Buchannan on Imus: WW2 not worth the effort..

[nibbana]

Sack o shit...shame on Imus and MSNBC...

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usbuch124255261may12,0,3075842,print.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-headlines

[htuttle]

1. Well, we've known Pat was a Nazi for a long time, right?

He usually just hides it better.

[Brooklyn Michael]

2. Ho-ly Shit

:wow:

[Hobarticus]

3. From 'allying with Soviets led to tyranny' to 'not worth fighting'...

Jesus, these guys are insane.

There's a very good reason why Buchanan is NOT in public service.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. Wow! Guess all those Jews who voted for him in Florida in 2000 are really

pissed now!
What a total schmuck he is. Maybe he is looking for a cabinet position in Jeb Bush's administration.

[AlCzervik]

5. After reading that it now makes perfect sense why Jews in Florida voted

for him. :sarcasm:

[BlueEyedSon]

6. F*ckin Idiot. So how does he feel about 'nam and 'raq???

[underpants]

7. Pat used "America First" as a campaign slogan

"America First" originally was a coservative/isolationist group that protested US involvement in WW2 before and AFTER Pearl Harbor (to a much more limited extent than before). It turned out that they were being "used" ;-) as a cover for German and Japanese spies in the US. "America First" actually got at least one person elected to Congress and his office was indeed used by at least one German agent...his congressional office.

Joe Conason wrote about it in "Big Lies" that is where I know this from. It is hard to find anything on it on the web (mostly swallowed up by Buchanan's "AMercia First") but I will look again.

Just remember that CONSERVATIVES protested WW2, keep that one in your back pocket when they pipe up about their patriotism and such.

[underpants]

12. LINK-here you go-Lindburgh was in "America First" too

http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/usiso-is.html



American First Committee
Americans concerned about the Roosevelt Administration's weakening of the Neutrality Acts to support the Allies formed The America First Committee (AFC) in September 1940. Some of the organizer were Robert E. Wood, John T. Flynn and Charles A. Lindbergh. They organized 450 local chapters and claimed more than 0.8 million members. Important Americans including Congressmen soon spoke up to support the AFC. Some even had participated in the fight against American participation in the Laeague of Nations. Important supporters included Burton K. Wheeler, Hugh Johnson, Robert LaFollette Jr., Hamilton Fish, and Gerald Nye. The AFC was the single most important voice for isolationism in America. The AFC promoted the idea that the United States should build an impregnable defense so that no foreign country would dare attack America. They insisted that American democracy could only be preserved by avoiding involvement in a European War. They thought that aid to other countries weakened America's own defense. The AFC's publicity campaign was orchestrated by John T. Flynn. One advertisement read: "The Last War Brought: Communism to Russia, Fascism to Italy, Nazism to Germany. What Will Another War Bring To America?" Father Charles Coughlin, one of the most important radio commentators of the 1930s, in April 1941 begamn to endorse the AFC in his broadcasts and publication Social Justice. Couglin was another AFC proponent whose message included anti-Semitism. Senators including Gerald Nye, Burton K. Wheeler, Hugh Johnson, Robert LaFollette Jr., Henrik Shipstead, Homer T. Bone, James B. Clark, William Langer, and Arthur Capper attacked Lend Lease. Americas engaged in a intense debate as to whether aid shoulkd be given to Britain and risk war with Grmany. Rge debate engulfed the entire nation. Presiden't Rooevelt with a masterful Fire Side Chat, helped sell Lend Lease to the American people. In many ways it was NAZI barbarity that moved American public opinion. Americanns saw the Luftaffe pond London in the movie newsreels and listened to Edward R. Murrow's broadcasts and gradually came to agree with the President that the NAZIs could not be dealt with in any way but force and that America itself was threatned. In the end, the Senate passed Lend Lease by 60 votes to 31. This was thge key vote as Britain ws approaching the point that it no longer had the financial resources to purchase war materials in America. The AFC actively opposed the Administration's efforts to aid Britain throughout 1940 and 41.

[MADem]

21. Ironically, Lindbergh was a real GOP style "family values" type as well

He had a German mistress with whom he had THREE children!!! Apparently, Lucky Lindy got lucky in the Fatherland, too. Such stunning hypocrisy!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3249472.stm

The three children were born between 1958 and 1967 and were listed in official records as "father unknown".

Astrid Bouteuil, now 43, said they remembered Mr Lindbergh as a mystery visitor who would turn up once or twice a year, but it was only after their father died that they learned his identity.

They confronted their mother with a bundle of letters they had found which Mr Lindbergh had written to her.

Ms Bouteuil said her mother had admitted that Mr Lindbergh was their father, but asked them not to disclose the fact while she was still alive.

[LostinVA]

30. The US Government was so suspicious of Lindbergh

That he was not allowed to have a military commission/role during the War. I've had arguments with people on here before who just insist Lindy was this great hero. No, he wasn't. He made a speech basically blaming Jews for their own ills, gave many other speeches praising the Nazi War Machine, and loved Hitler's Germany so much he wanted to live there. His own daughter stated in her book that she was appalled when she became an adult and read her father's private writings and discovered he was anti-Semitic and Pro-Nazi. It's pretty cut and dried.

It's one thing being an isolationist, and another being a booster for the Nazis.

[geek tragedy]

8. Disgusting turdball.

Seriously, he shouldn't be let in front of any TV camera.

[onehandle]

9. This is the Republican Party. nt

[KC21304]

10. The only evil worth fighting is Godless Communism

don't you know ?

[Seabiscuit]

47. Hmmm... if Saddam had modeled himself after Hitler instead of Stalin,

would Dubya still have invaded Iraq?

[reality based]

11. Uh, Pat, Hitler declared war on us after Pearl Harbor

We really didn't have a choice. Benedict Arnold has a new buddy.

[Hobarticus]

15. Shhh....don't disturb the lunatic with facts...

Hasn't stopped any of those right-wing kooks yet.

[AlGore-08.com]

17. Pat just realizes that we would have been better off SURRENDERING

After all, the Nazi war machine was invincible. Everybody knows that.

Thank God we all live in Bizarro America, huh?

[tmooses]

13. Every so often you get a true glimpse of the Repubs-before they

get their make-up on or when a door is left open.

[Marnieworld]

14. Is he campaigning for "Jews for Buchanan" already?

How ambitious! :sarcasm:

[indepat]

16. WWII not worth it? Surely Hitler and Tojo would have stopped after

having achieved limited objectives and would never have scurrilously used atomic weapons had they been first to develop such, would never have leveraged their atomic advantage in a quest to rule the world.

[w4rma]

18. I'll bet he thinks that Vietnam was, though. (nt)

[Moderator]

19. Nibbana, please edit your subject line to include published title

"WWII comments blasted"

Thank you

[Julius Civitatus]

20. The political climate allows these bastards to say these things

A few years ago even hinting this point of view would have been political suicide.

Unfortunately we are now in such a corrosive political climate, pushed so far to the right that any wingnut can come out of their pro-genocidal closet, say the most outrageous (even traitorous) things and get away with it. Heck! They even make the cover of Time magazine (I'm talking about the Coultergeist).

I mean, when you even have the president of the USA questioning the value of Yalta and second guessing the tremendous efforts of Roosevelt and the WWII generation, you know we are way deep in an alternative universe. Bush and his rove-bots are IRRESPONSIBLE for making this type of historical revisionism acceptable.

[Justitia]

50. Amen. I am continually SHOCKED at what these monsters say publicly

I always knew these sickos felt this way, but as cynical and jaded as I am naturally, I still am absolutely amazed that they say this stuff breezily, out in the open, with no fear whatsoever of the ramifications.

[kenny blankenship]

22. was he being serious, or-- ?

trying to mock the majority of Americans who have concluded that Iraq is not worth it?

[xxqqqzme]

23. he has said this B4.

Some years ago he said that Russia could have taken the nazi's, they really didn't need us. US should've stayed home. I got in an argument w/ my then boyfriend who agreed w/ him.

[ikri]

44. interesting theory

If Russia had gone it alone against the Nazis, does anyone really believe that once they'd reached Berlin they'd have declared victory & gone home?

Or is it far more likely that Uncle Joe would have looked at western Europe with glee.

Without the US in WW2, the USSR would have taken over the whole of Europe, most if not all of Africa, The Middle East would have been their's too and probably most of the Far East and Japan too.

India might have done OK, but China would have probably taken a chance there.

Suddenly, the USSR would have had the manufacturing base of Western Europe and the Oil reserves of the Middle East, North Sea and Western Africa. The US would have had few friends, few export markets and very little money.

The USSR would still be around today, the US might not have been.

[NYC2099]

71. Stalin advancing....

ikri - you are probably correct that Stalin would not have stopped at Berlin. Would he have been too decimated to continue with the rest of Europe? Would the US citizens then rally and finally enter the conflict since now it wasn't evil vs. evil (hitler & stalin) but stalin vs. freedom? But you are probably right that russia would do all it could to expand in the decades after.

[NYC2099]

24. Buchanan made some interesting points though.

What was the message of WW2? What was the result of WW2? What would have happened if we never entered the European conflict (and centered on Japan)?

I see no reason why we can't discuss these questions the same as we should be able to discuss the right/wrongs regarding any war/confilt.

[Julius Civitatus]

25. We never "entered" WWII - Germany and Japan declared war on us!

FYI.

So what "good" do you think could have come from not "entering" WWII in Europe and leave the allies on their own to face Nazi Germany?

Why would you think this would have been positive?

[NYC2099]

28. more positive???

War is NEVER positive. Whether in Europe or the middle east.

but maybe 'more positive' in WW2 would have been the 2 worst dictator murderers in the history of mankind (Stalin & Hitler) spending a few more years killing each other and having no americans dead. Would the result been much more different???? Scary thought. Who would have won between the two? We would have saved a few western european countries but the east would still be under a murderous dictator.

[LostinVA]

36. I honestly cannot believe you are serious

No one on this board advocates war. NO ONE. Most of us are adamantly anti-war. But there is a difference in invading Iraq and in protecting your fellow humans from being frigging systematically slaughtered in the millions. Well, hey, who cares if all of Eastern and Western Europe is killed and enslaved,a s long as we Americans are safe.

Stalin and Hitler wouldn't have finished one another off. Get real. They would have made agreements and treaties and held an easy truce, with probably occasional border skirmishes.

I tell you what, you ask my two grandfathers what they fought WW II for, and they'll tell you and shut you the hell up. One landed at Normandy Beach and suffered through the Bulge. He gave away his health and youth and has never regretted what he did. HE'S the one that has a right to criticize our involvement, not you or that shirker Buchanan.

Go somewhere else and play your little games.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julius Civitatus]

37. Yeah right... (are you for real?)

Which would have meant the entire continent of Europe would have been overtaken by either one of these dictators (take your pick, Hitler or Stalin), and sooner or later we would have had to face them either way.

FYI, Hitler's plans included invading the USA and enslaving its population. Seriously, look it up.

There are wars, and there are wars. Some wars are necessary. Some aren't. WWII was a necessary war to fight or we all would have been subjected under the jackboot of an imperialist dictatorship (once again, take your pick, Hitler or Stalin). Wars like the invasion of Iraq are not necessary wars, but rather futile shows of power that echo a neoconservative mindset. WWII, as you see, was a turning point in history and the US intervention made a huge difference.

But I guess that, according to you or good ol' Pat, we should have remained on the sidelines and let Hitler and Stalin figure out...

PS: What LostinVA said above. I couldn't have said it better.

[LostinVA]

40. Thank you, Julius. n/t

[Julius Civitatus]

42. You're welcome

:hi:

[NYC2099]

41. hitlers plans....

You are correct that Hitler planned on eventually invading the US. You know your history!

But I agree with EVERYONE here that is was MORALLY RIGHT to go after Hitler (and Stalin too) but if it was so morally correct.....why didn't we go into Europe before December of 1941???? One of the reasons was that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. Who do you choose in that conflict??? Most were happy just to have those two battle it out.

[LostinVA]

46. I said that in this thread n/t

[Seabiscuit]

49. But that's not all Hitler/Stalin or Hirohito would have done.

Hitler and Hirohito had plans to invade the USA even before we entered the war.

[LostinVA]

27. The message was that good prevailed -- there IS no discussion

This really was a war about good vs. evil. the Nazis were evil, or did you not ever learn that? No, I am really not being snide, I'm asking. The result of WW II is that the Nazis were destroyed, as was Imperial Japan, and god knows how many civilian lives were saved. If we had never entered WWII, pretty much every Jew is Europe would have been killed, every other non-German civilian would have been subjugated in some way, and I believe that ultimately Britain and Ireland would have been taken over.

The USSR could not have defeated the Nazis, although they would have kept them out of the Baltic States and the USSR. I expect an easy truce would have happened between Uncle Joe and Hitler. As bad as the Iron Curtain was, this scenario would have been much worse. And, in Asia, there would have been 10,000 Nankings.

And, there is NO discussion if what we did was the morally right thing in WWII. None. The US Governmwnt should be ashamed we didn't get involved until Pearl Harbor. Millions of people would have probably lived if we had.

I honestly can't believe you're asking this in seriousness. This was not Vietnam or Iraq.

[NYC2099]

34. Obviously the good ( USA!!!!) prevailed over communism & natizism

I liked your opinion of what would have happened if we never entered the war.

But is your conclusion that if we get rid of a murdering dictator that it is always correct. Saddam was evil (not on the hitler level) but evil nevertheless. So why is it wrong to go after people that kill over a 500,000 people. Is there a magic number?

And talk to people behind the iron curtain before you assume it would be better to be ruled by Stalin than Hitler. BOTH killed and hated the jews that lived in Eastern Europe.

[LostinVA]

39. Then Allies were the good in this war, and you KNOW it

Were the Nazis good? Of course not! And Stalin wasn't good, I never said he was, but the Allies needed him to help defeat the Nazis.

When the hell have I ever said Saddam was good? Huh? Huh?Huh? But no, we shouldn't have invaded Iraq. It was "presumptive" strike. That is illegal under international law, because that is what the NAZIS did. They were not defending themselves or anyone else. And for as bad as Saddam was, he never, ever systematically murdered people. We should have went into Rwanda, and should go into Darfur. Stopping genocide and slaughter is a really good thing.

Why, gosh, I didn't know Stalin killed all of those people, what a surprise... he also murdered Ukrainians by causing a famine. The West should have done something.

And, you don't know me, do you? My best friend grew up in Eastern Germany, and whose whole family is alive. And my best friend as a child had a grandmother who had a tattoo on her arm,and who had over 100 family members murdered, and came to the United States by herself, because all of her family was dead. Does that mean the Iron Curtain was good? No, of course not. But you can't use one to deny us going into WW II.

[NYC2099]

52. what is your point?

Your grandmother was screwed since she lived in Eastern Europe & no one cared about Eastern Europe. Not the allies. Since all jews and any other dissenters were killed after 1945 under Stalin.

you mentioned stopping genocide & slaughter is a good thing & we should have went into Rwanda & Darfur. You would get no arguement from me since we are the policemen of the world. But saddam also murdered people and caused genocide against the curds. If you agree that we should help against innocent people in those other places, you also have to be for helping the minorities in Iraq. Prejudice is not an option.

[Julius Civitatus]

58. Not right

Just saying that one of your points is not correct:

1- Stalin was a bastard against dissidents, and many of these were Jews indeed. But unlike Hitler, Stalin did not have a specific policy of extermination of Jews. Stalin killed many, many people, but not for the same reasons as Hitler did.

2- Not all Jews in eastern Europe were wiped out by Stalin, as you claim. That is not factual, and as a matter of fact, as of today there are many Jewish communities still in Eastern Europe. Truth is many of these have also moved to Israel.

3- Many of the crimes against the Jews in Eastern Europe were the continuation of the ages-old anti-semitism that viciously plagued that region. And these progroms happened before and after WWII. Furthermore, the anti-semitism sentiment is still alive to this day in places like Poland.

[LostinVA]

59. Why are you talking about my grandmother?

I haven't mentioned her once. My fam,ily is from Italy and Ireland, and all way before WWII.

Firstly, I was talking about genocide, not mistreating and killing political dissidents. That is absolutely not a good thing, but if we invaded every country doing that, we would be invading most of the countries in the world, including Britain and the US.

Who are you insulting me and making personal attacks? Calling me prejudice and a fascist. Maybe you are projecting, I don't know.

You are being too sim;istic about Eastern Europe under Stalin. Tell me, what was the West going to do? Start a war with the USSR, after so many Western Europeans had been killed, and so much of the infrastructure destroyed? Would the citizens of the United States had said, okay, let's do that! No. As horrible as life could be under the USSR, it was not genocide, excvet for what Stalin did to the kulaks and the Ukrainians.

Next you'll be condemning FDR and Yalta.

[yellowcanine]

31. "What would have happened" is Germany and the U.S,S.R. would

have fought to a stalemate and they would have divided up Europe after the war. Britain would have become a German vassal state, as would have Norway, Sweden, Denmark, France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy.

[LostinVA]

48. Exactly, my Yellowdog friend n/t

[NYC2099]

55. So?

Eventually they would have rose up and fought for their independence like Eastern Europe did.

[LostinVA]

64. Eastern Europe didn't fight for their freedom literally, they won it

When they tried, such as Hungry, they were defeated against the Soviet war machine. They gained their freedom through attrition and the collapse of the Soviet Union. There were many, many brave people in Eastern Europe who lost their lives and their freedom in this struggle. But, this would never have happened in the Third Reich, unless it came from within Germany. The vassal states would have been destroyed, very much like the Nazis were doing to Poland and Holland. There were resisters who were very brave and caused trouble to the Nazis, but they never would have been overthrown. The ovens worked too well. The camps were too big. There were too many people too willing to embrace the Nazis -- the Arrow Cross, etc.

But hey, maybe you and Pat can get together and have a beer and discuss this, eh>?

[zipplewrath]

54. Long answers

"What was the message of WW2?"

It was many. 1)Making the peace is as important as making the war. WWII was a continuation of WWI and occurred because the League of Nations didn't work and the Treaty permanently punished the german people.

2) It's better to act early than to be isolationist. Hitler may have been stopped or delayed if earlier action had been taken.

3) Wars just begat more wars. We defeated germany while expanding the USSR.

"What was the result of WW2?"

The end of facism in europe. The beginning of the cold war. The creation of the UN and NATO. The final rise to superpower status of the US. The end of war as a form of international relations between western european countries.

"What would have happened if we never entered the European conflict (and centered on Japan)?"

Broad question. It depends greatly upon how you plan on
altering history. Does Germany declare war on the US? What is the nature of Canadian/US relations in such a situation? Do we help the USSR in any way? Do we keep "lend lease"? That's a big question. And then you have to discuss how the war goes and what does europe
look like? Is there a Marshall Plan? How about the GI bill?
You start changing history and you've got alot to change.

[NYC2099]

70. zipplewrath - most complete answer yet!!!

some comments :

2) 'It's better to act early than to be isolationist' Isn't that what bushie says about iraq? There are times to be an isolationist but the hard part is deciding when. I find it amazing that 90% of Americans (before pearl harbor) wanted to keep us out of the war.

3) all of your points are here arer true. One result is it good that we became a superpower? Sometimes I think yes, sometimes no.

And your final conclusion is mine as well. There are SO many other points to consider and I am sure tons of books are devoted to the subject. The 2nd half of the 20th century would be very different. Its just interesting to think of the different possibilities and results.

[Fleshdancer]

26. I actually read that disgusting editorial he wrote

Not one mention of the Holocaust. asshole.

[NYC2099]

29. remember - Stalin murdered many jews after the war in the east.

Any that were left in the east AND in Russia were gone in the following years after the war.

[Julius Civitatus]

56. That is not correct

Just pointing that is not correct, in two different levels:

1- Stalin was a bastard against dissidents, and many of these were Jews indeed. But unlike Hitler, Stalin did not have a specific policy of extermination of Jews. Stalin killed a lot of people, but not for the same reasons as Hitler did.

2- Not all Jews in eastern Europe were wiped out by Stalin. That is not factual, and as a matter of fact, as of today there are many Jewish communities still in Eastern Europe. Truth is many of these have also moved to Israel.

[NYC2099]

61. but overall Stalin killed more people than hitler did

Stalin hated jews just at much as Hitler but you are correct he did not have a specific policy of extermination.

Not sure of this one but the jewish population in west germany was much better & prosporous than in east germany. There were many stories of jews in east germany that got out in the following years after WW2 and mentioned that life being a jew in the east. (But of course if you are comparing it against a concentration camp....)

[Julius Civitatus]

63. No sh!t, Sherlock!

You say:

the jewish population in west germany was much better & prosporous than in east germany

Let me break to you, but life for EVERYBODY in west germany was much better & prosperous than in east germany.

I may be wrong...
:sarcasm:

[NYC2099]

53. we didn't enter ww2 because of the holocaust

It wasn't even known about in the general population of the US (or even in germany) until after the war

[chaumont58]

32. Pat also thought AIDS was God's retribution for the Gay Lifestyle

From my memory(not always perfect): in the '92 campaign, Pat ran on an America First campaign. A reporter discovered Pat drove a Mercedes. Pat then sold the Mercedes and bought a Cadillac.
My prediction for Pat's future is that it will only get better. A demented Ann Coulter continues to prosper. So will Pat. In the incestuous world of beltway pundits, you need not be smart. You only need to go to the right dinner parties.

[ticapnews]

33. Ed Koch raises a valid point...

Why do we legitimize these blowhards by agreeing to be on the air with them? Democratic leaders should go to Russert, Matthews and the hosts of the other talking head shows and tell them they won't appear with idiots like Coulter, Buchannan etc and share the stage with them. If they want Democrats on their shows they can give us equal time after the GOP trashcan has finished spouting or they can forget about having Democratic leaders on their shows. Period.

You can't debate these people. I've tried. It's impossible to argue the facts with someone who doesn't care what the facts are. For example, when debating Iraq with some boneheads at work, they still insist we found WMD on the ground. The fact that it wasn't in the MSM (except apparently on Faux) was part of a coverup by the librul media. I swear that if Dan Quayle made his famous "potatoe" mistake today Brit Hume would praise him for being open to new alternatives, Bill O'Reilly would scold people for pointing out his mistake and Coulter would write a book blasting treasonous liberal teachers for teaching students that there was no "e" at the end of the word.

As for what Buchannan said, what do you expect? As Imus pointed out years ago, he lost a relative at a concentration camp. His uncle fell out of a watchtower...

(rimshot)

Or not.

[sadiesworld]

35. Odd.

As the chaos in Iraq threatens to become front page news, the best known conservative opponent of the Iraq War volunteers that he really can't get anything right when it comes to wars for freedom and democracy.

:shrug:

[Seabiscuit]

43. WTF has Buchanan been injecting himself with?

Thorazine???

:wtf:

[gauguin57]

51. He's lost what little was left of his mind.

A lifetime of listening to Bay's shrieking would do it.

But this sounds like the effects of syphillis to me.

[NYC2099]

57. Lots of talk about entering WW2 because of the evil of Hitler

What if the evil dictator of North Korea attacked South Korea? Should we enter the conflict? What if no one else joined us?

[NYC2099]

62. I personally do not think so.

[mmonk]

60. Swoooosh!

credibility vacuum.

[LostinVA]

66. I know -- he's answering his own questions n/t

[entanglement]

65. Knew he was an isolationist, but this goes a bit too far n/t

[kcwayne]

67. Molly Ivin's comments on Pat's Primary 1992 speech (rant)

about the culture wars "It sounded so much more eloquent in the original German"

[underpants]

69. That speech made me a non-Republican

and eventually a Dem. THAT speech so scared the living hell out of me as I watched it in my Army barracks in Germany. Jesse Jackson's "That's not America" later that summer finished the job and I was permenantly a Dem.

[PlanetBev]

68. I read the article and laughed at Ed Koch's comments

This is the same traitorous hypocrite who supported Bush and laid down with these Republican dogs at the convention. Now he's offended?

Sorry Ed, you bought the package and Buchanan is part of it.