Debating with a Moran...

[Maiden England]

So anyway, I post regularly on another site, not political, but it does have a debate/politics board. Usually very interesting as there are views from all sides represented.

Well, its not often I come across such a doozy, that in order to justify my present blood pressure I feel I have to share it with the DU. But today I did.

We were discussing the separation of Church and State, and whether or not the line is becoming blurred.
(note: italics denote where said moran is quoting previous posts)

Ladies and Gentlemen - I give you a proud Bush supporter...

For all of you that are always talking about our country becoming a theocracy, I have to ask, what religion is becoming the state religion? Until I see attending Mass, praying the rosary, attending Bible studies, having a Seder meal, or facing Mecca to pray five times a day become mandatory in this country, I am hard pressed to see a "theocracy" here!

Once again, I have to ask, what particular religion (is being forced on us )?? Our country was founded on a Judeo-Christian philosophy. That's what our laws and government are based on. And the belief in a Higher Power. NOt one particular denomination. And not atheism. But you have the right to be atheist here if that's what you wish.

Anyone care to guess what religion they might be?
Oh but they were just warming up. In response to my posting a discussion from www.au.org on the filibuster, it got worse...

quote:

Speaking to the Family Research Council in March, Frist ticked off a laundry list of items he is prepared to deliver to the Religious Right. “In this Congress,” he said, “we’re going to continue to work on issues that are important to you, to me, above all to America’s future. That includes good judges, the sanctity of marriage, and, I just mentioned, the culture of life, as well as protection for the unborn (quoting the au.org article I posted, which I didn't actually make a comment on)

These are good things. You and that article make it sound like these are subversive elements being introduced.

quote:

Saying "Liberal" like it's a bad word. Niiice.


Well, liberal used to have a positive meaning. Just like the Democratic party used to stand for good things. The operative phrase here is "used to".
Promoting religious intolerance, the culture of death, the breakdown of society....no, that isn't "nice".

:grr:

quote:

I'll assume that you know that Under God was tacked on to the pledge during the Red Scare to separate us from those godless commies



And I'll assume that you know that one of the Communist strategies is to abolish established religion and houses of worship.

:crazy:

And as a piece de resistance - look at what gets posted as an article. (In response to articles being posted from www.religioustolerance.org and www.au.org)

Why democracy
needs Christianity

Some Americans claim we should exclude Christian values from the public square. On the contrary, argues philosopher Jacques Maritain, good Christians make good citizens.

They live by gospel values: honesty, integrity, and compassion. They obey the law. They resist the selfishness that unbelief and materialism breed. And they subordinate their own interests to the common good.

No wonder, says Maritain, that American democracy — which arose from a Christian people — has served so well and lasted so long.

Here Maritain shows that in a society unleavened by religious ideals, an enduring democracy can never take root. And once a religious people abandons its faith, even the greatest democracy must wither and die. Untethered from transcendent values, democracy becomes little more than a struggle to be won by the most powerful and the ruthless.

The hour is late. Too long have we stood by while politicians promise never to let their religious beliefs influence their political judgments. Too long has a false understanding of democracy cowed us into laying aside our Christian values when we vote.

As Maritain demonstrates in these lucid pages, Christians are vital to democracy. Good Christians make good citizens, and good citizens make strong democracies. If America and her ideals are to endure, says Maritain, Christians and their values must not be excluded from public discourse, but eagerly welcomed into it.
Christianity, Democracy,
and the American Ideal
A Jacques Maritain Reader
by Jacques Maritain
Compiled & Edited by James Kelly

160 pp paperback


Jacques Maritain (1882-1973) taught philosophy in Europe and America, served as French ambassador to the Vatican, and wrote numerous books on the dignity of the person and on the relation of Christianity and democracy.

(edited to correct html errors - caused by the headache the moran gave me...)

[Dr Ron]

1. Problems short of a theocracy

True we do not have a theocracy which mandates prayer, etc. That does not mean we do not have serious problems stemming from the breakdown of separation of church and state.

We have schools being presured to teach aspects of biology, physicics, and geology because they contradict the bible. We have pharmacists feeling enpowered to refuse to dispense prescriptions. We have restrictions on a woman's control of her body. We have restrictions on gay rights.

[KissMyAsscroft]

2. It's more black and white thinking....

They think that until the pot boils over that the water isn't hot.

[Dr Ron]

5. Or like being a little bit pregnant n/t

[blogbear]

3. As if that isn't enough we have too many self appointed clerics

running around spreading their unrequested and overly vague "value" judgements..I fail to see where being allowed freedom of religion allows 'believers' to brow beat others on the subject especialy since having all the faith in the world in a particar belief does not proove that belief to be correct..Where do these people get off about knowing what is 'good' or 'essential' for everyone?

[georgia10]

4. America is not a Christian Nation

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"- US Treaty with Tripoli, 1797 (Treaties are US law). That treaty was signed by JOHN ADAMS.

Additionally, google "founding fathers" and "deists" and you'll see that the US was in NO way founded upon Christianity; they hated the church.

[Dr Ron]

6. Some were also Christian

And they were strong supporters of separation of church and state, understanding the importance of this to guaranteeing they could always practice there religious beliefs regardless of the current political atmosphere.

[The Doctor.]

7. Got kicked off a board full of morons for no other reason

Than they didn't like that I posted here.
I wasn't very flattering of them when I posted here - ususally it was to vent like you have about the sheer idiocy of some of them.
A couple of times I referenced their site to show that not all 'conservatives' are idiots.

I never broke rules on their board, but they found I posted here under the same name (yeah- I could've picked another) and banned me for it.

By and large they were ignorant and rather than actually debate me they tried to label me instead... because if they believed I was a 'liberal' then they could ignore me. There were a few logical and reasonable ones, but most of them listen to Rush and believe Global Warming is a hoax.

Yep - ignorant.

I been there.

[mmonk]

8. Here's the problem

We have separation of church and state implied and the exclusionary wording "NO laws" and so when someone pushes the issue, any judgement upholding this part of the constitution is seen by the religious as an "attack" on religion. This is due in large part by politicians who support certain things the religious right wants exploiting the decision of the courts with victimization rhetoric when courts uphold the constitution. We are a secular nation with predominately christian inhabitants but not a christian nation.

[BillZBubb]

9. Loads of bullshit.

The biggest crock: "Our country was founded on a Judeo-Christian philosophy" This is a right wingnut, fundy lie that gets propagated all the time.

The fact is the philosophical model for our nation came primarily from PAGAN Rome and Athens. The Roman Republic was the most admired political model by the founders. There was no Christian or Jewish model of government used. Those states were all aristocracies.

Our leaders and our sovereignty derived SOLELY FROM THE PEOPLE, not God. That's what made our Republic unique. Until now anyway.

[Maiden England]

12. I call them on that all the time

Its my biggest beef, it comes mostly from the wingnuts, and I'm not having some so-called xtian biggot allege that the laws are based on a jewish view of life in some half assed vain attempt to make their longing for a xtian theocracy seem more legit.

[BamaLefty]

10. What Forum Is This?

I debate RW morans all the time on forums.

[Maiden England]

11. its actually a site mainly devoted to fertility issues

and you get a good mix of people on there, though most of the ones on the debates board are usually good liberal types, probably since the repukes don't have an awful lot to back their viewpoints with and can't argue even remotely on the same level as 'us'.
We do get some really great debaters on there, and unfortunately our fair share of complete plonkers!

[BamaLefty]

13. Gotcha

[BiggJawn]

14. Why do we even bother?

Hitler was a "Good Christian". (He sure the fuck wasn't an Atheist, check it out yourself!)

"They live by gospel values: honesty, integrity, and compassion. They obey the law. They resist the selfishness that unbelief and materialism breed. And they subordinate their own interests to the common good."

Doesn't Newt Gingrich claim to be a Christian? Has he dumped the wife he dumped his cancer-suffering wife for yet?

Weren't Timmy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph "Good Christians" who obeyed the Law?

Every fucking preacher you see on TV has a BUTTLOAD of money. Oh, yeah, I forgot, "I'm just a POOR preacher, this all belongs to GAWD!" S'Yeah, sure it does...And He gives you a HUGE stipend so you eat good while you're tooling around in "His" Rolls-Royce, don't He?

Our Laws were based on Judeo-Christianity?
Please show me in the USC the Laws that were taken from the first four "Commandments"? Especially the laws about "keeping the Sabbath Holy". I take it Pro Football is a Sacrament?

[evlbstrd]

15. Damn right it is!

Go Chiefs!