Help! I need to rebut a right winger on health care here vs. Canada

[CTyankee]

and on universal, government funded health care in general.

She says

1)The U.S. has the best health care in the world.

2)The research that made most advances in medicine happened in the U.S. because we do not have socialized medicine.

3)Critically needed health care is rationed in countries with socialized medical care.

4)Nobody is denied free health care in the U.S. if they are poor and need it, including poor children who can get free health care from state programs (but their families are usually the cause of their bad health because of their stupidity, ignorance,laziness and their own bad health habits like eating junk food and spending money on $100 sneakers).

5)Medicare is going bust because it is a government run program.

I know these points are not true but if there is something I can just hand her and say, "Here's the truth" that would be great.:banghead:

[tuvor]

1. Make it easy on yourself.

Get her to back up her claims with some proof. And tell her you can't believe someone who won't.

ON EDIT: You could probaly show her the truth, but in my experience, she'll probably tell you that your sources are wrong. :eyes:

[CTyankee]

3. She'll probably give me something

like an article from National Review, or some such. It's frustrating to hear people with normal intelligence who really believe this nonsense.

I did try to rebut her by saying my information on many of her points was very different from what she was saying. But I could tell she was pretty set on her beliefs.

[Deep13]

2. Absotively wrong!

"1)The U.S. has the best health care in the world."

Not necessarily. Doctors spend less and less time with their patients and HMOs want to get them out the door as soon as possible. Patients often get "treatment lite". This is a sweeping statement and does not apply to everyone, but it happens alot. Also, it is advertising that is driving the development of drugs and pressuring docs. to use them. Most importantly, we only have good health care if you can afford it.

"2)The research that made most advances in medicine happened in the U.S. because we do not have socialized medicine."

It is because we have lots of money and a tradition of research and problem solving. Much of the support system for research comes directly from the Federal government which invests a lot in medical research. That research is now being given a back seat to superstition.

"3)Critically needed health care is rationed in countries with socialized medical care."

Which country does she mean? Care, critical and otherwise is rationed here based on wealth. There are always priorities to be divised and management decisions to be made. They ought to make those decisions on medical criteria, not social status.

"4)Nobody is denied free health care in the U.S. if they are poor and need it, including poor children who can get free health care from state programs (but their families are usually the cause of their bad health because of their stupidity, ignorance,laziness and their own bad health habits like eating junk food and spending money on $100 sneakers)."

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. This is just a lie, plain and simple. Poor people are screwed when it comes to health care. Any igonance and laziness on the part of the poor is in response to a culture, especially a corporate culture, that encourages it. In other words, many (not all) don't know how to get away from bad habits because no one ever told them. On the other hand, commerical culture constantly brainwashes people into buying things they don't need and are often destructive. Further, the idea that someone can be properly punished for being lazy and stupid by being deprived of health care is absolutely reprehensible.

"5)Medicare is going bust because it is a government run program."

No, it is because the management refuses to address the problem. That would be hard. (BTW, it's hard being president.) Instead, we have invented a crisis in social security that can only be solved by screwing retirees and bankrupting the treasury (more than it presently is.)

[FloridaPat]

4. Half of all bankruptcies are because of health bills. Lot sof people

die each year because they are denied free health care. Hospitals turn them away or send them to the hospitals that work with the poor. And when you get $100,000 hospital bills, everyone is poor.

[Imagine My Surprise]

5. While she's checking HER facts, you might share with her...

from the Harvard Public Health Review December 10, 2004:

For the first time in 40 years, the infant mortality rate in the U.S. has increased, with seven out of every 1,000 children born in America dying within their first year of life, according to the annual report "America’s Health: State Health Rankings," issued by the United Health Foundation, together with the American Public Health Association (APHA) and Partnership for Prevention. The report, available online at http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org, was released at the APHA meeting in Washington, D.C. on November 8....

The U.S. infant mortality rate is about double the rate found in Hong Kong (3.1) and Japan (3.4), according to "America’s Health." Those numbers were drawn from a 1999 report from the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In that NCHS survey, the U.S. ranked 28th among 37 nations.

Full link: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/now/dec10/apha_infant.html

[Spazito]

6. Here are some links that might help

The Canadian Cure

http://www.newrules.org/journal/nrwin01health.html

This is an article that lays it out quite well.

Here is the link to the Canadian Government information on our Healthcare system:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/care/index.html

[Finder]

7. I support universal healthcare...

but some of the charges she made are true, albeit not for the reasons stated.

Point 1 and 2: We have a great healthcare system (teaching hospitala)because we hire the best and brightest from around the world.

Point 3: Unfortunately this is true, but the major complaint about waiting months to get an appointment is no different than here under our system. Most people I have talked to that use a national system also a private one. The system we have in place in the US now with HMOs(rationed healhcare at its worse) is exactly like the ones in most countries with universal healthcare.

Point 4: This is also true(the first part)in most areas. For specialized care there are Shriner's hospitals and centers as well. Although the reasons stated are a factor in some cases, the gov is to blame as well--allowing pollution, bizarre health mandates, water quality, corporate back scratching, etc.

Point 5: Medicare is run more like a corporate program than a government one. There is no reason other than greed to explain the problem. The VA has a great pharm program for example. Medicare should as well.

Our healthcare system is most brutal to low income, middle class. We have a bunch of legacy physicians who couldn't recite the oath if you paid them.(think Frist)

In order to attend med school, you have to be rich or become a whore to the pharm industry.

I think Cuba has a great program that we could use as a model. Those with a calling regardless of whether their daddy was a doc or owned a pharm corp should be able to become doctors. Many would pay off the debt by working in health centers and hospitals at a rate the government could afford so that every single person can receive quality healthcare.

[leesa]

10. #1 and 2 are no longer true. We are losing applicants continuously

We simply do not have good healthcare system. Check out WHO rankings and I think you will be horrified.

[Spazito]

11. Your #3 is incorrect as it relates to Canada

"Point 3: Unfortunately this is true, but the major complaint about waiting months to get an appointment is no different than here under our system. Most people I have talked to that use a national system also a private one. The system we have in place in the US now with HMOs(rationed healhcare at its worse) is exactly like the ones in most countries with universal healthcare."


We do not have anything equivalent to HMOs which is why our costs are much lower than the US. There is no middle man to pay.

Here are some facts:

"As a result, Canada's version of national public health insurance is characterized by local control, doctor autonomy and consumer choice. Ironically, with the increasing dominance of HMOs and the increasing complexity of rules covering federal medical payments, the United States health system is quickly becoming characterized by absentee ownership, centralized control, little consumer choice and doctors who must ask bureaucrats permission to dispense medical care and advice."

"The key to the Canadian system is that there is only one insurer - the government. Doctors generally work on a fee-for-service basis, as they do in the U.S., but instead of sending the bill to one of hundreds of insurance companies, they send it to their provincial government. In both countries there is a continual tug over the dollar between health care providers and insurers. The difference is that in Canada the insurance company is owned not by shareholders, but by the taxpayers - who, as one analyst explains, must constantly balance "their desire for more and better service against their collective ability to pay for it."


and on expenditures as a precentage of GDP comparisons:

The statistics paint a starkly different picture. In 1971, the year that all ten provinces adopted universal hospital and medical insurance programs, Canadian health care costs consumed 7.4 percent of national income in Canada, compared to 7.6 percent in the United States. In the thirty years since, however, Americans' health care expenditures as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) have nearly doubled - to 14 percent - while Canadians' have remained relatively stable, increasing only to about 9 percent. And despite its high cost, the U.S. system fails to insure more than 44 million of its citizens. Some analysts predict that figure will grow to 60 million by 2008.

The above quotes are taken from this article:

http://www.newrules.org/journal/nrwin01health.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. Back in 2000, the World Health Organization ranked 191 countries

for their health systems. France came first; the USA 37th. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050417/OPINION03/504170304/1035/opinion

Advances in medicine typically come from government-backed research programs - the National Institutes of Health.

Health care gets rationed everywhere. Socialized systems ration according to need, so critical need normally gets prioritized; private systems depend much more on ability to pay. What socialized medicine isn't so good at delivering is non-critical care.

45 million uninsured people still sounds like a problem to me, though I can't say what the reasons are for all of them.

Medicare is more efficient than private insurers:

According to the World Health Organization, in the United States administrative expenses eat up about 15 percent of the money paid in premiums to private health insurance companies, but only 4 percent of the budgets of public insurance programs, which consist mainly of Medicare and Medicaid. The numbers for both public and private insurance are similar in other countries - but because we rely much more heavily than anyone else on private insurance, our total administrative costs are much higher.

According to the health organization, the higher costs of private insurers are "mainly due to the extensive bureaucracy required to assess risk, rate premiums, design benefit packages and review, pay or refuse claims." Public insurance plans have far less bureaucracy because they don't try to screen out high-risk clients or charge them higher fees.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles_2005/krugman_health_insurance.php

[leesa]

9. I believe we are ranked about 35th in the world in health care

by the WHO. Our health care system is in terrible shape. MediCare is run far more efficiently than private insurance. You get far more for your dollar. There was an article here recently that also pointed out that we are already paying more for public healthcare (for which we get nothing) than those countries with public health care for all. On top of that we have to pay two or three times more for our private insurance.

Your friend is very misinformed.