other's motives, and trying to dechiper each other's actions.

[Tomee450]

7. Im curious.

What is the reason for your father's dislike of black people?

[Tigress DEM]

9. I follow the educate point, but who knows the truth?

What can we agree on?

I really truly believe that equating that child's mild tantrum that wound her up in handcuffs -- and I saw the whole video and I have dealt with out of control kids a lot --- to a woman who was out of control and beating someone was a racist post.

I surely can appreciate the "sick" sense of humor. OK, we have all grown up with stereotypical humor.

However, as our society matures and our world grows smaller, we have to set aside the cheap shots and treat others the way we would expect them to treat us.

What would Atman have thought if I had responded by assuming he was a poor white snob and found a trailer trash video and marked it as his mom? See, there is the point of "get back" that can go on and on and on if we don't stop it. But how do you really stop it?

I'm intimidated face to face to talk to minorities sometimes, but I would love to really get to the nitty gritty truth so some healing can happen in this world. It's just hard to ask people to open up their own wounds when they think it's just idle curiosity or baiting.

[alarcojon]

23. Hey, Voice, welcome to DU

and here is a thought of mine on this subject: a problem many white liberals have (I am not trying to single out DUer's) is a marked tendency to think minorities are very similar in thoughts, attitudes, appearance, etc. All black people like hip-hop. All Latinos dance the lambada (the forbidden dance of love). All Asians are kung fu experts. On a subtler level: all Native Americans are "closer to the earth" and have an innate spirituality.

We in fact exist in as rich a spectrum as white people. It's just that a white person would never be asked "what do your people think about......" But in fact I have been asked this many times (I am Latino). Even worse, I have been asked "what do people of color think about ........."

I understand the impulse to learn, but it is most important to get to know the individual and do your best to set aside the cultural assumptions you may have about them. Some of them may indeed hold, but many of them probably won't.

Of course this also holds the other way. As a minority I try not to assume that every random white person is a racist or wishes me ill. It's just that I have to be prepared to react if that is indeed the case. Survival as a brown man.

[Tigress DEM]

42. See, there is the rub...

Being whoever we are, we just don't know the other side of anyone unless we ask. The occassions where that works and doesn't offend or make someone feel like they are always having to be the minority educator in the room are not many.

I tend to wade in and open mouth, insert foot simply because I've always enjoyed diversity and I think honesty is better than beating around the bush.

I don't think of my friends as being any certain color in the big scheme of things because what is important about them is always the inside, but I find these things interesting and I really want to make a difference, help heal this rift if only with the people I come in contact with by learning some way through it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if Politically Correct is at one end of the extreme and Racist is at the other isn't there some type of honesty in the middle that is liveable for everyone so we can really enjoy our differences?

[alarcojon]

79. Speaking for myself

I am very aware of and uncomfortable with situations where I am asked to speak for my ethnic group. But questions don't need to be framed that way. Just think of the shoe being on the other foot - white people are rarely if ever asked "what do white people think about this"; they are asked "what do YOU think about this." Once you get to know someone a little better, you can explore why they feel the way they do. It might be due to cultural reasons, and it may be due to other reasons entirely. Either way, you get to know an individual and take small steps to understand their culture. There is no alternative that is comfortable to all involved, because these issues are so complex and so personally felt - you can't expect to get at anything meningful in a short period of time.

[Tigress DEM]

86. I hear what you are saying...

And yet... on both sides people tend to avoid these issues. It's like if it isn't a problem between "me" and "that person," it just doesn't come up.

Unless they have some sort of problem with someone else and feel comfortable enough to discuss it with me, but then they still might feel more comfortable talking to someone they know understands instead of trying to explain it to me on top of dealing with how something like that pissed them off.

[Moderator]

11. Alert on a post you feel is innapropriate.

We appreciate that response.


Thanks for your consideration,
DU Mod

[ultraist]

13. I believe I did alert on it, the day it was posted

It is an example of a very negative stereotype and is RACIST to post in that context, claiming that's the mother of the handcuffed girl

[Tigress DEM]

43. Is there a problem?

You understand I'm not trying to start a flame or anything, right?

[QC]

14. Well, we can engage people in conversation and ask them questions

that point out the flaws in their thinking, or we can publicly "call them out" and harden them in their positions and allow them to feel that they have been wronged.

I guess the choice depends on whether we want to "win hearts and minds" or just declare our own wondrous moral superiority.

[TahitiNut]

19. I'd rather declare my own wondrous moral superiority.

Now all I have to do is develop it. :silly:
It's "hard work." :dunce:
I aspire to look down my nose at Gandhi. :evilgrin:

[Tigress DEM]

44. I get what you're saying in a general sense...

What I'm trying to understand is specifics, most especially when there is a sort of agreement in principle that racism is wrong, and that DEMS and Progressives stand up for equal rights.... correct?

Then when I see posts like #61 I think there must be a freeper on board, but then I question that mentality because I know it took me a long time to get my understandings and maybe other people were learning other things.

I'm trying to be open minded, but I've also wanted to really pump the information out of others somehow.

For instance, my husband has been following up on these people who are savants. There is one young man who can do incredible things with numbers and is also highly skilled in language so he can describe what it feels like to be him and have that gift.

This is the kind of thing that I want from minorities. Let me see the world through their experiences, their dreams and pain so I can really relate and find ways to push every bit of prejudice out of me so it just isn't there to be an issue.

Crazy goal, but you know, shoot for the moon and you might make it to Cleavland.

[stillcool]

15. i missed that particular thread.....

but was affected by all the buzz. I was in a foster-child-type situation, and was asked to please not come back to the catholic academy where i attended kindergarten. While i don't remember the incidents where i supposedly threw stones at the principal and kicked a nun, i remember very clearly other incidents that happened in that same year. i just love how people love to judge anyone else. As far as that racist bit...its the same crap, people getting their jollies off anyone elses misery. Of course if that was your family that was portrayed, or if you grew up in a violent home where that behavior is exhibited...you might not think it so fucking funny. Posts like these may be important to reveal the lack of depth in many peoples political
beliefs. There is nothing that we see outside ourselves that is not created from within. Its all in each and every one of us, and the first one that says 'oh no, not me', has either not lived long enough or is still asleep.

[Tigress DEM]

45. Lucky you.

It pissed me of for days and then I felt bad about my part.

:dilemma:

[Cleita]

16. Speaking of the Irish, back when the troubles were happening

in Northern Ireland, many Catholic Irish were coming to the USA to escape the troubles. I met many back then in the seventies. They told me the same story, that racism breeds here. They didn't get the best jobs if there was a Protestant to fill them. Many were out of work. The Catholics had to live in their own neighborhoods and their children had to go to separate schools.

A very dear friend of mine stated the situation like this. If you are a Catholic in Belfast, "you are treated the same as the black people are treated here."

[Tigress DEM]

46. Yeah, it's back to US and THEM...

Anyone can be a THEM if there is an US that is afraid to understand when things get outside of our own thinking sphere.

It does go back to basic survival skills. Clans did used to kill each other because there was a scarcity. Our ability to produce an abundance and to share it (even as poorly as we do these days) allows there to be some room for higher thought that isn't caught up in one type of survival or another.

[katsy]

35. I have 4 year olds...

The video of that 5 year old girl made me ill. An adult, especially a teacher, should know better than to keep confronting and attempting to corner a child.

Had that been my child, he/she may have acted similarly. Neither likes to be pinned down physically.

The teacher's behavior was atrocious. She deliberately kept blocking the little girl. I can't understand that. I would have punched her lights out if she kept popping up in my face! Why not distract her with something the child would take an interest in? Or... sit down and watch that she doesn't harm herself until her mother comes to school.

My kids have come home with black eyes and bite marks from "unruly" kids... not one of them were handcuffed. White kids biting and punching other white kids is business as usual. No teevee spectacular there. No checking the little brats for aids. They're white.

So what am I supposed to do... "tsk tsk" over a 5 year old girl that likes playing with light switches or breaks a toy? Like breaking toys isn't in their genes or something?

Give me a freaking break. I'd rather have her playing with my kids than the future little neocons who bit my kids. They were white. No fuss. No videos. No shock and awe.

There was enough racism in that little "made for teevee" video to last me a lifetime. Falling for that "bad black child" bullshit may not be racist on it's face... but it does promote stereotyping IMO.

Can I demand the stupid media follow my kids around until those angry little white neocons are caught biting them. Maybe I'll call the cops in to taser those little white neocon boys. Yeah... they'll come rushing in and get those white kids whose parents are doctors. Sure they will. Then the media will go off on one-hours specials about how rotten little white neocons are.

[Tigress DEM]

47. I've always liked this saying, don't know where it came from...

There's a little bit of bad
in the best of us,
A little bit of good
in the least of us,
So it hardly behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us.

[Tigress DEM]

49. So do you think it's mostly mothers that get what I mean here?

Obviously a mom has a gut instinct about what is out of control or normal kid behavior so we watch this video differently.

On the DU they had these videos supposedly proving someone was out of control and having an affair and those videos were doctored, taken out of context.

I don't remember who it was about, but to me I took from that the piece that the truth was bad enough, but it didn't prove criminal intent or something. Anyway, the original tape showed how things happened over time and the edited tape juxtaposed images that implied things that weren't true.

When I'm looking at lies and stereotypes, I go by this gut instinct that says, if you plugged in an apple where you have the watermelon, what do you get? So if an apple can do something without getting arrested, why arrest the watermelon?

You know to take this totally away from black, white etc...

[Boredtodeath]

50. Yes and yes

Yes, mothers at DU get what you are saying. We've all dealt with out of control 5 yr. olds and know you don't handcuff them. I'm an old fogey now, but I remember when my brother was a 5 yr. old brat who would hold his breath until he passed out. The doctor told my mother to let him do it - when he passed out he'd start breathing again since it's a natural body function. Brother only did it one more time after that - when he no longer freaked out my mother and she walked away at his threats.

Yes, the racism was evident at DU with that incident.

[katsy]

75. Very true.

" When I'm looking at lies and stereotypes, I go by this gut instinct that says, if you plugged in an apple where you have the watermelon, what do you get? So if an apple can do something without getting arrested, why arrest the watermelon? "

-------------------------------------- In this particular case of the 5 year old, where was the outrage? Where's the ACLU?

[Tigress DEM]

87. People are too busy blaming the mother.

At least that is how I've taken it.

People are upset that the "race card" came out and even people of color are distancing themselves from this because of various pieces they see as disturbing. "Why didn't the mother come right away?" "Why did she have a 'don't touch my kid' policy?"

And of course a lot of people were evaluating it from hand picked footage and didn't watch the entire video. I gave a recap of what I saw on post #66. It's like if you see a man with a gun and you cut to a shot of someone getting shot and dying - you assume the two are related - so GUILTY by editing.

I don't know. Maybe things are different in Florida. I lived there for a time but I didn't stay there long enough to raise my son there, so I don't know what people expect of 5 year olds today.

I know even teachers here in Minnesota are getting "snarky" to kindegartners. One relative of mine was saying her 5 year old's teacher came up to her and ripped a sticker she had put in the wrong place off and told her she would have to re-do it. The 5 year old came away feeling the teacher didn't like her. It may have been said in a kind tone, I don't know, but the end result left me feeling confused.

Not in the same league with this instance

[Jack_DeLeon]

39. Change human nature...

good luck with that.

[Tigress DEM]

48. Just my own, Jack...

Anyone else wants to learn as well that's fine.

[Kenneth ken]

51. I may be off base

but I think not. I believe the girl who got handcuffed was black. I can't see the video with the woman "kicking ass", but apparently she is black as well. She also is not actually the girl's mother.

Now, if I have those points correct, the video is racist in that it generalizes and denigrates.

Atman labels it "discussing" laughingly, which implies blacks in general (since this really isn't the girl's mother, but hey, any black woman will do for generalized denigrating) are incapable of rational discourse, and violence is the general means of communication.

I think you were right to call it racist.

What can be done? I think you made an admirable effort, but sometimes people aren't willing to listen for whatever reason. I'd say for purposes of DU, your best option would have been to make one effort to point out how it was racist, and if it didn't bring the poster around, then alert on the post and let the Mods decide - that's what they're here for.

:hi:

[Tigress DEM]

55. Thanks for some really good imput, Ken.

I went into the AA forums last night and I think the fact that you simply admitted that if the facts as stated are correct then it falls under the category of racism, that is the main component of respect that African Americans expect from US - especially if we think to use anything MLK said in a sentence proclaiming that we want a better world that does not contain racism.

The Moderators do a great job here, and I do believe for the purpose of dealing with people who won't simply acknowledge, "Yeah, I see how that could be percieved that way - but that wasn't my intent. I'll think about it and decide that knowing what I know now if I would still do that again," your suggestion is the best way to deal with the poster at the time - especially for a poster facing me because I can be uncharacteristically nasty when racism is directed at a child.

I hear you and I take that to heart.

Again, I'm going to say, I am not going out of my way to persecute these posters. I want a dialog on this issue and the problem is way above and beyond the scope of that space and time. I'm not trying to make over the DU either, but I feel we have so much to give each other here if we will tackle this issue with characteristic DU skill.

However, and I haven't said this yet but I made a PROMISE recently to stand up for someone who was getting a raw deal and I intend to not let this simply slide by because it makes people uncomfortable.

Additional reasons.

Racism - WRONG

Racism on DU - WRONG in a worse way.

Addressing it, uncomfortable and possibly flamable, but much needed.

African American Presence on DU - seemingly minimal, that's bad for DU and Democracy.

The need for African Americans to be involved in DU issues - MAJOR.

The need for DU to hear what AAs have to say about why they are leaving the DEMs against their "best" interests - MAJOR.

The need for DU to be more than a safe place for minorities in order to help transform the party and the way we deal with things - MAJORLY IMPORTANT.


WHEN I Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" I knew that he wrote that letter to me across the years and the times and boundries of all race or creed.

Although he was killed before I ever had the mandate to be a VOICE for my brothers and sisters in this world born of different mothers and fathers, before I was old enough to know that EVERYONE who believes in justice should read that letter, I feel if I don't speak up, I'm letting him down and I just can't face myself in the mirror if I do that.

In keeping with the DU spirit of not plagerising I'll keep this to the first four paragraphs and I'm cutting the forth short, but this is my justification for keeping my uppity mouth flapping until the day I day and the DU, bless you all, will just have to get used to it.


From the book "The Impossible Will Take A Little While" by Paul Loeb.
Chapter 33: Letter From The Birmingham Jail - MLK JR

<clip>

While confined here in the Birmingham City Jail, I came across your recent statement calling our present activities "unwise and untimely." You deplore the demonstrations that are presently taking place in irmingham. But I am sorry that your statement did not express a simular concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.

Frankly, I have neer yet engaged in a direct action movement that was "well timed," according to the timetable of those who have not suffered unduly. For yearsnow I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with a piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see with the distinguished jurist of yesterday that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

I guess it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick, brutalize and even kill your black brothers and sisters with impunity; when you see the vast majority of your 20 million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see the depressing clouds of inferiority begin to form in her little mental sky, and see her begin to distort her little personality by unconsciously developing a bitterness toward white people........


WARNING!! :rant:


I HOPE this helps people understand why as a mother I FEEL OUTRAGE that that five year old mother has to explain to her child WHY it was ok for the police to HANDCUFF her even after she had settled down from being really angry and given no real help from the adults around her after having her jelly beans taken away.

I HOPE that this helps people understand that why as a dedicated DEM I FEEL ASHAMED of myself and people here when we TAKE UP THE WEAPONS of the NEOCONS and DO THEIR WORK FOR THEM.

DOES ANYONE GET THIS NOW?

If I ever have to look in that little five year old girl's eyes, I WILL NOT have it on MY CONSCIENCE tha I am one of those cheap a**ed white Americans who "Holds THESE TRUTHS SELF EVIDENT" except when it's "humorous" to point to a tragedy and LAUGH MY A** off.

Because I WILL NOT BE Silent in the face of injustice.

Because I WILL NOT BE one of those who tell blacks or any minority to just "get over it".

The people who HAD to stand up for Slavery and Discrimination in the degree it was happening in MLK's time were the moderate white people who had the POWER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THAT HASN'T CHANGED and although much has improved, I DO NOT KID myself. With the present administration desiring to bring us back in time to before they lost control of Uppity Blacks and Whites who DARED to DREAM of EQUALITY - I HAVE NO CHOICE but to STAND UP AND SCREAM on DU until SOMEONE HEARS ME.

The time to END RACISM is NOW. The place to START is Everywhere and the DU can be part of the solution or part of the problem - or even both at the same time. It's a choice.

I KNOW what I must do.

Do you?


Thanks for lettig me rant. This has nothing to do with you.. Again, this is the issue not against anyone personally. I just want to shake up until the ISSUE of RACISM until it is taken seriously HERE and NOW.

[Kenneth ken]

82. great post

I do think trying to engage the poster as you did is worth some effort; that's debate. If a person is willing to listen and look at their actions from a different perspective, that's learning. But I think it is pointless to continue to try to engage a person who is unwilling to listen, so then it becomes time to refer the question to a third party, the moderators.

May you always keep your claws sharp to use them when necessary.

:hi: Tigress

[bruin303]

60. I strongly disagree with that last remark

about alerting the Mods. That's lame. "Let the Mods decide." No. You must decide for yourself. Maybe I misread you.

A major problem is that there is often no clear cut definition of what qualifies as racist and what does not. Granted, there is blatant racism out there that we can all agree is racist, but I don't think that form of racism is the biggest problem (it's just too rare). The big problem comes in these subtle forms of racism, where people tend to have "plausible deniability" for protecting their own self view that they are not racist.

The fact that you have people out there who think they can decide for us simply re-illustrates the problem. We each think our take on reality is some how "the right one" and that those who disagree are crazy, mean, or stupid. In this case, your certainty that this is racist is equally matched by the certainty of those who say it is not. To me, that means that this is an ambiguous case. The more ambiguity there is, the more our own biases come into play (both "good" and "bad" biases). It's a very perplexing issue; one that won't be resolved on DU for any foreseeable future.

[Tigress DEM]

64. Alerting the Mods isn't crying teacher, though...

I agree we must police ourselves, but if we get the mods involved, that way they - who probably have a good idea of who the freepers and flamers are - can keep track of what IS going on, even if they stand back and let us discuss it ourselves.

Racism can't be cured here. You are right, it is a complex issue. I think what the mods are for is when peoples tempers are getting the best of them and they will throw things out there that can defeat the purpose of the board.

I don't see the mods so much as policing racism on this board as preventing personal attacks and flames from wasting everyone's time.

[bruin303]

78. point taken.

[Kenneth ken]

81. my point was

that one can either argue forever about whether something is racist, and maybe or maybe not change the mind of the person they are arguing with;
because you are correct to see this topic as not clear cut, my opinion was to make one attempt to address it with the original poster, but then rather than arguing, defer to the mods by alerting.

Mods do not delete every post which is alerted on, but they do have a process for deciding whether to delete or not. So deferring to them, lets them act as referees. If the post gets deleted, then the original poster and the protesting poster can both have a sense, that yes it was out of line, satisfying for the protester, and perhaps would give the original poster cause to rethink whether it did cross a line.

On the other hand, if the post is not deleted after alerting, then the mods decided it was okay, and the original poster has no reason to rethink the post, but the protester may need to rethink their viewpoint.

Both the original poster and protest poster would have some degree of personal attachment to their position, best to pass it off to a neutral party rather than argue back and forth to no conclusion.

But if people want to argue, that's their choice, I find it tedious to continue to reitierate the same points over and over, and that is pretty much what happens. Debate is a different matter than argument.

[RagingInMiami]

53. "Walking the dog"

Who didn't laugh out loud at that?

[Tigress DEM]

56. ????

I must be really stupid because I don't have a clue what you are referring to.

I'm seeing the leash gag where the guy is walking the invisible dog or some sort of dance like the moonwalk and I just can't visualize what walking the dog is in any way funny, unless you saw me trying to walk my son's pitt bull and having to sit down in the snow to keep from being dragged for miles before he noticed I wasn't upright.

[RagingInMiami]

59. Someone near the video camera, maybe the guy filming, said

"walking the dog" when she was dragging that man around on the street.

[Tigress DEM]

65. Oh.

Why is it that we think that stuff is funny? Is it because of the juxtapositon of what is so absurd?

I can see the technical merit and maybe even the guy was able to laugh it off sometime later himself.

However, he is a human being - not a dog. So I didn't find it funny. I really didn't hear it because I wasn't seeing a joke, I was watching a terrible thing happening to someone.

I did hear one of the kids in the beat down video crying and trying to intervene while the adults and the police all ignored the problem.

To get back the point of lack of humor in putting the two videos together, the five year old girl was an angry, frightened kid - not an out of control adult going out of her way to beat someone down.

I'm agreeing with Tahitinut that the OP on #61 probably was just being insensitive and couldn't resist the punch line in the same way the guy in the video came up with "walking the dog" was.

Still people can make a racist remark without intending to act in a racist manner because there has been so much put out there by racists to make even simple metaphors turn into insults against someone's race.

I found out - in private, thank God - what "jungle bunny" meant in terms of being a racist remark. I thought I was inventing a term to describe my white boss out in the wild of Africa or the Amazon, wherever she had been on vacation.

Because whites sought to dehumanize blacks at every opportunity and seperated them to keep them from having intact families this was a big insult.

Jungle = wild black people, untamed, savages.
Bunny = sexually promiscious, less than human, stupid enough to eat.

[bruin303]

57. Go see the movie "crash"

My family and I really like it, and it generated a lot of discussion between us about race and racism. I saw the film in Los Angeles (which is also where the movie takes place), and the very diverse audience actually applauded at the end of the film. Not sure why people applaud to the screen, I guess it's to tell the other viewers that they liked it (or agree that they liked it).
Ebert gave it an A.

[Tigress DEM]

58. Have you ever seen "The Long Walk Home" ?

Sissy Spacek plays a Southern socialite who becomes gradually enlightened by the plight of her housekeeper, played by Whoopi Goldberg, as she struggles to raise her family amid the increasing turmoil, prejudice, and violence around her during the Montgomery Bus Boycot that jump started the civil rights movement in the '50s.

[bruin303]

61. Haven't seen that one..

but it sounds interesting. Part of the reason I mentioned Crash is because it is a very believable modern day portrayal of racial tensions in Los Angeles (maybe I also liked it cause it's in my home city). It's one of those movies where there are several plot threads that intertwine in various ways. It's all about how prejudice leads to expectations, and those expectations can sometimes have good and sometimes bad consequences.
I do love those civil rights era movies too, though.

[Tigress DEM]

68. BTW Welcome to DU!!

I lived in El Monte when I was a kid. Worked in LA for a time.

That sounds like a good flick too.

[Kerrytravelers]

71. Welcome to DU, bruin303...

...even if you are a Bruin.:P

Fight On!

:hi:

[Goldmund]

62. What would your reaction have been if the people in the video were white?

I'm not really decided on this issue. I can see where you're coming from, but I can also see where people who say "to call that racist is racist in itself" are coming from. I think it depends on what Atman's intention was.

[Tigress DEM]

66. OK, let's think it through.

First video:

Little five year old white girl is being "silly" so the teacher takes away her jelly beans without really talking to her about it and when the kid gets about it she starts herding the blond eyed, blue haired five year old around because the mom doesn't want the teachers "touching" her kid due to some past issues. A video is running and capturing all this. Is that suspicious in and of itself?

The VP gets involved and no one talks to the little girl why she is angry or gives her any way to really process her feellings and just follows the girl around telling her "No, that's not appropriate" and sit down.

The VP and the little white girl are off camera and supposedly the little girl breaks something that belongs to a classmate. We don't see this, but the little girl seems more surly afterward.

They are calling her mother and the mother says, "I can't leave until 3pm, I will get there as soon as I can." This isn't good enough for the teachers and the VP, they decide to call the police.

The little girl, who still hasn't been talked to on her level except to be told, "No, stop that," is still upset and is taking papers or pictures off a wall. (To get attention maybe?)

She mellows out and is moving a switch up and down for 2 - 4 minutes while the VP and someone off camera still don't directly address the little girl to try and help her work through her anger at having her jelly beans taken away from her. They instead talk over the girl's head and then the girl decides to go back to tearing things off the wall and onto the chair and the table in an obvious attempt to get attention.

Again there is a point where the little girl is quietly sitting in a chair just before the police come in. No one is talking to her. She has a fearful posture and seems to finally be done being mad about the jellybeans.

Can you imagine two police officers rushing right in to handcuff a 40-60 pound little white girl cowering in her chair, especially when they could ask a few questions, watch the video, gather evidence to support the claims that this quite little girl was actually out of control for the previous hour and that the only solution at this point is to put handcuffs on her and take her away?

I can't even get there, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it happened.



Then comes post #61 in the DU board.


*Instead of "beatdown" it's called "Proud Redneck Mom"

Subject: New video of 5-year-old's mom just released!

Here we see her mom "discussing" the incident with her father, and why he wasn't able to pick her up...

5-year-olds mom video*

http://www.funnyjunk.com/movies/26/Big+Momma+Beatdown


...

She's overweight, blond scragly hair, tight stretch pants and she is pushing a skinny white man around. It get's worse, he's getting beat and at first trying to be tough, but after a while he even cries out in pain and emotional hurt for being humiliated in front of all his neighbors, his little girl tries to get her mom to stop beating him, but mom tells her, "Don't go there right now."

The police drive by instead of help and the woman continues to beat the man until another man steps up and pulls him out of it.

Somewhere in here someone had a bright shining moment as a comedian referring to the man who was being dragged and beaten as a dog being walked.

Assuming you still think that was funny, with a white couple in the starring role, would you have found it offensive if someone posted it on a site discussing why on earth a 5 year old white girl wound up in handcuffs in Florida.

And remember, this isn't just any blog - this is the DU, where we know what kind of liars and cheaters there are in Florida politics and how unlike the rest of the nation we are aware of neocons trying to beat down the will of the people.

I would call that video "classism" and no, I wouldn't find it funny at all, in fact I think I would not have been the only person upset about including it at all.

[ultraist]

74. Racist stereotyping

Racist stereotyping is "generalized denigrating." (To borrow Kenneth Ken's term).

The video posted that was stated to be depicting the mother of the child who was handcuffed, was a typical racist stereotype of a Black woman.

As someone mentioned, racism is not always blatant name calling and infests our society in more insidious forms. Racist stereotypes may seem harmless at face value, but in fact, perpetuate negative attitudes that are tied to social violence.

[Dr Fate]

63. Are we talking about actual racist comments or RACIAL comments?

Are we talking David Duke or Mel Brooks/Richard Prior here?

[Tigress DEM]

67. Hey, Fate! Hawaii!

What we are talking about is injecting humor into a tragic situation and by using humor where it isn't appropriate seeing it become a racial slur.

Then we are also deciding what to do about it when it happens on DU to try to better walk the walk on supporting minority's rights and respecting their humanity instead of talking the talk and then jumping in like a neocon with a "hilarious video" and laughing our asses off at other people's pain.

[Dr Fate]

69. I'll have to watch the video and decide for myself then.

n/t

[Tigress DEM]

70. Try to find the full video of the 5 year old.

They have edited versions that only show her tantrum - for some reason the links to videos haven't been working now. Maybe archived.

Post #66 is what I remember from the full video framed for the question of what if it was a white girl.

So if you get a video that has those pieces, you've found the full video.

[Tigress DEM]

73. I also goofed in posting from the old post.

I lost the video feed that got me ballistic.

I'll try to put it in #66

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. I supported the school's decision to call the cops

in this situation. And I am NOT a racist.

I teach in an 'inner city' school. Most of my co-workers, especially the black teachers, also felt the school did the right thing.

This was NOT a racial issue. It was about a little girl out of control, most likely due to poor parenting.

Yes, I watched all the videos. I found it interesting that Mom's lawyer edited them to exclude the beginning of the girl's tantrum and what was happening in the classroom BEFORE she started acting out. If what the teacher did or said was all that bad, why is that edited out of the video released to the public?

[Tomee450]

83. I thought many of the

comments about that child were definitely racist. Such comments would not have been made about a white child. Even though it was pointed out many times that such behavior in a five year old was not uncommon, some individuals continued to ignore that fact and denigrated both mother and child. There were no facts to support the contention that the mother was a bad parent. I guess some people just believe that a black person is probably incapable of being a good parent. I found it hard to understand the basis on which that conclusion( bad parent) was based other than on stereotypes since nothing at all was known about the mother's parenting skills. The child was no more out of control than many other children and we never hear of them being handcuffed.

On this forum there are a few people who are always ready to see African Americans, even their children in a negative light. No thought was given to the fact that this child may have had some kind of a personal problem. The obvious incompetence of the teachers was denied. No, this little five year old child in the minds of some, was just "an out of control child" in other words, a bad black child.

My friend commented on a reality show she saw the the other night. It was about a British nanny coming to the home of parents to assist them in handling their children's behavior problem. All of the children were white and they behaved no different than the African American child that was handcuffed. They had tantrums, threw objects around, completely disobeyed their parents. No one would ever have suggested that those children be handcuffed. There are some people on this forum who are always willing to support the most despicable mistreatment of African Americans, treatment they would be appalled if given to people not of color. That is racist, in my opinion.

African Americans are still talking about the handcuffing of that five year old child. I know it is something that I will always remember. It is just beyond belief that African American parents now have to fear that their children, even those as young as five, maybe victims of the police if they misbehave.

[Tomee450]

84. I find it hard

to believe that African Americans would support the handcuffing of a five year old child. I have not talked to one black person, not one, who hasn't been outraged over the treatment of that toddler by school personnel and the police. In fact, some people were getting so upset when seeing the tape, they started turning the channel when it came on. And it really bothers me that someone who would support this action taken against a young black child, is teaching at an inner city school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. I don't think this issue is divided by race

I think it's teachers vs the rest of DU. There were many teachers here who agree with me and support how the school handled the situation. The mother really left them no choice.

[Tomee450]

89. Not one of my

black friends who are teachers agreed with the way that child was treated. They were absolutely appalled. Not one African American to whom I have spoken has expressed support for the actions taken against a frightened, five year old toddler. The tape sickened them. The factor that determined her treatment was race. That is often the case in situations involving African Americans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. Obviously,

we have had very different experiences.

[Tomee450]

91. Indeed!!

I suspect most white people would recoil in horror at seeing a white five year old in handcuffs. African Americans feel no differently when seeing the picture of a frightened, five year old black child being mistreated by the police. If such action is warranted, why has it not been done to other children? It's the usual,an action unheard of when dealing with other groups, is used against African Americans and some people support the injustice.

Some of the teachers on this forum appear to be so hostile to children. One wonders why they chose the teaching profession as a career. One also wonders why they just don't resign so they won't have to be around those undisciplined children for whom they seem to have such disdain.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. And we teachers

would love to see any of you who criticize us spend just one day in our shoes. JUST ONE DAY.

We are not hostile to this little girl. I believe the sentiment from the teachers and other school professionals here was concern that the mother was held blameless. This was clearly a problem that arose due to poor parenting. The vast majority of 5 year olds enter kindergarten well past the tantrum stage. But this mother not only failed to teach her daughter not to throw a tantrum but also failed to seek professional help for a child with a serious behavior problem. So we have a little girl who threw a tantrum and her mother not only instructed the school to never touch her child, but also refused to come to school to help control her daughter when she had a tantrum. Her daughter then disrupted the education of hundreds of students in her school and has received more than enough publicity to last a lifetime. The mother is now a wealthy woman thanks to A Current Affair. And the school is blamed???

Like I said, come spend a day in my shoes, watch a 5 year old throw a tantrum and make a split second decision (based on years of training and experience) that is questioned by every non educator who read about it in the newspaper. THEN we can have a fair and balanced discussion.

[undergroundpanther]

80. I have seen

Not only racism here..I see,slights on all sorts of people also..Some posters here apparently get entertainment by "ragging" on people.. They think it's "funny" but it stops being funny when posters get hurt, get sick of it,and leave GD or the lounge and go post in other side forums or quietly leave DU altogether.

Eventually it's going to dawn on more people to ask the question how far is DU going to "tolerate" it's more bully loudmouth rude elements that seem to Be 'the life of the party'? How far should people go in being rude,callous ignorant or even racist the name of "entertainment" and "humor"?

I mean do we HAVE to be smart asses to people who are not our political enemies? Isn't this kinda rudeness a way to ALIENATE Democratic people just as easy as we alienate the freeps who deserve it?

I think we Dem's have enough trouble finding a common ground together to deal with the re thugs consistently. Why alienate each other? Dem's are diverse people,no one should be bashed here for being what they are and being straight up about it..


This insulting"entertainment" stops being funny when someone says it isn't funny to them.What might be hilarious to you might be hurting THEM and if you are insensitive you will not care or even notice you hurt someone.. . It's about basic decency folks. ..We don't need a few popular but rude people on Du who think they are funny, who egg people on in the fray ..ragging on DU people because they'can'..People should not feel so targeted to the point they don't even want to post in GD or the lounge.

It isn't only this racism here making some DUers feel bad..It's also insults twords Disabled people ,fat people,Suburbanites, Christians,even gays,and body mods..This bullying sarcastic snideness posing as humor ,that is what that needs to be checked ..If it goes on without confrontation eventually the "culture" of DU will learn to "tolerate" it and it will be the DU cultural atmosphere.And I for one do not find an insensitive ragging atmosphere worth belonging to..And Not only me,but other good people will be put off,excluded,feel like that can't really say what's on their mind or say what they feel or admit who they are for fear of ridicule or being made a funny target for the ignorant ,and endure ad ho-minim attacks by people who do not care to hear a POV they have already discounted in their minds(NOT including the republicans), It makes people really feel alienated..

Do we want to drive decent democrats with good hearts who are our political allies away from DU because some people here get off on"ragging people"? Do we want that?

When does "ragging..become bullying?

I think ragging becomes bullying when someone is hurt or humiliated by it and nobody hears them when they say it hurts or that it is wrong,and nobody gives a shit..When any Du'er feels discounted enough to leave the group,abandons the thread and disengages from DU..and quietly disappears.It's gone too far.

This kind of shit should not happen here.

And it won't happen anymore if the culture of DU values consideration ,decency and respect for fellow Duers bodies,lifestyles and identities as worthy allies more than"fun at someone else's another Du'ers expense.Respect and dignity is a two way thing.
People who disrespect DUers for fun disrespect DU and make it a place sensitive people don't want to go to..
When Du'ers rag on fat people, women,or gays,(recently I heard about a thread in the lounge making fun of Lesbians I didn't click on it because I did not want to feel alienated..I was already alienated from another thread there..) Du begins to sound just like a liberal Rush Limbaugh ..the only difference is in the targets ragged on.


A bully is a bully is a bully and there is no excuses for bullying and verbal abuse if we are truly as liberal as we want to want people to assume we are..

I think it's time we became better quality people than the republicans are who have turned bullying into a party platform and try to make it culturally acceptable. Du'ers can pick better targets to "rag on" than our own members and people who are diverse.WE have the entire republican party,ragging us, the corporatocracy,the homophobic,the woman haters, bullies,pundits on RW TV,the corrupt and the theocracy nuts wanting to take our rights and humanity away..THey are the enemies of freedom..Not sensitivity decency and telling a bully to put a sock in it because he hurts people for sport.

The Republican bullies are the ones who really do make our lives harder,not some fat guy posting here,or some lesbian or a cat guy,some person with depression, some black,white,Asian Hispanic,etc.etc. person,a person who believes in a particular god(s)..or godess(es)..or some dude pointing out the problems of the right to die position that rightfully upset the disability community.. We need to respect each others DIFFERENT voices,and try not to hurt each other when we disagree,feel threatened, or are ignorant or just unaware. It's about understanding each others boundaries,emotions, differences and dreams as valid..respect of ,community and common decency..that kind of acceptance creates a strong wonderful warm culture just as much as a popular person making fun alienating people can destroy one like that.

[sweetheart]

85. All talk and no action makes jack a dull boy

I started a thread earlier today on the "actions" of ending the endemic
results of racism TODAY, THIS WEEK... but nobody gives a toss.
They'd rather talk themselves blue, make monuments and bullshit
until the cows come home.

It seems the new americana represents appearance over substance, and
for all the political correctness of it all, no real ground is gained.

[Eloriel]

92. Just one

:kick:

[Shell Beau]

94. Maybe I just don't get it!

:shrug: However, I don't think that the majority of people here ever intend to be racist. Maybe ignorance is to blame for the times it happens. Maybe I will never fully understand what is racist since I don't deal with it on a day to day basis if ever, even. The only way to help is to try to educate people on why it feels racist to you. They may not agree, but they should respect your feelings. Some people feel the race card is played too much which actually hurts these type of situations rather than help them, but you have every right to feel the way you do, but it doesn't mean that everyone will see your point. Maybe it is something that will never be fully understood, although I certainly hope that is not the case. :)