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Does a hospital (Johns Hopkins comes to mind) demand 20% upfront

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:12 PM
Original message
Does a hospital (Johns Hopkins comes to mind) demand 20% upfront
from patients with 'traditional' 80-20 insurance? When we used to have this kind of insurance, we were never asked for a PENNY before surgeries for our son. We did struggle mightily afterward to pay the 20% share that was ours to pay, but they NEVER EVER asked for it upfront..

Is it common these days to pay that ahead of the procedure?> No wonder people are delaying treatment if this is the "new normal"..


If a procedure's cost is known beforehand, and they know that insurance is covering 80%, why WOULD they even doubt that people would pay their share? Is it common practice for people to just not pay their 20%?

Hospitals routinely charge 'extra' just to cover these types of things, so why all the pressure?

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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually, I did have to put thousands down.
And I did have 80-20.

I put $2,500 down, on a procedure as to which I was billed about $10,000 by the hospital. That would be 25%.

Just my experience.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Wow... I was oblivious to the changes..
What if you had no credit cards and did not have the cash? Would they have made you wait until it was an emergency?
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Our 'prestigious' Vanderbilt Hosp. wants a $300.00 evergency room fee
up front. Keeping the poor and slackards out.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe they are afraid that people will declare bankruptcy
and not pay the bill.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nowadays they put up the sign "Payment due at time of service"
and they mean it.

How far we've gone from the days when people used to support a community doctor however they could, and it would have been unethical for a doctor not to treat the poor.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. I had major surgery last year
but I don't think I put down 20% up front but I was liable for 30% of the overall charges. So I still have about $1600 to pay the hospital. I have worked out a plan with them and I am paying on that. They have been quite easy to work with; however, I have no good feelings for the insurance company that charges my family almost $500.00 a month in premiums and still makes me pay 30% of all surgeries.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. My brother had no insurance
and was admitted, spent 1 and 1/2 months in the hospital. A full month of that was in the ICU. They knew from the beginning that he had no insurance and that his estate after his death would likely not cover all the costs.

This must be new.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Johns Hopkins is not just "any" hospital.
M D Anderson, also one of the country's best cancer hospitals, offers free care to indigent Texas residents. (Of course, many of them lack the "standard" medical care that allows for early diagnosis--a big plus in cancer treatment.)

Most of the patients get their HMO's or other gangs of crooks to pay up--finally. And some patients come from around the world--with cash in hand. (Although some countries pay for their citizens to be treated.)

So--there's some care for people with no money. But "the best" care is not available to everybody.

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valis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Aren there any laws giving priority to US citizens compared to foreigners?
When it comes to health care?...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. If you have the money, they don't care where you live
Edited on Mon May-09-05 12:53 PM by SoCalDem
Just the same for college entrance:(

One time our son was hospitalized, there was a suite of rooms on the floor with a 24 hr guard posted by the door.. A child from a middle eastern "royal family" ....

Mayo Clinic (where our son was always treated) was like the UN..
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valis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I think that ought to change. Say, foreigners with money should be charged
a lot and the funds used to help out US citizens. And foreigners without money, of course, should not be taken. Don't mean to sound xenophobic, I'm not. I'm just saying that is the son of a rich Saudi wants to get cured in the US they should charge a shitload of money, I mean millions of dollars.
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yvr girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. What about foreigners without money
Numerous conjoined twins come to mind.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Conjoined twins are rare....
And surgical teams that can handle the situation are few & far between. I say treat them.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. The Saudi Arabian government pays for all their citizens.
Not all of them are rich. But their government is; if treatment outside SA is needed, the government pays.

Why should people pay MORE just because they are from another country?



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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. U.S. citizens are increasingly going overseas
for vastly less expensive procedures.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. No.
As mentioned, indigents living in Texas can get care for free.

Otherwise, you pay. Whether your insurance company pays or you do, it doesn't matter where you live.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. I've had to pay my deductible and 10% up front recently.
My insurance was 90/10. They wound up owing me money because the '10%'
came out to be much less.
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brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Twice...
in the past ten months I have had to have outpatient surgery and had to pay in advance.


It's going to take me nearly 3 years to repay the bank loan. That is, if nothing else clouds my 'health horizon'....which is laughable since I hit 72 in August.


Most of the time my attitude is to do what I can and the devil take the hindmost....but sometimes I can't help but feel some stress.

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jab105 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. When I broke my kneecap, I was arranging an appointment
with one of the best doctors in the area, to determine if I needed surgery...the receptionist took down my information, and when she got to asking about insurance, I said that I didn't have any, that I would be paying out of pocket.

Her direct quote to me from there was "I'M SORRY MA'AM, WE DO NOT ACCEPT PEOPLE WHO CAN'T PAY"!!

Now, mind you, I NEVER said that I couldn't pay, in fact, I said that I'd pay with cash...and I have perfect credit, and parents who would have helped if I needed it...but she would not even let me see THAT doctor, she said that I should go to the cheaper clinic downtown (which is where I went, $250 for 30 seconds-and he wouldnt answer a single one of my questions...they were so bad there, that my parents ended up driving me down to where they live and having me seen there by someone who had a clue to what they were doing...)

UGH!! It was a horrible experience, I was without healthcare for 5 years, and frankly, my experience from when I really needed care was that I was treated like shit...
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Samurai_Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. I had hernia surgery last year...
and yes, they did want the deductible and co-pay up front. This is standard practice, at least in Texas and Florida.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. It probably depends on the hospital
There are still some non-profit hospitals out there who aren't out to drain the patient of every financial resource. I'm fortunate to live in Austin where we have Seton hospitals.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. If you don't have insurance, you are asked for the money up
front before you see anybody. If you have some kind of insurance then they let you get your foot in the door. Often though lately, they have been asking for the deductible up front.

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Debbi801 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. With each of my kids, I had to pay any remaining deductible...
and the 20% by the 5th or 6th month of pregnancy.

Now, when I had a tumor removed from my abdomen last summer, the hospital did not require anything up front, just proof of insurance.

I think each hospital and each doctor makes its own decision.

Debbi
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. They are getting much tougher. They are losing a lot of money due to
the exploding state MediCaid/MediCal, whatever, and the fact that very few have insurance and what they have for insurance doesn't cover much of anything.
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. I had to pay a $350 deductible up front
at a County Hospital. When I got the bill later, they don't pay for anesthesia, plus I had to pay the additional 20%. This was for a fairly routine procedure in day surgery.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. They don't pay for anesthesia?????
What a CROCK !!!
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. They don't.
And neither does the dental insurance. It's considered a luxury. I think the hospital might under certain conditions. I know they don't in OB, or for procedures like colonoscopy.
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. Hospital Reimbursement is far more complex than it seems..
on first blush. In many cases it is rate based and there is no way to 'charge extra.'When you are hospitalized as a Medicare patient in any state in the country, at any hospital, the hospital gets a diagnosis-based rate of which there are around 700 diagnoses. If the case turns out to be excessively costly, and goes over a certain levl of cost, then the hospital may get some additional funds for the case. I'm making up the numbers, but let's say you have bypass surgery and the Medicare rate for that diagnosis in your region is $75,000, that is what the hospital gets paid. However, you are very likely to get a statement from Medicare which says it covered $250,000 in 'charges', which are the $2 aspirin charges you see on a bill. Medicare did not pay the $250,000 and the hospital writes off the difference as a contractual allowance. Medicaid works in a similar fashion, although how they pay varies by state. It could be set by diagnosis or it could be a per diem rate set by the state's Medicaid department. HMOs usually pay per day (per diem) rates.
In some states, the private insurers pay per day rates or they pay a percentage of charges. If you have full hospitalization coverage, even if the insurance company only pays 75% of the charges, the 25% doesn't get billed to you. Per day payment arrangements are much more common nowadays than payments based on charges.

In the hospitals where I worked, we would usually try to collect a patient's medicare deductible up front (that's a one time item) but that would not stop anyone from being admitted, if they didn't pay it. At least in NYC, most of our Medicare patients had secondary coverage thru a private insurer or Medicaid, so this affected few people. Pure fluff stuff like the extra charges for a private room, if not medically necessary, had to be paid in full up front.

We would also attempt to collect patient coinsurances upfront, but not paying them, unless it was a plan that basically paid the hospital nothing, would usually not stop a patient from being admitted. One of the reasons for that is that the insurance companies for years have perfected a divide and conquer technique between the hospital and the MD. For example, it wasn't that long ago that hospitals had HMO contracts which paid an amount per day, but didn't include the costs of specialty implants. So, you have a neurosurgeon who wants to put a $15,000 nerve stimulater into a patient with chronic pain with a hospitalization of 5 days. If the hospital got paid $1,000 a day, it would get $5,000 and have to eat the cost of the implant, to not tick off the neurosurgeon. Nowadays, more MDs realize the need for the hospitals to also be adequately reimbursed, because if they are not, the surgeon may get his fee, but conditions in the hospital become run down.

The one area where things become problemmatic is when people are uninsured. If you need an emergency admission, you get admitted, since that's the law and the hospital tries to collect later. If it is a purely elective procedure like plastic surgery, we would demand the full fee up-front. What we need with elective but medical admissions varied. Usually, an estimate would be worked up, and the patient would be asked to pay some amount of it upfront, usually 50%.
Andy's surgery actually falls into the elective category because even though he needs to have it to live, right now it is not an emergency in the sense of someone having been hit by a car. How the uninsured patients get charged is all over the place. Some states regulate the prices, some don't and some insist you use charges.

And there are a lot of people who go to private, non-profit hospital, who don't pay their balances due. NYS doles out hundreds of millions of dollars a year to partially compensate for those bad debts. Many of the people are uninsured who cannot pay, but then you also get people who probably could pay their coinsurance, but just don't. Unless it's a large amount of money involved, a hospital will send an account to a collection agency and you'll get calls & letters, but you won't necessarily be taken to court or reported to a credit agency, since that costs money too, and may not be worth it.

In NYS, where virtually all payment plans are rate based, usually the only way a hospital shows a profit is if it has healthy endowment income and gets a lot of donations. In other states, where payments were for years (and may still be) based on charges or a % of charges, hospitals are or at least were able to build up large investment balances and show profits.

I'm sure that Hopkins has programs for the indigent, and does accept Medicaid. I think the problem in Andy's case was that he is a self pay patient from Seattle. Generally, hospitals spend their indigent care funds on people from their own community.
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